Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
I have nothing new to add, but I would like to talk those who keep this going, administrative, leadership and technical know how.
Mark Foster
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Does Yahoo give admin any tools for deeper insight, like how many people post or visit (read)?
4255 is quite a few members.? It "feels" to me like regulars is measured in the dozens.??
Mark
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Hi all, I am one of these 4255 members who just read and use information other people shared. I agreed that yahoo group format is old and difficult to use.? I can¡¯t help with migration to the new format, don¡¯t have much computer experience, but I will be glad to contribute financially as yearly fees. Like Sawmillcreek forum, which I think most busiest woodworking forum. Thank you. Ed
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Just FYI, we have 4255 members, granted there is probably some inactive and duplicate numbers in there. We run something like 300-600 posts per month. We do have a lot of folks that are computer challenged¡ not sure how they got on the group to begin with, but they email me when they aren¡¯t getting email delivery and they don¡¯t know how or can¡¯t figure out how to read the posts on the web. So more than a few challenges¡ it has to be cheap, it has to be easy, some folks prefer going to a website to participate, some prefer email (in the form of instant and separate emails, and some in digest form).
I don¡¯t know if there is going to be a one size fits all solution to all of this.?
Hi all,
just read all the posts I missed since lunch and having to deal with Gmail threading combined with the Yahoo group footer made this very confusing.?
To echo what was said above, a solution hosted on a "real" host would be preferable. Digital Ocean 10$/month instance would be more than enough for the current traffic and using a free tier email service may be enough (I dont know, depends on how many members subscribe to email digests).
There are other options to Discourse (it just happened to be my favourite) and I think that more options should be explored, specifically free ones to easy IT administration..
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Just FYI, we have 4255 members, granted there is probably some inactive and duplicate numbers in there. We run something like 300-600 posts per month. We do have a lot of folks that are computer challenged¡ not sure how they got on the group to begin with, but they email me when they aren¡¯t getting email delivery and they don¡¯t know how or can¡¯t figure out how to read the posts on the web. So more than a few challenges¡ it has to be cheap, it has to be easy, some folks prefer going to a website to participate, some prefer email (in the form of instant and separate emails, and some in digest form).
I don¡¯t know if there is going to be a one size fits all solution to all of this.?
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Hi all,
just read all the posts I missed since lunch and having to deal with Gmail threading combined with the Yahoo group footer made this very confusing.?
To echo what was said above, a solution hosted on a "real" host would be preferable. Digital Ocean 10$/month instance would be more than enough for the current traffic and using a free tier email service may be enough (I dont know, depends on how many members subscribe to email digests).
There are other options to Discourse (it just happened to be my favourite) and I think that more options should be explored, specifically free ones to easy IT administration.
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Hi all,
just read all the posts I missed since lunch and having to deal with Gmail threading combined with the Yahoo group footer made this very confusing.?
To echo what was said above, a solution hosted on a "real" host would be preferable. Digital Ocean 10$/month instance would be more than enough for the current traffic and using a free tier email service may be enough (I dont know, depends on how many members subscribe to email digests).
There are other options to Discourse (it just happened to be my favourite) and I think that more options should be explored, specifically free ones to easy IT administration.
On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 8:10 PM, murkyd@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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David made excellent points.? ?
When this issue comes up, people do always (correctly) note that the hassle of moving platform is substantial, and often also note that the current system "works OK".? ?
But less discussed is what David raised, namely that a modern platform might energize the forum from the rather low bar of "works OK" (and that is arguably only even true by decade old standards) to something quite a bit more useful and engaging.
I'll add these thoughts:
- hosting in someone's house on Comcast seems nuts to me in the year 2018.? (not that makes me the foremost expert, but fwiw worth my day job is managing an IT organization and I know something about tech.)
- I myself couldn't/shouldn't offer "leadership" David refers to, since I'm not a serious enough Felder user, but I value the forum a lot.?
- I would happily contribute money to a new forum effort, both one-time to help transition and some annuity.
Mark?
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
David made excellent points.? ?
