Re: Rangate 300 Lift Cart
Hi Dan:
I think that¡¯s a good looking purchase. I¡¯m assuming it is significantly less expensive than the FAT alternative? I don¡¯t know why the FATs (and similar) are so expensive. They are not particularly heavily built and the hydraulics are commonly
available.?
I have two FAT 300s. I¡¯m happy with them. But neither were good enough to yield a flat working surface. I made a 30mm timber top for one (shimmed for flat) and a full torsion box style top for the other. As Brian said, make a top and shim it
for full, flat support.?
I assume you¡¯ll ditch the handle? If the hand grip is used to lower the cart, I¡¯d just mount it under the new top so it is out of the way. I do like having braking on all four corners. But casters are cheap so you can replace them if need be.?
Unless there¡¯s something seriously wrong with the cart mechanism, or size, or something that cannot be changed, I¡¯d advocate for keeping it, making a flat top for it, and getting it into use!
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I¡¯m not sure any welded up steel top cart like that is ever going to be ¡°flat¡± enough for what you are wanting. You can mount a another top on it and shim it at the mounting points to get it as flat as you want.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
On Jul 21, 2023, at 2:01 PM, Dan Gavrilyuk <dgwoodco@...> wrote:
Recent discussions prompted me to seriously consider upgrading my current fixed height workbench with a lift table. I ordered a Jet SLT-1100 lift table from Home Depot, this one comes with a 31.5x63 surface. This size and weight is roughly equivalent
to the fat 500s table. I had high hopes but those turned out to be a disappointment, the cart is not a viable option for any accurate (flat, no twist) workbench use. ?Attached are pics showing a severe twist in the top and about a 3/16 cup in the middle. The
bow was likely formed from warping at the welding stage and overall insufficient support. Any thoughts or ideas on how to fix this to create a flat and cools at work surface for a torsion box style top? I think it may not be worth the effort and just send
it back and cough up the money for a 500s.?
I will say the packaging was pretty secure, it came in a fully boxes plywood crate. That¡¯s more than a 20k felder saw with 2x4s and plastic wrap.?
<image0.jpeg><image1.jpeg><image2.jpeg><image3.jpeg><image4.jpeg>
On Jul 14, 2023, at 5:36 PM, Larry Long Neck <longneckwood@...> wrote:
?I noticed at the bottom of Felder's promo email for AWFS that they have a raffle for a "lift table" at the end of the month if you visit their booth. I assume this means a FAT 300, if anyone is going and wants one :)
--
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
|
I have a new PTE 10 it¡¯s obnoxious but it¡¯s outside. I personally wouldn¡¯t want to listen to it all day Tolve construction
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 21, 2023, at 1:22 PM, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
?
I also have two blue and one white ( about 5 years old ) 10-30 hp units and the buzzing sound isn't loud enough to remind me they are on.? When I do hear them I get hungry for bacon.
The newer ones must be worse although my wife claims I'm deaf.? Dave
Ed. I¡¯m a bit surprised you didn¡¯t get stellar sales support when you called PP. ?Every encounter I¡¯ve had with them has been superb. ?
When I moved my shop from SFO to Portland, my PP took a 10-foot dive off the top of my forklift and landed upside down on my ShopCart panel cart. ?It bashed the crap out of the PP (the ShopCart did fine). ? ?I called PP and they asked me to send them some
photos, which I did, and then said ¡°send it to us, we¡¯ll fix it.¡± ? Looking inside, the main large printed circuit board was bent and cracked in the middle ?and the case was completely trashed. ? Photos:
The repaired unit came back within a week and cost all of $512 plus shipping ($240). ? Great service. ?That was in 2011, and it¡¯s been working fine since. ?PP has certainly grown a lot since then, and I¡¯m guessing the new sales guy doesn¡¯t have the same
customer dedication as the original founders. ? FYI, I do not have the noise issue others complain about. ?
Sorry if I confused you with the different wire specs on my drawing. ?I¡¯ve wired up so many shops now that keeping all the variations straight is taxing my small brain. ?Here¡¯s a photo of my wiring cart when I did the current shop.
