Re: Electrical Problem with CF731 Pro
Greg, Check the connector too.
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On Jan 20, 2021, at 6:28 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote: ? Greg,
To me, in way of prioritizing the trouble shooting, I would work on the table saw motor cabling. To be precise, the part between selector switch and the disconnect where you isolated the different motors.
Your trouble shooting points to this section of wiring having the problem and it moves from table saw motor to shaper motor and both motors are fine otherwise.
Imran?
On Jan 20, 2021, at 6:11 PM, Greg Goldin <goldinarch@...> wrote:
?Hi Imran,
First, thanks again for thinking about this crazy situation.
Yes!? Same exact outcome:? Shaper motor attached to Table Saw selector terminals fails to start, and moving the selector off that to either J/P or Shaper (now Table Saw) and neither will start.? Must first be sure selector is not on the TDC selection, and then power off, power on.? Then either of the two motors will work so long as I do not move the selector again through the TDC selection.
Any thoughts?
Was just now about to remove the Table Saw stop button from the equation, in two ways.? First, entirely disconnected so the wires are dangling free; second connect the two wires to mimic N/C which is the regular condition of the stop switch(es).? I will report back shortly.
Greg
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switching time and then the setup time on the shaper drives most people away from using it...?
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Re: Electrical Problem with CF731 Pro
Greg,
To me, in way of prioritizing the trouble shooting, I would work on the table saw motor cabling. To be precise, the part between selector switch and the disconnect where you isolated the different motors.
Your trouble shooting points to this section of wiring having the problem and it moves from table saw motor to shaper motor and both motors are fine otherwise.
Imran?
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On Jan 20, 2021, at 6:11 PM, Greg Goldin <goldinarch@...> wrote: ?Hi Imran,
First, thanks again for thinking about this crazy situation.
Yes!? Same exact outcome:? Shaper motor attached to Table Saw selector terminals fails to start, and moving the selector off that to either J/P or Shaper (now Table Saw) and neither will start.? Must first be sure selector is not on the TDC selection, and then power off, power on.? Then either of the two motors will work so long as I do not move the selector again through the TDC selection.
Any thoughts?
Was just now about to remove the Table Saw stop button from the equation, in two ways.? First, entirely disconnected so the wires are dangling free; second connect the two wires to mimic N/C which is the regular condition of the stop switch(es).? I will report back shortly.
Greg
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Re: Electrical Problem with CF731 Pro
Hi Imran,
First, thanks again for thinking about this crazy situation.
Yes!? Same exact outcome:? Shaper motor attached to Table Saw selector terminals fails to start, and moving the selector off that to either J/P or Shaper (now Table Saw) and neither will start.? Must first be sure selector is not on the TDC selection, and then power off, power on.? Then either of the two motors will work so long as I do not move the selector again through the TDC selection.
Any thoughts?
Was just now about to remove the Table Saw stop button from the equation, in two ways.? First, entirely disconnected so the wires are dangling free; second connect the two wires to mimic N/C which is the regular condition of the stop switch(es).? I will report back shortly.
Greg
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Re: Calibration of power drive angle
Thanks David,
Like you and Lucky described, I do the cut test to confirm calibration. I calibrate with precision 90 & 45 squares.
I am just curious what my wixey angle gauge does. If memory serves me right if I zero it on the table it shows 0 or 90 depending upon which side I use on the blade.
I do not like using digital angle gauge for calibration because, well it is digital; you do not know when it is going to flip plus it does have repeatability error.
Imran
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On Jan 20, 2021, at 5:19 PM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote: ? Imran,?
For the 90° stop, I cross cut a 1x3 on edge with the blade fully up, flip the off-cut over, put the two pieces back together on the bench and check with a straight edge. ?Same method with a 1 x 3 at 45 and check for square.
David
I guess i will need to check my angle gauge now. I did not use it to calibrate 90 & 45 stops on the saw though.
Imran ? I’m with Lucky on this one. ?I have not found that the digital angle indicators produce very accurate results when used the set the angle stops on the saw trunion.
On Jan 20, 2021, at 12:26 PM, David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi Mark:
When calibrating my Kappa, I tried the tilt box method and was surprised how inaccurate it was for me. Maybe the fact that the tilt box is not accurate enough, or maybe the fact that a saw blade body is not necessary ground flat, or a combo?
For me, making test cuts in timber and measuring the results yielded the best calibration. 90 degree cuts in two thickish pieces, butt together and check with a straight edge. 45 degree cuts and then check for square.?