When this issue comes up, people do always (correctly) note that the hassle of moving platform is substantial, and often also note that the current system "works OK".? ?
But less discussed is what David raised, namely that a modern platform might energize the forum from the rather low bar of "works OK" (and that is arguably only even true by decade old standards) to something quite a bit more useful and engaging.
I'll add these thoughts:
- hosting in someone's house on Comcast seems nuts to me in the year 2018.? (not that makes me the foremost expert, but fwiw worth my day job is managing an IT organization and I know something about tech.)
- I myself couldn't/shouldn't offer "leadership" David refers to, since I'm not a serious enough Felder user, but I value the forum a lot.?
- I would happily contribute money to a new forum effort, both one-time to help transition and some annuity.
Mark?
?
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Re: WTB: Hammer K3 Winner
Crap, too bad you werent in Long Island, NY i'd prolly get rid of it.
I bought my 79"er last year and lately Im realizing I will have no
room for it in my garage when the ShopSabre Pro404 cnc arrives
this summer. Somethings got to give.
Also contemplating an 8'x20' cargo trailer to house it and a few tools
next to the garage. One of those Haulmark box type.
Undecided for now but in excellent condition for light weekend use.
Sorry to be of no help here, just had to vent.
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Forums like this reflect the values of the leadership/control structure of the group, not necessarily the values of the majority of the users involved.? ? The topic of ¡°platform¡± comes up here almost annually - Yahoo Groups has serious limitations & frustrations, but it has two things many like:? it¡¯s free and places no demands on the casual user. ? Excuses abound when the ¡°platform¡± suggestions come up - about moving files, hassle, time, money, etc. ?
In contrast to FOG, I also participate in and support (financially and otherwise) a handful of other forums/user groups, which operate with a completely different philosophy about user interaction & involvement, distribute the leadership more widely, and are funded with annual voluntary contributions to support a superior platform. ? I find those groups more effective and satisfying overall - they support email, are fully and effectively searchable, embrace many forms of media imbedded and archived (pdf, video, photos, etc.), allow cross-thread linking and referencing, facilitate polls and voting, and are mobile-device friendly, etc. ?And because so many of the users chip in a small annual contribution and help with administration, they have more skin in the game, and participation rates (quality and quantity) are high.
I too appreciate all that John and Brian do to keep this group functioning and fending off the spam and junk. ? I also observe that participation by FOG members appears to be in decline, as evidenced by the number of postings on an annual or monthly basis. ? When I joined this group in 2001, it was thriving with tons of posts and lots of user contributions. ?Of course, back then the equipment being produced was far more temperamental and challenging to get and keep aligned and functioning in top form. ? Others have expressed the view to me privately that they would participate more on FOG if the platform supported media (photos, video, etc.) inclusion and the archive had search facilities that actually work. ? A few of my closest friends here on FOG have formed our own sub-group using the mobile device messaging platform and exchange dozens of messages daily with photos and videos of real-world problems, ideas and assistance.
I know many here are hankering for a better platform, and some are willing to contribute cash to that end, and others still are prepared to give leadership. ? But such a shift would require the enthusiastic support of John and Brian, or the formation of an altogether new group (which has been tried and failed). ??
Although the ¡°platform" topic remains a hearty perennial here, and always pulls previously unheard from users out of the woodwork, the political will to migrate to a better platform remains the primary deterrent. ? ?
So Dr. Renzetti, since you are the sole owner of the group, I¡¯ll put it to you: ? would you embrace moving to a new platform, and if so, under what conditions?
David Best
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Okay, so, i was hoping someone else might volunteer, but i guess i'll do it :)
Yahoo groups has a JSON API that can be used to retrieve all the data (messages, files, photos, etc). It works fine on felder-woodworking. If folks want to move to a place that has a sane import API, i'm happy to do the export and import.
If folks want to move to a place that has no import API, i'm also happy to provide a database that has all the data from the group, and someone else (not me!) can use it to build some web or mobile app or something out of the old data so it can be searched/used.