<Electrical Cart - 1.jpeg>
In my current shop I have 1¡± EMT but I¡¯m running the 3-phase and two single-phase circuits in the same pipe. ?It¡¯s significantly more difficult to work with than 3/4¡± EMT - bending-wise that is. ?In other shops I have used 3/4¡± EMT which is sufficient
for four #6 THHN conductors. ?The wire size on my previously posted diagram is correct with respect to my current shop: ?#4 from sub panel to the PP, #6 throughout the shop, and #8 from the distribution blocks to the individual sockets for each machine. ?It¡¯s
overkill. ?I¡¯ve always considered disconnects at the machine only important if the machine is hard wired to the J-box - if the machine has a cord with a plug/socket at the mains connection, and disconnect is superfluous. Here is a photo of the enclosure containing
one of the distribution blocks mounted to the ceiling:
It would be difficult to access this to take photos of the inside, but it¡¯s nothing complex. ?Here¡¯s a video about the distribution blocks: ?.
? During installation, I pull all the wiring first, daisy-chaining from box to box leaving about 12¡± pigtails hanging loose, then attach the incoming #6 and outgoing #8 THHN wires to the distribution block first, then install the block to the back of the enclosure
with self-drilling sheet metal screws, then add the cover panel. ? It¡¯s much easier to make the #6 wire connections to the distribution blocks before the blocks are screwed to the back of the relatively tiny enclosure. ?
This photo is my current basement shop showing the main 200 Amp breaker panel on the left, and the 100 Amp sub-panel I added to the right of it, and the PP below. ?The black and orange Romex cables are a later 30 Amp 220VAC additions to support my welder
and mill/lathe, otherwise all the shop circuits are in EMT.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
David, thanks for the detailed specs on the components you used. Seeing that you didn¡¯t use a breaker anywhere on the output side makes me wonder if our local code would approve it as well. Do you have any photos to share of the mounted PP and possibly
one of the distribution boxes? Sometimes seeing the finished job fills in the nuances that I may miss while planning. FYI, your diagram shows #4-6 wire, but your description says #6-8. I¡¯m thinking 6-8 is correct?
The PT series only has a 10 and 20HP version now. So I¡¯m going to have to think hard about what I realistically might add in the future. I have no doubts the 10HP would run the 45z shaper with ease.
|
Re: Rangate 300 Lift Cart
I¡¯m not sure any welded up steel top cart like that is ever going to be ¡°flat¡± enough for what you are wanting. You can mount a another top on it and shim it at the mounting points to get it as flat as you want.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 21, 2023, at 2:01 PM, Dan Gavrilyuk <dgwoodco@...> wrote:
Recent discussions prompted me to seriously consider upgrading my current fixed height workbench with a lift table. I ordered a Jet SLT-1100 lift table from Home Depot, this one comes with a 31.5x63 surface. This size and weight is roughly equivalent to the fat 500s table. I had high hopes but those turned out to be a disappointment, the cart is not a viable option for any accurate (flat, no twist) workbench use. ?Attached are pics showing a severe twist in the top and about a 3/16 cup in the middle. The bow was likely formed from warping at the welding stage and overall insufficient support. Any thoughts or ideas on how to fix this to create a flat and cools at work surface for a torsion box style top? I think it may not be worth the effort and just send it back and cough up the money for a 500s.?
