Mark, I assume that is different from plastic resin, and maybe what my dad used. I thought he mixed with water but now I am not sure. I do remember it being kinda reddish. The only thing I do know is the older I get the more confused I get
Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 9:50 AM Mark Koury < mhkoury@...> wrote: Does anyone use?resorcinol glue? For years this was the only Gov. approved glue for outdoor structural wood members. This has good shelf life - 2 part, powder and hardener. It has a long open time, unless you are working on a very hot day. (Open time is temp dependent, will not set up on a very cold day) The result is waterproof and not degraded by UV light like epoxy. It dries rigid with minimal creep. Brand is DAP. Ideal glue for exterior laminations. Glue line is darkish red.
Mark
Jonathan,
IIRC, thickened epoxy in general is weaker and used when a filler is needed due to imperfections in mating materials. Planned wood mates perfectly and just rolling the mixed epoxy is also quicker.
Imran ?Glen, West System makes a lot of different stuff but if you are thinking about basic 105 epoxy then gluing up laminations is a common application.? The advantage is that it doesn't need clamping pressure like pva glue and is completely weather proof.? The downside is it takes longer to set but is kind of controllable with different hardners and shop temp.? Plan on 24 hours.? Word to the wise, let a piece fully cure before unclamping laminations in tension.? Otherwise, you will hear little popping sounds which are not good. Don't ask me how I know. Depending on the surface roughness of the mating pieces you may want to use a thickener like fumed silica.? Surfaces are wetted out with un-thickened epoxy then go back and slather with the thickened.? You can play with consistency like pancake batter to peanut butter.? "They" say thickener will not affect the bonding. Thickened is a much easier material to wok with than the liquid form.? You probably know by now most tools become sacrificial although acetone can remove some uncured sticky stuff. Of course read the lit and talk to the dealers.? There are a ton of youtube videos out there.? Cedar strip canoes and kayaks have several smaller formed laminated parts like stems and seats. <dummyfile.0.part>
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Jonathan, Thank you, I have the basic 105 and all the different hardeners. I am going to just give it a try as a test, but going to use the plastic resin. Or better I am going to glue a set up in each and have a bit of fun with a compression/ break test. I will share which was better. Got to ask Is that boat one that you built? It is beautiful. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
Glen, West System makes a lot of different stuff but if you are thinking about basic 105 epoxy then gluing up laminations is a common application.? The advantage is that it doesn't need clamping pressure like pva glue and is completely weather proof.? The downside is it takes longer to set but is kind of controllable with different hardners and shop temp.? Plan on 24 hours.? Word to the wise, let a piece fully cure before unclamping laminations in tension.? Otherwise, you will hear little popping sounds which are not good. Don't ask me how I know. Depending on the surface roughness of the mating pieces you may want to use a thickener like fumed silica.? Surfaces are wetted out with un-thickened epoxy then go back and slather with the thickened.? You can play with consistency like pancake batter to peanut butter.? "They" say thickener will not affect the bonding. Thickened is a much easier material to wok with than the liquid form.? You probably know by now most tools become sacrificial although acetone can remove some uncured sticky stuff. Of course read the lit and talk to the dealers.? There are a ton of youtube videos out there.? Cedar strip canoes and kayaks have several smaller formed laminated parts like stems and seats. 
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Agree RE plastic resin glue.? Please use a respirator when mixing until it's liquefied.? It can cause severe toxicity if inhaled.
Thanks Jason, I will do that but you just solved my problem, That is exactly what I remember, A brown powder that he mixed and I was paint boy. No foam rollers back in those days. He was making boat ribs at the time I will call my hardwood supplier, they must have it. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 5:44 AM Jason Holtz < jholtzy@...> wrote: Hi Glen, Contact West Systems support. They are excellent. They know their products well and are great problem solvers.?
Weldwood plastic resin glue is my go to for bent laminations. It's a powder, the catalyst is activated with water. It has a long open time, rolls easily with a foam roller. I clamp 24 hours. It cures glass hard with very minimal spring back.
Jason Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Thanks Jason, I will do that but you just solved my problem, That is exactly what I remember, A brown powder that he mixed and I was paint boy. No foam rollers back in those days. He was making boat ribs at the time I will call my hardwood supplier, they must have it. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 5:44 AM Jason Holtz < jholtzy@...> wrote: Hi Glen, Contact West Systems support. They are excellent. They know their products well and are great problem solvers.?
Weldwood plastic resin glue is my go to for bent laminations. It's a powder, the catalyst is activated with water. It has a long open time, rolls easily with a foam roller. I clamp 24 hours. It cures glass hard with very minimal spring back.