This is obviously more annoying (or more awesome, depending on how you use the group :P), but there you go.
In case anyone is worried about whether i can get it done, i've moved 3 *very* large? open source projects between different messaging software, bug software, and version control software before, so i've done this kind of thing before.
--Dan
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
We've solved this in some of the open source projects by using things like mailgun for email sending. We'd be well within the free tier (by a factor of 20)
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One of the big hang ups on self hosting is ability to send emails. Even with a Comcast business account, the IP range would likely be on a public blacklist for spam. Without email notifications, forum response would slow to a crawl if members had to visit the site for updates. Not sure what a feasible workaround would be other than paying for hosting (likely not an option).?
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Whoops, hit send too early.
3. The existing import/export scripts look like they need some work, and don't handle files/photos/etc at all, but that would not be difficult to add.
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
One of the big hang ups on self hosting is ability to send emails. Even with a Comcast business account, the IP range would likely be on a public blacklist for spam. Without email notifications, forum response would slow to a crawl if members had to visit the site for updates. Not sure what a feasible workaround would be other than paying for hosting (likely not an option).?
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On Jan 9, 2018, at 5:22 PM, Daniel Berlin dan@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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Whoops, hit send too early.
3. The existing import/export scripts look like they need some work, and don't handle files/photos/etc at all, but that would not be difficult to add.
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Whoops, hit send too early.
3. The existing import/export scripts look like they need some work, and don't handle files/photos/etc at all, but that would not be difficult to add.
On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Daniel Berlin <dberlin@...> wrote: I haven't used discourse, but i've used similar software. Discourse has an import infrastructure, and someone wrote a yahoo groups importer (), and relies on an existing export script that looks reasonable. The infrastructure does not look hard to or work with at a glance.
A few random things:
1. User email address export requires admin privileges to the yahoo group, w but that's not necessary until the very end (IE we should be able to test the output and be happy with it, but the email addresses assigned during import will be fake. Yahoo strips them from the API) 2. Discourse does not allow files to be uploaded/attached outside of posts. That works fine for photos.? ?But it looks like we have an entire set of files/folders.? Those would either have to be attached to a discourse post, or we'd need a shared drive/dropbox/etc folder or something if we wanted more hierarchical organization. Discourse does not allow nesting (it's deliberately flat threading), etc. It also doesn't look hard to do something like "one post per folder" with the files attached.??
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
I haven't used discourse, but i've used similar software. Discourse has an import infrastructure, and someone wrote a yahoo groups importer (), and relies on an existing export script that looks reasonable. The infrastructure does not look hard to or work with at a glance.
A few random things:
1. User email address export requires admin privileges to the yahoo group, w but that's not necessary until the very end (IE we should be able to test the output and be happy with it, but the email addresses assigned during import will be fake. Yahoo strips them from the API) 2. Discourse does not allow files to be uploaded/attached outside of posts. That works fine for photos.? ?But it looks like we have an entire set of files/folders.? Those would either have to be attached to a discourse post, or we'd need a shared drive/dropbox/etc folder or something if we wanted more hierarchical organization. Discourse does not allow nesting (it's deliberately flat threading), etc. It also doesn't look hard to do something like "one post per folder" with the files attached.??
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Dan,
was recommended as a viable forum platform. Looks like a self contained Docker install. Have you used it before, and could the Yahoo data be migrated to discourse easily? I might volunteer to host the site if there is widespread support to move. Spoke with Comcast on a 150/20 business line for hosting, but I'm not sure what level of traffic to expect.?
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Okay, so, i was hoping someone else might volunteer, but i guess i'll do it :)
Yahoo groups has a JSON API that can be used to retrieve all the data (messages, files, photos, etc). It works fine on felder-woodworking. If folks want to move to a place that has a sane import API, i'm happy to do the export and import.
If folks want to move to a place that has no import API, i'm also happy to provide a database that has all the data from the group, and someone else (not me!) can use it to build some web or mobile app or something out of the old data so it can be searched/used.
This is obviously more annoying (or more awesome, depending on how you use the group :P), but there you go.
