Re: Ten woodworking tools you have to see
The one thing I like about the PantoRouter is it is easy to make your own templates with different shapes. With the Multirouter you could with metal but that would make the process that much harder. For a small shop and many one off projects there is greater flexibility. By the time you buy all the templates etc you are at a much higher price.
Philip Davidson
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 31, 2021, at 1:17 PM, Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq. <rohrabacher@...> wrote:
?
On 1/5/21 11:43 AM, david@... via groups.io wrote:
PantoRouter looks like a toy to me in comparison.
I gotta agree with David here.
The panta has a loyal following much like Festool But it doesn't
lool robust enough to stand hundreds of hours of use.
--
Philip
davidsonukuleles.com
|
Re: Ten woodworking tools you have to see
On 1/5/21 11:43 AM, david@... via groups.io wrote: ?PantoRouter looks like a toy to me in comparison. I gotta agree with David here. The panta has a loyal following? much like Festool ? But? it doesn't lool robust enough to stand ? hundreds of hours of use.
|
Re: Ten woodworking tools you have to see
Michael
Look closely? at the bearings in the joints of the machines.?
I've never been in the presence of a pantorouter.? but looking
at? vids and images I believe the pin bearings on the? pantograph
arms? are little other than steel pins in slip fit aluminum
holes.? If this is so then it's a terrible? bearing that will
produce? immense wear and slop in short order.? But Like I( said
I've never been in a room with one so? I? really can't say what
exactly? it is.? Maybe they have ball bearings hidden in there? or
bronze bushings.?
If I were abut to spend the $$ I''d e want that question
answered.
The Multirouter OTOH? has? linear slides and that technology? is
well probven and the thing is not made of? cheesy? aluminum
extrusion held together by? little bolts
On 1/5/21 9:40 AM, Michael Marsico
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I see woodpeckers has a sale on the multi router from an email
today.? ?So i thought I would revive this thread.? I was leaning
toward a panto-router and wanted to ask if anyone had used both
and what the set up was like.? I see David's comments on the
multi-router which, as always, makes a lot of sense.? With the
Pantorouter you move the router with the wood being clamped in one
position and with the multi-router you move the work piece and
tables to and around the router.? Does one of these methods make
set up quicker and easier or is it "6 one 1/2 dozen the other"?
|
Re: HP needed for heavy cutter?
Thanks Mark and Glen. ?
Mark, very nice visual, and if your cycle time is right, a reasonable length job.
Even if we can¡¯t get 60 ties in a frame,, say 20. still only 8 hours of work.
Glen Christensen, ?Glad u like the website for . ?Tank collector and rairload foujnder was Jacques Littlefield, who passed 12 years ago at age?
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
Thanks Joe. Good to know. I sent a msg to WW Tools Works, let¡¯s see if they will sharpen my bits.
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 30, 2021, at 4:52 PM, bacchus6015 via groups.io <joeinno@...> wrote: ? Imran,
That was a carbide birds mouth (Birdsbeak) bit in the FD250 in the video. ?I bought the bit from Greg at Rangate it may have been made by Sistemi. ?You probably don¡¯t have to worry about sharpening the carbide bits. ?I did not dull mine in all the time I used them.
I think that mortise was about 2.5¡± deep.
Shallow back and forth passes are what you want for mortising with the birds mouth bits. ?
Joe
?As I mentioned, it gave me clean accurate cuts.
Joe, I believe you are moving quicker in the video but it could be due to shallow passes. I have not counted the passes. You recall how deep that mortice was, 3¡±?
Also that is not birdbeak bit. You mentioned earlier using carbide. I am likely couple of weeks from starting on the big door, so be rolling out the FD soon.
Imran On Jan 30, 2021, at 1:37 PM, bacchus6015 via < joeinno@...> wrote: ? I agree with Brian,
The FD250 is awkward to use and has a steep learning curve.?
The machine does not feel good until it is dialed in then it is a pleasure to use.
Joe
On Jan 30, 2021, at 10:33 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Get some experience under your belt and then you can decide if things need changing and what bit is best.
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
Imran,
That was a carbide birds mouth (Birdsbeak) bit in the FD250 in the video. ?I bought the bit from Greg at Rangate it may have been made by Sistemi. ?You probably don¡¯t have to worry about sharpening the carbide bits. ?I did not dull mine in all the time I used them.
I think that mortise was about 2.5¡± deep.
