Re: Sheet good recommendations
This has been a really interesting post, ?have a similar project coming up so thanks to all who have contributed so far.
Lucky, have you considered doing a Wood Review article? Also, what plywood supplier did you use? I¡¯ve been struggling with good quality plywood ever since Sharp Plywood went belly up.
Thanks.
Murray
|
Re: Sheet good recommendations
Andy,
You are absolutely correct that one of the major deficiencies of Fusion for routine cabinet work is a lack of fenestration hardware libraries. ?Jeez, they have just recently issue a library of screw/bolt/nut fasteners for mechanical assemblies. ?Don¡¯t expect Fusion to go after the KCD or Mosaik market - it¡¯s just not in their blood. ?I think Fusion is a decent 3D platform for ad-hoc work, but if I were grinding out kitchens on a daily basis, it would be challenging. ?
You are left with the challenge of creating your own hardware library from CAD models you download from the various vendors like Blum, Grass, Accuride, etc. ?The models are out on the web as STEP files, but they are not functional (if that even matters to you), and you have to know where to look, download them manually, and manage the hardware catalog on your own. ?McMaster has a lot of stuff like this too, but you have to call them to find out exactly who the manufacturer is and the specific model numbers, and of course they can change the supplier without notice. ?I maintain one project file in Fusion that has all the commonly used hardware items like drawer slides, butterfly hinges, and even pocket screw cavities and Festool dominos, but it¡¯s a pain to manage. ?Seems like every time a bath vanity comes up, I don¡¯t have the right size slide in my library. ?So the project file builds and builds one item at a time based on use.
As for your question about using parameters to drive different hardware choices etc., it is possible, but it gets really complicated putting that kind of logic in the parameter file. ?Instead, Fusion just introduced a ¡°Configurations¡± capability that provides some of the features you¡¯d want to accomplish this. ?It¡¯s essentially a radio-button and fill-in-the-box type of front end that lets you vary the presence/absence of components, and feature creation elements (extrude, pattern, etc). ?But it¡¯s only available in the paid license version. ?I¡¯ve used it and it¡¯s a terrific addition with a lot of applicability to the woodworking world, but again, it¡¯s no KCD or Cabinet Vision.
There is one add-on that you might want to explore. ?It¡¯s a licensed extension called CS Furniture Tools: ?
I have played with it, but it¡¯s only supported on Windows 64bit systems, which means for me to access it I have to run Fusion under Parallels on the Mac which I detest doing. ?If you are on a Windows platform it might go a long way toward your needs. ?Check it out.
Hope this helps.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 29, 2024, at 1:02?PM, Andy <andy.raynor08@...> wrote:?
David - you are a wealth of information, thank you for sharing.?
I¡¯ve recently decided to add a cnc machine to the shop. I have a passing knowledge of fusion in that I can make a parametric model and etc.
One of the more daunting aspects of using Fusion as my go to software for design is that I cannot seem to find a reliable library for joinery and hardware for cabinet construction. ?Mozaik, KCD and others have Blum/Salice/Lamello/Festool built right into their models.
If I¡¯m just modeling a piece of furniture, then those aspects aren¡¯t as important, to me anyway. ?But if I¡¯m batching out a kitchen or closet then I want the cnc to place pilot holes, hinge cup holes and etc, as well as cut to dimension. ?I can¡¯t figure out an extension or library that actually contains hardware and joinery. ?I saw your video on how to incorporate Blum drawer slides into Fusion, perhaps I just have to suck it up and download all of the various CAD files (if they exist)
Do you know if there is a way, within Fusion 360 to change (parametrically) the hardware based on stock thickness or stock width? ?For instance, within Mozaik if I size a cabinet up, Mozaik will scribe a hardware line for my Lamello every 300mm. ?And if the stock thickness changes, so does the relevant Blum slide¡..
Ultimately I¡¯d like to ditch Mozaik and rely on Fusion to design and produce G code for the cnc, with Fusion having a parametric model of each cabinet type (base, tall, wall etc) with the ability to change hardware and joinery options as a parameter. ?If there is indeed a way to do this, I¡¯d happy signup and pay for a class (of classes) on how to.
Andy
Hi Tim,
My YouTube channel has a section and playlist devoted to Fusion 360 and its use in woodworking applications.? You can find it listed here:
Most of the tutorials I have created thus far are more advanced and illustrate the use of components in building an assembly and using joints to create functional drawer slides, etc. ?
I am working on a new tutorial series the is geared more to the woodworker using Fusion to design cabinets and bookshelves.? For this I will be using parameter-driven design workflows. ?
All but the most simple Fusion models I develop are driven by parameters so that changes can be easily made.? When the parameters include a bunch of logic and math, I prefer to manage the parameters external to Fusion and bring them into the model with an extension called ¡°Parameter I/O¡± available from the Fusion add-on web site.? To manage a complex set of parameter I use a spreadsheet that can output the required CSV file for import into Fusion.
