Re: KF700 S Keeps throwing scoring blade belt
Brian,
Thanks. Don¡¯t worry about a picture. I can see from the parts diagram for my c3-31 that one of the four pulleys is under spring tension. To install a new belt, I was instructed to lower the scoring unit to the lowest level to reduce the tension on this spring.
Steve
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Re: KF700 S Keeps throwing scoring blade belt
Steve,
If you have the parts list, post a picture, that should make it obvious what tightens the belt across the drive and driven pulleys. Here is a picture from the 700 series manual and you can see how the belt tracks around multiple pulleys. I'd go take a picture of mine, but it's well over 100? in the shop right now, so that's not happening...
Brian Lamb blamb11@... lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, June 26, 2024 at 04:42:13 PM MST, Steve Hubbard <hubbardsg@...> wrote:
Brian,
Always respect and appreciate your input.
I have no background in mechanics, so had to look up ¡°idler pulley¡±. I do not read German, so looking at the parts diagram am not sure which pulley on my c3-31 is the idler pulley. There is indeed spring tension on one of the pulleys.
The isolated worn area on the belt led me to conclude that the belt was not under tension. I suppose this worn area could also be the result of the belt slipping off of one of the four pulleys due to misalignment, as you mentioned in an earlier post.
Thanks,
Steve
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Re: KF700 S Keeps throwing scoring blade belt
Brian,
Always respect and appreciate your input.
I have no background in mechanics, so had to look up ¡°idler pulley¡±. I do not read German, so looking at the parts diagram am not sure which pulley on my c3-31 is the idler pulley. There is indeed spring tension on one of the pulleys.
The isolated worn area on the belt led me to conclude that the belt was not under tension. I suppose this worn area could also be the result of the belt slipping off of one of the four pulleys due to misalignment, as you mentioned in an earlier post.
Thanks,
Steve
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Re: KF700 S Keeps throwing scoring blade belt
I don't know the innards of the Hammer scoring situation, but on my older KF700 with the main motor driven scoring, the height of the blade has no bearing on the tightness of the belt. There is an idler pulley that adjusts the tension of the belt.
Brian Lamb blamb11@... lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, June 26, 2024 at 12:58:28 PM MST, Steve Hubbard <hubbardsg@...> wrote:
Ron,
The following is my conclusion after a similar experience.
My c3-31 was delivered in 2017. The scoring unit (not a separate motor) was used for several months building cabinets for the shop, then lowered. Several months, or maybe a couple of years, passed before an attempt was made to again use the scoring unit. The belt was found to be broken. During a call, the Felder tech suggested that I had left too much pressure on the belt, that is, I had not adequately lowered the scoring unit. A new belt was ordered and installed. After use, the unit was lowered more than previously. The next time the unit was put into play, the belt was again found to be broken. This time, a Felder tech suggested that I had not left enough pressure on the belt. Hmmmm. A new belt was installed. I cannot remember how much the unit was lowered after that use. Recently, I realized that the belt had fallen off the pulley. On examination, there was an area of thinning in one isolated area of the belt.
My conclusion is that the unit had been lowered too much, leaving slack in the belt, allowing the motor shaft to spin against the belt without turning the unit.
In the past, when a 300mm blade was in use on the c3-31, the scoring blade was removed. When a 250mm blade was in use, the scoring blade was often left in place.
My plan for the future is to lower the unit enough to be out of the way, but not so much that the belt slips. There is a slit in my zero clearance insert for the scoring blade, so when that blade is in place, it is easy to visually see the depth to which the unit has been lowered. When the scoring blade is not in place, it is a challenge to know how much to lower the unit. In the future, when a 300mm blade is in place, I will attempt to identify the proper level for the scoring unit before replacing the zero clearance insert.
My questions for the group:
1. Does the above seem like a reasonable explanation for the broken belts?
`2. Should the blade of the scoring unit always be removed when not in use?
3. If the main saw blade is rotated by hand, and the shaft of the scoring unit spins, does this imply that pressure on the belt is adequate, or is it possible that the main motor shaft will spin with such speed and force that it will still slip on the belt?
4. To avoid all of the above, should the belt be removed when the scoring unit is not in play?
Thanks,
Steve Hubbard
Nashville, TN
? ?
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Re: KF700 S Keeps throwing scoring blade belt
Ron,
The following is my conclusion after a similar experience.
