Re: Placement of a Support Brace
Imran, I think what you are talking about is this , The Power of The Triangle. It is one of the strongest forms if not the strongest form. To compress a triangle out of that form only two things can happen, 1. the material fractures or explodes. 2. The joint fails.
My guess would be that the joint will fail first. I don't think the actual angle has much to do with it Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 486
?????????? Murphys , CA. 95247 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 209-540-7501
LIC # 707507
On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 8:45 PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: David, ? I figured I will end up drawing this. Attached shows the simple scenario. Assume there is a weight hanging at the end of the cantilever. The cantilever, itself, does not need any support. The cantilever is joined with a M&T to the post. If the only concern is M&T joint, can that be alleviated with a brace? ? If the answer is yes, I show point A (midway) and point B near the end. Lets say, it is possible to add a 45 deg brace from these points to the main post. Is one better than the other or another location is best. ? Imran ? ? Imran, please post a photo of your mailbox.? David Best - via mobile phone? ? No it is not a mail box application but concept is same. In my scenario, the beam itself is stout and does not need any support however I have an interest in strengthening the M&T joint to handle the weight (downward force) at the open end of the beam. How would you use a brace for this purpose? As I understand, and it has been mentioned here, that brace works better in compression than tension. I do not know for sure what the reason is, but I suspect it is due to the limitation of the wood joinery.
On Mar 28, 2021, at 9:12 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...> wrote:
? Imran, ??? I'm not sure whether your application is actually a mailbox, or something else entirely.? Keep in mind that an alternative approach for mailboxes is to extend the horizontal member (beam) through / over the post, and have a the diagonal on the opposite side of the post, in tension.? Or to extend both the horizontal member and the vertical member, and have the diagonal on the opposite side of the port and the opposite side of the beam, in compression.? -- Michael Garrison Stuber On 3/28/2021 2:58 AM, imranindiana via wrote: I have been thinking about the best way to add a support brace. A simple example is a mailbox post that has a cantilevered horizontal arm morticed into the vertical post. It is typical to add a brace below the cantilevered arm that goes into the vertical post at some angle. ? My first thought was that the brace will be more effective if it is placed as far away as possible but it is easy to see that will actually have the affect of pulling the arm out of the main post. It is easier to see this by imagining a heavy weight hanging at the end of the horizontal arm. ? If the brace is placed in the middle of the arm, it looks more like a seesaw and any weight hanging at the end of the arm actually pushes the tenon up into the post. That seems like a better direction for the force. ? I guess I have never thought about this in detail. It appears to me that if the purpose of the brace is to aid a week arm then it might be best to go completely diagonal but ensure that the horizontal arm cannot be pulled out. But if the arm is strong and the only reason for the brace is to strengthen the mortice then it might be best to place the brace in the middle of the arm. ? Now the reason I am writing this, would it be better if the brace moved in, just a bit more towards the vertical post? It should increase the upward force even more. So instead of 50% what if the brace is placed at 45%. As long as the tenon is strong it should be better. Correct? ? Imran ? ? ? ? ?
-- Michael Garrison Stuber
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Re: Placement of a Support Brace
David, ? I figured I will end up drawing this. Attached shows the simple scenario. Assume there is a weight hanging at the end of the cantilever. The cantilever, itself, does not need any support. The cantilever is joined with a M&T to the post. If the only concern is M&T joint, can that be alleviated with a brace? ? If the answer is yes, I show point A (midway) and point B near the end. Lets say, it is possible to add a 45 deg brace from these points to the main post. Is one better than the other or another location is best. ? Imran ?
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From: [email protected] On Behalf Of david@... via groups.io Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2021 10:36 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [FOG] Placement of a Support Brace ? Imran, please post a photo of your mailbox.? David Best - via mobile phone?
On Mar 28, 2021, at 7:09 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? No it is not a mail box application but concept is same. In my scenario, the beam itself is stout and does not need any support however I have an interest in strengthening the M&T joint to handle the weight (downward force) at the open end of the beam. How would you use a brace for this purpose? As I understand, and it has been mentioned here, that brace works better in compression than tension. I do not know for sure what the reason is, but I suspect it is due to the limitation of the wood joinery.