For cabinets and bookshelves I have developed a spreadsheet template where I fill out various aspects of the cabinet design.? This version will handle a cabinet with up to six drawers or doors, and up to 5 divider shelves between the doors/drawers.? Here is a screenshot of the basic cabinet box specification which can be enter in imperial or metric - the yellow boxes are where the specifications are entered:
<ShotiMac_1999.jpeg>
The next section of the spreadsheet specifies the layout of the drawer/shelves with the heights specified as ratios between the drawer/door heights and the spreadsheet does the calculations to fit in the cabinet box as previously specified:
<ShotiMac_2001.jpeg>
And finally there is a section where the drawer/door and shelf aspects are specified including target reveals, setbacks, drawer slides, drawer box construction details are specified:
<ShotiMac_2002.jpeg>
The spreadsheet includes extensive help and input validation and a set of buttons to generate a sample cabinet, and output the parameters for input into Fusion: <ShotiMac_2004.jpeg>
As an example, here is the parameter file generated by the above set of cabinet specifications:
<ShotiMac_2005.jpeg>
And here are some examples of how the Fusion 360 model is altered by different parameters.? This is the sample cabinet:
<ShotiMac_2006.jpeg>
Below are two cabinets that would be typical of a kitchen base cabinet, one being a bank of 4 drawers, the other having one drawer and a door below:
<ShotiMac_2010.jpeg>
<ShotiMac_2009.jpeg>
And a simple bookcase with equally spaced shelves:
<ShotiMac_2011.jpeg>
Anyway that¡¯s where I¡¯m headed with this.? Let me know if you have questions or would like to dialog about this in a DM.
Hello to all,
Very interesting thread indeed. I am also in the early planning stages of a similar cabinet project(s). I'm also considering what materials are available here in Ohio.
David I am also using F360 for the the design stage. I am trying to establish a typical left and right side parametric model to use use with all the various cabinets I plan to build. Your drawings are very interesting and I will try to study them closely...the parameters in particular. If you have these listed on any of your website project files please let me know. I would to like to compare where i am going with mine.
I will try to post my progress as I can.
Thanks to all!
Tim Pond
|
Re: Sheet good recommendations
Looking good Imran!
?
?
This was my first WW project, almost 30 yrs ago. 3/4¡± ply, 38¡± wide shelf, with 1¡± deep solid wood edging. No sag.
?
On Jan 29, 2024, at 10:55?AM, Jim Fleming <jameshfleming@...> wrote:
?
With regard to Lucky's concerns about shelf length, I suggest looking for the online "Sagulator" program to avoid saggy shelves.? It has options for material types and dimensions, fastening and construction
choices etc.? It has worked for me, including full loads of books.
|
Re: Sheet good recommendations
David - you are a wealth of information, thank you for sharing.?
I¡¯ve recently decided to add a cnc machine to the shop. I have a passing knowledge of fusion in that I can make a parametric model and etc.
One of the more daunting aspects of using Fusion as my go to software for design is that I cannot seem to find a reliable library for joinery and hardware for cabinet construction. ?Mozaik, KCD and others have Blum/Salice/Lamello/Festool built right into their models.
If I¡¯m just modeling a piece of furniture, then those aspects aren¡¯t as important, to me anyway. ?But if I¡¯m batching out a kitchen or closet then I want the cnc to place pilot holes, hinge cup holes and etc, as well as cut to dimension. ?I can¡¯t figure out an extension or library that actually contains hardware and joinery. ?I saw your video on how to incorporate Blum drawer slides into Fusion, perhaps I just have to suck it up and download all of the various CAD files (if they exist)
Do you know if there is a way, within Fusion 360 to change (parametrically) the hardware based on stock thickness or stock width? ?For instance, within Mozaik if I size a cabinet up, Mozaik will scribe a hardware line for my Lamello every 300mm. ?And if the stock thickness changes, so does the relevant Blum slide¡..
Ultimately I¡¯d like to ditch Mozaik and rely on Fusion to design and produce G code for the cnc, with Fusion having a parametric model of each cabinet type (base, tall, wall etc) with the ability to change hardware and joinery options as a parameter. ?If there is indeed a way to do this, I¡¯d happy signup and pay for a class (of classes) on how to.
Andy
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Tim,
My YouTube channel has a section and playlist devoted to Fusion 360 and its use in woodworking applications.? You can find it listed here:
Most of the tutorials I have created thus far are more advanced and illustrate the use of components in building an assembly and using joints to create functional drawer slides, etc. ?
I am working on a new tutorial series the is geared more to the woodworker using Fusion to design cabinets and bookshelves.? For this I will be using parameter-driven design workflows. ?
All but the most simple Fusion models I develop are driven by parameters so that changes can be easily made.? When the parameters include a bunch of logic and math, I prefer to manage the parameters external to Fusion and bring them into the model with an extension called ¡°Parameter I/O¡± available from the Fusion add-on web site.? To manage a complex set of parameter I use a spreadsheet that can output the required CSV file for import into Fusion.
For cabinets and bookshelves I have developed a spreadsheet template where I fill out various aspects of the cabinet design.? This version will handle a cabinet with up to six drawers or doors, and up to 5 divider shelves between the doors/drawers.? Here is a screenshot of the basic cabinet box specification which can be enter in imperial or metric - the yellow boxes are where the specifications are entered:
The next section of the spreadsheet specifies the layout of the drawer/shelves with the heights specified as ratios between the drawer/door heights and the spreadsheet does the calculations to fit in the cabinet box as previously specified:
And finally there is a section where the drawer/door and shelf aspects are specified including target reveals, setbacks, drawer slides, drawer box construction details are specified:
The spreadsheet includes extensive help and input validation and a set of buttons to generate a sample cabinet, and output the parameters for input into Fusion:
As an example, here is the parameter file generated by the above set of cabinet specifications:
And here are some examples of how the Fusion 360 model is altered by different parameters.? This is the sample cabinet:
Below are two cabinets that would be typical of a kitchen base cabinet, one being a bank of 4 drawers, the other having one drawer and a door below:
And a simple bookcase with equally spaced shelves:
Anyway that¡¯s where I¡¯m headed with this.? Let me know if you have questions or would like to dialog about this in a DM.