Jason Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Imran, Thank you
I am consulting with the pro's, you guys. I remember doing this as a kid with my day and don't remember what glue we used, but he knew. I did not even think about the soak up issue vs time. I really think I need to figure out what glue my dad used and just go that route, however I am intrigued to just try this with the West and see what happens
Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 9:07 PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: Glen,
Not all boards pickup epoxy equally but depending upon how it was sawn some can pick up a lot. I have experienced this and I had to make multiple batches because it would keep sucking epoxy away. This can be bad for a lamination or a joint glue up.
West System recommends a 2 step process, first being a wetting process. One can wait as long as the open time before applying the 2nd coat. If it did not get sucked away in that duration then it is likely to remain where needed for the time required to cure.
I assume this is a structural element, it may be best to consult with pros. I know melamine urea formaldehyde, phenol resorcinol formaldehyde (dark color may not be desirable) and polyurethane are used by industry but not sure of conditions that guarantee the structural strength.
West System does publish ASTM test results for their various products on the website but do not mention which particular ASTM test and for this reason it is hard to find test results that can be compared.
Imran ?All,
As you know I have been injecting the West System in to my totem pole for weeks now, not sure where it is going but The core of this log is a lot worse than I though.
At this point I am just trying to seal up the sides so I can invert it on the the head and do a pour down the inside.
That not my question, but in the time i wait for cure and to do it all again, i made the mistake of thinking.
How would the West System work for lamination?
I have a project coming, making some arched glue-lam rafters so to speak which I have done before and use Gorilla Glue, These are big enough that I am sure I can"t coat and clamp before the glue starts to go off.
Any thoughts on the bonding strengths, outside application on trying this.
Thank you all In advance as always
Glen
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Re: The Log Mantle Project
Mark,
I think that would have been easier but then I will have to go back to house and cook or do dishes or something less fun ?
Imran
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On Mar 17, 2021, at 1:06 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote: ?Unless I'm not understanding the job, I'd use a handheld circular saw, guided by a clamped or screwed board to make perfectly straight cut.? Cut both sides, then a handsaw to cut the inch or so left in the middle.? This would take a fraction of the time of it takes to make jigs, reconfigure the saw, lug the timber around.? ?
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The resorcinol glues today are of a much lower formaldehyde content then in the past, still a likely a concern but not sure if it’s any worse then the others chemicals you would be exposed to in a woodshop.?
I have used it a little over the years for where I needed a hard glue line - bent laminations, burl veneers but I have also used yellow quite a bit with success. Would still recommend urea for a bent lami, however have used yellow and just added a little extra bend to account for the spring back which works if you are designing your own pieces but may not if you are working to an architects specs. I have some walnut burl tables and a Humidor that I pressed with yellow about 25yrs ago and they are still good. I also worked n a corporate/custom shop where we built 100k + boardroom tables and don’t remember using anything special.?
With that said, today i would use slowset tightbond at a min on flat panels, it sets up pretty hard for a pva, no special mixing and I already have some, next would be unibond 1 which is an even harder pva and lastly urea (although I may use urea anyways as I am getting more paranoid in my older age).?
And i would never use epoxy unless it was a boat...?
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On Mar 17, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
resorcinol
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I have heard reference?to resorcinol in my circles mostly about the "old days" before epoxy and plastic resins became easier to work with coupled with fears of the dangers of formaldehyde. But they weren't building critical marine components or operating on government contracts either. Younger guys than me will probably never even hear of it as they are so inundated with epoxy EpOxY? !!!!EPOXY!!! marketing and social media nowadays! Being able to use a just-add-water powder like the plastic resins sure makes it easy to prep a batch to use and clean up too.
On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 11:50 AM Mark Koury < mhkoury@...> wrote: Does anyone use?resorcinol glue? For years this was the only Gov. approved glue for outdoor structural wood members. This has good shelf life - 2 part, powder and hardener. It has a long open time, unless you are working on a very hot day. (Open time is temp dependent, will not set up on a very cold day) The result is waterproof and not degraded by UV light like epoxy. It dries rigid with minimal creep. Brand is DAP. Ideal glue for exterior laminations. Glue line is darkish red.
Mark
Jonathan,
IIRC, thickened epoxy in general is weaker and used when a filler is needed due to imperfections in mating materials. Planned wood mates perfectly and just rolling the mixed epoxy is also quicker.
