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Re: Phase Perfect Simple
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýI will throw this tid-bit here for someone who might be stuck with PP Simple model that faults every time machine is turned off due to braking or another nuisance fault.This should only be used for a nuisance fault. If one is to take advantage of this, it is imperative that one keeps an eye on the fault log to ensure that a serious fault has not occurred. Imran Malik On Sep 23, 2024, at 10:47?PM, Imran Malik <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Bruce, I forgot to thank you for sharing the error code. That helped me understand the issue with PP Simple model and braking. I still don¡¯t have enough information to know how Enterprise overcomes this other than the line filter which would help minimize the voltage unbalance during braking. Imran Malik On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:24?PM, Imran Malik <imranindiana@...> wrote: ?Yes Aaron, braking is done by DC injection in Felder machines. At least what I have seen so far. 3 phase AC to DC conversion exists but it costs more. Imran Malik On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:13?PM, Aaron Inami via groups.io <ainami@...> wrote: ? I think I read somewhere that electronic motor breaking in these machines are done by sending flat-line DC current through the motor windings (as opposed to alternating current).? It would make sense that the brake board uses only single-phase power.? There is likely an AC-to-DC power supply on it which really only works with single phase input.
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-Aaron
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Re: Phase Perfect Simple
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýBruce, I forgot to thank you for sharing the error code. That helped me understand the issue with PP Simple model and braking. I still don¡¯t have enough information to know how Enterprise overcomes this other than the line filter which would help minimize the voltage unbalance during braking. Imran Malik On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:24?PM, Imran Malik <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?Yes Aaron, braking is done by DC injection in Felder machines. At least what I have seen so far. 3 phase AC to DC conversion exists but it costs more. Imran Malik On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:13?PM, Aaron Inami via groups.io <ainami@...> wrote: ? I think I read somewhere that electronic motor breaking in these machines are done by sending flat-line DC current through the motor windings (as opposed to alternating current).? It would make sense that the brake board uses only single-phase power.? There is likely an AC-to-DC power supply on it which really only works with single phase input.
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-Aaron
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Re: Phase Perfect Simple
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýYes Aaron, braking is done by DC injection in Felder machines. At least what I have seen so far.3 phase AC to DC conversion exists but it costs more. Imran Malik On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:13?PM, Aaron Inami via groups.io <ainami@...> wrote:
? I think I read somewhere that electronic motor breaking in these machines are done by sending flat-line DC current through the motor windings (as opposed to alternating current).? It would make sense that the brake board uses only single-phase power.? There is likely an AC-to-DC power supply on it which really only works with single phase input.
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-Aaron
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Re: Phase Perfect Simple
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýReading Aaron¡¯s response made me check the Felder schematics again. I believe the issue is that the brake board is only given single phase power. I can see a ¡°voltage unbalance error¡± setting because the current is only being pulled from 2 of the 3 legs once the motor is turned off. In light of above, I agree that braking can cause this issue but I wish PP stop calling it a regenerative braking issue. ?I don¡¯t have enough information to conclude that simple model can¡¯t start a hard to start load. As Bruce is able to start his 5HP compressor. Compressors are hard to start unless they have the easy start feature. This is what PP states about Simple model: Based on the same phase conversion technology as its bigger brothers, but designed for home shop, light commercial, and single motor applications where the cost of the Enterprise and original Phase Perfect??are prohibitive. Bruce is definitely better off with Enterprise model as he stated the compressor will run continuously. Imran Malik On Sep 23, 2024, at 5:11?PM, Aaron Inami via groups.io <ainami@...> wrote:
? I believe the "Simple" models do not have that large capacitor bank that is needed to drive "hard to start" or "braking" machines.? I don't think it's just a matter of an input line filter.? The Simple line is intended for light use and light load types.? I think you'll definitely want to upgrade to the "Enterprise" version if you are intending to use it with an air compressor.? These air compressors are the heavier "hard to start" type of machines.