Hello to all,
Very interesting thread indeed. I am also in the early planning stages of a similar cabinet project(s). I'm also considering what materials are available here in Ohio.
David I am also using F360 for the the design stage. I am trying to establish a typical left and right side parametric model to use use with all the various cabinets I plan to build. Your drawings are very interesting and I will try to study them closely...the parameters in particular. If you have these listed on any of your website project files please let me know. I would to like to compare where i am going with mine.
I will try to post my progress as I can.
Thanks to all!
Tim Pond
|
#forsale Profil 45 Z X-Motion (2022 model)
#forsale
Greetings Group,? ?Due to a Shop re-organization, I find myself in the position of needing to sell my gently used Profil 45 Z to accommodate the new layout. Please find the relevant information below:?
Felder Profil 45 Z X-Motion shaper
¡ª Product web page:??
¡ª 2022 build
¡ª 7.3kW 10hp motor
¡ª X-Motion touch screen control
¡ª 1-1/4¡± spindle with 140mm under the nut
¡ª Spindle speeds of 3500/4500/600/8000/10,000 rpm?
¡ª Shaper hood with 250mm tooling capacity
¡ª Quick clamping of the shaper hood
¡ª Euro curved shaper hood
¡ª 2050mm length X-Roll sliding table
¡ª 1300mm Outrigger
¡ª 2600mm crosscut fence with flip stop and extension?
¡ª Outrigger cart
¡ª External spindle lock?
¡ª Aigner ¡°INTEGRAL¡± shaper fences 500mm?
¡ª Factory preparation for tenoning hood for cutter heads up to 350mm diameter with speed control at 4500rpm. Also, the cast iron top is Factory borer/tapped to accept the Aigner BowMould 220mm curved moulding hood.?
¡ª ?Table extension mounting bars
¡ª Swing-away power feed mount
?
In addition to the Felder machine, it would also include:?
¡ª 2x AirTight clamps (with color-coordinated handles!)
¡ª Co-Matic DS-400 Smart Stand power feeder with digital display and urethane wheels
?
¡ª Machine was delivered December 2022
¡ª Selling due to needing a different machine to fit in new shop configuration
¡ª Includes owner¡¯s manual and all original paperwork
¡ª Includes extra drive belt (unused, bought ¡°just in case¡±)
¡ª Includes Felder shipping clips
¡ª I can built a pallet if needed
¡ª I can load onto a pallet if needed
¡ª I¡¯d prefer to sell locally, though I¡¯m happy to entertain shipping the machine for the right arrangment
?
Machine cast iron table:?
?
?
I have a video showing no run-out on the spindle, I can upload to YouTube.?
?
Photos of X-Motion touch screen:?
?
?
?
Wide shot of machine with manual safety device in place:?
?
?
Wide shot of machine:?
?
?
Aigner ¡°INTEGRAL¡± fence plates:
?
?
Aigner fence with bars deployed:?
?
?
Wide shot with power feeder in place:?
?
?
Digital indicator on power feed:?
?
?
Outrigger on outrigger cart:?
?
?
?
Wide shot of machine with outrigger, fence, and pneumatic clamps:?
?
?
Close-up of pneumatic plumbing installed in sliding table:?
?
?
Regulator for pneumatic clamps:?
?
?
Machine info plate:?
?
?
External spindle lock:?
?
?
Motor, spindle and belt:?
?
?
Owner¡¯s Manual:?
?
?
All-In, the above package would cost $37,304.00, not including freight or taxes, add those in and the total would be closer to $40k+.?
If you're interested in the machine please reach out to me via e-mail and we can discuss pricing, logistics, etc... I'm happy to demonstrate the functions of the machine via FaceTime if you're interested.? ?Thanks for looking,? -- Tom Gensmer Heritage Home Renewals, LLC Minneapolis, MN
|
Re: Switching between imperial and metric
?Is there a best language?
Jonathan, ?
Yes, there are two:
? ? and?
In the mean time, I like using bushels and pecks and prefer drinking Imperial Pints of John Smith Bitters to a 12oz can of Miller Lite.
I think you need?. ?
LOL
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
|
Re: Sheet good recommendations
Hi Tim,
My YouTube channel has a section and playlist devoted to Fusion 360 and its use in woodworking applications. ?You can find it listed here:
Most of the tutorials I have created thus far are more advanced and illustrate the use of components in building an assembly and using joints to create functional drawer slides, etc. ?
I am working on a new tutorial series the is geared more to the woodworker using Fusion to design cabinets and bookshelves. ?For this I will be using parameter-driven design workflows. ?
All but the most simple Fusion models I develop are driven by parameters so that changes can be easily made. ?When the parameters include a bunch of logic and math, I prefer to manage the parameters external to Fusion and bring them into the model with an extension called ¡°Parameter I/O¡± available from the Fusion add-on web site. ?To manage a complex set of parameter I use a spreadsheet that can output the required CSV file for import into Fusion.