I will say the packaging was pretty secure, it came in a fully boxes plywood crate. That¡¯s more than a 20k felder saw with 2x4s and plastic wrap.? <image0.jpeg><image1.jpeg><image2.jpeg><image3.jpeg><image4.jpeg>
On Jul 14, 2023, at 5:36 PM, Larry Long Neck <longneckwood@...> wrote:
?I noticed at the bottom of Felder's promo email for AWFS that they have a raffle for a "lift table" at the end of the month if you visit their booth. I assume this means a FAT 300, if anyone is going and wants one :)
--
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
|
File /Manuals & Drawings/Important Machine Set-Up K700-series Saws.pdf uploaded
#file-notice
The following files and folders have been uploaded to the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Rob Pritchard <bobbydazzler2248@...>
Description:
Felder set-up instructions for 700 series machines and references to Felder YouTube videos
|
Re: Rangate 300 Lift Cart
Recent discussions prompted me to seriously consider upgrading my current fixed height workbench with a lift table. I ordered a Jet SLT-1100 lift table from Home Depot, this one comes with a 31.5x63 surface. This size and weight is roughly equivalent to the fat 500s table. I had high hopes but those turned out to be a disappointment, the cart is not a viable option for any accurate (flat, no twist) workbench use. ?Attached are pics showing a severe twist in the top and about a 3/16 cup in the middle. The bow was likely formed from warping at the welding stage and overall insufficient support. Any thoughts or ideas on how to fix this to create a flat and cools at work surface for a torsion box style top? I think it may not be worth the effort and just send it back and cough up the money for a 500s.?
I will say the packaging was pretty secure, it came in a fully boxes plywood crate. That¡¯s more than a 20k felder saw with 2x4s and plastic wrap.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 14, 2023, at 5:36 PM, Larry Long Neck <longneckwood@...> wrote:
?I noticed at the bottom of Felder's promo email for AWFS that they have a raffle for a "lift table" at the end of the month if you visit their booth. I assume this means a FAT 300, if anyone is going and wants one :)
--
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
|
Hi, I use 3mm for the operator end and 3.1 for the outfeed end.
That often results in good toe out that doesn¡¯t require re-adjustment.
Regards, Rod
|
I also have two blue and one white ( about 5 years old ) 10-30 hp units and the buzzing sound isn't loud enough to remind me they are on.? When I do hear them I get hungry for bacon.
The newer ones must be worse although my wife claims I'm deaf.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Ed. I¡¯m a bit surprised you didn¡¯t get stellar sales support when you called PP. ?Every encounter I¡¯ve had with them has been superb. ?
When I moved my shop from SFO to Portland, my PP took a 10-foot dive off the top of my forklift and landed upside down on my ShopCart panel cart. ?It bashed the crap out of the PP (the ShopCart did fine). ? ?I called PP and they asked me to send them some
photos, which I did, and then said ¡°send it to us, we¡¯ll fix it.¡± ? Looking inside, the main large printed circuit board was bent and cracked in the middle ?and the case was completely trashed. ? Photos:
The repaired unit came back within a week and cost all of $512 plus shipping ($240). ? Great service. ?That was in 2011, and it¡¯s been working fine since. ?PP has certainly grown a lot since then, and I¡¯m guessing the new sales guy doesn¡¯t have the same
customer dedication as the original founders. ? FYI, I do not have the noise issue others complain about. ?
Sorry if I confused you with the different wire specs on my drawing. ?I¡¯ve wired up so many shops now that keeping all the variations straight is taxing my small brain. ?Here¡¯s a photo of my wiring cart when I did the current shop.
In my current shop I have 1¡± EMT but I¡¯m running the 3-phase and two single-phase circuits in the same pipe. ?It¡¯s significantly more difficult to work with than 3/4¡± EMT - bending-wise that is. ?In other shops I have used 3/4¡± EMT which is sufficient
for four #6 THHN conductors. ?The wire size on my previously posted diagram is correct with respect to my current shop: ?#4 from sub panel to the PP, #6 throughout the shop, and #8 from the distribution blocks to the individual sockets for each machine. ?It¡¯s
overkill. ?I¡¯ve always considered disconnects at the machine only important if the machine is hard wired to the J-box - if the machine has a cord with a plug/socket at the mains connection, and disconnect is superfluous. Here is a photo of the enclosure containing
one of the distribution blocks mounted to the ceiling:
It would be difficult to access this to take photos of the inside, but it¡¯s nothing complex. ?Here¡¯s a video about the distribution blocks: ?.
? During installation, I pull all the wiring first, daisy-chaining from box to box leaving about 12¡± pigtails hanging loose, then attach the incoming #6 and outgoing #8 THHN wires to the distribution block first, then install the block to the back of the enclosure
with self-drilling sheet metal screws, then add the cover panel. ? It¡¯s much easier to make the #6 wire connections to the distribution blocks before the blocks are screwed to the back of the relatively tiny enclosure. ?