My c3-31 was delivered in 2017. The scoring unit (not a separate motor) was used for several months building cabinets for the shop, then lowered. Several months, or maybe a couple of years, passed before an attempt was made to again use the scoring unit. The belt was found to be broken. During a call, the Felder tech suggested that I had left too much pressure on the belt, that is, I had not adequately lowered the scoring unit. A new belt was ordered and installed. After use, the unit was lowered more than previously. The next time the unit was put into play, the belt was again found to be broken. This time, a Felder tech suggested that I had not left enough pressure on the belt. Hmmmm. A new belt was installed. I cannot remember how much the unit was lowered after that use. Recently, I realized that the belt had fallen off the pulley. On examination, there was an area of thinning in one isolated area of the belt.
My conclusion is that the unit had been lowered too much, leaving slack in the belt, allowing the motor shaft to spin against the belt without turning the unit.
In the past, when a 300mm blade was in use on the c3-31, the scoring blade was removed. When a 250mm blade was in use, the scoring blade was often left in place.
My plan for the future is to lower the unit enough to be out of the way, but not so much that the belt slips. There is a slit in my zero clearance insert for the scoring blade, so when that blade is in place, it is easy to visually see the depth to which the unit has been lowered. When the scoring blade is not in place, it is a challenge to know how much to lower the unit. In the future, when a 300mm blade is in place, I will attempt to identify the proper level for the scoring unit before replacing the zero clearance insert.
My questions for the group:
1. Does the above seem like a reasonable explanation for the broken belts?
`2. Should the blade of the scoring unit always be removed when not in use?
3. If the main saw blade is rotated by hand, and the shaft of the scoring unit spins, does this imply that pressure on the belt is adequate, or is it possible that the main motor shaft will spin with such speed and force that it will still slip on the belt?
4. To avoid all of the above, should the belt be removed when the scoring unit is not in play?
Thanks,
Steve Hubbard
Nashville, TN
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Maybe a good torque wrench for cutter inserts
When I was searching for a torque wrench to change the inserts on my cutter heads I was looking for something like this.
Its adjustable from 2 to 9 nm.
Joe
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Re: Ripping 1.6mm aluminium extrusion on a kf700.
The only thing I can say is make sure you use proper lubricant and damn good clamps. Make sure use -0 to negative rake on your carbide saw blade. Mac,, Designing and building for 50 years
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On Jun 26, 2024, at 10:51?AM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?No problem cutting aluminum, will not harm the machine at all other than possibly the dust collection hoses. Hot aluminum chips will most likely melt the hoses, been there, done that. I've cut a lot of aluminum on my machine over the years, never an issue. I do generally disconnect the hose and then just vacuum out the inside of the machine when done.
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Re: Ripping 1.6mm aluminium extrusion on a kf700.
No problem cutting aluminum, will not harm the machine at all other than possibly the dust collection hoses. Hot aluminum chips will most likely melt the hoses, been there, done that. I've cut a lot of aluminum on my machine over the years, never an issue. I do generally disconnect the hose and then just vacuum out the inside of the machine when done.
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Re: KF700 S Keeps throwing scoring blade belt
If it is a new belt, you might be dealing with it stretching and then once loose it throws the belt. Best to check alignment of the pulleys as well. Is this machine using a separate motor to drive the scoring blade or run off the main motor?
Brian Lamb blamb11@... lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, June 26, 2024 at 07:56:28 AM MST, buck.ron@... <buck.ron@...> wrote:
I haven¡¯t seen this mentioned elsewhere on the forum, but possible I¡¯ve missed¡
On a couple of occasions I have trashed my scoring blade drive belt by not having the blade set low enough to clear my zero clearance insert :( this 2nd time, when I replaced the belt It runs fine for a week or two (maybe a few dozen cuts - I¡¯m not in the middle of anything big right now) and then for no apparent reason it will throw the belt. I put the belt back on, and everything is good for awhile, and then the same thing. 3 times now.
I¡¯m pretty sure the belt is on correctly, everything is fine once I re-install, but after a few weeks it comes off again. Not that it should matter, but I occasionally run the main blade all the way down (TS is the outfeed table for my SP500 in small shop).?
Any ideas?
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Re: Ripping 1.6mm aluminium extrusion on a kf700.