For cabinets and bookshelves I have developed a spreadsheet template where I fill out various aspects of the cabinet design. ?This version will handle a cabinet with up to six drawers or doors, and up to 5 divider shelves between the doors/drawers. ?Here is a screenshot of the basic cabinet box specification which can be enter in imperial or metric - the yellow boxes are where the specifications are entered:
The next section of the spreadsheet specifies the layout of the drawer/shelves with the heights specified as ratios between the drawer/door heights and the spreadsheet does the calculations to fit in the cabinet box as previously specified:
And finally there is a section where the drawer/door and shelf aspects are specified including target reveals, setbacks, drawer slides, drawer box construction details are specified:
The spreadsheet includes extensive help and input validation and a set of buttons to generate a sample cabinet, and output the parameters for input into Fusion:
As an example, here is the parameter file generated by the above set of cabinet specifications:
And here are some examples of how the Fusion 360 model is altered by different parameters. ?This is the sample cabinet:
Below are two cabinets that would be typical of a kitchen base cabinet, one being a bank of 4 drawers, the other having one drawer and a door below:
And a simple bookcase with equally spaced shelves:
Anyway that¡¯s where I¡¯m headed with this. ?Let me know if you have questions or would like to dialog about this in a DM.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 29, 2024, at 8:20?AM, Tim Pond <timapond@...> wrote:
Hello to all,
Very interesting thread indeed. I am also in the early planning stages of a similar cabinet project(s). I'm also considering what materials are available here in Ohio.
David I am also using F360 for the the design stage. I am trying to establish a typical left and right side parametric model to use use with all the various cabinets I plan to build. Your drawings are very interesting and I will try to study them closely...the parameters in particular. If you have these listed on any of your website project files please let me know. I would to like to compare where i am going with mine.
I will try to post my progress as I can.
Thanks to all!
Tim Pond
|
Re: Switching between imperial and metric
When switching to Metric, you need to also change the way you look at things, Don't try and and make a 914.4mm (36") cabinet, the standard would be 900mm, but to make it closer to what a customer would be expecting, 910mm.
This is one of the biggest blockers people seem to think about, but its the wrong way of thinking about the changeover. Also working with balanced pannels becomes easier, sheetgoods etc.
?
Oh, and get a FastCap Yellow Metric/Imperial, the accuracy can be doubted, but as long as its consistent, its a great tool to use.
|
Re: Sheet good recommendations
This was my first WW project, almost 30 yrs ago. 3/4¡± ply, 38¡± wide shelf, with 1¡± deep solid wood edging. No sag.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 29, 2024, at 10:55?AM, Jim Fleming <jameshfleming@...> wrote: ? With regard to Lucky's concerns about shelf length, I suggest looking for the online "Sagulator" program to avoid saggy shelves.? It has options for material types and dimensions, fastening and construction choices etc.? It has worked for me, including full loads of books.
<20190916_171353.jpg> <20200207_103316.jpg>
|
Re: Switching between imperial and metric
Shaper cutter dimensions shouldn't matter any more than saw blade dimensions or sand paper grits.? You will still set stops, fences and depths.
One size fits all.? Hmmm.
Although I use both system, saying metric is preferred for its simplicity is like saying McDonalds is better food.? Is there a best language?? In fact, I can visualize a pound-foot better than a newton-meter and a horse power better than a kw. I enjoy variety like the English stone, equine hand and RCH for really close work.? Base 12 is as effective as base 10.? Anyone that ever shared a sandwich can use fractions.??
Errors creep in when trying to use both systems on the same project.? Ask the guys who built the Hubble telescope.? Show your math.? Stick with the units your customer uses or what is already established like working on a Yamaha engine.? If all you want is efficiency, lets go back to Whitworth.?
In the mean time, I like using bushels and pecks and prefer drinking Imperial Pints of John Smith Bitters to a 12oz can of Miller Lite.??
|
Re: Switching between imperial and metric
As a historical footnote, between 1959 and Dec 31, 2022 there were two different ¡°feet¡± used in the USA. The original ¡°foot¡± was defined in 1893 as exactly 1200/3937 meters, or approximately 0.304,800,6 meters. In 1959 Congress redefined a ¡°foot¡± as exactly 0.3048 meters. The old unit continued to be used in surveying and legacy applications, and was known as the ¡°survey foot¡±. The new unit was referred to as the ¡°international foot¡±.
The ¡°survey foot¡± was legally discontinued as of 1 Jan 2023.
The difference is moot in a woodworking shop, of course, but if you are making maps or building highways it matters.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Re: Sheet good recommendations
Hello to all,
Very interesting thread indeed. I am also in the early planning stages of a similar cabinet project(s). I'm also considering what materials are available here in Ohio.
David I am also using F360 for the the design stage. I am trying to establish a typical left and right side parametric model to use use with all the various cabinets I plan to build. Your drawings are very interesting and I will try to study them closely...the parameters in particular. If you have these listed on any of your website project files please let me know. I would to like to compare where i am going with mine.
I will try to post my progress as I can.
Thanks to all!
Tim Pond
|
Re: Sheet good recommendations
With regard to Lucky's concerns about shelf length, I suggest looking for the online "Sagulator" program to avoid saggy shelves.? It has options for material types and dimensions, fastening and construction choices etc.? It has worked for me, including full loads of books.
