Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
I just want to try and see if better results can be had. Jonathan mentioned center cutting, 4 flute end mills. Does anyone have a recommendation for 3/4¡± end mill? Felder supplied birds mouth is 100mm long for 20mm.
Generic end mills may be more affordable as well. Felder 18mm HW is $150.
Imran?
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On Jan 30, 2021, at 11:07 AM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote: ? VFD rated motors can generally run up to 200hz, CNC router motors up to 400hz. Torque does drop dramatically over about 90hz.?
OK, I¡¯ll probably start a war¡ but you don¡¯t need huge rpm on router bits or on these mortisers. You can¡¯t manually move the cutters at a rate that justifies all this rpm, all you will get is burning. Now, on a CNC router, different story, it has the capability to move the cutters at 500-1000ipm and can make use of all that rpm. I have machined mortises on my old Deckel mill and routinely done them at 1200 rpm and they come out great.?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:54 AM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.??
Thank?Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around 3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
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Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
That brings up the question, are inverter duty motors balanced for higher speeds than regular motors?? The standard is 125% of rated speed for 2 pole motors or 75 hz.? 4 pole motors are generally balanced to the same specs as 2 pole so in effect to 150 hz.?
My 1800 rpm motor is rated to 6000 rpm, but that is noted on the plate.? Dave
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VFD rated motors can generally run up to 200hz, CNC router motors up to 400hz. Torque does drop dramatically over about 90hz.?
OK, I¡¯ll probably start a war¡ but you don¡¯t need huge rpm on router bits or on these mortisers. You can¡¯t manually move the cutters at a rate that justifies all this rpm, all you will get is burning. Now, on a CNC router, different story, it
has the capability to move the cutters at 500-1000ipm and can make use of all that rpm. I have machined mortises on my old Deckel mill and routinely done them at 1200 rpm and they come out great.?
On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:54 AM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining
the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize
you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.??
Thank?Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around
3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
VFD rated motors can generally run up to 200hz, CNC router motors up to 400hz. Torque does drop dramatically over about 90hz.?
OK, I¡¯ll probably start a war¡ but you don¡¯t need huge rpm on router bits or on these mortisers. You can¡¯t manually move the cutters at a rate that justifies all this rpm, all you will get is burning. Now, on a CNC router, different story, it has the capability to move the cutters at 500-1000ipm and can make use of all that rpm. I have machined mortises on my old Deckel mill and routinely done them at 1200 rpm and they come out great.?
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On Jan 30, 2021, at 7:54 AM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.??
Thank?Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around 3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
A 50 hz 2 pole motor will run at 3000 rpm less slip at 50 hz but speed to 3600 less slip at 60 hz so your bits are probably in the 3450 range +-.? I don't know if the grinding geometry of metal cutting endmills is good or bad for wood.? I have only run single
flute or birds mouth on my FD.? I will run spiral on the
Bacci.? Dave
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David,
My machine label says 50 Hz. I remember speaking to Felder about it and perhaps mentioned it here as well but was told it should be fine. I will check the motor label when I am in shop to see if it states RPM specific to Hz.
It is hard to find end mill info for wood. I found this for uncoated carbide (requiring lowest RPM). If wood equates to plastics than 3/4¡± bit equates to 4100 RPM. So I may be able to try end mills on my FD250 for larger dia. Not sure if they
are produced in lengths needed for FD250.
I know this is a much deeper subject.
Imran
On Jan 30, 2021, at 9:55 AM, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
?
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining
the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize
you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.?
Thank Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around 3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
David,
My machine label says 50 Hz. I remember speaking to Felder about it and perhaps mentioned it here as well but was told it should be fine. I will check the motor label when I am in shop to see if it states RPM specific to Hz.
It is hard to find end mill info for wood. I found this for uncoated carbide (requiring lowest RPM). If wood equates to plastics than 3/4¡± bit equates to 4100 RPM. So I may be able to try end mills on my FD250 for larger dia. Not sure if they are produced in lengths needed for FD250.
I know this is a much deeper subject.
Imran
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On Jan 30, 2021, at 9:55 AM, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote: ?
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining
the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize
you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.?
Thank Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around 3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
Reply to existing email messages or to create a new thread, just send it as an email to the group.
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On Jan 29, 2021, at 7:47 PM, Steve Lyde via < stlyde@...> wrote:
I have had a Hammer A3-31 for 4 years, a ton of Festool and a new Felder K700S arriving in a week or two. ?So looking forward to getting this saw in the shop.? ?