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-Aaron
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Re: CF 731 Pro Jointer Snipe / Adjustment
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýOn your YR2000 731, the lever mechanism moves the entire table up/down - it¡¯s not supposed to tilt the table. ?You do not want to screw around with the temple bolts to eliminate snipe. ?And be careful with the jam nut - those bolts are very soft steel and it¡¯s easy to fracture them into two pieces if you start reefing hard on the jam nut - I¡¯ve done it.?? Once the outfeed table is properly aligned to be coplanar to the infeed table, just lower the outfeed table, and bring it upward. ?Always adjust it in the ¡°going up¡± mode. Brian has a good starting suggestion as a starting point for outfeed table height. ?But you may need to make small adjustments with trial/error testing to results on scrap material. I¡¯ll quote from my published writeup: "In practice, the ideal way to set the outfeed table height is to adjust it so that the material coming off the infeed table does not produce snipe, nor does it get hung up on the leading edge of the outfeed table. There is a range of a few thousandths in table elevation where this condition exists, and adjusting the outfeed table height within that small range can have some tiny impact on flatness of jointed results." David Best DBestWorkshop@... https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/ https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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Re: Phase Perfect Simple
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýI agree with Aaron. ?I guess we now have an answer to the advisability of the PP Simple for lower HP Felder setups. ?Don¡¯t go there.David Best DBestWorkshop@... https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/ https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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Re: CF 731 Pro Jointer Snipe / Adjustment
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýHi Greg,My comment was in general when material catches on outfeed all of a sudden while machine has been working fine. Since you are getting a snipe I would do what Brian recommended. Imran Malik On Sep 23, 2024, at 4:31?PM, Greg Goldin via groups.io <goldinarch@...> wrote:
? Hi Brian and Imran,
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First, thanks for the super-speedy, and helpful replies.
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I will try jointing a different piece of wood before playing around with the height adjustment.
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And, I'll aim for .001" below the cutting diameter of the knives if I have make the adjustment.
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Much appreciated.
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Greg
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Re: CF 731 Pro Jointer Snipe / Adjustment
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýGreg,Snipe on trailing edge in general is an indicator of the outfeed table being lower than the arc of cut it top dead center of the blade. As the material leaves the infeed table it would cause the snipe as the outfeed is lower. I would do exactly what Brian said and hopefully that would take care of it. I am mostly responding to mention that, on occasion, I have had pieces that catch on the outfeed table on approach. In my case it has been due to the bow in the piece. The issue goes away on subsequent passes. So just a word of caution, try again or joint a different board before any adjustments. Imran Malik On Sep 23, 2024, at 2:55?PM, Greg Goldin via groups.io <goldinarch@...> wrote:
? Hi All,
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My YR 2000 CF 731 suddenly decided to give me snipe on the trailing end of my work piece. This began after I made adjustments to the temple bolts to fix an issue of my work piece hitting the leading edge of the outfeed table. This occurred, as they say, sua sponte. Not sure why, but spent the requisite mountain of hours chasing the issue down. I got my cutter block parallel to the outfeed table within .001", following David Best's technique, using my One Way gauge. After that adjustment, I tightened the table down, and got a perfect, dead-flat cut. Admittedly, the board I was jointing was only 13" long, so that was probably a poor test. But, still, I thought I was done! Then I noticed that the temple bolt closest to the cutter block was wobbly when the table wasn't secured. I realized that the jam nut beneath the machine chassis wasn't cinched. I removed the interior cover plate and found the jam nut, and carefully tightened it. I then lowered the bed, tightened the cam lever, and took another cut. SNIPE at the last 1" or so of the board. Curses. I checked the cutter block. It was still within .001 of parallel. I checked the knife height, using my straight edge. It contacted the knives and moved about 6mm. Way too much.
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I talked to Felder this morning and their advice was to tinker very gingerly with the temple bolt closest to the cutter block, but I assume this will only drive the outfeed table out of parallel to the cutter block.
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Should I start the whole process from the beginning and double-check that the cutter block and outfeed are parallel, and then attempt to set the outfeed at the correct height (per David Best .039") relative to the cutter block by using the lever mechanism beneath the outfeed table? Does that lever mechanism raise/lower the entire table in plane along the ways, or does it merely tilt the table relative to the cutter block, to produce convex or concave cuts. The latter is what the original owner's manual says it does and what the Felder tech told me it does, but doesn't seem likely given how the table is secured in the ways.
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Is there a cure for what ails my jointer?
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Thanks for the help!