|
Re: Basic spindle moulder usage question
On 28-1-2024 20:56, Bird Cupps wrote: Dave, please don¡¯t ever stop ¡°being dumb¡± and posting questions. I¡¯m following along and appreciate what you¡¯ve posted. Yes, some of the people here have considerable experience and knowledge but there are also people like me who are counting the numbers of times I¡¯ve used a spindle moulder on one hand. (May get to the second hand this week.) Some woodworkers are on their second hand the moment they have to count beyond 3... So yes don't ever consider questions dumb, especially on (safe and sound) working methods. Kind regards, Jonathan, who can still count to 10 using only two hands ;-)
|
Re: Switching between imperial and metric
Living i Ireland? metric is the official standard but lots of folks still use imperial . Some local softwoods may be labelled 2" x 1",r whatever, but in fact will be the nearest? metric equivalent Real PITA,
Strangely cheap tooling from the far east will be in imperial (As its mostly for the American market I suppose) which the supplier will convert to metic. The presence of strange metric dimensions may? reveal this
Of my age I was taught imperial in school. Times table up to 12 times. As the old British currency had 12 pennies to one shilling we had to learn how to convert large numbers of pence into ?.S.D. This facility with 12 is very convenient (12Inches to 1 foot) so no trouble convertinh 106" into feet and inches
--
Paul Mc Cann
|
Re: Switching between imperial and metric
Wow, never heard of this. Thanks for sharing Rich.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 29, 2024, at 7:53?AM, Rich M. <rmarkiewicz@...> wrote: ?Pirates of the Caribbean (Metric Edition)
dang pirates ;-)
|
Re: Switching between imperial and metric
Pirates of the Caribbean (Metric Edition)
dang pirates ;-)
|
Re: Sheet good recommendations
Michael,
I created a design in Fusion that mimics what you presented on FOG, but goes at the individual modules in a different manner. ?Everything is driven by parameters for easy modification. ?My goal was to move away from a face frame for all the reasons I covereed in my previous DM. ?Here is how I approaced it.
First, the basic module from which the entire structure is assembled. ?A plywood box with a 12mm thick inset back in a dado and recessed 2mm from the rim of the box, using pocket screws at the joints. ?I would reinforce these joints with two 6mm dominos as alignment aids and to add some strength. ?
6mm thick solid hardwood edging applied prior to construction:
The sides would have a partial edging ? the width of the plywood - I would probably do this full width and then dado out half of the edging.:
With the doors (I used 72mm wide styles & rails):
Section view with top panel turned off showing door-to-box with a 1.5mm reveal:
The entire structure is built from 16 identical modules - this dimensions out to 141¡± tall (providing for a 4¡± toe-kick in the 12-foot space), and exactly 18-feet long.
And once assembled, filler 6mm edgebanding filler strip is applied between the boxes:
Filler strip colored red for emphasis:
The width of the vertical edgebands (3 pieces) totals 72mm to match the style/rail width - which give the impression of a faceframe in terms of width.
I didn¡¯t put in the shelves, but I like where you were headed with this style:
Anyway, there¡¯s some thoughts about. how this might be achieved to provide a ¡°faceframe look¡± but without having to actually make face frames and get them all precsely aligned. ?FItting a faceframe to a cabinet really complicates alignment of all the surfaces. ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 28, 2024, at 11:36?PM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi Michael: ? Thanks for your reply. I¡¯ve already sent you more photos, ideas and plans for my library, for what they are worth. I¡¯m excited to hear what others come up with. ? I¡¯m not sure which ¡°left corner¡± you¡¯re referring to? There were many hollow columns in this project, at the ends of each unit, either side of the door and window. I wanted to include a couple of hidden drawers,
up high and accessible only with the ladder, but the cost got in the way. And there was a much larger void in the column (right of window) which is likely what you mean by ¡°left corner¡±. It was 500mm x 250mm, and was crying out for cut-away, and timber panels
with glass shelving and LED backlighting. Again the budget got in the way. So be it. ? I loved that project. I charged $35,000AUD nearly 10 years ago. At the time I should have charged $60,000AUD. But what a project!
? By the way, David B. helped me enormously with that project. It was my first major piece after buying the Kappa 400 and Profil 45. Thanks David! ?
Dr David Luckensmeyer ?
Hi Lucky, ??? I appreciate the thoughts.? The rendering is a "first thought".? You've raised some excellent questions.? I've sent you a private message for more details on your project.? I expect I'll go through several more iterations in SketchUp before I move forward.?
I'm happy to get input and insights from folks here. ??? I'm curious -- what did you with the left corner in the project you show below?? Is that dead space?? A hidden cabinet?
On 1/28/2024 4:08 PM, David Luckensmeyer wrote:
Hi Michael: ? This looks like a great project. I note that the main thrust of your post is about board product selection, which I can¡¯t help you with as I¡¯m based in Australia. However, there are some similarities to your
project with a solid wood library fit-out I did in 2016 and thought perhaps I could provide some inspiration. ? Some feedback on your description: ? Half inch back I would increase this to a 3/4¡± back. Half inch does not allow for reliable rebate + glue + screw from the case sides, nor does it provide a ¡°life-time¡± robust back that will not bow, warp, separate (etc.)
from the cabinet back over time. It looks clear that you will be installing your library units permanently (reference to building a base onsite, plus the ladder usually needs something that ain¡¯t moving), which means you¡¯ll want to level the base and install
the case units plumb with a wall that will most certainly not be flat or plumb itself. This means you¡¯ll have gaps (sometimes largish gaps) behind a significant portion of your installation. If the backs somehow delaminate from your case sides, there is no
scope whatsoever for rectifications. I would not want to take such a risk with 1/2¡± material. ? Adjustable shelves Adjustable shelves are nice, but I would counsel against them for a library of this size. Fixed shelving makes each case unit much stronger, and the fact that you can nail/screw the back into each shelf is
a bonus. The library I did was only 2850mm high, so not quite as tall as your project but mine had an aggregate width much wider than your 18¡¯. For a library of this size, in my opinion, complete freedom to arrange books with maximum flexibility is most desirable.