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Welcome to the group, there is a lot of great information here and I often use the search feature. I have appreciated the help that many members offer here. I had a K500P that I recently sold and have a new FELDER on order with expected delivery end of June ? Going to use the time to rethink my shop layout and deal with a lot of accumulated ¡°stuff¡±. Also looking into building a small bump out on the back of my shop to house my Oneida Dust Gorilla Pro and soon to be received Phase Perfect panel. Will need to reconfigure my duct work and run some additional wiring to be ready for my new saw. Fun times
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Re: Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
Given the FD is direct drive, I would think the speed is closer to 3400 in the 60 hz market.? Generally you can overspeed a 2 pole motor to about 90 hz assuming the motor is decent quality.? Downside is that torque will be reduced because you aren't maintaining
the volts/hz ratio.? The benefit and need for higher speed is really for small diameter bits so the reduction in torque might not be a big deal.? 5/8" bits are not a great choice for more speed and less torque.
4 pole or 6 pole motors are good for higher hz and vector duty motors are good for something like 5000-6000 rpm or up to 240 hz.? When you do that you usually oversize the motor to compensate for the loss of torque on the high end.? You also need to realize
you may have way more torque on the low end than what the machine is designed for so care must be taken.?
Thank Brian for straightening me out on this years ago when we had a discussion here about Rong Fu mills.? Dave
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After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around 3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
K Patel, welcome to you as well. Congrats on your new saw. I got lucky and Felder had my saw in stock just sitting in a warehouse, so I jumped on it.?
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Welcome Steve...am new myself and likewise looking to take ownership of a K700S albeit not until summer.
K Patel
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Increasing Motor RPM via VFD
After realizing that people have used end mills on their mortising attachment, I was curious if there is a way to increase the RPM of FD250. The bit on morticing attachment is likely running around 5000 RPM, whereas FD250 is around 3000 RPM.
This article says it can be done as long as motor does not exceed it¡¯s FLA, is not electrically overloaded and operating with it¡¯s mechanical design limits.
Anyone got an idea how much more speed might be possible?
Electrical parts can be measured but I have no clue on mechanical side of what margin might exist.
This may not result in anything meaningful but I like to learn. One thing leads to another ....
Imran
|
Rod
i would like to purchase it if available. Thanks.?
stan
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Welcome, I just recently joined as well. Awesome group and congrats on the K700S!
-Ameer N.
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Re: Calibration of power drive angle
So I was finally able to get the power drive calibrated, first problem was that the programming code in the attached instructions (2505) was not the correct one for my machine. There are 3 codes depending on the installed software, the other 2 are?5850 and 9339, easy enough try each one until you get p99
The only other small thing are two of the angles, 11.2 and 33.7 and how to set the bevel protractor accurately. .2 is 12 min and .7 is 42 min the vernier scale on the protractor only has 5 min div so I just eyeballed it after 10 and the 40, as they say a hair more...?
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On Jan 20, 2021, at 7:55 PM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:
? My understanding is the hard stops are set within a certain distance from/near the limit switches if the hard stops are set to far the motor actually has enough power to pull the brackets off at the welds - or...something like this.? Thanks for the info on that Dave.?
Lucky, maybe I should have included the procedure, I am only familiar with this a little as I run a software validation team for control software which includes encoder motors, basically you show the software different points (sometimes specific points) on the encoder typically the more the better so it can resolve itself. The display is totally passive and is just showing what the motor sees
Attached is the procedure?
<K900_F900_ PowerDrive_E_V02_03-07.pdf> On Jan 20, 2021, at 7:16 PM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote:
? Mark, if you use the hard stops, then force the trunion to go beyond the limits, the system will disable. ?I did this a few months ago, forcing the trunion to minus 1 degree, and it hit the stop and refused to tilt in any direction from there. ? Once the system faults like that, you have to manually apply 24V power to the positioning motor to drive it off the hard stop. ?Once that¡¯s done and the machine power cycled, ?it¡¯s fine again. ?I was able to do this using a 18V battery from one of my cordless drills, but it was certainly a PITA. ?You might ask why I got in this situation to begin with, and it was a simple keying error when I was calibrating the 0¡ã stop. ?
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
Thanks guys, what about the other angles 11,2¡ã; 22,5¡ã; 33,7¡ã? I know about checking the 0 and 90. They Also told me not to adjust the hard stops which makes no sense to me, the encoder motors we use at work utilize hard stops, we don¡¯t like to rely on the software for that ? Thanks David,
Like you and Lucky described, I do the cut test to confirm calibration. I calibrate with precision 90 & 45 squares.
I am just curious what my wixey angle gauge does. If memory serves me right if I zero it on the table it shows 0 or 90 depending upon which side I use on the blade.
I do not like using digital angle gauge for calibration because, well it is digital; you do not know when it is going to flip plus it does have repeatability error.