Shallow back and forth passes are what you want for mortising with the birds mouth bits. ?
Joe
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?As I mentioned, it gave me clean accurate cuts.
Joe, I believe you are moving quicker in the video but it could be due to shallow passes. I have not counted the passes. You recall how deep that mortice was, 3¡±?
Also that is not birdbeak bit. You mentioned earlier using carbide. I am likely couple of weeks from starting on the big door, so be rolling out the FD soon.
Imran On Jan 30, 2021, at 1:37 PM, bacchus6015 via < joeinno@...> wrote: ? I agree with Brian,
The FD250 is awkward to use and has a steep learning curve.?
The machine does not feel good until it is dialed in then it is a pleasure to use.
Joe
On Jan 30, 2021, at 10:33 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Get some experience under your belt and then you can decide if things need changing and what bit is best.
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
?As I mentioned, it gave me clean accurate cuts.
Joe, I believe you are moving quicker in the video but it could be due to shallow passes. I have not counted the passes. You recall how deep that mortice was, 3¡±?
Also that is not birdbeak bit. You mentioned earlier using carbide. I am likely couple of weeks from starting on the big door, so be rolling out the FD soon.
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 30, 2021, at 1:37 PM, bacchus6015 via groups.io <joeinno@...> wrote: ? I agree with Brian,
The FD250 is awkward to use and has a steep learning curve.?
The machine does not feel good until it is dialed in then it is a pleasure to use.
Joe
On Jan 30, 2021, at 10:33 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Get some experience under your belt and then you can decide if things need changing and what bit is best.
|
Re: Felder Feeder for Sale
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 30, 2021, at 1:35 PM, Patrick Kane <pwk5017@...> wrote: ? Yeah, if it¡¯s close-ish to Me I¡¯d be interested. I might be a brick shy of a load, but what phase is it? I don¡¯t see it on the motor plate.?
Patrick On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 12:46 PM Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: Good price, you might mention where you are¡ shipping could kill the deal.
I bought this a few years ago but it was too big and heavy a feeder to mount on my Hammer C 331, so I never used it. The fellow I bought it from also had a home workshop. He used it very little; hardly at all? he said. It is in good working condition. It has the tilting device and extension horzontal tube. I hope the photos give most of the info you need, but I can get you more. I have the manuals etc. I want to get $550. U.S for it. <20210122_151251.jpg>
<20210122_151200.jpg>
<20210122_151251.jpg><20210122_151200.jpg>
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
I agree with Brian,
The FD250 is awkward to use and has a steep learning curve.?
The machine does not feel good until it is dialed in then it is a pleasure to use.
Joe
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 30, 2021, at 10:33 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Get some experience under your belt and then you can decide if things need changing and what bit is best.
|
Re: Felder Feeder for Sale
Yeah, if it¡¯s close-ish to Me I¡¯d be interested. I might be a brick shy of a load, but what phase is it? I don¡¯t see it on the motor plate.?
Patrick
On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 12:46 PM Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: Good price, you might mention where you are¡ shipping could kill the deal.
I bought this a few years ago but it was too big and heavy a feeder to mount on my Hammer C 331, so I never used it. The fellow I bought it from also had a home workshop. He used it very little; hardly at all? he said. It is in good working condition. It has the tilting device and extension horzontal tube. I hope the photos give most of the info you need, but I can get you more. I have the manuals etc. I want to get $550. U.S for it. <20210122_151251.jpg>
<20210122_151200.jpg>
<20210122_151251.jpg><20210122_151200.jpg>
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
Get some experience under your belt and then you can decide if things need changing and what bit is best.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Brian,
Not having a reference or working experience makes it difficult to determine what you is good or not. Buying used machine with used bits (previous owner had a small business) another uncertainty. I do know that plunging as you said and cleaning after sounds like a lot faster than my current experience of side to side slitting in small steps.
Imran? On Jan 30, 2021, at 12:41 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: ? I don¡¯t know that end mills will be any different in depth of cut on side to side passes, but they will plunge better than a birdsmouth bit. I¡¯ve done mortises where you plunge 2¡± deep, step over 1/2 the diameter of the cutter, do it again, then when the whole mortise is plunged, finish it side to side at about 1¡± depth per pass, that¡¯s with a 1/2¡± cutter.
You will get clean bottoms with either cutter, no difference there as long as you are sliding side to side at the bottom.?