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Greg
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Re: Phase Perfect Simple
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýHi Bruce, Felder does not have regenerative braking. PTS models do not have line filters. Since I don¡¯t know the details of the PTS design I can only speculate that the issue is due to the missing line filters. I would inquire from PP if line filter can be added externally. Imran Malik On Sep 23, 2024, at 2:30?PM, Bruce Gordon via groups.io <bruce@...> wrote:
? I'm having some issues with the PP PTS005 I installed yesterday running a 2012 AD741 with digi-drive that fits in this thread. I had been using a rotary phase converter to run the AD741 with no problems but I'm adding a 5hp 3 phase compressor that will run more continuously with a CNC and wanted something more efficient and quieter. The new PP PTS005 starts the AD741 with no problem but when I turn it off and the brake kicks in, I get a 'voltage unbalance fault' on the PP unit and it shuts down, I have to cycle it to bring it back up. I spoke to their tech today and he said I needed the enterprise unit for that regenerative load caused by the brake to solve that issue. He said I could just ignore it as long as I don't mind having to cycle the PP unit every time or they offered the trade-up for the enterprise. I'm currently chewing on that $1400 upgrade, he also mentioned I'd get better longevity with the enterprise but I'm not sure that's not just some sales fluff.
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Re: Thoughts on purchasing older F7 shapers?
Imran,?
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Thanks, yes I've been very happy with the setup. For my particular wants/needs (mostly doors and windows), it hits a nice sweet spot of precision, capability, and price point.?
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Jared,?
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Thanks for sharing that TI-120, that's a slick setup. I considered the TI-120 as I liked the idea of the tilting spindle, but for whatever reason, SCM does not offer it with the TL Pro-10 package.?
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Kory,?
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I'm sure you'll be happy working with either the F7/F-700/T55ES. The F-700 part of my KS-700 works great, I built a fair number of windows/doors with it and it helped to pay for the TF-130.
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I totally understand wanting to control the footprint of the machine. At ~10 feet long, my TF-130 definitely has a footprint. If you go with a new build F-700 I'd strongly recommend getting the table extension mounting bars. Likewise, if you opt for a T55ES, make sure to order either the Felder bars or Aigner bars so you can extend your in-feed/out-feed support if/when needed.?
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Also, don't discount the machines with all-cast iron tops. While the aluminum sliding tables can be handy, they can also be challenging to dial in perfectly, and limit some of your options for aftermarket accessories. With a solid cast iron top, you can easily perform cross-grain work with the Aigner Contermax for cabinet doors and door/window work using dowel joinery. If you need to process pieces with deeper tenons, you can always add the Rangate tenoning table at a later time.?
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Regarding tilting spindles, my KF-700 has a tilting spindle and my Profil 45 Z had a tilting spindle, and I was concerned that I would miss it on my TF-130, but thus far it hasn't been an issue. I did acquire the and it has worked great for bevels. With a range of -47 degrees (tilting backwards) to +69 degrees (tilting forward), it exceeds the range of most tilting spindles. I am aware there are some interesting tricks which can be played with panel raising cutters on tilting spindles, but for my work it hasn't been necessary.?
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One last thing to consider is the fences. The current Felder "230" fence is nice and sturdy once locked down, but it can be a little fussy to dial in to exactly where you want it. If I were to start over with a F700 or F900, one of the first things I'd do is to put a DRO on it to facilitate setups. It's unclear to me whether the T55ES fence comes with digital readouts, if not it might be worth asking if bumping to a Nova machine might give you that option. Once properly calibrated, the DROs on my TF-130 are spot-on, to the point where I can just trust the settings and generally don't run test cuts any more.?
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Either way, it sounds like you'll be making a great upgrade, I'm excited to hear what you come up with and how you like it.?
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Tom Gensmer Heritage Home Renewals, LLC Minneapolis, MN |
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Re: Phase Perfect Simple
I'm having some issues with the PP PTS005 I installed yesterday running a 2012 AD741 with digi-drive that fits in this thread. I had been using a rotary phase converter to run the AD741 with no problems but I'm adding a 5hp 3 phase compressor that will run more continuously with a CNC and wanted something more efficient and quieter. The new PP PTS005 starts the AD741 with no problem but when I turn it off and the brake kicks in, I get a 'voltage unbalance fault' on the PP unit and it shuts down, I have to cycle it to bring it back up. I spoke to their tech today and he said I needed the enterprise unit for that regenerative load caused by the brake to solve that issue. He said I could just ignore it as long as I don't mind having to cycle the PP unit every time or they offered the trade-up for the enterprise. I'm currently chewing on that $1400 upgrade, he also mentioned I'd get better longevity with the enterprise but I'm not sure that's not just some sales fluff. |
Bruce Gordon
imran
David P. Best
Tom Gensmer