I’d be interested in whether the tilt box works for you. Cheers.? ? I have the procedure, is a digital tilt box accurate enough or am I better of using a vernier scale protractor like the Mitutoyo 187-201. Looks like the tilt boxes are accurate within .2deg.
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Re: Calibration of power drive angle
Imran,?
For the 90° stop, I cross cut a 1x3 on edge with the blade fully up, flip the off-cut over, put the two pieces back together on the bench and check with a straight edge. ?Same method with a 1 x 3 at 45 and check for square.
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I guess i will need to check my angle gauge now. I did not use it to calibrate 90 & 45 stops on the saw though.
Imran ? I’m with Lucky on this one. ?I have not found that the digital angle indicators produce very accurate results when used the set the angle stops on the saw trunion.
On Jan 20, 2021, at 12:26 PM, David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi Mark:
When calibrating my Kappa, I tried the tilt box method and was surprised how inaccurate it was for me. Maybe the fact that the tilt box is not accurate enough, or maybe the fact that a saw blade body is not necessary ground flat, or a combo?
For me, making test cuts in timber and measuring the results yielded the best calibration. 90 degree cuts in two thickish pieces, butt together and check with a straight edge. 45 degree cuts and then check for square.?
I’d be interested in whether the tilt box works for you. Cheers.? ? I have the procedure, is a digital tilt box accurate enough or am I better of using a vernier scale protractor like the Mitutoyo 187-201. Looks like the tilt boxes are accurate within .2deg.
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Re: Electrical Problem with CF731 Pro
Hi Greg,
When you plugged shaper motor into table saw position, was the outcome identical to what happens with original wiring and selecting table saw? That is, you have to power cycle to restart?
Imran
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On Jan 20, 2021, at 4:28 PM, Greg Goldin <goldinarch@...> wrote: ?Hi Imran,
Thanks for your thoughts.? I have disconnected what I presumed was the offending motor.? Made no difference.? I have checked resistance across all three fields of each 3 phase motor, 1-2, 1-3, 2-3.? Everything there is normal, no red flags.? I attached the Table Saw motor to the Shaper position on the selector switch, and that motor runs just fine from that position on the selector.
I then wired the Shaper motor to the Table Saw position on the selector switch and, predictably, it would not start.? The Shaper motor works fine connected to its regular location on the switch.
I have also checked continuity on every switch on the machine.? All three safety micro switches, all three stop buttons, all three start buttons.? No failures indicated, at least in continuity tests.
I have made videos of each motor starting and stopping, focusing on the two relays which sequence with the Inverter.? The progression goes: Push start button, K-1 closes (a pair of paddles are visible in a window), the Inverter sends a start signal which closes K-2 (visible by a latch the pulls in when closed and audible from a loud click that latch makes), motor spins.? Push stop, K-2 instantly closes, K-1 remains open until the Inverter decides braking is complete, and then K-1 closes
My next move is to remove the Table Saw stop button from the equation.? Since these are wired in parallel, taking it out might answer the question of whether it is at fault.
Until then, I'll look at Annu's posts.
Thanks,
Greg
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Re: Calibration of power drive angle
I guess i will need to check my angle gauge now. I did not use it to calibrate 90 & 45 stops on the saw though.
Imran
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On Jan 20, 2021, at 4:26 PM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote: ? I’m with Lucky on this one. ?I have not found that the digital angle indicators produce very accurate results when used the set the angle stops on the saw trunion.
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
On Jan 20, 2021, at 12:26 PM, David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi Mark:
When calibrating my Kappa, I tried the tilt box method and was surprised how inaccurate it was for me. Maybe the fact that the tilt box is not accurate enough, or maybe the fact that a saw blade body is not necessary ground flat, or a combo?
For me, making test cuts in timber and measuring the results yielded the best calibration. 90 degree cuts in two thickish pieces, butt together and check with a straight edge. 45 degree cuts and then check for square.?
I’d be interested in whether the tilt box works for you. Cheers.? ? I have the procedure, is a digital tilt box accurate enough or am I better of using a vernier scale protractor like the Mitutoyo 187-201. Looks like the tilt boxes are accurate within .2deg.
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Hi Glen:
Apologies for the delayed reply.