Sharpening? How many thousands of mortises do you intend to do? Even a cheap HSS end mill should cut close to a thousand mortises before it gets dull¡ that would be a lifetime of mortises for me.
Brian,
My results were fine with 14mm in Cypress but I took small steps. If endmill won¡¯t allow a bigger step (depth of cut per pass) then i have no interest unless it was cheaper and bits would last longer. I don¡¯t know if end mills can be sharpened but no luck finding anyone to sharpen birdsmouth.
The previous owner demo in hard maple was not good. I don¡¯t plan to get carbide but wanted to compare apples to apples.?
20mm birdsmouth in HSS is still over $100.
Lastly, my perception is that i will get clean bottom holes with end mills. Not sure if that is true.
Imran On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:41 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: ? Are your existing results bad? I doubt it. I wouldn¡¯t spend the money on carbide for the occasional mortise¡ a 3/4¡± carbide extended length end mill will set you back north of $100 and carbide is pretty easy to snap off, especially on these comparatively flexible and rickety machines we are talking about. It would be a different story on a 10,000lb machining center.
Your best bet for 3/4¡± mortises would be an extended length HSS or Cobalt end mill. 4 flute would be stiffer, but because of less room for chip evacuation, it will tend to burn more, so I¡¯d probably try a 2 flute version¡ stiffness in wood isn¡¯t the big issue anyway.
I just want to try and see if better results can be had. Jonathan mentioned center cutting, 4 flute end mills. Does anyone have a recommendation for 3/4¡± end mill? Felder supplied birds mouth is 100mm long for 20mm.
Generic end mills may be more affordable as well. Felder 18mm HW is $150.
Imran?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:07 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: ? VFD rated motors can generally run up to 200hz, CNC router motors up to 400hz. Torque does drop dramatically over about 90hz.?
OK, I¡¯ll probably start a war¡ but you don¡¯t need huge rpm on router bits or on these mortisers. You can¡¯t manually move the cutters at a rate that justifies all this rpm, all you will get is burning. Now, on a CNC router, different story, it has the capability to move the cutters at 500-1000ipm and can make use of all that rpm. I have machined mortises on my old Deckel mill and routinely done them at 1200 rpm and they come out great.?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:54 AM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.??
Thank?Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around 3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
Two more things to check if you are getting poor results are the run out of the Wescott chuck and the motor bearings.
I bought my FD250 used and it came with bad bearings. ?The previous owner used a 22mm BB Bit to cut mortisers for bed hangers. ?The bit was about 8¡± long and I think it was too much for the FD250 due to a secondary problem of the Wescott chuck being slightly off on the motor shaft taper. ?The chuck on my FD250 fit on a taper and had three sets screws to bind into the motor shaft. ?It was fairly difficult to mount correctly and then not damage the motor shaft with the set screws. ?I received much help from the FOG sorting out how to smooth the tapered shaft and remount the chuck. ?
After fixing those two problems mortising results improved substantially.
As your machine is used make sure everything is is operating and adjusted properly, also get a new sharp bit and use that for testing.
Joe
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Good to know Dave ? On Jan 30, 2021, at 1:12 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote: ?
Woodworkers Tool Works in Melrose WI will sharpen birds mouth.? Call to verify as I've not had it done for several years.? Dave
Brian,
My results were fine with 14mm in Cypress but I took small steps. If endmill won¡¯t allow a bigger step (depth of cut per pass) then i have no interest unless it was cheaper and bits would last longer. I don¡¯t know if end mills can be sharpened
but no luck finding anyone to sharpen birdsmouth.
The previous owner demo in hard maple was not good. I don¡¯t plan to get carbide but wanted to compare apples to apples.?
20mm birdsmouth in HSS is still over $100.
Lastly, my perception is that i will get clean bottom holes with end mills. Not sure if that is true.
Imran
On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:41 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
?Are your existing results bad? I doubt it. I wouldn¡¯t spend the money on carbide for the occasional mortise¡ a 3/4¡± carbide extended length end mill will set you back north of $100 and carbide is pretty easy to snap off, especially on these
comparatively flexible and rickety machines we are talking about. It would be a different story on a 10,000lb machining center.
Your best bet for 3/4¡± mortises would be an extended length HSS or Cobalt end mill. 4 flute would be stiffer, but because of less room for chip evacuation, it will tend to burn more, so I¡¯d probably try a 2 flute version¡ stiffness in wood isn¡¯t
the big issue anyway.
