Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
I¡¯m getting a bit confused over here in the UK..sequence of emails seems to be haywire.
Annu¡if there is a short on your motor then I would expect your breaker to cut-out and/or the thermal overload on the C3-031 to kick in. ?Can we have a recap please ? ?Slow and methodical is the preferred option !
For this test, uncouple the planer/thicknesser motor.
My understanding is that now : 1) Disconnect power to the C3-31. Put the machine table saw mode. ?Apply power to the C3-31 but do not try the On button on the C3-31. ?All is quiet. ?OK ? ?If so go to (2). If not, report back.
2) Hit the On button, the table saw starts up. ?Hit stop and it comes to a halt - within the time that you¡¯d expect it to. ?No unexpected noises etc. No unexpected behaviour. ?OK ? ?If so go to (3). If not, report back.
3) Disconnect power to the C3-31. Put the machine in shaper mode. Apply power to the C3-31 but do not try the On button on the C3-31. ?All is quiet. ?OK ? ?If so go to (4). If not, report back.
4) Hit the On button, the shaper starts up. ?Hit stop and it comes to a halt - within the time that you¡¯d expect it to. ?No unexpected noises etc. No unexpected behaviour. ?OK ??
5) Disconnect power to the C3-31. RECONNECT the planer/thicknesser plug. ? Leave the machine in shaper mode. Apply power to the C3-31 but do not try the On button on the C3-31. ?All is quiet. ?OK ??
Let¡¯s see how the above pans out before going any further.
Roger
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Roger/Imran,?
I made some progress.? So far, i have replaced the brake board and the two CAPS.? I relized i made one mistake.? On the bottom of the electrical box, there are a total of 4 connectors.? There is one for the shaper motor, one for the table saw motor, one for the planer motor, and one that has two wires comming off that go into the general area of the planer/thicknesser.? I'm not sure what those wires are for, but one of them must be for the safety switch on the planer/thicknessor.? When i was doing my different scenarios earlier, i did not have that 4th connector plugged in.? Since that planer safety switch was disconnected, the table saw and shaper did not start up.? So I unplugged the planer motor, and plugged in the other three connectors.? The table saw and shaper now startup without issue.? So the questions i need to figure out are:??
When everything is plugged in like its supposed to be and I turn on the circut breaker
1.? When the machine is table saw or shaper mode, why is the ebrake on the planner activating?
2.? When machine is in planer mode, why is it making a racket going back and forth and surging?? The racket is because the the rollers for thicknesser, which are chain driven, are also surging.
So now, i have 2/4 functions working....I'm getting the bad feeling that there is a electrical short on the planer motor.? I'm still holding out hope that Felder tells me its something simple still.?
Has anyone changed out a motor on a C-31?
-Annu
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Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
I have an A331 and had a similar battle and ultimately went with the 12¡±. It has been two yrs and I have only once came up against anything close to 12¡± max width. Large butcher blocks is one of the only things that I think would regularly need a larger jointer. Like mentioned above I would just use a router sled if I had something larger. Only thing that would be nice would be the longer beds.?
The machine arrived and I had no issues with table alignment?
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Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
I completely agree with Hamish.? When I had straight knives I NEVER went from planer to finish.? For fine projects I use a card scraper and for all
else they have sanded starting at 150 out of the drum sander and then orbital up to 320.? I love the finish on a board from a hand plane but I¡¯ve never seen that with a power planer.? With straight knives there are tiny ridges running across the board and
with the Byrd head I get tiny scallops.? Both need to be removed.? I have lusted after a Japanese power plane but I essentially never work with soft wood and I almost always use the most figured wood I can.
?
I can sand out or hand scrape the tiny scallops but I can never sand out tear out.? ?On my jointer I went from conventional straight knives to a Terminus
head which is a Tersa clone.?? With fresh knives it cut amazing.? But after surfacing a couple hundred board feet of rough sawn hardwood the finish was so-so.? The knives just didn¡¯t stay sharp.? Yes easy to change but for the finish I wanted it would have
cost me a ton of money. I suppose I could have modified my workflow to process all the rough sawn surfaces first and then swapped blades but I hate to change workflow. I swapped the 8¡± jointer to a Byrd and I loved it.? Then I upgraded to a 12¡± SCMI jointer
and the first thing I did was get a Byrd head.? Then my planer got one.