Yes you¡¯ll pack in more books if you size shelving exactly for novels, and shelving for a reference collection, but I¡¯d rather miss out on a little saving of space for the flexibility of arranging books in whatever way you or the client wants. I tried to counsel
my client to have a very large shelf at the bottom (350-400mm tall) but it was rejected for a uniform 300mm spacing between all shelving. I¡¯d be happy to share detailed plans with you offsite if that is helpful. ? Unit widths You don¡¯t reference the width of your units, but I suspect they are much wider than I would typically recommend. I have found that even with a substantial stiffener, unsupported shelving spans of more than
900mm always sag without steel reinforcement. I have made dozens of bookcases over the decades, from 1200mm, 900mm, 800mm, 700mm, and 600mm widths. You probably have too and I don¡¯t mean to sh4t on your own experiences. For bookcases which absolutely
must have wider shelves, I incorporate an upright which is housed into the front of each shelf, directly behind the two doors. This upright still allows books to stack on the shelves unbroken (behind the upright), and said upright is invisible when the doors
are closed. This upright can be installed with fixed or movable shelving. For the 2016 library, I settled on 600mm widths. This was narrower than the client wanted, but the shelves exhibit minimal sag year after year. Something to consider. ? Unit depths Again, I know you didn¡¯t ask, so forgive me for answering the unasked questions (David B. knows I specialise in these sorts of answers! LOL), but most designers (not necessarily you) make bookcases which are
too deep. Almost all books fit on a 200mm or 8¡± depth shelf. Yes, there are some that require 220mm or more, but these are fairly rare. Now most bookcases are 300mm deep because the designer is working towards a ¡°one size fit all¡± solution, and also because
most bookcases are freestanding and need a wider (deeper) base. In your case, with fixed units, you have more choice to reduce the depth of your unit. 200mm would be radical. For my client, I chose a unit depth of 250 and a shelf depth of 210mm (with a 20mm
back) which was perfect (IMO). That said, your shelves have doors (mine did not) so there is no scope for the odd book ¡°sticking out¡±. In such a case, a 300mm deep unit might be warranted, less 20mm for doors, less 20mm for backs, for an overall shelf depth
of 260mm. ? Ladder My library also had a ladder and great care is needed to make sure there is sufficient strength and space for a horizontal sliding rail (unless your ladder is an independent A-frame)? I can visualise a horizontal
rail at the 2/3rds level (from the floor), more or less aligned with the solid ¡°mezzanine¡± shelf on the right of your rendering? I would be happy to explore this further if relevant including pictures of my bespoke ladder. ? Assembling units onsite Looking at your rendering, I see that you are making many units and ¡°stacking¡± them together. Definitely the right way to go. But I would look very closely at how you plan to make the installation look like
a single unit or a single installation. Very closely. ? For example, right now you have rendered horizontal face frames which are full-width, with upright face frames captured between them. I would strongly reconsider as you will have end-grain butted up against
end-grain, and it will very difficult to get this many frames aligned to your satisfaction. The render also shows a strongly horizontal emphasis ¨C which may be exactly what you want? I would push you to consider vertical elements, preferably full length as
a way of tying all the units together. ? I made individual units which were flanked by hollow (constructed) columns, which might be more elaborate than you have time or space for. But you should at least consider a full-length panel to cover the
ends of your unit so the entire upright looks like one. (Don¡¯t forget to make it extra wide so you can scribe it into the wall for a seamless look.) If you take up this advice, you¡¯ll have a double upright on the far left of your installation. That extra thickness
can look fantastic, and fit in perfectly with your internal uprights (if you take up my option of full-length vertical elements covering case sides). ? Currently, as you have rendered it ¨C you have a single upright on the outer or left side of the installation, but double uprights between each unit (since each unit has its own upright). Instead: butt each
case hard up against each other, and then apply (during installation) a prefinished full-length upright to cover the exposed edges. This will allow you to have uniform vertical elements, that are say 36mm wide, at the full left, and between units. ? I used a very large crown stapler and urethane glue to secure each unit to each other. My units had machined rebates on the front edge, read to receive the full-length vertical elements. After installation,
I glued and headless pinned the vertical face frames for a seamless look. ? If you like, I¡¯d be happy to take this discussion offsite and share more details. I have no vested interest whatsoever except to be helpful. Take what is helpful and ditch the rest!
? Pictures to follow. ? Before ? 
? After ? 
? Vertical Upright Detail ? 
? Sequence of shots showing the installation of units, crown staples, and installation of uprights in machined rebates¡ ? 
? 
? 
? 
?
Dr David Luckensmeyer ?
Hi folks, ??? I'm about to embark on a project to build a series of modular bookcases.? (To be clear, my projects move slow and are for personal use . . . I may be working on this into 2026.? Sigh).? The basic design is simple box out of 3/4" ply, with a 1/2" back.?
Rabbets on the top and back, dado for the bottom shelf.? There will be a face frame on the front, with glass doors. The plan is adjustable shelves.? I'm debating between sawtooth supports, commercial supports, and something custom where I use my ancient CNC
machine to cut pockets that the shelf supports will rest on.? The shelves will have a solid edging with a lip to stiffen them, probably attached with a few dominoes. ??? Here's a basic rendering: 
??? For the interior units, I may just pocket screw the face frame on.? For the end units I'll probably use dominoes so there is nothing exposed. ??? These will stack to form a library wall that will be 12 feet tall and 18 feet wide.? I didn't bother to show the toe-kick / base that will be built on site.? There will be a library ladder that will allow access to the upper units: 
??? I've started looking at what material I want to use for this.?? I'm based near Spokane, Washington.? My local suppliers are able to get materials from Columbia, Murphy, States, and Timber Products.? They can get materials from other vendors as well,
but these seem to the big ones.