I just want to try and see if better results can be had. Jonathan mentioned center cutting, 4 flute end mills. Does anyone have a recommendation for 3/4¡± end mill? Felder supplied birds mouth is 100mm long for 20mm.
Generic end mills may be more affordable as well. Felder 18mm HW is $150.
Imran?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:07 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
?VFD rated motors can generally run up to 200hz, CNC router motors up to 400hz. Torque does drop dramatically over about 90hz.?
OK, I¡¯ll probably start a war¡ but you don¡¯t need huge rpm on router bits or on these mortisers. You can¡¯t manually move the cutters at a rate that justifies all this rpm, all you will get is burning. Now, on a CNC router, different story, it
has the capability to move the cutters at 500-1000ipm and can make use of all that rpm. I have machined mortises on my old Deckel mill and routinely done them at 1200 rpm and they come out great.?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:54 AM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining
the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize
you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.??
Thank?Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around
3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 30, 2021, at 1:12 PM, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote: ?
Woodworkers Tool Works in Melrose WI will sharpen birds mouth.? Call to verify as I've not had it done for several years.? Dave
Brian,
My results were fine with 14mm in Cypress but I took small steps. If endmill won¡¯t allow a bigger step (depth of cut per pass) then i have no interest unless it was cheaper and bits would last longer. I don¡¯t know if end mills can be sharpened
but no luck finding anyone to sharpen birdsmouth.
The previous owner demo in hard maple was not good. I don¡¯t plan to get carbide but wanted to compare apples to apples.?
20mm birdsmouth in HSS is still over $100.
Lastly, my perception is that i will get clean bottom holes with end mills. Not sure if that is true.
Imran
On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:41 AM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
?Are your existing results bad? I doubt it. I wouldn¡¯t spend the money on carbide for the occasional mortise¡ a 3/4¡± carbide extended length end mill will set you back north of $100 and carbide is pretty easy to snap off, especially on these
comparatively flexible and rickety machines we are talking about. It would be a different story on a 10,000lb machining center.
Your best bet for 3/4¡± mortises would be an extended length HSS or Cobalt end mill. 4 flute would be stiffer, but because of less room for chip evacuation, it will tend to burn more, so I¡¯d probably try a 2 flute version¡ stiffness in wood isn¡¯t
the big issue anyway.
I just want to try and see if better results can be had. Jonathan mentioned center cutting, 4 flute end mills. Does anyone have a recommendation for 3/4¡± end mill? Felder supplied birds mouth is 100mm long for 20mm.
Generic end mills may be more affordable as well. Felder 18mm HW is $150.
Imran?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:07 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
?VFD rated motors can generally run up to 200hz, CNC router motors up to 400hz. Torque does drop dramatically over about 90hz.?
OK, I¡¯ll probably start a war¡ but you don¡¯t need huge rpm on router bits or on these mortisers. You can¡¯t manually move the cutters at a rate that justifies all this rpm, all you will get is burning. Now, on a CNC router, different story, it
has the capability to move the cutters at 500-1000ipm and can make use of all that rpm. I have machined mortises on my old Deckel mill and routinely done them at 1200 rpm and they come out great.?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:54 AM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining
the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize
you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.??
Thank?Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around
3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
Woodworkers Tool Works in Melrose WI will sharpen birds mouth.? Call to verify as I've not had it done for several years.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Brian,
My results were fine with 14mm in Cypress but I took small steps. If endmill won¡¯t allow a bigger step (depth of cut per pass) then i have no interest unless it was cheaper and bits would last longer. I don¡¯t know if end mills can be sharpened
but no luck finding anyone to sharpen birdsmouth.
The previous owner demo in hard maple was not good. I don¡¯t plan to get carbide but wanted to compare apples to apples.?
20mm birdsmouth in HSS is still over $100.
Lastly, my perception is that i will get clean bottom holes with end mills. Not sure if that is true.
Imran
On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:41 AM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
?Are your existing results bad? I doubt it. I wouldn¡¯t spend the money on carbide for the occasional mortise¡ a 3/4¡± carbide extended length end mill will set you back north of $100 and carbide is pretty easy to snap off, especially on these
comparatively flexible and rickety machines we are talking about. It would be a different story on a 10,000lb machining center.
Your best bet for 3/4¡± mortises would be an extended length HSS or Cobalt end mill. 4 flute would be stiffer, but because of less room for chip evacuation, it will tend to burn more, so I¡¯d probably try a 2 flute version¡ stiffness in wood isn¡¯t
the big issue anyway.