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Hamish Casimir
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2021 3:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
?
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get
a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart,
for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it¡¯s a no brainer. ?It¡¯s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn¡¯t require a torque wrench.?
?
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking
for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared
with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time,
effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough
to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
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Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
If you work at a chemical plant, utilize your resources: 1. Find a plant maintenace?mechanic, electrician or E&I technician to hire for side work. 2. Find out the nameplate on the motor and find out your electric motor rebuild/replace warehouse vendors and make contact. 3. Most of these smaller motors are cheaper to replace than rebuild, but a motor house can surprise?you once they take it in on the bench. I've had rewindings on small or specialty motors that were scheduled only to find once they did the initial teardown it was an easy winding repair instead for cheap.
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 8:51 AM Roger S < rsinden@...> wrote: Annu
I think you are getting ahead of yourself.? As Imran has said, you will not be power until you hit the on/off switch. ?
Please.? Don't go ahead ordering motors etc until you have tried bypassing that brake board.
Roger
Well Folks,
My nightmare is confirmed.? The planer motor has a short in it.? I've had the machine for less than 2 years and have maybe a total of 40hrs of runtime on it.? Bringing Felder out to change out the motor will cost an arm and a leg.? I'm hoping with some direction from felder and a lot of help with some of the folks I work with at the chemical plant, I'll be able to change it out.? I'll keep ya'll posted.??
P.S.? Checking for the short was easy...we checked continuity between the two wires to each winding and the ground on the motor quick disconnect.
-Annu
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
Annu,
I guess a possibility is that the motor is being controlled by only switching one line vs both. In that scenario, your contactor could be fine and the short to ground is in affect as soon as you apply power to machine.
Imran
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On Jan 13, 2021, at 9:44 AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote: ? Annu,
If you measure a short to ground from any of the two power lines that is a good test. The winding is low resistance and will measure low ohms even on a good motor between the two power lines.
You definitely have more issues than just the motor. There should not be power to the motor w/o pushing the start button.
Can you confirm that brake function is normal on saw and shaper?
Good luck.
Imran
On Jan 13, 2021, at 9:34 AM, annu.marwaha@... wrote:
?Well Folks,
My nightmare is confirmed.? The planer motor has a short in it.? I've had the machine for less than 2 years and have maybe a total of 40hrs of runtime on it.? Bringing Felder out to change out the motor will cost an arm and a leg.? I'm hoping with some direction from felder and a lot of help with some of the folks I work with at the chemical plant, I'll be able to change it out.? I'll keep ya'll posted.??
P.S.? Checking for the short was easy...we checked continuity between the two wires to each winding and the ground on the motor quick disconnect.
-Annu
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Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
Annu
I think you are getting ahead of yourself. ?As Imran has said, you will not be power until you hit the on/off switch. ?
Please. ?Don't go ahead ordering motors etc until you have tried bypassing that brake board.
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Well Folks,
My nightmare is confirmed.? The planer motor has a short in it.? I've had the machine for less than 2 years and have maybe a total of 40hrs of runtime on it.? Bringing Felder out to change out the motor will cost an arm and a leg.? I'm hoping with some direction from felder and a lot of help with some of the folks I work with at the chemical plant, I'll be able to change it out.? I'll keep ya'll posted.??
P.S.? Checking for the short was easy...we checked continuity between the two wires to each winding and the ground on the motor quick disconnect.
-Annu
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Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
Annu,
If you measure a short to ground from any of the two power lines that is a good test. The winding is low resistance and will measure low ohms even on a good motor between the two power lines.
You definitely have more issues than just the motor. There should not be power to the motor w/o pushing the start button.
Can you confirm that brake function is normal on saw and shaper?
Good luck.
Imran
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On Jan 13, 2021, at 9:34 AM, annu.marwaha@... wrote: ?Well Folks,
My nightmare is confirmed.? The planer motor has a short in it.? I've had the machine for less than 2 years and have maybe a total of 40hrs of runtime on it.? Bringing Felder out to change out the motor will cost an arm and a leg.? I'm hoping with some direction from felder and a lot of help with some of the folks I work with at the chemical plant, I'll be able to change it out.? I'll keep ya'll posted.??