On Mar 28, 2021, at 9:12 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...> wrote:
? Imran, ??? I'm not sure whether your application is actually a mailbox, or something else entirely.? Keep in mind that an alternative approach for mailboxes is to extend the horizontal member (beam) through / over the post, and have a the diagonal on the opposite side of the post, in tension.? Or to extend both the horizontal member and the vertical member, and have the diagonal on the opposite side of the port and the opposite side of the beam, in compression.? -- Michael Garrison Stuber On 3/28/2021 2:58 AM, imranindiana via groups.io wrote: I have been thinking about the best way to add a support brace. A simple example is a mailbox post that has a cantilevered horizontal arm morticed into the vertical post. It is typical to add a brace below the cantilevered arm that goes into the vertical post at some angle. ? My first thought was that the brace will be more effective if it is placed as far away as possible but it is easy to see that will actually have the affect of pulling the arm out of the main post. It is easier to see this by imagining a heavy weight hanging at the end of the horizontal arm. ? If the brace is placed in the middle of the arm, it looks more like a seesaw and any weight hanging at the end of the arm actually pushes the tenon up into the post. That seems like a better direction for the force. ? I guess I have never thought about this in detail. It appears to me that if the purpose of the brace is to aid a week arm then it might be best to go completely diagonal but ensure that the horizontal arm cannot be pulled out. But if the arm is strong and the only reason for the brace is to strengthen the mortice then it might be best to place the brace in the middle of the arm. ? Now the reason I am writing this, would it be better if the brace moved in, just a bit more towards the vertical post? It should increase the upward force even more. So instead of 50% what if the brace is placed at 45%. As long as the tenon is strong it should be better. Correct? ? Imran ? ? ? ? ?
-- Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: Woodworking Shop Rental
Jason, Jeff & Taylor, ? Thanks for the feedback. I guess $500/month sounded too good to be true but over the long haul $6K/yr starts adding up. Although if you do not have a building sitting around it still is pretty cheap. I guess it works out for both parties. Good to know. ? Imran ?
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From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Jason Holtz Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2021 11:13 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [FOG] Woodworking Shop Rental ? Imran, My shop is comparably equipped and set up as a co-op. Our monthly fee is around the same amount as that, including utilities and general shop maintenance?like sharpening service and abrasive belts for the machines. A former apprentice of mine is from Seattle, I think he may work out of that shop.
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Re: Woodworking Shop Rental
Imran, My shop is comparably equipped and set up as a co-op. Our monthly fee is around the same amount as that, including utilities and general shop maintenance?like sharpening service and abrasive belts for the machines. A former apprentice of mine is from Seattle, I think he may work out of that shop.
Jason Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Re: Storing Big Squeeze Clamp
Thanks, Mac.? I appreciate your comments.? The knife hinges are shop-made which I guess is a Krenov thing because that is the ultimate source of a lot of what I do.??
There was similar feature that did not show in the picture - shop-made full extension glides for the drawers.? I usually use Blum but they did not have an appropriate?size for my design application so I made these?of wenge which is durable but full of splinters. Photo enclosed. ? ? ?Jim ? ??
James H. Fleming
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Re: Placement of a Support Brace
Imran, please post a photo of your mailbox.? David Best - via mobile phone?
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On Mar 28, 2021, at 7:09 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Hi Michael,
No it is not a mail box application but concept is same. In my scenario, the beam itself is stout and does not need any support however I have an interest in strengthening the M&T joint to handle the weight (downward force) at the open end of the beam. How would you use a brace for this purpose?
As I understand, and it has been mentioned here, that brace works better in compression than tension. I do not know for sure what the reason is, but I suspect it is due to the limitation of the wood joinery.
Imran
On Mar 28, 2021, at 9:12 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...> wrote:
?
Imran,
??? I'm not sure whether your application is actually a mailbox,
or something else entirely.? Keep in mind that an alternative
approach for mailboxes is to extend the horizontal member (beam)
through / over the post, and have a the diagonal on the opposite
side of the post, in tension.? Or to extend both the horizontal
member and the vertical member, and have the diagonal on the
opposite side of the port and the opposite side of the beam, in
compression.?
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
On 3/28/2021 2:58 AM, imranindiana via
groups.io wrote:
I have been thinking about the best way to add a support brace. A simple example is a mailbox post that has a cantilevered horizontal arm morticed into the vertical post. It is typical to add a brace below the cantilevered arm that goes into the vertical post at some angle.
My first thought was that the brace will be more effective if it is placed as far away as possible but it is easy to see that will actually have the affect of pulling the arm out of the main post. It is easier to see this by imagining a heavy weight hanging at the end of the horizontal arm.
If the brace is placed in the middle of the arm, it looks more like a seesaw and any weight hanging at the end of the arm actually pushes the tenon up into the post. That seems like a better direction for the force.
I guess I have never thought about this in detail. It appears to me that if the purpose of the brace is to aid a week arm then it might be best to go completely diagonal but ensure that the horizontal arm cannot be pulled out. But if the arm is strong and the only reason for the brace is to strengthen the mortice then it might be best to place the brace in the middle of the arm.