I just want to try and see if better results can be had. Jonathan mentioned center cutting, 4 flute end mills. Does anyone have a recommendation for 3/4¡± end mill? Felder supplied birds mouth is 100mm long for 20mm.
Generic end mills may be more affordable as well. Felder 18mm HW is $150.
Imran?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:07 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
?VFD rated motors can generally run up to 200hz, CNC router motors up to 400hz. Torque does drop dramatically over about 90hz.?
OK, I¡¯ll probably start a war¡ but you don¡¯t need huge rpm on router bits or on these mortisers. You can¡¯t manually move the cutters at a rate that justifies all this rpm, all you will get is burning. Now, on a CNC router, different story, it
has the capability to move the cutters at 500-1000ipm and can make use of all that rpm. I have machined mortises on my old Deckel mill and routinely done them at 1200 rpm and they come out great.?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:54 AM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining
the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize
you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.??
Thank?Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around
3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
I use two flute upcut spiral solid carbide end mills in my Multirouter using a variable speed motor 8000-24000rpm. I'm guessing I run it in the 10-12000rpm ballpark. Most often using 1/2 or 3/8" diameters. No burning at all, even at 24,000. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
Joe,
I had to use supplemental holding when I just had single eccentric clamp. When I made clamps for K975, I intentionally used vertical shaft design same as FD250 and bought two extra vertical shafts. This allows me to remove clamps off the vertical shaft of saw and place them on FD250. Have yet to use them and still need to figure out air connections.
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 30, 2021, at 12:55 PM, bacchus6015 via groups.io <joeinno@...> wrote: ? I did not find the speed with the FD250 at 60 Hz to be a problem and had no issue with quality of cut or flat bottoms using birdsbeak bits. I liked the back and forth motion of cutting mortises with BB bits. ?When I first got the FD250 I used to cut a lot of loose tenon joinery and toward the end of having a shop I cut mortises for locking mechanisms on on doors and windows. ?I moved to dowels for the joinery.
Calibration is critical.
Workholding is critical to good results too. ?Adding pneumatic clamps makes the FD250 much faster and helps to get better results. ?I would get pneumatic clamps before I would add a VFD if better results are what you are looking for. ?
If anything I though being able to run more slowly to use Forstner bits would have been nice. ?I did run Forstner bits up to 2 3/8" knowing that they could fail at any minute. ?I was ready with the off switch and had good luck to avoid failure.
John Ferandin and I looked for a Spindle motor to replace the FD250 motor but did not have success as the motors that would spin slowly enough for large bits and still have power were large and expensive. ?Another limiting factor of spindle motors was the size of the collet that was available for a given HP of motor. ?Small spindle motors that would be nice for the FD250 usually had an ER collet of 25 which mould not accommodate a large enough shank size. ?Motors that had an ER32 collet became too responsive to make the mod worth it.?
Hess makes horizontal mortisers with very nice features. ? I looked at lots of companies offerings at LIGNA year after year. ?It seems that the balancing act is between cost and moving to a CNC router. ?If you are going to spend $30k on a horizontal mortiser then moving to a router with much greater capability is reasonable. ?If you are making the same thing over and over like windows and doors then the dedicated horizontal mortiser will probably work better but will be less flexible. ?
As hobbyists with money to spend on very nice industrial machines the flexibility vs dedicated use creates conflicts with machines to add to our shops.
Joe
Brian,
My results were fine with 14mm in Cypress but I took small steps. If endmill won¡¯t allow a bigger step (depth of cut per pass) then i have no interest unless it was cheaper and bits would last longer. I don¡¯t know if end mills can be sharpened but no luck finding anyone to sharpen birdsmouth.
The previous owner demo in hard maple was not good. I don¡¯t plan to get carbide but wanted to compare apples to apples.?
20mm birdsmouth in HSS is still over $100.
Lastly, my perception is that i will get clean bottom holes with end mills. Not sure if that is true.
Imran On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:41 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: ? Are your existing results bad? I doubt it. I wouldn¡¯t spend the money on carbide for the occasional mortise¡ a 3/4¡± carbide extended length end mill will set you back north of $100 and carbide is pretty easy to snap off, especially on these comparatively flexible and rickety machines we are talking about. It would be a different story on a 10,000lb machining center.