P.S.? Checking for the short was easy...we checked continuity between the two wires to each winding and the ground on the motor quick disconnect.
-Annu
|
Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
Well Folks,
My nightmare is confirmed.? The planer motor has a short in it.? I've had the machine for less than 2 years and have maybe a total of 40hrs of runtime on it.? Bringing Felder out to change out the motor will cost an arm and a leg.? I'm hoping with some direction from felder and a lot of help with some of the folks I work with at the chemical plant, I'll be able to change it out.? I'll keep ya'll posted.??
P.S.? Checking for the short was easy...we checked continuity between the two wires to each winding and the ground on the motor quick disconnect.
-Annu
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Richard, I can¡¯t add anything to what Paul has said... it¡¯s spot on! Cleanliness and light lubrication helps make them float better but Paul is right they do get cracked up with dust etc! Only two other things that I¡¯ve found help and they¡¯re the obvious really. Keep the serrated drive roller clear of resins and dust... sets like glue an make sure they¡¯ve got sharpish edges! And the one that gets all newcomers is keep the rise and fall table spotless, polish with a light sand paper, you¡¯ll be suprised how much your going to find that needs flatting/cleaning then wax it and polish it back. Dragging on the table will overcome the best drive roller as the machine is pushing it down onto it! You¡¯ve tackled one of the most boring jobs.... the anti cickback system!
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On 13 Jan 2021, at 14:12, richard_markham@... via groups.io <richard_markham@...> wrote:
? Thanks Paul, ? It may be a combination of my inexperience with the machine and it¡¯s lack of use¡ ? I¡¯ve run a few bits of timber through it and its working pretty good now. No marks or snipe. ? Given that the machine was outside under a tarp for a year or so, it¡¯s taking a while for everything to free up a bit. ? I was also being a bit over cautious feeding the timber into the first roller! ? I think my rollers are about 3mm below the cutter blades so they are in the right ballpark. ? ? Amazing how nice an old bit of sawn carcassing timber comes out! ? ? Thanks again! ? Cheers, ? Richard. ? ? My springs for the infeed and out feed rollers only have about 7-8mm of compression in them, therefore the rollers should sit between 3 and 4mm below the block, ?this helps to ensure that any slightly undersized or tapering pieces do not come back at you and the anti kick back fingers. With the limited compression of the springs this also limits the maximum cut the you can try to take? before the infeed roller wont allow the timber to actually go through the machine. As to setting the pressure, check under the threaded plug that retains the spring on the top to make sure there are no shims or washers in there, its some thing people have done to compensate for worn or damaged springs in the past. Also make sure that the springs and other parts are not choked with dust especially on the internal side of the machine as it is not sealed from the rest. It is also useful to check that the springs are also the same height when out of the machine, or at the very least the pairs are the same height. The lower bolts control the height and level of the roller in relation to the cutting circle of the cutter block. Correctly set the top of the spring should be lightly in contact with the top plug not much more than 1/2 turn. What the correct pressure is largely depends on what you are using the machine for, stating the obvious if all you are running is small sections in softwood then a lighter pressure will be appropriate, conversely if you are putting 12" wide hard wood through heavier pressures are needed. The only real adjustment for pressure is to raise or lower the whole roller, you can try packing the springs with shims if you want lower rollers and higher pressure. But bear in mind the table is centre column mounted so at some point the pressure can be enough to deflect the table. Correctly set I would expect to have to take 1.5mm off a 50mm wide piece of softwood to clear the infeed roller marks and between .5 and .7 of a mm on a similar width piece of European oak and that is about the best guidance I can give. All in all it's another balancing act especially if you are using a wide range of timbers.
Me again! Checking out the planer thicknesser.
I'm finding that the feed rollers might need adjustment as they are a good way lower than the cutter knives and I think they are over clamping the timber.
Needless to say, no mention of this in the manual...
I can see there is a large recessed nut on top the roller bearings, I assume this retains the springs.
On the underside, through the rectangluar access hole, I can see a bolt and nut.
What is the recommended setting for the rollers and how are they adjusted?
Cheers!