??? I've used ApplyPly, Baltic Birch, and shop grade panels in the past.? While I like the price of cheaper imported panels, some shop grade birch I bought years ago was put together with bondo (or something similar) internally and destroyed some good cutters.?
I'd rather by better materials and not have to fight with them or damage my cutters. ??? Here are my questions:
- What kind of core would you get for this application???
- Should I stick with a veneer core???
- Is there an advantage (or disadvantage) to the various hybrid cores?? (I'm not sure I care whether the panels are dead flat, and I'm generally suspicious of MDF)
- If you've worked with materials from any of these manufacturers, are there materials that you would recommend, or specifically avoid?
??? I would also welcome any general advise on the best way to approach this project. ???
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: Sheet good recommendations
Hi Michael:
?
Thanks for your reply. I¡¯ve already sent you more photos, ideas and plans for my library, for what they are worth. I¡¯m excited to hear what others come up with.
?
I¡¯m not sure which ¡°left corner¡± you¡¯re referring to? There were many hollow columns in this project, at the ends of each unit, either side of the door and window. I wanted to include a couple of hidden drawers,
up high and accessible only with the ladder, but the cost got in the way. And there was a much larger void in the column (right of window) which is likely what you mean by ¡°left corner¡±. It was 500mm x 250mm, and was crying out for cut-away, and timber panels
with glass shelving and LED backlighting. Again the budget got in the way. So be it.
?
I loved that project. I charged $35,000AUD nearly 10 years ago. At the time I should have charged $60,000AUD. But what a project!
?
By the way, David B. helped me enormously with that project. It was my first major piece after buying the Kappa 400 and Profil 45. Thanks David!
?
Dr David Luckensmeyer
?
Hi Lucky,
??? I appreciate the thoughts.? The rendering is a "first thought".? You've raised some excellent questions.? I've sent you a private message for more details on your project.? I expect I'll go through several more iterations in SketchUp before I move forward.?
I'm happy to get input and insights from folks here.
??? I'm curious -- what did you with the left corner in the project you show below?? Is that dead space?? A hidden cabinet?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 1/28/2024 4:08 PM, David Luckensmeyer wrote:
Hi Michael:
?
This looks like a great project. I note that the main thrust of your post is about board product selection, which I can¡¯t help you with as I¡¯m based in Australia. However, there are some similarities to your
project with a solid wood library fit-out I did in 2016 and thought perhaps I could provide some inspiration.
?
Some feedback on your description:
?
Half inch back
I would increase this to a 3/4¡± back. Half inch does not allow for reliable rebate + glue + screw from the case sides, nor does it provide a ¡°life-time¡± robust back that will not bow, warp, separate (etc.)
from the cabinet back over time. It looks clear that you will be installing your library units permanently (reference to building a base onsite, plus the ladder usually needs something that ain¡¯t moving), which means you¡¯ll want to level the base and install
the case units plumb with a wall that will most certainly not be flat or plumb itself. This means you¡¯ll have gaps (sometimes largish gaps) behind a significant portion of your installation. If the backs somehow delaminate from your case sides, there is no
scope whatsoever for rectifications. I would not want to take such a risk with 1/2¡± material.
?
Adjustable shelves
Adjustable shelves are nice, but I would counsel against them for a library of this size. Fixed shelving makes each case unit much stronger, and the fact that you can nail/screw the back into each shelf is
a bonus. The library I did was only 2850mm high, so not quite as tall as your project but mine had an aggregate width much wider than your 18¡¯. For a library of this size, in my opinion, complete freedom to arrange books with maximum flexibility is most desirable.
Yes you¡¯ll pack in more books if you size shelving exactly for novels, and shelving for a reference collection, but I¡¯d rather miss out on a little saving of space for the flexibility of arranging books in whatever way you or the client wants. I tried to counsel
my client to have a very large shelf at the bottom (350-400mm tall) but it was rejected for a uniform 300mm spacing between all shelving. I¡¯d be happy to share detailed plans with you offsite if that is helpful.
?
Unit widths
You don¡¯t reference the width of your units, but I suspect they are much wider than I would typically recommend. I have found that even with a substantial stiffener, unsupported shelving spans of more than
900mm always sag without steel reinforcement. I have made dozens of bookcases over the decades, from 1200mm, 900mm, 800mm, 700mm, and 600mm widths. You probably have too and I don¡¯t mean to sh4t on your own experiences. For bookcases which absolutely
must have wider shelves, I incorporate an upright which is housed into the front of each shelf, directly behind the two doors. This upright still allows books to stack on the shelves unbroken (behind the upright), and said upright is invisible when the doors
are closed. This upright can be installed with fixed or movable shelving. For the 2016 library, I settled on 600mm widths. This was narrower than the client wanted, but the shelves exhibit minimal sag year after year. Something to consider.
?
Unit depths
Again, I know you didn¡¯t ask, so forgive me for answering the unasked questions (David B. knows I specialise in these sorts of answers! LOL), but most designers (not necessarily you) make bookcases which are
too deep. Almost all books fit on a 200mm or 8¡± depth shelf. Yes, there are some that require 220mm or more, but these are fairly rare. Now most bookcases are 300mm deep because the designer is working towards a ¡°one size fit all¡± solution, and also because
most bookcases are freestanding and need a wider (deeper) base. In your case, with fixed units, you have more choice to reduce the depth of your unit. 200mm would be radical. For my client, I chose a unit depth of 250 and a shelf depth of 210mm (with a 20mm
back) which was perfect (IMO). That said, your shelves have doors (mine did not) so there is no scope for the odd book ¡°sticking out¡±. In such a case, a 300mm deep unit might be warranted, less 20mm for doors, less 20mm for backs, for an overall shelf depth
of 260mm.