This photo is my current basement shop showing the main 200 Amp breaker panel on the left, and the 100 Amp sub-panel I added to the right of it, and the PP below. ?The black and orange Romex cables are a later 30 Amp 220VAC additions to support my welder
and mill/lathe, otherwise all the shop circuits are in EMT.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
David, thanks for the detailed specs on the components you used. Seeing that you didn¡¯t use a breaker anywhere on the output side makes me wonder if our local code would approve it as well. Do you have any photos to share of the mounted PP and possibly
one of the distribution boxes? Sometimes seeing the finished job fills in the nuances that I may miss while planning. FYI, your diagram shows #4-6 wire, but your description says #6-8. I¡¯m thinking 6-8 is correct?
The PT series only has a 10 and 20HP version now. So I¡¯m going to have to think hard about what I realistically might add in the future. I have no doubts the 10HP would run the 45z shaper with ease.
|
Ed. I¡¯m a bit surprised you didn¡¯t get stellar sales support when you called PP. ?Every encounter I¡¯ve had with them has been superb. ? When I moved my shop from SFO to Portland, my PP took a 10-foot dive off the top of my forklift and landed upside down on my ShopCart panel cart. ?It bashed the crap out of the PP (the ShopCart did fine). ? ?I called PP and they asked me to send them some photos, which I did, and then said ¡°send it to us, we¡¯ll fix it.¡± ? Looking inside, the main large printed circuit board was bent and cracked in the middle ?and the case was completely trashed. ? Photos:
The repaired unit came back within a week and cost all of $512 plus shipping ($240). ? Great service. ?That was in 2011, and it¡¯s been working fine since. ?PP has certainly grown a lot since then, and I¡¯m guessing the new sales guy doesn¡¯t have the same customer dedication as the original founders. ? FYI, I do not have the noise issue others complain about. ?
Sorry if I confused you with the different wire specs on my drawing. ?I¡¯ve wired up so many shops now that keeping all the variations straight is taxing my small brain. ?Here¡¯s a photo of my wiring cart when I did the current shop.
In my current shop I have 1¡± EMT but I¡¯m running the 3-phase and two single-phase circuits in the same pipe. ?It¡¯s significantly more difficult to work with than 3/4¡± EMT - bending-wise that is. ?In other shops I have used 3/4¡± EMT which is sufficient for four #6 THHN conductors. ?The wire size on my previously posted diagram is correct with respect to my current shop: ?#4 from sub panel to the PP, #6 throughout the shop, and #8 from the distribution blocks to the individual sockets for each machine. ?It¡¯s overkill. ?I¡¯ve always considered disconnects at the machine only important if the machine is hard wired to the J-box - if the machine has a cord with a plug/socket at the mains connection, and disconnect is superfluous. Here is a photo of the enclosure containing one of the distribution blocks mounted to the ceiling:
It would be difficult to access this to take photos of the inside, but it¡¯s nothing complex. ?Here¡¯s a video about the distribution blocks: ?. ? During installation, I pull all the wiring first, daisy-chaining from box to box leaving about 12¡± pigtails hanging loose, then attach the incoming #6 and outgoing #8 THHN wires to the distribution block first, then install the block to the back of the enclosure with self-drilling sheet metal screws, then add the cover panel. ? It¡¯s much easier to make the #6 wire connections to the distribution blocks before the blocks are screwed to the back of the relatively tiny enclosure. ?
This photo is my current basement shop showing the main 200 Amp breaker panel on the left, and the 100 Amp sub-panel I added to the right of it, and the PP below. ?The black and orange Romex cables are a later 30 Amp 220VAC additions to support my welder and mill/lathe, otherwise all the shop circuits are in EMT.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
David, thanks for the detailed specs on the components you used. Seeing that you didn¡¯t use a breaker anywhere on the output side makes me wonder if our local code would approve it as well. Do you have any photos to share of the mounted PP and possibly one of the distribution boxes? Sometimes seeing the finished job fills in the nuances that I may miss while planning. FYI, your diagram shows #4-6 wire, but your description says #6-8. I¡¯m thinking 6-8 is correct?