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Thanks Paul, ? It may be a combination of my inexperience with the machine and it¡¯s lack of use¡ ? I¡¯ve run a few bits of timber through it and its working pretty good now. No marks or snipe. ? Given that the machine was outside under a tarp for a year or so, it¡¯s taking a while for everything to free up a bit. ? I was also being a bit over cautious feeding the timber into the first roller! ? I think my rollers are about 3mm below the cutter blades so they are in the right ballpark. ? ? Amazing how nice an old bit of sawn carcassing timber comes out! ? ? Thanks again! ? Cheers, ? Richard. ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Curme
Sent: 13 January 2021 13:30
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] BF6 Planer thicknesser roller adjustment #jointerplaner? My springs for the infeed and out feed rollers only have about 7-8mm of compression in them, therefore the rollers should sit between 3 and 4mm below the block, ?this helps to ensure that any slightly undersized or tapering pieces do not come back at you and the anti kick back fingers. With the limited compression of the springs this also limits the maximum cut the you can try to take? before the infeed roller wont allow the timber to actually go through the machine. As to setting the pressure, check under the threaded plug that retains the spring on the top to make sure there are no shims or washers in there, its some thing people have done to compensate for worn or damaged springs in the past. Also make sure that the springs and other parts are not choked with dust especially on the internal side of the machine as it is not sealed from the rest. It is also useful to check that the springs are also the same height when out of the machine, or at the very least the pairs are the same height. The lower bolts control the height and level of the roller in relation to the cutting circle of the cutter block. Correctly set the top of the spring should be lightly in contact with the top plug not much more than 1/2 turn. What the correct pressure is largely depends on what you are using the machine for, stating the obvious if all you are running is small sections in softwood then a lighter pressure will be appropriate, conversely if you are putting 12" wide hard wood through heavier pressures are needed. The only real adjustment for pressure is to raise or lower the whole roller, you can try packing the springs with shims if you want lower rollers and higher pressure. But bear in mind the table is centre column mounted so at some point the pressure can be enough to deflect the table. Correctly set I would expect to have to take 1.5mm off a 50mm wide piece of softwood to clear the infeed roller marks and between .5 and .7 of a mm on a similar width piece of European oak and that is about the best guidance I can give. All in all it's another balancing act especially if you are using a wide range of timbers.
Me again! Checking out the planer thicknesser.
I'm finding that the feed rollers might need adjustment as they are a good way lower than the cutter knives and I think they are over clamping the timber.
Needless to say, no mention of this in the manual...
I can see there is a large recessed nut on top the roller bearings, I assume this retains the springs.
On the underside, through the rectangluar access hole, I can see a bolt and nut.
What is the recommended setting for the rollers and how are they adjusted?
Cheers!
|
Richard,
My springs for the infeed and out feed rollers only have about 7-8mm of compression in them, therefore the rollers should sit between 3 and 4mm below the block,
?this helps to ensure that any slightly undersized or tapering pieces do not come back at you and the anti kick back fingers.
With the limited compression of the springs this also limits the maximum cut the you can try to take? before the infeed roller wont allow the timber to actually go through the machine.
As to setting the pressure, check under the threaded plug that retains the spring on the top to make sure there are no shims or washers in there, its some thing people have done to compensate for worn or damaged springs in the past.
Also make sure that the springs and other parts are not choked with dust especially on the internal side of the machine as it is not sealed from the rest.
It is also useful to check that the springs are also the same height when out of the machine, or at the very least the pairs are the same height.
The lower bolts control the height and level of the roller in relation to the cutting circle of the cutter block.
Correctly set the top of the spring should be lightly in contact with the top plug not much more than 1/2 turn.
What the correct pressure is largely depends on what you are using the machine for, stating the obvious if all you are running is small sections in softwood then a lighter pressure will be appropriate, conversely if you are putting 12" wide hard wood through
heavier pressures are needed.
The only real adjustment for pressure is to raise or lower the whole roller, you can try packing the springs with shims if you want lower rollers and higher pressure.
But bear in mind the table is centre column mounted so at some point the pressure can be enough to deflect the table.
Correctly set I would expect to have to take 1.5mm off a 50mm wide piece of softwood to clear the infeed roller marks and between .5 and .7 of a mm on a similar width piece of European oak and that is about the best guidance I can give.