The normal saws have the option "73 Spraying unit to assist in processing light metals or plastics", so I think the saw itself is fine for cutting light aluminum.? However, this option is not on the saw-shapers.? There may be a specific reason why that isn't offered by Felder, but I'm not one to ask.? The metal shavings could cause problems with the shaper portion of the machine.? I would reach out to Felder technical support on this.
-Aaron
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KF700 S Keeps throwing scoring blade belt
I haven¡¯t seen this mentioned elsewhere on the forum, but possible I¡¯ve missed¡
On a couple of occasions I have trashed my scoring blade drive belt by not having the blade set low enough to clear my zero clearance insert :( this 2nd time, when I replaced the belt It runs fine for a week or two (maybe a few dozen cuts - I¡¯m not in the middle of anything big right now) and then for no apparent reason it will throw the belt. I put the belt back on, and everything is good for awhile, and then the same thing. 3 times now.
I¡¯m pretty sure the belt is on correctly, everything is fine once I re-install, but after a few weeks it comes off again. Not that it should matter, but I occasionally run the main blade all the way down (TS is the outfeed table for my SP500 in small shop).?
Any ideas?
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I applied with Felder and now have 2 tickets.??
Thanks Gabriella.
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Ripping 1.6mm aluminium extrusion on a kf700.
Am I mad ripping thin aluminium extrusions on my new kf700sp? (Machine coming next week) It's only about 1.6mm thick and I use to do 100's of metres on my old $1000 cabinet saw and didn't think twice about it, worked great with an aluminium cutting blade. However I'm just really concerned about the aluminium shavings getting into the slider mechanism and into places aluminium shouldn't go in this machine. Love some advice.
Also, I have the same question regarding the shaper. Once again, only working with thin 1.6mm aluminium. Taking small amounts off slowly. Will the metal shavings/swarf do any damage down there? I have the electronic up and down movement on spindle. Would hate for the metal shaving to damage that.
The aluminium is just basic 6063.
Thanks,
Chris.
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Steve,
Bummer, I was hoping to see you there.
PK
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Re: BF631 Electrical Woes
Hi Henry,
The BF6 electricals (shared earlier) are very similar to my KF700 from 2002 with the exception of brake board that eliminated P1, K5 & K6.?
AFAIK, this basic circuit continues today with the exception of improvements in the brake board where it is now involved with the starting circuit.
Personally, instead of deciphering the PCB, I would ditch it and rewire the machine per the newer wiring diagram, 1P or 3P. Use DIN rail terminal blocks to make the connections (instead of PCB) as in done in current machines.
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On Jun 23, 2024, at 3:59?PM, hwettersten via groups.io <hwettersten@...> wrote: ?Hi Imran,
It's close but with a few notable differences, some that could be the product of half-baked repairs and others that are inherent design differences on the board. For example: the fuses on the low-voltage circuit are absent and the contactor component numbers in the silkscreen are different than the diagram.
I spent another few hours trying to build out a schematic of the contactor actuation circuit yesterday, going as far as to remove the board from the machine to do so, but I'm not having much luck decoding it. I'm a mechanical engineer and am in over my head trying to figure out how the board logic works.
I've resolved for now to get the machine running using a potential start relay and a standalone contactor to drive the existing motors. I'll leave the existing guts of the machine powered off and only re-use the function selector switch by disconnecting the power leads from the board and wiring the output of my "drive" directly into the switch. I can't see much downside to doing this besides the marginal loss of safety features (my brake is already toast, so I'm only losing the microswitches and pushbuttons conveniently located at each function's station).
If this works I'll document it here as a last resort for other folks. It shouldn't be complicated or expensive to do. Maybe if I find some time in the evenings I'll wire up a microcontroller and some simple code to re-incorporate the low-voltage functions. I think my main board has breathed its last though. A 25-year run isn't too shabby.
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Re: BF631 Electrical Woes
Hi Imran,
It's close but with a few notable differences, some that could be the product of half-baked repairs and others that are inherent design differences on the board. For example: the fuses on the low-voltage circuit are absent and the contactor component numbers in the silkscreen are different than the diagram.
I spent another few hours trying to build out a schematic of the contactor actuation circuit yesterday, going as far as to remove the board from the machine to do so, but I'm not having much luck decoding it. I'm a mechanical engineer and am in over my head trying to figure out how the board logic works.