?
Ladder
My library also had a ladder and great care is needed to make sure there is sufficient strength and space for a horizontal sliding rail (unless your ladder is an independent A-frame)? I can visualise a horizontal
rail at the 2/3rds level (from the floor), more or less aligned with the solid ¡°mezzanine¡± shelf on the right of your rendering? I would be happy to explore this further if relevant including pictures of my bespoke ladder.
?
Assembling units onsite
Looking at your rendering, I see that you are making many units and ¡°stacking¡± them together. Definitely the right way to go. But I would look very closely at how you plan to make the installation look like
a single unit or a single installation. Very closely.
?
For example, right now you have rendered horizontal face frames which are full-width, with upright face frames captured between them. I would strongly reconsider as you will have end-grain butted up against
end-grain, and it will very difficult to get this many frames aligned to your satisfaction. The render also shows a strongly horizontal emphasis ¨C which may be exactly what you want? I would push you to consider vertical elements, preferably full length as
a way of tying all the units together.
?
I made individual units which were flanked by hollow (constructed) columns, which might be more elaborate than you have time or space for. But you should at least consider a full-length panel to cover the
ends of your unit so the entire upright looks like one. (Don¡¯t forget to make it extra wide so you can scribe it into the wall for a seamless look.) If you take up this advice, you¡¯ll have a double upright on the far left of your installation. That extra thickness
can look fantastic, and fit in perfectly with your internal uprights (if you take up my option of full-length vertical elements covering case sides).
?
Currently, as you have rendered it ¨C you have a single upright on the outer or left side of the installation, but double uprights between each unit (since each unit has its own upright). Instead: butt each
case hard up against each other, and then apply (during installation) a prefinished full-length upright to cover the exposed edges. This will allow you to have uniform vertical elements, that are say 36mm wide, at the full left, and between units.
?
I used a very large crown stapler and urethane glue to secure each unit to each other. My units had machined rebates on the front edge, read to receive the full-length vertical elements. After installation,
I glued and headless pinned the vertical face frames for a seamless look.
?
If you like, I¡¯d be happy to take this discussion offsite and share more details. I have no vested interest whatsoever except to be helpful. Take what is helpful and ditch the rest!
? Pictures to follow.
?
Before
?
?
After
?
?
Vertical Upright Detail
?
?
Sequence of shots showing the installation of units, crown staples, and installation of uprights in machined rebates¡
?
?
?
?
?
Dr David Luckensmeyer
?
Hi folks,
??? I'm about to embark on a project to build a series of modular bookcases.? (To be clear, my projects move slow and are for personal use . . . I may be working on this into 2026.? Sigh).? The basic design is simple box out of 3/4" ply, with a 1/2" back.?
Rabbets on the top and back, dado for the bottom shelf.? There will be a face frame on the front, with glass doors. The plan is adjustable shelves.? I'm debating between sawtooth supports, commercial supports, and something custom where I use my ancient CNC
machine to cut pockets that the shelf supports will rest on.? The shelves will have a solid edging with a lip to stiffen them, probably attached with a few dominoes.
??? Here's a basic rendering:
??? For the interior units, I may just pocket screw the face frame on.? For the end units I'll probably use dominoes so there is nothing exposed.
??? These will stack to form a library wall that will be 12 feet tall and 18 feet wide.? I didn't bother to show the toe-kick / base that will be built on site.? There will be a library ladder that will allow access to the upper units:
??? I've started looking at what material I want to use for this.?? I'm based near Spokane, Washington.? My local suppliers are able to get materials from Columbia, Murphy, States, and Timber Products.? They can get materials from other vendors as well,
but these seem to the big ones.
??? I've used ApplyPly, Baltic Birch, and shop grade panels in the past.? While I like the price of cheaper imported panels, some shop grade birch I bought years ago was put together with bondo (or something similar) internally and destroyed some good cutters.?
I'd rather by better materials and not have to fight with them or damage my cutters.
??? Here are my questions:
- What kind of core would you get for this application???
- Should I stick with a veneer core???
- Is there an advantage (or disadvantage) to the various hybrid cores?? (I'm not sure I care whether the panels are dead flat, and I'm generally suspicious of MDF)
- If you've worked with materials from any of these manufacturers, are there materials that you would recommend, or specifically avoid?
??? I would also welcome any general advise on the best way to approach this project.
???
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: Switching between imperial and metric
Regarding your specific example of metric adjustable groover for 3/4 doors. ?I have several adjustable groovers from Rangate. ?It is for 1.25 inch spindle but the groovers are for a range within metric. ?The spacers are 0.1 or more. ?
I have metric, imperial, decimal conversion charts mounted on several of my machine. ?With that and calipers where you can go from decimal to metric with a push button, it is super easy to go back and forth when needed. ?For 3/4, I know from my conversion chart that this is 19.05 mm and with that, I can set the groover accordingly. ?
When I convert ?to metric, as a bonus, ?I get all of the advantages of easy addition and subtraction for table height and fence position changes without fractions!
|
David P. Best
David Luckensmeyer
Tom Gensmer
imran
Jonathan Smith
Jim Fleming
Jonathan Martens