All in all it's another balancing act especially if you are using a wide range of timbers.
I trust this helps.
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Me again! Checking out the planer thicknesser.
I'm finding that the feed rollers might need adjustment as they are a good way lower than the cutter knives and I think they are over clamping the timber.
Needless to say, no mention of this in the manual...
I can see there is a large recessed nut on top the roller bearings, I assume this retains the springs.
On the underside, through the rectangluar access hole, I can see a bolt and nut.
What is the recommended setting for the rollers and how are they adjusted?
Cheers!
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Re: New (to me) Felder Owner
Welcome Ameer, Looks like you scored some nice machines. Too bad the previous owner never got to use them. We have two of the same KF's in our shop, 2001 models. I know the thing inside and out pretty well. Count your blessings you're 3 phase because the built in inverter is known to go out 15 years in. It was a real PITA to deal with.
I'm not aware of any dado options except for a wider kerf blade as Imran suggested. I suspect you won't fit much more than 1/4" given the proximity to the slider table. If you haven't yet, order a set of pneumatic clamps from Mac or make a set yourself if you're inclined. I've made a couple pairs and cannot imagine using a slider without them. Just the other day I needed to trim steam bent table aprons to length. This was a 2 minute job, literally no prep work at all. You can see my blade guard mounted laser on the left, and the clear line on the rear line at the back of the cut. Worked perfectly. Try doing that on a cabinet saw or a slider without clamps!
Feel free to reach out if you have questions as you start using the tools.
Jason
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Re: New (to me) Felder Owner
Ameer,
Welcome to the group. KF700 looks in good shape and although hard to see per your description AD741 had never been used. Looks like you are very fortunate to have found these machines and put them to good use.
Now that you mention it, I recall some proposals here for a tooling that could allow adding dado function to a machine w/o dado capability. I do not recall seeing a working tooling.
Felder does offer some wide Kerf blades, IIRC 5mm being widest. Felder also offers slotting blades.
Later,
Imran
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On Jan 13, 2021, at 7:08 AM, Ameer Navidi <highentropy@...> wrote: ?Hello Everyone. I acquired a few Felder machines recently and am diving head first into the world of Felder equipment. I got a KF 700 built in 2002, an AF-22 dust collector also 2002 and an AD 741 built 2004. They are all three phase and came with a rotary phase converter. The previous owner passed away and his wife only had a small folder of paperwork to give me. He bought the KF 700 used but I had only been setup and tested. The AD 741 has never been used, I cleaned the cosmoline off and had to attach a plug since the power cord just had pigtails. The RPC had also never been spun or hooked up.? So I immediately contacted David Best and purchased a pdf copy of the Unofficial Felder Survival Guide. I haven't read the whole thing but I have scanned it a few times through, and used it to figure out things that weren't intuitive to me. Last week the electrician wired everything up, and then on Friday I moved the machines into the shop. Gave everything a spin just to make sure that the wiring was correct and everything spun the right direction. Since then I've been cleaning, de-rusting, and doing a lot of reading/internet researching as this is MUCH different than the Grizzly tools circa 2006 that I've been using. It's overwhelming but in a good way, going to have to re-write my workflows. I look forward to the challenge and potential growth. Off the bat I've learned that this KF700 does not have the dado option, which is something I use from time to time. I suppose I can design around my new circumstances, but just a cursory look inside the saw I assume it's much more complicated to "add" the dado option after the machine has left the shop. The dust shroud and riving knife mount don't look like they'd allow any sort of dado stack/grooving tooling. Has anyone converted a non-dado option to a dado option? I also have a few pieces that I just don't know where they belong (or if they do) since the previous owner wasn't able to tell me what parts went with what. I'll post more detailed questions in the future, but for now just wanted to introduce myself and say thank you for all who have contributed here as I've already learned quite a bit just searching and reading the archives of this amazing forum. Please excuse the poor pics, I haven't taken proper photos yet!? <UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_259cb.jpg> <UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_258b4.jpg> <UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_259a6.jpg> --- Ameer
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Me again! Checking out the planer thicknesser.
I'm finding that the feed rollers might need adjustment as they are a good way lower than the cutter knives and I think they are over clamping the timber.
Needless to say, no mention of this in the manual...