My pleasure for whatever help I was able to give. I also have ongoing “issues” but overall my RL250 is served well. Over the last week it has not been working — which is the first time since 2013 that it would not start. In the end, my electrician discovered that the solenoid governing the water-entry for fire suppression was activating, which in turn cuts all power to the machine. So I had to take off multiple panels to try to trace which sensor was acting up. I did not find the sensors, which are in areas outside the dust filter box, but there are two plastic tubes up high in the dust area which seem to be associated with the metal water pipe and sprinkler system. I had a small amount of chips and dust packed hard in this area, covering the tubes. The chips were long and curly (pine) and unusual for me. I immediately thought of the “Red Grandis” issues that have been reported on the FOG. Anyway, my RL250 is back up, working imperfectly as always. But I’m delighted with the 7 years of non-stop use, despite the design issues.
Ditto on your positive views about the Kappa 400 X-motion. I love my saw too.
You can have your “music in the heavens”. I’m an ACDC “Highway to Hell” kind of guy! LOL. Now, about that road trip, David B., when are you coming to Brisbane?!!!! :-)
Take care.
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Hi Lucky, First I want to thank you for the help with my dust collector way back, and yes I still have a couple of issues with that. my issues are so minor I haven't dealt with them. I know that some here have had issues with Felder, I have not. I had my machines commissioned twice, again not their fault.California likes to turn off the power when there is a breeze. So they could not finish the commission and came back to complete at a later time at no cost to me. I have called to have them come out again and fix the issues months ago and they said no problem, but with covid and my lack of time on the machines< i have delayed it as is so minor. They have a list of every issue I have with every machine and to be honest half of that list has been eliminated because of the operator being me not knowing enough. My issues:
The rip fence was not parallel to the blade and fixed that but it was late into the night as they wanted to not have to come back but we both forgot to reset the computer to the new setting. I bought the 3rd right hand digital stop pre? David Best recommendation but it is programmed backwards and I found that it does not work with the angle compensation of the fence it sits on the shelf. I will deal with it at some point. Lastly I have a sticky fence stop that the micro adjust does not work good, I'm sure it just needs to be taken apart and cleaned, but I don't really know how and I don't want to pull it off the fence in fear of going through resetting it. I found that I can set it easy without the micro adjustment. Some day I will get these issues fixed as Felder is willing to come up and do it, but on the rip fence, I don't use much. I just add .05 and I am good and the sticky outrigger stop I can set that just as fast without the micro adjust.
Before I had two cabinet saws, A left hand tilt and a right hand tilt and they were good, but the Kappa blows them away. I love this saw.
And last, The screen that lets you program dado cuts so the saw adjusts automatically that I thought I would never use..? Use it all the time and have saved my settings ans so far perfect from job to job.
And to Mark, The flip stops have been fine for me no slop but I don't gang cut.
And I will say again I love this saw and the planer/jointer they are a pleasure to use.
Now if I could only get David Best to make a road trip to dial them as well as his, There would be music in the heavens. HInt, Hint, HInt. Glen
?
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
Wouldn’t happen to be not square and plumb digital flip stops would it? On Jan 14, 2021, at 10:46 PM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?Hi Glen:
I’d be interested to know what are your “minor issues” with the saw? ?I have the Kappa 400 X motion and love it.? I went all digital and at first reluctant but very happy now. I have a couple of minor issues but nothing bad, just haven’t gotten around to getting them fixed.? Glen ?After over 22 yrs. in my hobby shop I am changing things up having ordered my fourth and hopefully last saw. I started out in this shop with a Jet cabinet saw, then after 18 yrs decided to upgrade to a SawStop ICS which was a fine saw until I started investigating sliding crosscut for the SawStop and learned about euro sliding table saws. Unfortunately I didn’t know about this group at that time. Replaced my SawStop with the K500P and was hooked on sliders. I have really enjoyed using the K500 but wanted more, so decided to go through the trouble of buying a bigger Felder with 110” slider and all of the digital options. Will also be totally changing my shop layout and have my concrete floors ground down and have an epoxy finish done. I have 20 weeks to prepare for deliver of a Kappa 400 X-motion.? I’ve sold my K500 and it is being picked up in two days. Been busy disassembling everything in preparation for moving day. <21400DDA-961B-4579-82FA-1836E7253D12.jpeg> <E43AE742-5426-4BD8-8C32-F441083C63E7.jpeg> <71E3B4C4-85B5-4EF0-B9A1-0826A1A389ED.jpeg> <C7822B55-83BF-450B-A4B7-4DEFF74E84A2.jpeg> <443E7A74-81FE-4086-BC7F-2E7FCF4166C6.jpeg> <A85AA4DD-0B93-4682-879A-665562785892.jpeg>
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Re: Electrical Problem with CF731 Pro
Hi Imran,
Thanks for your thoughts.? I have disconnected what I presumed was the offending motor.? Made no difference.? I have checked resistance across all three fields of each 3 phase motor, 1-2, 1-3, 2-3.? Everything there is normal, no red flags.? I attached the Table Saw motor to the Shaper position on the selector switch, and that motor runs just fine from that position on the selector.