Your best bet for 3/4¡± mortises would be an extended length HSS or Cobalt end mill. 4 flute would be stiffer, but because of less room for chip evacuation, it will tend to burn more, so I¡¯d probably try a 2 flute version¡ stiffness in wood isn¡¯t the big issue anyway.
I just want to try and see if better results can be had. Jonathan mentioned center cutting, 4 flute end mills. Does anyone have a recommendation for 3/4¡± end mill? Felder supplied birds mouth is 100mm long for 20mm.
Generic end mills may be more affordable as well. Felder 18mm HW is $150.
Imran?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:07 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: ? VFD rated motors can generally run up to 200hz, CNC router motors up to 400hz. Torque does drop dramatically over about 90hz.?
OK, I¡¯ll probably start a war¡ but you don¡¯t need huge rpm on router bits or on these mortisers. You can¡¯t manually move the cutters at a rate that justifies all this rpm, all you will get is burning. Now, on a CNC router, different story, it has the capability to move the cutters at 500-1000ipm and can make use of all that rpm. I have machined mortises on my old Deckel mill and routinely done them at 1200 rpm and they come out great.?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:54 AM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.??
Thank?Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around 3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
Here is video of the FD250 cutting a mortise with Pneumatic clamps and carbide birdsbeak bit.
Joe
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
Brian,
Not having a reference or working experience makes it difficult to determine what you is good or not. Buying used machine with used bits (previous owner had a small business) another uncertainty. I do know that plunging as you said and cleaning after sounds like a lot faster than my current experience of side to side slitting in small steps.
Imran?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 30, 2021, at 12:41 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote: ? I don¡¯t know that end mills will be any different in depth of cut on side to side passes, but they will plunge better than a birdsmouth bit. I¡¯ve done mortises where you plunge 2¡± deep, step over 1/2 the diameter of the cutter, do it again, then when the whole mortise is plunged, finish it side to side at about 1¡± depth per pass, that¡¯s with a 1/2¡± cutter.
You will get clean bottoms with either cutter, no difference there as long as you are sliding side to side at the bottom.?
Sharpening? How many thousands of mortises do you intend to do? Even a cheap HSS end mill should cut close to a thousand mortises before it gets dull¡ that would be a lifetime of mortises for me.
Brian,
My results were fine with 14mm in Cypress but I took small steps. If endmill won¡¯t allow a bigger step (depth of cut per pass) then i have no interest unless it was cheaper and bits would last longer. I don¡¯t know if end mills can be sharpened but no luck finding anyone to sharpen birdsmouth.
The previous owner demo in hard maple was not good. I don¡¯t plan to get carbide but wanted to compare apples to apples.?
20mm birdsmouth in HSS is still over $100.
Lastly, my perception is that i will get clean bottom holes with end mills. Not sure if that is true.
Imran On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:41 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: ? Are your existing results bad? I doubt it. I wouldn¡¯t spend the money on carbide for the occasional mortise¡ a 3/4¡± carbide extended length end mill will set you back north of $100 and carbide is pretty easy to snap off, especially on these comparatively flexible and rickety machines we are talking about. It would be a different story on a 10,000lb machining center.
Your best bet for 3/4¡± mortises would be an extended length HSS or Cobalt end mill. 4 flute would be stiffer, but because of less room for chip evacuation, it will tend to burn more, so I¡¯d probably try a 2 flute version¡ stiffness in wood isn¡¯t the big issue anyway.
I just want to try and see if better results can be had. Jonathan mentioned center cutting, 4 flute end mills. Does anyone have a recommendation for 3/4¡± end mill? Felder supplied birds mouth is 100mm long for 20mm.
Generic end mills may be more affordable as well. Felder 18mm HW is $150.
Imran?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:07 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: ? VFD rated motors can generally run up to 200hz, CNC router motors up to 400hz. Torque does drop dramatically over about 90hz.?
OK, I¡¯ll probably start a war¡ but you don¡¯t need huge rpm on router bits or on these mortisers. You can¡¯t manually move the cutters at a rate that justifies all this rpm, all you will get is burning. Now, on a CNC router, different story, it has the capability to move the cutters at 500-1000ipm and can make use of all that rpm. I have machined mortises on my old Deckel mill and routinely done them at 1200 rpm and they come out great.?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:54 AM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.??