I've resolved for now to get the machine running using a potential start relay and a standalone contactor to drive the existing motors. I'll leave the existing guts of the machine powered off and only re-use the function selector switch by disconnecting the power leads from the board and wiring the output of my "drive" directly into the switch. I can't see much downside to doing this besides the marginal loss of safety features (my brake is already toast, so I'm only losing the microswitches and pushbuttons conveniently located at each function's station).
If this works I'll document it here as a last resort for other folks. It shouldn't be complicated or expensive to do. Maybe if I find some time in the evenings I'll wire up a microcontroller and some simple code to re-incorporate the low-voltage functions. I think my main board has breathed its last though. A 25-year run isn't too shabby.
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Re: BF631 Electrical Woes
Hi Henry,
Does this look like your machine?
I am sure you already know. KS is start relay. K1 keeps machine powered. K5 & K6 are for braking.
HTH,
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On Jun 22, 2024, at 10:09?PM, hwettersten via groups.io <hwettersten@...> wrote: ? Thank you Imran - I did email Felder a few weeks ago and they provided this same system diagram. Unfortunately the schematic is similar but not identical to how my machine is built (the wire numbers are not all the same and my machine has no fuses on the low-voltage system, for example).
These older machines with the Siemens main board are a challenge - if only a detailed board schematic were available it would be way faster to troubleshoot. I asked Felder about it and they said they don¡¯t have one - they treat the board as a black box.?
At this stage I¡¯m seriously considering either (a) ripping out the guts and building my own motor control circuit w/o brake, using an arduino to handle the switch logic, and reusing the selector switch, or (b) buying three-phase motors and using VFDs, again plus the microcontroller for logic.
i¡¯d really prefer not to burn the 100 hours or so I know it would take me to do this though!
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Re: BF631 Electrical Woes
Thank you Imran - I did email Felder a few weeks ago and they provided this same system diagram. Unfortunately the schematic is similar but not identical to how my machine is built (the wire numbers are not all the same and my machine has no fuses on the low-voltage system, for example).
These older machines with the Siemens main board are a challenge - if only a detailed board schematic were available it would be way faster to troubleshoot. I asked Felder about it and they said they don¡¯t have one - they treat the board as a black box.?
At this stage I¡¯m seriously considering either (a) ripping out the guts and building my own motor control circuit w/o brake, using an arduino to handle the switch logic, and reusing the selector switch, or (b) buying three-phase motors and using VFDs, again plus the microcontroller for logic.
i¡¯d really prefer not to burn the 100 hours or so I know it would take me to do this though!
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Re: BF631 Electrical Woes
Henry,
You look familiar with the electrical components and wiring. I will email you BF631 manual that has electrical wirings of various single and 3 phase models. I assume it is comprehensive so you machine should be one of them.
Hopefully, this will help you figure out what is original and what is a modification.
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On Jun 22, 2024, at 7:44?PM, hwettersten via groups.io <hwettersten@...> wrote: ?I've got a single phase '99 BF6 which has been giving me some trouble lately. I bought the machine used and a pervious owner (now deceased) had made a few modifications inside the electrical cabinet, of course with zero documentation.?
About six weeks ago I was using the table saw and started smelling smoke after the blade had been running for a few minutes. I immediately hit the stop button, which caused the machine to begin buzzing followed by a loud pop (under a second from hitting stop to the bang). I quickly flipped the main power switch off.
Investigating inside of the electrical cabinet showed the pop came from the braking thyristor, which had exploded. When I tried to start the table saw, the motor simply buzzed. The start winding on the motor had cooked the insulation enough to cause a short, so the table saw motor was toast. I was lucky enough to link up with Philip Davidson on here who sent me a replacement motor he had on hand (thanks Philip!).
Even though the table saw motor was toast, the other two motors still started up fine. Braking doesn't work anymore (even though I replaced the thyristor; there must be further damage, though nothing obvious on the board).
I have been doing a ton of shaper work the past month. A few weeks ago I was shaping away when all of a sudden I smelled smoke again. I quickly shut off the main switch and started investigating. My control cabinet has three contractors (two mounted to the board, one on some DIN rail. Under normal operation, the DIN rail contactor controls the start winding: it closes when I press the start button and opens when I release it. In this case the contacts had welded together and the start winding never shut off, which is what was causing the smoke. Fortunately this time I was quick enough to save the motor. I replaced the contactor with a new one and it seemed like I was back in business.