In case anyone is worried about whether i can get it done, i've moved 3 *very* large? open source projects between different messaging software, bug software, and version control software before, so i've done this kind of thing before.
--Dan
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Same here. Hands down the highest quality contributors I¡¯ve ever encountered in a forum. John and Brian, Thanks for keeping it alive for so long.?
I¡¯d hate to see a more modern forum bring in users that lower the quality of content or discourage the current contributors from pitching in. In my limited experience, it seems like the high barrier to entry here filters out the troublemakers. But I also see a ton of value in the discussions that have taken place, yet they are brutally difficult to search/traverse compared to modern forums, hence the desire to move forward if a low/zero cost option is available.?
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On Jan 9, 2018, at 4:24 PM, Bellsouth dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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Hi John,
I appreciate the work you and Brian do on this forum.
Hello Mark, While I don¡¯t post much since by the time I get a look at a question a bunch of others have already answered. But I usually visit the forum every day, check the messages and along with Brian will do the housekeeping. You don¡¯t see that but the results are there is no spam messages that get through.? Hard to believe we¡¯ve been doing this for 17 going on 18yrs.? ? Take care, John Renzetti? ?
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Dan,
was recommended as a viable forum platform. Looks like a self contained Docker install. Have you used it before, and could the Yahoo data be migrated to discourse easily? I might volunteer to host the site if there is widespread support to move. Spoke with Comcast on a 150/20 business line for hosting, but I'm not sure what level of traffic to expect.?
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On Jan 9, 2018, at 2:03 PM, Daniel Berlin dan@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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Okay, so, i was hoping someone else might volunteer, but i guess i'll do it :)
Yahoo groups has a JSON API that can be used to retrieve all the data (messages, files, photos, etc). It works fine on felder-woodworking. If folks want to move to a place that has a sane import API, i'm happy to do the export and import.
If folks want to move to a place that has no import API, i'm also happy to provide a database that has all the data from the group, and someone else (not me!) can use it to build some web or mobile app or something out of the old data so it can be searched/used.
This is obviously more annoying (or more awesome, depending on how you use the group :P), but there you go.
In case anyone is worried about whether i can get it done, i've moved 3 *very* large? open source projects between different messaging software, bug software, and version control software before, so i've done this kind of thing before.
--Dan
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Hi John,
I appreciate the work you and Brian do on this forum.
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Hello Mark, While I don¡¯t post much since by the time I get a look at a question a bunch of others have already answered. But I usually visit the forum every day, check the messages and along with Brian will do the housekeeping. You don¡¯t see that but the results are there is no spam messages that get through.? Hard to believe we¡¯ve been doing this for 17 going on 18yrs.? ? Take care, John Renzetti? ?
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Time fly's (pun intended) when your having fun John. With Mr. Trump squashing Net Neutrality on your side of the border the internet may get very interesting /scary. Only time will tell and how long free will stay free.?
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-------- Original message -------- From: "'John Renzetti' jrenzetti1@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...> Date: 2018-01-09 2:48 PM (GMT-05:00) To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: RE: [felder-woodworking] Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Hello Mark, While I don¡¯t post much since by the time I get a look at a question a bunch of others have already answered. But I usually visit the forum every day, check the messages and along with Brian will do the housekeeping. You don¡¯t see that but the results are there is no spam messages that get through. Hard to believe we¡¯ve been doing this for 17 going on 18yrs. ? Take care, John Renzetti ? From: felder-woodworking@... [mailto:felder-woodworking@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 12:26 AM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking? ?
I certainly didn't intend to start a? debate what's the "best" forum software.? As John says, a key issue is the energy to convert and be responsible as new owner (presumably not Renzetti).