Thank?Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around 3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
I did not find the speed with the FD250 at 60 Hz to be a problem and had no issue with quality of cut or flat bottoms using birdsbeak bits. I liked the back and forth motion of cutting mortises with BB bits. ?When I first got the FD250 I used to cut a lot of loose tenon joinery and toward the end of having a shop I cut mortises for locking mechanisms on on doors and windows. ?I moved to dowels for the joinery.
Calibration is critical.
Workholding is critical to good results too. ?Adding pneumatic clamps makes the FD250 much faster and helps to get better results. ?I would get pneumatic clamps before I would add a VFD if better results are what you are looking for. ?
If anything I though being able to run more slowly to use Forstner bits would have been nice. ?I did run Forstner bits up to 2 3/8" knowing that they could fail at any minute. ?I was ready with the off switch and had good luck to avoid failure.
John Ferandin and I looked for a Spindle motor to replace the FD250 motor but did not have success as the motors that would spin slowly enough for large bits and still have power were large and expensive. ?Another limiting factor of spindle motors was the size of the collet that was available for a given HP of motor. ?Small spindle motors that would be nice for the FD250 usually had an ER collet of 25 which mould not accommodate a large enough shank size. ?Motors that had an ER32 collet became too responsive to make the mod worth it.?
Hess makes horizontal mortisers with very nice features. ? I looked at lots of companies offerings at LIGNA year after year. ?It seems that the balancing act is between cost and moving to a CNC router. ?If you are going to spend $30k on a horizontal mortiser then moving to a router with much greater capability is reasonable. ?If you are making the same thing over and over like windows and doors then the dedicated horizontal mortiser will probably work better but will be less flexible. ?
As hobbyists with money to spend on very nice industrial machines the flexibility vs dedicated use creates conflicts with machines to add to our shops.
Joe
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Brian,
My results were fine with 14mm in Cypress but I took small steps. If endmill won¡¯t allow a bigger step (depth of cut per pass) then i have no interest unless it was cheaper and bits would last longer. I don¡¯t know if end mills can be sharpened but no luck finding anyone to sharpen birdsmouth.
The previous owner demo in hard maple was not good. I don¡¯t plan to get carbide but wanted to compare apples to apples.?
20mm birdsmouth in HSS is still over $100.
Lastly, my perception is that i will get clean bottom holes with end mills. Not sure if that is true.
Imran On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:41 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: ? Are your existing results bad? I doubt it. I wouldn¡¯t spend the money on carbide for the occasional mortise¡ a 3/4¡± carbide extended length end mill will set you back north of $100 and carbide is pretty easy to snap off, especially on these comparatively flexible and rickety machines we are talking about. It would be a different story on a 10,000lb machining center.
Your best bet for 3/4¡± mortises would be an extended length HSS or Cobalt end mill. 4 flute would be stiffer, but because of less room for chip evacuation, it will tend to burn more, so I¡¯d probably try a 2 flute version¡ stiffness in wood isn¡¯t the big issue anyway.
I just want to try and see if better results can be had. Jonathan mentioned center cutting, 4 flute end mills. Does anyone have a recommendation for 3/4¡± end mill? Felder supplied birds mouth is 100mm long for 20mm.
Generic end mills may be more affordable as well. Felder 18mm HW is $150.
Imran?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:07 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: ? VFD rated motors can generally run up to 200hz, CNC router motors up to 400hz. Torque does drop dramatically over about 90hz.?
OK, I¡¯ll probably start a war¡ but you don¡¯t need huge rpm on router bits or on these mortisers. You can¡¯t manually move the cutters at a rate that justifies all this rpm, all you will get is burning. Now, on a CNC router, different story, it has the capability to move the cutters at 500-1000ipm and can make use of all that rpm. I have machined mortises on my old Deckel mill and routinely done them at 1200 rpm and they come out great.?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:54 AM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.??
Thank?Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around 3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
Re: Felder Feeder for Sale
Good price, you might mention where you are¡ shipping could kill the deal.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I bought this a few years ago but it was too big and heavy a feeder to mount on my Hammer C 331, so I never used it. The fellow I bought it from also had a home workshop. He used it very little; hardly at all? he said. It is in good working condition. It has the tilting device and extension horzontal tube. I hope the photos give most of the info you need, but I can get you more. I have the manuals etc. I want to get $550. U.S for it. <20210122_151251.jpg>
<20210122_151200.jpg>
<20210122_151251.jpg><20210122_151200.jpg>
|
TMichael WARD
imran
Jason Holtz