On Friday I had been using the machine on-and-off for a few hours and had just changed setups. I was dialing in my cut (taking a test cut, shutting off, adjusting, testing, etc...). I hit the start button and the spindle started up for half a second and then lost all power. No pops, growls, or buzzing, just a quiet coast down. Now when I try to start the machine there's not a sound. None of the contractors attempt to close.
All of my switches seem to be fine (I can make the yellow shaper reverse light come on, and hitting the stop buttons causes it to turn off momentarily. I also tested the shaper start switch and it functions fine (plus none of the functions work, so I suspect the issue is upstream). I measure ~30VDC across the low voltage contacts of the selector switch when I push the knob in.?
OK so enough with the essay. Here are my questions:
1. I'm struggling to tell what is original and what is the handiwork of the previous owner. Can anybody else with a single-phase BF6 take a few photos of the electrical cabinet? I'm specifically interested in whether there is a third contactor, and how it's actuated (where the A1+ and A2- wires come from).
2. Does this sound like something any of you have seen before? Based on the fact that it quit during start-up I'm guessing that something in the circuitry that actuates the contractors might have failed. I took the board out of the machine and it all looks pristine.?
3. I'm in a real time crunch to get some work done using this machine. Is there a simple solution like a generic ready-built motor control with a couple of relays/contactors I can use to run the shaper motor in the interim? I don't need braking; just the ability to drop out the start winding after a few seconds.
Thanks,
Henry
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I've got a single phase '99 BF6 which has been giving me some trouble lately. I bought the machine used and a pervious owner (now deceased) had made a few modifications inside the electrical cabinet, of course with zero documentation.?
About six weeks ago I was using the table saw and started smelling smoke after the blade had been running for a few minutes. I immediately hit the stop button, which caused the machine to begin buzzing followed by a loud pop (under a second from hitting stop to the bang). I quickly flipped the main power switch off.
Investigating inside of the electrical cabinet showed the pop came from the braking thyristor, which had exploded. When I tried to start the table saw, the motor simply buzzed. The start winding on the motor had cooked the insulation enough to cause a short, so the table saw motor was toast. I was lucky enough to link up with Philip Davidson on here who sent me a replacement motor he had on hand (thanks Philip!).
Even though the table saw motor was toast, the other two motors still started up fine. Braking doesn't work anymore (even though I replaced the thyristor; there must be further damage, though nothing obvious on the board).
I have been doing a ton of shaper work the past month. A few weeks ago I was shaping away when all of a sudden I smelled smoke again. I quickly shut off the main switch and started investigating. My control cabinet has three contractors (two mounted to the board, one on some DIN rail. Under normal operation, the DIN rail contactor controls the start winding: it closes when I press the start button and opens when I release it. In this case the contacts had welded together and the start winding never shut off, which is what was causing the smoke. Fortunately this time I was quick enough to save the motor. I replaced the contactor with a new one and it seemed like I was back in business.
On Friday I had been using the machine on-and-off for a few hours and had just changed setups. I was dialing in my cut (taking a test cut, shutting off, adjusting, testing, etc...). I hit the start button and the spindle started up for half a second and then lost all power. No pops, growls, or buzzing, just a quiet coast down. Now when I try to start the machine there's not a sound. None of the contractors attempt to close.
All of my switches seem to be fine (I can make the yellow shaper reverse light come on, and hitting the stop buttons causes it to turn off momentarily. I also tested the shaper start switch and it functions fine (plus none of the functions work, so I suspect the issue is upstream). I measure ~30VDC across the low voltage contacts of the selector switch when I push the knob in.?
OK so enough with the essay. Here are my questions:
1. I'm struggling to tell what is original and what is the handiwork of the previous owner. Can anybody else with a single-phase BF6 take a few photos of the electrical cabinet? I'm specifically interested in whether there is a third contactor, and how it's actuated (where the A1+ and A2- wires come from).
2. Does this sound like something any of you have seen before? Based on the fact that it quit during start-up I'm guessing that something in the circuitry that actuates the contractors might have failed. I took the board out of the machine and it all looks pristine.?
3. I'm in a real time crunch to get some work done using this machine. Is there a simple solution like a generic ready-built motor control with a couple of relays/contactors I can use to run the shaper motor in the interim? I don't need braking; just the ability to drop out the start winding after a few seconds.
Thanks,
Henry
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Michael March
PK
imran