Will When you get things adjusted side to side it is a good idea to feed lumber right to left and than back left to right taking advantage of the whole machine and not wearing in one spot ,,,say center. Also trim ends and keep material clean and keep material off the floor. Your knives will last a lot longer. Mac,,, Designing and building for 47 years
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On Feb 21, 2020, at 12:54 PM, Will Smithee <wasmithee@...> wrote:
?
But the "it" in your sentence is not the same thing that Dave was referring to.? You are adjusting outfeed roller, no?? Dave was referring to pressure bar, which the A3 doesn't have.
Excellent point Mark.? Thanks for catching that.
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I've not looked at the current A3 adjustment options.? The previous A3 gen (which I also had) did not have feed roller height adjustment, only spring pressure adjustment.? It's not clear to me what purpose roller height adjustment would serve.? The height adjustment would only seem to affect the amount of vertical travel before the roller is running on top of the board, but the thing that affects feed behavior is the amount of pressure applied, which is just a function of the spring adjustment.?
On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:04 AM David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
From: David Kumm <davekumm@...>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 2:01 PM
To: Will Smithee <wasmithee@...>
Subject: Re: [FOG] Hammer C3 31 - Setup Issues - Planer Snipe and Board Kick #hammer #jpsetup #spiralcutterhead
?
If you don't have a pressure bar, my advise was irrelevant.? A difference in spring pressure or height in the rollers could be a cause but I don't know what adjustments are available.? I have a Delta DC33 that I put a Byrd head on years ago and use once in
a while as a finishing planer.? Same crap design, roller, head, roller, but it leaves no snipe, leading or trailing.? You should be able to get decent results with a spiral head as it reduces the need for the better design.? Dave
Hi Dave, I've adjusted it per the instructions given by Felder making sure each side is "exactly" the same (my gauge goes down to 0.01mm accuracy), but I am also thinking that perhaps the 0.3mm delta between the cutter tip and the outfeed
roller perhaps is too much.? In other words perhaps it isn't just "kissing" the board but exerting too much force as exemplified in Mark Thomas's response just below yours with the cool graphic.? Oddly though at the same time, when I have had the highest tension
on the outfeed roller compared to the infeed roller I've seen less board kick.
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From: David Kumm <davekumm@...>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 2:01 PM
To: Will Smithee <wasmithee@...>
Subject: Re: [FOG] Hammer C3 31 - Setup Issues - Planer Snipe and Board Kick #hammer #jpsetup #spiralcutterhead
?
If you don't have a pressure bar, my advise was irrelevant.? A difference in spring pressure or height in the rollers could be a cause but I don't know what adjustments are available.? I have a Delta DC33 that I put a Byrd head on years ago and use once in
a while as a finishing planer.? Same crap design, roller, head, roller, but it leaves no snipe, leading or trailing.? You should be able to get decent results with a spiral head as it reduces the need for the better design.? Dave
From: Will Smithee <wasmithee@...>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 12:58 PM
To: David Kumm <davekumm@...>; [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [FOG] Hammer C3 31 - Setup Issues - Planer Snipe and Board Kick #hammer #jpsetup #spiralcutterhead
?
Hi Dave, I've adjusted it per the instructions given by Felder making sure each side is "exactly" the same (my gauge goes down to 0.01mm accuracy), but I am also thinking that perhaps the 0.3mm delta between the cutter tip and the outfeed
roller perhaps is too much.? In other words perhaps it isn't just "kissing" the board but exerting too much force as exemplified in Mark Thomas's response just below yours with the cool graphic.? Oddly though at the same time, when I have had the highest tension
on the outfeed roller compared to the infeed roller I've seen less board kick.
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But the "it" in your sentence is not the same thing that Dave was referring to.? You are adjusting outfeed roller, no?? Dave was referring to pressure bar, which the A3 doesn't have.
Excellent point Mark.? Thanks for catching that.
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A picture is worth a thousand words: 
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On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 09:58 AM, Will Smithee wrote:
Hi David, I've adjusted it per the instructions given by Felder making sure each side is "exactly" the same
But the "it" in your sentence is not the same thing that Dave was referring to.? You are adjusting outfeed roller, no?? Dave was referring to pressure bar, which the A3 doesn't have.
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Well I¡¯ll be darned I thought I saw the bent sheet steel ¡°pressure shoe¡± in the hammers, guess I was darn wrong.
Gona get the FEA team on it, they have nothing better to do than serve my needs...? Regards, Mark
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On Feb 21, 2020, at 12:54 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
? I dunno know about pictures you're using, but I have the machine and I assure you it has no pressure bar. If you think about the mechanics, it's pretty clear that the tendency to kick is dependent on the differential friction between the infeed and outfeed rollers, the friction of wood against the bed, and the rearward force of the cutting (depth of cut, density of wood, etc), and of course, these factors will be affected by the length of the board (amount of contact with bed).??