Imran ?Glen, West System makes a lot of different stuff but if you are thinking about basic 105 epoxy then gluing up laminations is a common application.? The advantage is that it doesn't need clamping pressure like pva glue and is completely weather proof.? The downside is it takes longer to set but is kind of controllable with different hardners and shop temp.? Plan on 24 hours.? Word to the wise, let a piece fully cure before unclamping laminations in tension.? Otherwise, you will hear little popping sounds which are not good. Don't ask me how I know. Depending on the surface roughness of the mating pieces you may want to use a thickener like fumed silica.? Surfaces are wetted out with un-thickened epoxy then go back and slather with the thickened.? You can play with consistency like pancake batter to peanut butter.? "They" say thickener will not affect the bonding. Thickened is a much easier material to wok with than the liquid form.? You probably know by now most tools become sacrificial although acetone can remove some uncured sticky stuff. Of course read the lit and talk to the dealers.? There are a ton of youtube videos out there.? Cedar strip canoes and kayaks have several smaller formed laminated parts like stems and seats. <dummyfile.0.part>
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: The Log Mantle Project
Unless I'm not understanding the job, I'd use a handheld circular saw, guided by a clamped or screwed board to make perfectly straight cut.? Cut both sides, then a handsaw to cut the inch or so left in the middle.? This would take a fraction of the time of it takes to make jigs, reconfigure the saw, lug the timber around.? ?
|
Does anyone use?resorcinol glue? For years this was the only Gov. approved glue for outdoor structural wood members. This has good shelf life - 2 part, powder and hardener. It has a long open time, unless you are working on a very hot day. (Open time is temp dependent, will not set up on a very cold day) The result is waterproof and not degraded by UV light like epoxy. It dries rigid with minimal creep. Brand is DAP. Ideal glue for exterior laminations. Glue line is darkish red.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Jonathan,
IIRC, thickened epoxy in general is weaker and used when a filler is needed due to imperfections in mating materials. Planned wood mates perfectly and just rolling the mixed epoxy is also quicker.
Imran ?Glen, West System makes a lot of different stuff but if you are thinking about basic 105 epoxy then gluing up laminations is a common application.? The advantage is that it doesn't need clamping pressure like pva glue and is completely weather proof.? The downside is it takes longer to set but is kind of controllable with different hardners and shop temp.? Plan on 24 hours.? Word to the wise, let a piece fully cure before unclamping laminations in tension.? Otherwise, you will hear little popping sounds which are not good. Don't ask me how I know. Depending on the surface roughness of the mating pieces you may want to use a thickener like fumed silica.? Surfaces are wetted out with un-thickened epoxy then go back and slather with the thickened.? You can play with consistency like pancake batter to peanut butter.? "They" say thickener will not affect the bonding. Thickened is a much easier material to wok with than the liquid form.? You probably know by now most tools become sacrificial although acetone can remove some uncured sticky stuff. Of course read the lit and talk to the dealers.? There are a ton of youtube videos out there.? Cedar strip canoes and kayaks have several smaller formed laminated parts like stems and seats. <dummyfile.0.part>
|
Re: The Log Mantle Project
Jonathan,
Thanks for excellent ideas. I need to process these and get back.
Imran
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On Mar 17, 2021, at 9:04 AM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote: ?On 17/03/2021 01:46, imranindiana via groups.io wrote: I would love to hear if there is a way to joint such big material and any other technique I could have used. Using a band saw with extension tables? Option 1: Lengthwise half of your mantle piece using band saw, miter at table saw and re-assemble: Cut the log lengthwise in half would, with the reference face on the band saw table would have given you enough depth of cut to reference your flat face and cut the miter. After that use domino or other doweling option to realign and glue both halves back together, referencing the flat face again. You might see it a little, but the thin kerf of a band saw blade should not show to much on a live edge IMHO. To make sure you cut nice and straight fix the reference face with screws to a board with a straight edge roughly where you want to cut. Build a simple guide like show here (), but make sure it lies flat on the table instead of suspended and that the make due guide is at the bottom with reference side facing down. This should guide your cut to be fairly straight. Make sure to feed slowly and use a blade with low tpi. Option 2a Band saw miter cut with guidance jig and auxiliary guide at fence: Make a jig with a base that has the two mitered angles at either short side, effectively making a trapeze like shape (some quick 'quick and dirtyascii art' to hopefully illustrate what I mean /____\ ). Attach a fence along the largest side of the base plate at 90 degrees. Fix the reference face against the fence of your jig, using screws (preferably), or clamps. Feed the jig with mantle piece through your band saw making sure that the 45 degree edge of the base plate of your jig rides the bar against the fence Option 2b Band saw miter cut with guidance jig and t-slot runner: Don't use the fence and the temporary guide attached to it, but make a runner at the bottom of the jig that rides the t-slot in your band saw table, make one for 45 positive and one for 45 negative angle. Note: If weight or size is an issue you might consider to first cut of a piece just a little larger than needed for the mitered angle and use a domino or other doweling option to realign and glue together all pieces (some more 'quick and dirty ascii art' to hopefully illustrate what I mean /__ | + |___| + |__\ ) Option 3: Make some else do it for you as your neighbor did ;-) Kind regards, Jonathan
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Re: Felder Universal Diamond saw blade, does anyone have or used one.