I then wired the Shaper motor to the Table Saw position on the selector switch and, predictably, it would not start.? The Shaper motor works fine connected to its regular location on the switch.
I have also checked continuity on every switch on the machine.? All three safety micro switches, all three stop buttons, all three start buttons.? No failures indicated, at least in continuity tests.
I have made videos of each motor starting and stopping, focusing on the two relays which sequence with the Inverter.? The progression goes: Push start button, K-1 closes (a pair of paddles are visible in a window), the Inverter sends a start signal which closes K-2 (visible by a latch the pulls in when closed and audible from a loud click that latch makes), motor spins.? Push stop, K-2 instantly closes, K-1 remains open until the Inverter decides braking is complete, and then K-1 closes
My next move is to remove the Table Saw stop button from the equation.? Since these are wired in parallel, taking it out might answer the question of whether it is at fault.
Until then, I'll look at Annu's posts.
Thanks,
Greg
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Re: Electrical Problem with CF731 Pro
Hi Brian,?
I have checked all start and stop buttons, for continuity across the switch, whether N/O or N/C. No problems but I will now triple check since it is a possibility. I am going to entirely remove the table saw switches from equation and see what happens, if anything.
Thanks for the suggestions.?
Greg
On Wed, Jan 20, 2021, 6:46 AM Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: Did you check your saw start button? They tend to get dust inside them and malfunction. Each green button is Normally Open and when you push it, the circuit connects and starts the motor. Each function has it’s own start button. The stop buttons are all in a string, so if any of them are pushed, it will stop any function/motor on the machine.
Hello.? I've been experiencing exasperating problems with the start function on my machine. I can now probably write a book about this, but suffice to say that when the selector switch is set to Table Saw, the machine fails to start.? I've worked quite a bit with Phillip Dingus at Felder.? He's been a champion, but we've failed to figure out what is happening.? I sprung for a whopping $700 to buy a new selector switch, which I meticulously installed, terminal for terminal, wire for wire, with zero effect.? The machine will start when set to J/P and Shaper, in forward or reverse, but any time the selector passes through TDC (which is the Table Saw), no machine will subsequently start.? I am wondering if there is anyone in the group who is sufficiently wise in the ways of electrical engineering to help me through the wiring diagram to perhaps pinpoint what is going wrong.? I have also traced every single wire in the machine, and compared the "as-is" wiring to the wiring diagram furnished by Felder.? There are some anomalies, but the machine worked flawlessly as wired for 19-1/2 years, so...go figure.? Any ideas of where to turn?? Thanks!? Greg
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Re: Calibration of power drive angle
I’m with Lucky on this one. ?I have not found that the digital angle indicators produce very accurate results when used the set the angle stops on the saw trunion.
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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On Jan 20, 2021, at 12:26 PM, David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi Mark:
When calibrating my Kappa, I tried the tilt box method and was surprised how inaccurate it was for me. Maybe the fact that the tilt box is not accurate enough, or maybe the fact that a saw blade body is not necessary ground flat, or a combo?
For me, making test cuts in timber and measuring the results yielded the best calibration. 90 degree cuts in two thickish pieces, butt together and check with a straight edge. 45 degree cuts and then check for square.?
I’d be interested in whether the tilt box works for you. Cheers.? ? I have the procedure, is a digital tilt box accurate enough or am I better of using a vernier scale protractor like the Mitutoyo 187-201. Looks like the tilt boxes are accurate within .2deg.
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Re: Job site saw recommendation?
I too have that little Dewalt. I can't find much fault with it either. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Re: Calibration of power drive angle
Hi Mark:
When calibrating my Kappa, I tried the tilt box method and was surprised how inaccurate it was for me. Maybe the fact that the tilt box is not accurate enough, or maybe the fact that a saw blade body is not necessary ground flat, or a combo?