The PT series only has a 10 and 20HP version now. So I¡¯m going to have to think hard about what I realistically might add in the future. I have no doubts the 10HP would run the 45z shaper with ease.
|
I hope the new toroid quiet design is out by the time I'm ready to purchase next year!
--
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
|
Regarding the comment " ...PT series only has a 10 and 20HP version now". The QT option is only available in the Performance series PT010, PT020 and PT030 models.? I only found out about this option after extensive discussion with their technical service department.? He finally revealed that they had a "QT" option when I was grilling them about the buzzing noise.?? The sales reps don't have a good understanding about this level of detail and didn't help at all with regards to how much noise the PP generates.? They pretty much just regurgitated the manual saying that the unit had a 75 decibel noise level (which is true only when the fans are running, but even they didn't realize that). The Performance series does NOT have a 15HP 230V model.? If you want a 15HP 230V model, you are limited to the mid level "Enterprise" series (i.e. PTE015).? It is my assumption that the QT option is not available on the "Enterprise" series because there is no space in the cabinet to add another inductor.? Picture example is here:  The Performance series has a much larger case and has room in the back section to add an inductor.? It is also rated for higher operating temperatures because the completely separate back section is a heat-sinked forced air cooling section (122 deg vs 104 deg for Enterprise).? The mid level Enterprise does have air cooling, but it's more of a recirculating air movement system, since all the components are shoe-horned into a single case area.
|
Just got off the phone and the service disconnect switch doesn¡¯t damage anything by shutting it off when it is running.?
interestingly they are modifying the design to some sort of ¡°toroid¡± design which will make it far quieter and will be phasing out the quiet option. Still waiting to hear back about installing the quiet option in the field or if it has to be sent back.?
edit: you cannot install quiet option once it is shipped.?
|
I also ordered the on/off switch and now only use the shut off switch which disconnects it from power because of the run time meter. Its good to hear that it doesnt affect it but I remember the day I left it on overnight and my horror when I saw it climb from 1.5 to 18 hours the next day. ?
I should ask if the terminal disconnect is bad for the PP, I sometimes use it instead of turning the machines off individually for convenience. Also on my martin tablesaw it coasts down instead of activating the brake which would make the brake last longer when I dont need it to stop quickly .?
|
I have the 20 HP PP Enterprise. Sales rep did not tell me about the $430 quiet option. The unit does make an annoying noise. I ordered the auxiliary on/off switch, which is very convenient. The unit is silent and voltages on all three phases are cut when the switch is in the standby/off state, so there is no need to shut off the 125A breaker when the unit is not in use. The display on the PP remains active when the the switch is in the standby/off state. Annoying, the run time indicator keeps incrementing when the switch is off, so that the unit shows thousands of hours of "run time", when the actual on-state operating time is only a few hours. PP tech support said it is not possible to reconfigure the run time indicator to show only on-state operating time.? ?I was also told that no harm is done to the unit if it is cycled on and off with the auxiliary switch, so I only turn on the PP when I am actually using the Minimax TW55 ES shaper or FS52 ES J/P. This avoids much of the noise problem, since the PP noise is not as loud as the dust collection system.?
The PP also does not play well with some LED lighting (my LED shop lights are not affected). PP tech support provided information on a few possible ways to overcome this problem, but I have not bothered to go on that snipe hunt since the machines are only operated intermittently.?
Don
|
You would need a 30A breaker/fusing (or smaller) on 30A receptacle to meet code around here¡I¡¯m used to industrial equipment wiring and would most likely fuse.?
You¡¯re likely not going to catch anything on fire due to design margins, but it¡¯s not a good idea to do stuff like that.?
James
I'm a bit confused about receptacle sizing. The 10hp PP says max output of 36A. Using 30 amp receptacles without a 30amp breaker between the load and the PP has potential for the receptacle (and wiring sized for 30A) to overheat and catch fire right? Since the PP can do 36A continuous out, and an 80A single phase breaker can feed that into the PP without tripping (even a 70A breaker can support continuous 32A if my math is correct).