Maybe under ideal conditions it will rarely occur.? Maybe Mark can get this FEA team to study it ;-)
But maybe, just maybe, if you feed boards in the middle, the problem will go away.
I think the hammers do have what Felder calls a pressure shoe (aka pressure bar). Looks like it in the pics anyways. Doesn¡¯t look like it has the adjustments on the outfeed side that the ad941 has though? Regards, Mark On Feb 21, 2020, at 12:29 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 09:05 AM, David Kumm wrote:
pressure bar before the outfeed roller being too low on one side
The A3 isn't that class of equipment -- there is no pressure bar.? It's simply infeed roller, cutterhead, outfeed roller. I think it's impossible to "tune" an A3 to not exhibit this behavior.? ?But it's not hard to feed boards in the middle of planer ;-)
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Hi David, I've adjusted it per the instructions given by Felder making sure each side is "exactly" the same (my gauge goes down to 0.01mm accuracy), but I am also thinking that perhaps the 0.3mm delta between the cutter tip and the outfeed roller perhaps is too much.? In other words perhaps it isn't just "kissing" the board but exerting too much force as exemplified in Mark Thomas's response just below yours with the cool graphic.? Oddly though at the same time, when I have had the highest tension on the outfeed roller compared to the infeed roller I've seen less board kick.
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I dunno know about pictures you're using, but I have the machine and I assure you it has no pressure bar. If you think about the mechanics, it's pretty clear that the tendency to kick is dependent on the differential friction between the infeed and outfeed rollers, the friction of wood against the bed, and the rearward force of the cutting (depth of cut, density of wood, etc), and of course, these factors will be affected by the length of the board (amount of contact with bed).??
Maybe under ideal conditions it will rarely occur.? Maybe Mark can get this FEA team to study it ;-)
But maybe, just maybe, if you feed boards in the middle, the problem will go away.
I think the hammers do have what Felder calls a pressure shoe (aka pressure bar). Looks like it in the pics anyways. Doesn¡¯t look like it has the adjustments on the outfeed side that the ad941 has though? Regards, Mark On Feb 21, 2020, at 12:29 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 09:05 AM, David Kumm wrote:
pressure bar before the outfeed roller being too low on one side
The A3 isn't that class of equipment -- there is no pressure bar.? It's simply infeed roller, cutterhead, outfeed roller. I think it's impossible to "tune" an A3 to not exhibit this behavior.? ?But it's not hard to feed boards in the middle of planer ;-)
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Will, just curious, does a long board do the same? It is probably not recommended or safe but when feeding short material I keep down pressure on the end of the board so the back end of the board won¡¯t lift as it gets picked up by the infeed roller. I also do the same when they exit. Long boards have enough weight so I do not worry. This is a habit I developed with my first planer and probably need to stop doing that with Dual51. I am not recommending this practice.
Imran On Feb 21, 2020, at 9:56 PM, Will Smithee <wasmithee@...> wrote:
? [Edited Message Follows]
Hi Mark,? I as well have worked to align the roller heights with the cutter-block instead of the insert tips as that is a tricky and not very repeatable process.? I found that the inserts protrude 0.9mm from the cutter-block surface.? I then added that to the measurements supplied by Felder ( 0.9mm?on the in-feed became? 1.8mm?and ?0.3mm?on the out-feed became? 1.2mm).? Hopefully I eventually will find the magic settings to make this work well.? I hope you've found the best settings for yours now.
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I think the hammers do have what Felder calls a pressure shoe (aka pressure bar). Looks like it in the pics anyways. Doesn¡¯t look like it has the adjustments on the outfeed side that the ad941 has though? Regards, Mark
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On Feb 21, 2020, at 12:29 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 09:05 AM, David Kumm wrote:
pressure bar before the outfeed roller being too low on one side
The A3 isn't that class of equipment -- there is no pressure bar.? It's simply infeed roller, cutterhead, outfeed roller. I think it's impossible to "tune" an A3 to not exhibit this behavior.? ?But it's not hard to feed boards in the middle of planer ;-)
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On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:43 AM, Will Smithee wrote:
Here is a poor quality video I shot of the behavior
Never experience this kind of kicks yet. I tried 2x4 on the right and left side and both went through the planer without any right or left kick. My kick was up kick. Bill
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On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 09:05 AM, David Kumm wrote:
pressure bar before the outfeed roller being too low on one side
The A3 isn't that class of equipment -- there is no pressure bar.? It's simply infeed roller, cutterhead, outfeed roller. I think it's impossible to "tune" an A3 to not exhibit this behavior.? ?But it's not hard to feed boards in the middle of planer ;-)
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Thanks for explaining "kick".? I don't understand why this is a problem.? The solution is not to run boards on the side.? Run them in the middle. To some degree, this behavior is inevitable with a solid roller.? Perfectly even tension on the roller will not prevent it.? It is caused by the rollers not making even contact across across the width of the board.? Maybe this drawing helps.? See recent other planer thread with picture of segmented rollers, a (much more expensive) design that won't have this behavior.?? 