For me, making test cuts in timber and measuring the results yielded the best calibration. 90 degree cuts in two thickish pieces, butt together and check with a straight edge. 45 degree cuts and then check for square.?
I’d be interested in whether the tilt box works for you. Cheers.?
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On 21 Jan 2021, at 4:52 am, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:
? I have the procedure, is a digital tilt box accurate enough or am I better of using a vernier scale protractor like the Mitutoyo 187-201. Looks like the tilt boxes are accurate within .2deg.
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Re: Job site saw recommendation?
James and Bird,?
Thanks for the responses! I'll certainly add the Dewalt to the list of saws to check out. ?Always love hearing positive responses from members here. ?
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On Jan 20, 2021, at 1:28 PM, Bird Cupps < birdc@...> wrote:
I have used the Dewalt for years. I love that saw. It’s got a solid little fence that doesn’t flex because it’s locked down at both ends. I use it all the time.
Since you will give the saw to your dad eventually, then buy the best job site saw, that is a great way to say Thank You.
James On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 12:17 PM Anthony Quesada < tonymiga2@...> wrote: As mentioned previously, we are about to start the new workshop.? Looking for a stop-gap saw to help with the construction and until I move into the bigger space where I will get another slider.? There will be a full time contractor with his own tools, but I will be helping out and will want to be making things on nights and weekends too over the next year +. ? ?
Any recommendations for "job site" saw I’ll be able to use for the barn construction and for occasional site work down the road?? I have a track saw so I will be using this TS more for repetitive rips and cross cuts (with sled). ? ?
I believe that Mac has an Erika and seems to like it?? From what I have seen and heard at the mafell forums, it looks like a fantastic saw.? Any other brand or model recommendations from those that may have a smaller saw in their arsenal or should the Erika be at the top of the list? ? ?
I also plan on gifting this saw to my dad (we share the shop space) once I get a slider.? He doesn’t have any interest in learning how to use the sliding saw, but since he has so graciously allowed me to move into his shop and now add an addition I want to give him a little thank you and upgrade his 40 year old “job site saw.” ?
thanks so much,? Anthony?
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Re: Calibration of power drive angle
ack… closer to 2 times better, so your choice. Neither one are very close when you are talking metal working, but for wood….
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On Jan 20, 2021, at 1:04 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Graduations on the Mitutoyo are 5 minutes, that’s 1/12?, which is .00145” per inch, which by my math is roughly 3 times better than .0035”.
Thanks, is it even possible to set a vernier like the Mitutoyo within that range? Assuming it is calibrated and you are staring at the scale dead on On Jan 20, 2021, at 2:22 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
? That’s (.2?) basically .0035” per inch… your decision.
I have the procedure, is a digital tilt box accurate enough or am I better of using a vernier scale protractor like the Mitutoyo 187-201. Looks like the tilt boxes are accurate within .2deg.
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Re: Calibration of power drive angle
Graduations on the Mitutoyo are 5 minutes, that’s 1/12?, which is .00145” per inch, which by my math is roughly 3 times better than .0035”.
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Thanks, is it even possible to set a vernier like the Mitutoyo within that range? Assuming it is calibrated and you are staring at the scale dead on On Jan 20, 2021, at 2:22 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
? That’s (.2?) basically .0035” per inch… your decision.
I have the procedure, is a digital tilt box accurate enough or am I better of using a vernier scale protractor like the Mitutoyo 187-201. Looks like the tilt boxes are accurate within .2deg.
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Re: Calibration of power drive angle
Thanks, is it even possible to set a vernier like the Mitutoyo within that range? Assuming it is calibrated and you are staring at the scale dead on
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On Jan 20, 2021, at 2:22 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
? That’s (.2?) basically .0035” per inch… your decision.
I have the procedure, is a digital tilt box accurate enough or am I better of using a vernier scale protractor like the Mitutoyo 187-201. Looks like the tilt boxes are accurate within .2deg.
|
Re: Calibration of power drive angle
That’s (.2?) basically .0035” per inch… your decision.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I have the procedure, is a digital tilt box accurate enough or am I better of using a vernier scale protractor like the Mitutoyo 187-201. Looks like the tilt boxes are accurate within .2deg.
|
Calibration of power drive angle
I have the procedure, is a digital tilt box accurate enough or am I better of using a vernier scale protractor like the Mitutoyo 187-201. Looks like the tilt boxes are accurate within .2deg.
|
imran
Albert Lee
David P. Best
David Luckensmeyer
Jason Holtz