Am I wrong about something here?
--
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
|
I ordered it with the lever to shut it off. I use it frequently and wouldn¡¯t be without it. I also got the better surge protection, which oddly doesnt come installed and when I went to install it, using a torque wrench for the first time, I mistook ftlbs for inlbs and sheared the bastard off. They wanted me to pay another $350 at PP but I called the manufacturer and they took pity on me and sold it for just $90 which i believe is their cost.?
I ordered from PP directly. ?It was cheapest that way at the time which was about a year ago.
Given this is on a residential property, I could only increase my panel to 400 amps which is split 200 for the shop and 200 for the house (all electrical appliances). This limited me to the pt020, which basically limits me to my 25¡± grizzly widebelt with the DC running (nederman s1000p). Oddly the DC is overkill at my current shop (bought it when I had employees in an industrial warehouse) but I wouldnt downgrade it while upgrading a widebelt. As such I utilize the cnc and rotex combo with minimal disappointment. ?I don¡¯t do plywood stuff that would require a larger widebelt.?
|
Ed...I'm curious what you meant by "...PT series only has a 10 and 20HP version now". Their website shows that they have PT Performance models (what I have but didn't use to be called Performance) from 7.5 HP up to 75 HP in their 230V models.
|
An update. Thanks for your comments and ideas. After thinking through it, I concluded that I don't have either the skills or equipment to safely install the fan myself, even with a helper or two. I contacted Felder again to schedule a service call to do the repair. It will be a few weeks but once it's done I'll report back and describe how they go about it.?
|
If you have the amperage and money available, I'd look hard at the 20 hp unit.? A wide belt needs it and nice to not worry if the compressor kicks in when running a 10 hp motor.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Taylor, yes they sell a quieter version. It¡¯s a $430 option. The sales guy was all but useless. He never offered up the option and only confirmed it when I asked. If it weren¡¯t for the search feature here, I¡¯d never have known to ask. Did you happen to
get any discounted pricing? Also, how do you turn it off? With a breaker or the optional on/off switch.
David, thanks for the detailed specs on the components you used. Seeing that you didn¡¯t use a breaker anywhere on the output side makes me wonder if our local code would approve it as well. Do you have any photos to share of the mounted PP and possibly one
of the distribution boxes? Sometimes seeing the finished job fills in the nuances that I may miss while planning. FYI, your diagram shows #4-6 wire, but your description says #6-8. I¡¯m thinking 6-8 is correct?
The PT series only has a 10 and 20HP version now. So I¡¯m going to have to think hard about what I realistically might add in the future. I have no doubts the 10HP would run the 45z shaper with ease.
|
I'm a bit confused about receptacle sizing. The 10hp PP says max output of 36A. Using 30 amp receptacles without a 30amp breaker between the load and the PP has potential for the receptacle (and wiring sized for 30A) to overheat and catch fire right? Since the PP can do 36A continuous out, and an 80A single phase breaker can feed that into the PP without tripping (even a 70A breaker can support continuous 32A if my math is correct).
Am I wrong about something here?
--
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
|
Taylor, yes they sell a quieter version. It¡¯s a $430 option. The sales guy was all but useless. He never offered up the option and only confirmed it when I asked. If it weren¡¯t for the search feature here, I¡¯d never have known to ask. Did you happen to get any discounted pricing? Also, how do you turn it off? With a breaker or the optional on/off switch.
David, thanks for the detailed specs on the components you used. Seeing that you didn¡¯t use a breaker anywhere on the output side makes me wonder if our local code would approve it as well. Do you have any photos to share of the mounted PP and possibly one of the distribution boxes? Sometimes seeing the finished job fills in the nuances that I may miss while planning. FYI, your diagram shows #4-6 wire, but your description says #6-8. I¡¯m thinking 6-8 is correct?
The PT series only has a 10 and 20HP version now. So I¡¯m going to have to think hard about what I realistically might add in the future. I have no doubts the 10HP would run the 45z shaper with ease.
|
David Luckensmeyer
Dan Gavrilyuk
rodsheridan
David P. Best
Larry Long Neck
Larry