Now the reason I am writing this, would it be better if the brace moved in, just a bit more towards the vertical post? It should increase the upward force even more. So instead of 50% what if the brace is placed at 45%. As long as the tenon is strong it should be better. Correct?
Imran
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: Placement of a Support Brace
Hi Michael,
No it is not a mail box application but concept is same. In my scenario, the beam itself is stout and does not need any support however I have an interest in strengthening the M&T joint to handle the weight (downward force) at the open end of the beam. How would you use a brace for this purpose?
As I understand, and it has been mentioned here, that brace works better in compression than tension. I do not know for sure what the reason is, but I suspect it is due to the limitation of the wood joinery.
Imran
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Show quoted text
On Mar 28, 2021, at 9:12 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...> wrote: ?
Imran,
??? I'm not sure whether your application is actually a mailbox,
or something else entirely.? Keep in mind that an alternative
approach for mailboxes is to extend the horizontal member (beam)
through / over the post, and have a the diagonal on the opposite
side of the post, in tension.? Or to extend both the horizontal
member and the vertical member, and have the diagonal on the
opposite side of the port and the opposite side of the beam, in
compression.?
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
On 3/28/2021 2:58 AM, imranindiana via
groups.io wrote:
I have been thinking about the best way to add a support brace. A simple example is a mailbox post that has a cantilevered horizontal arm morticed into the vertical post. It is typical to add a brace below the cantilevered arm that goes into the vertical post at some angle.
My first thought was that the brace will be more effective if it is placed as far away as possible but it is easy to see that will actually have the affect of pulling the arm out of the main post. It is easier to see this by imagining a heavy weight hanging at the end of the horizontal arm.
If the brace is placed in the middle of the arm, it looks more like a seesaw and any weight hanging at the end of the arm actually pushes the tenon up into the post. That seems like a better direction for the force.
I guess I have never thought about this in detail. It appears to me that if the purpose of the brace is to aid a week arm then it might be best to go completely diagonal but ensure that the horizontal arm cannot be pulled out. But if the arm is strong and the only reason for the brace is to strengthen the mortice then it might be best to place the brace in the middle of the arm.
Now the reason I am writing this, would it be better if the brace moved in, just a bit more towards the vertical post? It should increase the upward force even more. So instead of 50% what if the brace is placed at 45%. As long as the tenon is strong it should be better. Correct?
Imran
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Dado set and scoring blade for sale
#forsale
These are both ancient new stock, from when I had a Delta RE-35 slider.? - Forrest 10" dado set with two chippers. $200 + shipping - Leuco 2-part 100mm scoring set, with shims. $75 + shipping Both are bored for 1", but you could open them up to 30mm. Rick ***    
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On Mar 28, 2021, at 9:55 PM, Glen Christensen <grchris1966@...> wrote: ? Imran, Exactly, I glue two pieces together with Gorilla Glue. I do hit the material with the belt sander before I glue. Then size for the door. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 486
?????????? Murphys , CA. 95247 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 209-540-7501
LIC # 707507
On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 2:18 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: Glen,
That is great info. I looked up ultra block and as you said it says it is a composite but no more detail.
Composite decking seems like a good idea. I do not see any Trex thicker than 2” and the 4x4 composite posts some offer have a square/round hole for installation. So what options are there for thicker composite material? Have you by any chance tried gluing Trex boards to make thicker composite material?
Imran ? Imran,
I am a Simpson and Masonite door dealer. What you are referring to is Ultra Block which is a compost that is finger jointed to the bottom of the stiles before the stiles are machined and door assembled. In stain grade applications this is done to the LVL core or whatever they are going to use as a core before the veneers are applied. It's now pretty much standard on most exterior doors and is an option on the doors that are not standard with it. There is also another option for non overhang locations where they laminated an overlay of MDO on the exterior surface. I have never done it because they only do it on the flats and in my thoughts they should be using MDX this is called Waterbarrier Tech. Jamb Saver is the same as Ultra Block? but for the exterior jamb pairs to make the frame. It is done the same way . I of course don't know what glue they are using for that finger joint but I am sure I can find out. I rerail fiberglass doors all the time for exterior access doors and when I make the insert I use Trex decking and glue with Gorilla glue. I Haven't had an issue yet. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 486
?????????? Murphys , CA. 95247 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 209-540-7501
LIC # 707507
On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 10:38 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: This may not be news to some of you but this is the first time I have heard of this. I was watching an old This Old House episode during lunch and caught this detail of four building.