Imran ? Imran,?
For the 90¡ã stop, I cross cut a 1x3 on edge with the blade fully up, flip the off-cut over, put the two pieces back together on the bench and check with a straight edge. ?Same method with a 1 x 3 at 45 and check for square.
David
I guess i will need to check my angle gauge now. I did not use it to calibrate 90 & 45 stops on the saw though.
Imran ? I¡¯m with Lucky on this one. ?I have not found that the digital angle indicators produce very accurate results when used the set the angle stops on the saw trunion.
On Jan 20, 2021, at 12:26 PM, David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi Mark:
When calibrating my Kappa, I tried the tilt box method and was surprised how inaccurate it was for me. Maybe the fact that the tilt box is not accurate enough, or maybe the fact that a saw blade body is not necessary ground flat, or a combo?
For me, making test cuts in timber and measuring the results yielded the best calibration. 90 degree cuts in two thickish pieces, butt together and check with a straight edge. 45 degree cuts and then check for square.?
I¡¯d be interested in whether the tilt box works for you. Cheers.? ? I have the procedure, is a digital tilt box accurate enough or am I better of using a vernier scale protractor like the Mitutoyo 187-201. Looks like the tilt boxes are accurate within .2deg.
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Joe, did you happen to take a picture of the machine with the modified handle control bracket? ?I am interested to see this modification. ?The clamp does get in the way at times. ?
¡°I modified it in a few ways. ?I added a bracket to shift the control handle so it would not hit the clamp riser on the right hand side of the work table. ?I added a DRO for height to make double rows of dowel repeatable for window and door sash¡±
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I have had a Hammer A3-31 for 4 years, a ton of Festool and a new Felder K700S arriving in a week or two. ?So looking forward to getting this saw in the shop.?
?
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Re: HP needed for heavy cutter?
Mike, ?I had a chance to take a look at your link and I have to say that is fascinating. I had no idea that That was a shout away from my house. The only thing I knew about was the guy that collected tanks. I did get to see part of that years ago. I can't remember his name and not even sure if he is still alive. Very cool what your group has done.
My simpleton thought would be the box May be 10ft w/ a router template and tree guys. I think it would progress pretty fast. The hardest part of this however resetting all that track. My back is hurting just thinking about that part. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
Great stuff ! What a rich resource you guys are.
Here are some thoughts on your excellent replies.
First, Mark T's dwg is correct for the ties. They are 1.5" thick, ~ 16 inches long and 2-1/2" high.? The material is recycled, molded plastic.?
The specs on spacing of the grooves is 7-5/8" +.092, -0.? Or, better said, 7.667 +- .046 if my math is correct.?
Jonathan M: The length of the ties are nominal, so making one cut and flipping them means you handle them twice, and any error in length is translated into an error on spacing.
Hence my desire to make both cuts in one pass.
George W; 18,500 pieces, at 3 per foot means we are refurbishing 6,175' of track with wood ties. Our RR has about 1.8 miles of track, and the older track is on wooden ties, which we are replacing.
Scale for narrow gage is 2.5"/ ft, for standard gage is 1.5"/ ft, so both can run on the same track.
The precision required is to keep the engine wheels on the track, especially on curves, and with variability introduced during th making of the track panels.
You can visit our website at if you want to see the operation.
The CNC machine idea is great, maybe the best, but we are a volunteer organization with a low budget, so looking for reliable, safe, low cost solutions.
We do have folks with excellent metal working capabilities, so making a dedicated machine is not a challenge.
It would be like the Woodmaster that Imram suggested. By the way, the right sized Woodmaster has? 5 hp motor.
Interesting idea to buy one used and resell.
A router table with two routers is a good idea, much easier to make than the dedicated machine.
Mark T.: On a formica (slippery) table with a fence at right angles also good idea. I was thinking of the frame idea so one team could be loading a frame, another pushing it through, third disassembling.
Good choice on the router bits.
Brian: Rebate cutters are also a good idea, because the inside dimension of the cut must be precise, but the outside cut can be a little large, so 50mm or 2" would work
David B. We are vols, so no pay, it is boring, but fun to figure out.
Thanks again.? If this inspires more ideas, I'd love to hear them.
Mike Ward
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I didn't have anyone email me about the Guide, so it's going up on eBay tonight.
Take care,
Rod
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Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
The Hammer A3-41 has the single pole lifting; however, it does have spring assists on both tables, which are co-planar.?
I had a 12" J/P and sold it last summer, as I often wanted to joint surfaces wider than 14". I have a Hammer A3-41 coming next month (?). Covid caused an 8 month wait.?
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imran
JP Rice
Bill Belanger