I've used one at classes I took.? When I came back for more classes, it had been exchanged for a regular blade.? I'm not sure whether the diamond suffered a mishap or is being saved for something special--it does leave a nicer finish off the saw.? As a hobbyist, I'm not convinced that a few minutes more of sanding an edge is worth the price.
On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 11:11 AM David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
I'm likely a cult of one but what problem exists that needs a $600 blade to fix?? Dave
Felder USA stocks the blade. You just have to call it in. It was 602 out the door before any discount.?
![]()
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Re: Felder Universal Diamond saw blade, does anyone have or used one.
French River Springs has a youtube video review of this blade that I came across recently. He runs through a number of materials and cuts. I don't believe knots were specifically addressed but it sounds like the thread hasn't had issues.
Josh Twyman
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Jonathan,
IIRC, thickened epoxy in general is weaker and used when a filler is needed due to imperfections in mating materials. Planned wood mates perfectly and just rolling the mixed epoxy is also quicker.
Imran
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Show quoted text
On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:29 AM, Jonathan Smith <jonathan.smith@...> wrote: ?Glen, West System makes a lot of different stuff but if you are thinking about basic 105 epoxy then gluing up laminations is a common application.? The advantage is that it doesn't need clamping pressure like pva glue and is completely weather proof.? The downside is it takes longer to set but is kind of controllable with different hardners and shop temp.? Plan on 24 hours.? Word to the wise, let a piece fully cure before unclamping laminations in tension.? Otherwise, you will hear little popping sounds which are not good. Don't ask me how I know. Depending on the surface roughness of the mating pieces you may want to use a thickener like fumed silica.? Surfaces are wetted out with un-thickened epoxy then go back and slather with the thickened.? You can play with consistency like pancake batter to peanut butter.? "They" say thickener will not affect the bonding. Thickened is a much easier material to wok with than the liquid form.? You probably know by now most tools become sacrificial although acetone can remove some uncured sticky stuff. Of course read the lit and talk to the dealers.? There are a ton of youtube videos out there.? Cedar strip canoes and kayaks have several smaller formed laminated parts like stems and seats. <dummyfile.0.part>
|
Glen, West System makes a lot of different stuff but if you are thinking about basic 105 epoxy then gluing up laminations is a common application.? The advantage is that it doesn't need clamping pressure like pva glue and is completely weather proof.? The downside is it takes longer to set but is kind of controllable with different hardners and shop temp.? Plan on 24 hours.? Word to the wise, let a piece fully cure before unclamping laminations in tension.? Otherwise, you will hear little popping sounds which are not good. Don't ask me how I know. Depending on the surface roughness of the mating pieces you may want to use a thickener like fumed silica.? Surfaces are wetted out with un-thickened epoxy then go back and slather with the thickened.? You can play with consistency like pancake batter to peanut butter.? "They" say thickener will not affect the bonding. Thickened is a much easier material to wok with than the liquid form.? You probably know by now most tools become sacrificial although acetone can remove some uncured sticky stuff. Of course read the lit and talk to the dealers.? There are a ton of youtube videos out there.? Cedar strip canoes and kayaks have several smaller formed laminated parts like stems and seats. 
|
Re: Felder Universal Diamond saw blade, does anyone have or used one.
I would imagine the blade was developed for volume panel cutting where the abrasives are higher then likely marketed as as an all around blade to grab more sales
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On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:11 AM, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
?
I'm likely a cult of one but what problem exists that needs a $600 blade to fix?? Dave
Felder USA stocks the blade. You just have to call it in. It was 602 out the door before any discount.?
![]()
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Re: Felder Universal Diamond saw blade, does anyone have or used one.
I'm likely a cult of one but what problem exists that needs a $600 blade to fix?? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Felder USA stocks the blade. You just have to call it in. It was 602 out the door before any discount.?
![]()
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Re: The Log Mantle Project
Haha Jason, You had me excited, thought there was something that I could have in my shop.
Imran
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On Mar 17, 2021, at 10:08 AM, Jason Holtz <jholtzy@...> wrote: ? Imran, You clearly need a Raimann Flexirip saw. My lumber supplier just got one. I think it will take a 20" blade.
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Re: The Log Mantle Project
Everybody needs one of those ! Dave Davies
On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 9:08 AM Jason Holtz < jholtzy@...> wrote: Imran, You clearly need a Raimann Flexirip saw. My lumber supplier just got one. I think it will take a 20" blade.
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: The Log Mantle Project
Imran, You clearly need a Raimann Flexirip saw. My lumber supplier just got one. I think it will take a 20" blade.
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Jeff
imran
Jonathan Smith
Jason Holtz