To protect the end grain of stiles this manufacturer uses a polyethylene block as part of the stile at bottom. Here are some pics from TV screen.
Isn?�?t polyethylene difficult to glue. I will look up to confirm if west system epoxy will work with polyethylene as that is what I intend to use.
Not knowing much about it, seems like a good idea. I would like to do this to the top and bottom of an exterior door I plan to build.
Any thoughts?
Imran
|
Imran, Exactly, I glue two pieces together with Gorilla Glue. I do hit the material with the belt sander before I glue. Then size for the door. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 486
?????????? Murphys , CA. 95247 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 209-540-7501
LIC # 707507
On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 2:18 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: Glen,
That is great info. I looked up ultra block and as you said it says it is a composite but no more detail.
Composite decking seems like a good idea. I do not see any Trex thicker than 2” and the 4x4 composite posts some offer have a square/round hole for installation. So what options are there for thicker composite material? Have you by any chance tried gluing Trex boards to make thicker composite material?
Imran ? Imran,
I am a Simpson and Masonite door dealer. What you are referring to is Ultra Block which is a compost that is finger jointed to the bottom of the stiles before the stiles are machined and door assembled. In stain grade applications this is done to the LVL core or whatever they are going to use as a core before the veneers are applied. It's now pretty much standard on most exterior doors and is an option on the doors that are not standard with it. There is also another option for non overhang locations where they laminated an overlay of MDO on the exterior surface. I have never done it because they only do it on the flats and in my thoughts they should be using MDX this is called Waterbarrier Tech. Jamb Saver is the same as Ultra Block? but for the exterior jamb pairs to make the frame. It is done the same way . I of course don't know what glue they are using for that finger joint but I am sure I can find out. I rerail fiberglass doors all the time for exterior access doors and when I make the insert I use Trex decking and glue with Gorilla glue. I Haven't had an issue yet. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 486
?????????? Murphys , CA. 95247 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 209-540-7501
LIC # 707507
On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 10:38 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: This may not be news to some of you but this is the first time I have heard of this. I was watching an old This Old House episode during lunch and caught this detail of four building.
To protect the end grain of stiles this manufacturer uses a polyethylene block as part of the stile at bottom. Here are some pics from TV screen.
Isn?�?t polyethylene difficult to glue. I will look up to confirm if west system epoxy will work with polyethylene as that is what I intend to use.
Not knowing much about it, seems like a good idea. I would like to do this to the top and bottom of an exterior door I plan to build.
Any thoughts?
Imran
|
Re: Placement of a Support Brace
Just slap a 2x4 and call it done ?
I hope to hear from mechanically inclined members on this. My intuition has betrayed me before so I could be wrong. However, once I started thinking of the ideal place to attach the brace on a cantilever it seems to me that mid point or a bit less may be the answer. This is for a case, where cantilever does not need any support and the purpose of the brace is to help the mortice & tenon joint.
Imran
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On Mar 28, 2021, at 8:59 PM, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote: ? Wait...we need to be mechanical engineers in addition to electrical engineers?? Will it never end? Dave Davies On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 02:58 AM, imranindiana wrote:
?? I'm thinking a 45 degree support brace as long as possible would be the strongest situation. More of the force is in compression that way and also the least levering force from the fulcrum. But I'm pretty bad at basic engineering.
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: Placement of a Support Brace
Imran,
??? I'm not sure whether your application is actually a mailbox,
or something else entirely.? Keep in mind that an alternative
approach for mailboxes is to extend the horizontal member (beam)
through / over the post, and have a the diagonal on the opposite
side of the post, in tension.? Or to extend both the horizontal
member and the vertical member, and have the diagonal on the
opposite side of the port and the opposite side of the beam, in
compression.?
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
On 3/28/2021 2:58 AM, imranindiana via
groups.io wrote:
I have been thinking about the best way to add a support brace. A simple example is a mailbox post that has a cantilevered horizontal arm morticed into the vertical post. It is typical to add a brace below the cantilevered arm that goes into the vertical post at some angle.
My first thought was that the brace will be more effective if it is placed as far away as possible but it is easy to see that will actually have the affect of pulling the arm out of the main post. It is easier to see this by imagining a heavy weight hanging at the end of the horizontal arm.
If the brace is placed in the middle of the arm, it looks more like a seesaw and any weight hanging at the end of the arm actually pushes the tenon up into the post. That seems like a better direction for the force.
I guess I have never thought about this in detail. It appears to me that if the purpose of the brace is to aid a week arm then it might be best to go completely diagonal but ensure that the horizontal arm cannot be pulled out. But if the arm is strong and the only reason for the brace is to strengthen the mortice then it might be best to place the brace in the middle of the arm.