I could have been more specific in my first post.?The reason groups.io has some popularity for former Yahoo groups is that it has a free version that meets many small forum needs, and it has tools to automate conversion from Yahoo.? ?So it holds the potential to be easy to convert, and a better (not best) forum. Certainly groups.io is not as sexy as discourse.org, but the latter doesn't meet the criteria of simple and free. I was curious if the forum owner was thinking about these things, and it seems that's been answered -- the forum owner doesn't visit the forum ;-)
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Hello Mark, While I don¡¯t post much since by the time I get a look at a question a bunch of others have already answered. But I usually visit the forum every day, check the messages and along with Brian will do the housekeeping. You don¡¯t see that but the results are there is no spam messages that get through. Hard to believe we¡¯ve been doing this for 17 going on 18yrs. ? Take care, John Renzetti ?
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From: felder-woodworking@... [mailto:felder-woodworking@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 12:26 AM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking??
I certainly didn't intend to start a? debate what's the "best" forum software.? As John says, a key issue is the energy to convert and be responsible as new owner (presumably not Renzetti).
I could have been more specific in my first post.?The reason groups.io has some popularity for former Yahoo groups is that it has a free version that meets many small forum needs, and it has tools to automate conversion from Yahoo.? ?So it holds the potential to be easy to convert, and a better (not best) forum. Certainly groups.io is not as sexy as discourse.org, but the latter doesn't meet the criteria of simple and free. I was curious if the forum owner was thinking about these things, and it seems that's been answered -- the forum owner doesn't visit the forum ;-)
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Is anyone considering upgrading from or selling a Hammer K3 Winner?? I'm located in the midwest.
Thanks.
Karl
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Okay, so, i was hoping someone else might volunteer, but i guess i'll do it :)
Yahoo groups has a JSON API that can be used to retrieve all the data (messages, files, photos, etc). It works fine on felder-woodworking. If folks want to move to a place that has a sane import API, i'm happy to do the export and import.
If folks want to move to a place that has no import API, i'm also happy to provide a database that has all the data from the group, and someone else (not me!) can use it to build some web or mobile app or something out of the old data so it can be searched/used.
This is obviously more annoying (or more awesome, depending on how you use the group :P), but there you go.
In case anyone is worried about whether i can get it done, i've moved 3 *very* large? open source projects between different messaging software, bug software, and version control software before, so i've done this kind of thing before.
--Dan
On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 9:56 AM, Brian Lamb blamb11@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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There have been several other attempts at creating another Felder group, none of which survived. This all stated back with eGroups in about 1999, and it was purchased/absorbed by Yahoo in maybe 2000 or 2001 if I remember correctly.
I think you have us mixed up with a dead forum started by a missing in action Festool Forum member named Sitting Elf/Frank. This group started before the original Festool forum was even in existence. He tried to started a completely new forum that didn't attract anybody with any Felder knowledge.?
-------- Original message -------- Date: 2018-01-09 12:24 PM (GMT-05:00) Subject: [felder-woodworking] Re: for Felder Woodworking?
Hello,? I am new to the Felder Woodworking Group and I came across this conversation.? It is interesting that to find this group originally I was using the Festool Owners Group.? They use a product that is open source called Simple Machine Forum (SMF) to manage their group, just a thought.??
Anyway, I have just purchase a Hammer A3-26 Jointer/Planar unit and waiting the delivery in the near future.? My goal is to use the Felder-Woodworking Owners Group to gather tips and tricks on how the product works and nuances that users have come across the improve on the experience.? I am not new to woodworking as I have been a hobbyist/DIY person for 27 years and appreciate good tools and machinery.? The Felder product line intrigued me because it advertised precision and quality above price.? I value the idea that with better tools, what you create in the woodshop comes out better.? Price is always something tha t each user must balance with quality and precision.? So I will continue to check out the group for help along the way.
Regards,
Chuck? ? ?
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Brian,
Just to clarify, I wasn't griping about Yahoo per se.? ?I was just noting that many Yahoo groups are (once again) feeling the itch to get off Yahoo since the Verizon purchase, and some are finding groups.io to be Yahoo-like -- free and almost no admin time required -- and I was just curious if others had noticed or thought about it recently.? ?
A truly free and painless conversion to a better platform is indeed not super likely.. but maybe the options are actually getting better...
Mark
??
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Mark Foster
David P. Best
John Renzetti