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Usually when a board slants off on the outfeed it is due to the pressure bar before the outfeed roller being too low on one side.? It's purpose is to hold the stock to the table so it needs to be carefully adjusted to just kiss the stock after it passes the
head but not bind.? That may be part of the problem.? Dave
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[Edited Message Follows]
Hi Mark,? I as well have worked to align the roller heights with the cutter-block instead of the insert tips as that is a tricky and not very repeatable process.? I found that the inserts protrude 0.9mm from the cutter-block surface.? I then added that to the
measurements supplied by Felder ( 0.9mm?on the in-feed became? 1.8mm?and ?0.3mm?on
the out-feed became? 1.2mm).? Hopefully I eventually will find the magic settings to make this work well.? I hope you've found the best settings for yours now.
|
Hi Mark,? I as well have worked to align the roller heights with the cutter-block instead of the insert tips as that is a tricky and not very repeatable process.? I found that the inserts protrude 0.9mm from the cutter-block surface.? I then added that to the measurements supplied by Felder (0.9mm?on the in-feed became?1.8mm?and?0.3mm?on the out-feed became?1.2mm).? Hopefully I eventually will find the magic settings to make this work well.? I hope you've found the best settings for yours now.
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
We're all just guessing, but I would guess that companies that have made good saws for 50 years lean heavily on tried and true designs, and I would also guess that those designs have stiffness and strength that exceed the requirements for mere blade tensioning sufficiency, but add other benefits (lower vibration, quieter, etc)? On the other hand, I would guess that companies designing from scratch today heavily lean on modern design tools like FEA, which obviously helps them "optimize" both mechanics and manufacturing cost.? ?I would further guess that the former companies generally produce better saws.?
So yes I bet Felder does FEA on their band saw design, and they deliver an "OK" level saw today compared to the good-to-great saws delivered by competitors decades before FEA was possible.? ?Probably the ACM bean counters encourage the engineers to use more FEA ;-)?
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Board kick (This is the term used to describe this behavior by the Felder field tech) is when the board "kicks' to one side or the other when going through the thicknessing planer.? In my case when running a board through on the right side of the planer it kicks the back of the board to the left while the opposite is tru on the left... this is odd since if one of the rollers are tensioned too tight on the right side one would expect boards to kick that direction regardless of which side they are fed on.
Here is a poor quality video I shot of the behavior:?
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Sorry for not being clear enough. I am speaking of the thicknessing planer, not the jointer.
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
Mark,
Where I retired from, we had experienced MEs in the office in USA but for some yrs now we have been doing FEAs in our India Design Center. Thermal and vibration are big issue for us as the diesel engine control module is mounted to the engine. Caterpillar and Cummins both have very demanding off-road applications.
It is also my impression that tools are fairly accessible. Once you are past the learning curve, you can literally run analysis very quickly. We would request several scenarios one day and India would have results for us when we came to work the next morning.
Imran? On Feb 21, 2020, at 4:42 PM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:
? Imran, not suggesting it is simple to do ,(not saying that you were implying i said that, i¡¯m just say¡¯in).
At the company I work at 5-7 ME¡¯s with masters and one with a doctorate are on the FEA team, thats all they do. But injection molding machinery, hotrunnners and molds are a bit more complicated than most woodworking equipment, some of our machines are capable of pressing over 1000tons with 3-4sec cycle times and the hotrunners are ultra complex, lots of thermal expansion at many different rates.?
In any case I would be very surprised if a company like felder is not utilizing an FEA program they are very accessible and a regular ol¡¯ ME can do it at least at thumb suck level... Regards, Mark On Feb 20, 2020, at 11:33 PM, imranindiana via Groups.Io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Mark Thomas,
I believe an FEA would answer the question of how stiff the column should be. They have been measuring resonant frequency of complete car chassis for decades so bandsaw is not that difficult.
Should be stiff enough to withstand worst case loading and any oscillation should be high enough so that it does not affect the operation. I am certain it is not simple but should be doable by an experienced ME.
Imran On Feb 21, 2020, at 9:08 AM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?I doubt bandsaw makers do FEA, but who knows.? But FEA is orthogonal to the question I raised, which is how stiff it should be,??
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imran