Now the reason I am writing this, would it be better if the brace moved in, just a bit more towards the vertical post? It should increase the upward force even more. So instead of 50% what if the brace is placed at 45%. As long as the tenon is strong it should be better. Correct?
Imran
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: Placement of a Support Brace
Wait...we need to be mechanical engineers in addition to electrical engineers?? Will it never end? Dave Davies
On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 02:58 AM, imranindiana wrote:
?? I'm thinking a 45 degree support brace as long as possible would be the strongest situation. More of the force is in compression that way and also the least levering force from the fulcrum. But I'm pretty bad at basic engineering.
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: Placement of a Support Brace
On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 02:58 AM, imranindiana wrote:
?? I'm thinking a 45 degree support brace as long as possible would be the strongest situation. More of the force is in compression that way and also the least levering force from the fulcrum. But I'm pretty bad at basic engineering.
|
Re: Changing capacitors on a Phase Perfect
Just a word of caution. When discharging a capacitor use a resistor in series to limit the current.
Tom,
I used a RPC for a long time. The only sound, during braking, that I am familiar with is coming from the machine not the idler. I still get same sound with Phase Perfect.
Imran
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On Mar 28, 2021, at 7:00 PM, tomruth@... wrote: ?????? I would check with the tech support and see how quickly the caps drain their charge. And still check them with a volt meter and short them to make sure before removal.
????? I have a rotary converter on my saw and I notice a different sound coming from the converter motor when the brake comes on. I can't restart until the sound is back to normal after a few seconds. Sometimes I wonder if this is normal operation?
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??? I'm not a fan of finger jointing, so it might be ok on the core only.? But I usually find that a finger joint will telegraph a glue line years down the road on something that's paint grade. I've also used Boral in some situations, but it doesn't have much strength.
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Re: Woodworking Shop Rental
“Private work stations for rent”. This usually means you get a bench and a share of the tools if youre lucky.? Taylor Donsker www.tdonsker.com 818.424.9046
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On Mar 28, 2021, at 3:44 PM, Jeff <onehpbmw@...> wrote:
? I don't know.? When I lived in San Diego, I was a member at a maker's space that had most of that equipment, as well as CNC and laser stuff for about 500/year.? Some of the stuff was first rate, some not very well maintained, and there was often a wait for equipment use.? Where I live now, I pay? 500/yr for a similarly equipped? hobbyist space, also with CNC and laser.? No slider but I think everything else on the list is covered.? The real issue is, if you're a production sort of shop, you will have to share machines with other people.? ?I'm slowly but surely building my own shop space--even as "just a hobbyist", having people standing over one's shoulder glaring as you surface rough lumber,? or having to go to a main desk to "sign out" a dado set and brake for a SawStop is annoying at best.? ?Still, it's nice to not have to buy EVERYTHING all at once in order to function. On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 6:18 PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: I saw this and it is hard to believe that one can rent this for $500/month. Is this the going rate or there likely is a catch.
Imran
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Re: Changing capacitors on a Phase Perfect
????? I would check with the tech support and see how quickly the caps drain their charge. And still check them with a volt meter and short them to make sure before removal.
????? I have a rotary converter on my saw and I notice a different sound coming from the converter motor when the brake comes on. I can't restart until the sound is back to normal after a few seconds. Sometimes I wonder if this is normal operation?
|
Re: Woodworking Shop Rental
I don't know.? When I lived in San Diego, I was a member at a maker's space that had most of that equipment, as well as CNC and laser stuff for about 500/year.? Some of the stuff was first rate, some not very well maintained, and there was often a wait for equipment use.? Where I live now, I pay? 500/yr for a similarly equipped? hobbyist space, also with CNC and laser.? No slider but I think everything else on the list is covered.? The real issue is, if you're a production sort of shop, you will have to share machines with other people.? ?I'm slowly but surely building my own shop space--even as "just a hobbyist", having people standing over one's shoulder glaring as you surface rough lumber,? or having to go to a main desk to "sign out" a dado set and brake for a SawStop is annoying at best.? ?Still, it's nice to not have to buy EVERYTHING all at once in order to function.
On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 6:18 PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: I saw this and it is hard to believe that one can rent this for $500/month. Is this the going rate or there likely is a catch.
Imran
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I saw this and it is hard to believe that one can rent this for $500/month. Is this the going rate or there likely is a catch.
Imran
|
imran
Jason Holtz
Jim Fleming
David P. Best
Rick Levine
Jeff