I can see there is a large recessed nut on top the roller bearings, I assume this retains the springs.
On the underside, through the rectangluar access hole, I can see a bolt and nut.
What is the recommended setting for the rollers and how are they adjusted?
Cheers!
|
Hello Everyone. I acquired a few Felder machines recently and am diving head first into the world of Felder equipment. I got a KF 700 built in 2002, an AF-22 dust collector also 2002 and an AD 741 built 2004. They are all three phase and came with a rotary phase converter. The previous owner passed away and his wife only had a small folder of paperwork to give me. He bought the KF 700 used but I had only been setup and tested. The AD 741 has never been used, I cleaned the cosmoline off and had to attach a plug since the power cord just had pigtails. The RPC had also never been spun or hooked up.? So I immediately contacted David Best and purchased a pdf copy of the Unofficial Felder Survival Guide. I haven't read the whole thing but I have scanned it a few times through, and used it to figure out things that weren't intuitive to me. Last week the electrician wired everything up, and then on Friday I moved the machines into the shop. Gave everything a spin just to make sure that the wiring was correct and everything spun the right direction. Since then I've been cleaning, de-rusting, and doing a lot of reading/internet researching as this is MUCH different than the Grizzly tools circa 2006 that I've been using. It's overwhelming but in a good way, going to have to re-write my workflows. I look forward to the challenge and potential growth. Off the bat I've learned that this KF700 does not have the dado option, which is something I use from time to time. I suppose I can design around my new circumstances, but just a cursory look inside the saw I assume it's much more complicated to "add" the dado option after the machine has left the shop. The dust shroud and riving knife mount don't look like they'd allow any sort of dado stack/grooving tooling. Has anyone converted a non-dado option to a dado option? I also have a few pieces that I just don't know where they belong (or if they do) since the previous owner wasn't able to tell me what parts went with what. I'll post more detailed questions in the future, but for now just wanted to introduce myself and say thank you for all who have contributed here as I've already learned quite a bit just searching and reading the archives of this amazing forum. Please excuse the poor pics, I haven't taken proper photos yet!?    --- Ameer
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Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
Annu,
Good progress. At this time without knowing exactly how everything is connected it is hard for me to guide you.
You gave good power to the machine. I assume saw and shaper brake on turn off which says brake board is good.
My guess is that the J/P motor contactor is stuck on. It could have happened on it¡¯s own or due to high current of shorted motor but the contactor is suppose to have current sense protection.
Brake board has to be upstream so that it can work with all motors. It is possible that due to bad J/P contactor brake board is getting activated. And when you select J/P things get more complicated because now you have power to the J/P motor.
Just guesses at this point. I think with what you know you should make good progress with felder tech.
keep us posted. good luck.
Imran?
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On Jan 13, 2021, at 12:48 AM, annu.marwaha@... wrote: ?Roger/Imran,?
I made some progress.? So far, i have replaced the brake board and the two CAPS.? I relized i made one mistake.? On the bottom of the electrical box, there are a total of 4 connectors.? There is one for the shaper motor, one for the table saw motor, one for the planer motor, and one that has two wires comming off that go into the general area of the planer/thicknesser.? I'm not sure what those wires are for, but one of them must be for the safety switch on the planer/thicknessor.? When i was doing my different scenarios earlier, i did not have that 4th connector plugged in.? Since that planer safety switch was disconnected, the table saw and shaper did not start up.? So I unplugged the planer motor, and plugged in the other three connectors.? The table saw and shaper now startup without issue.? So the questions i need to figure out are:??
When everything is plugged in like its supposed to be and I turn on the circut breaker
1.? When the machine is table saw or shaper mode, why is the ebrake on the planner activating?
2.? When machine is in planer mode, why is it making a racket going back and forth and surging?? The racket is because the the rollers for thicknesser, which are chain driven, are also surging.
So now, i have 2/4 functions working....I'm getting the bad feeling that there is a electrical short on the planer motor.? I'm still holding out hope that Felder tells me its something simple still.?
Has anyone changed out a motor on a C-31?
-Annu
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Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
Roger/Imran,?
I made some progress.? So far, i have replaced the brake board and the two CAPS.? I relized i made one mistake.? On the bottom of the electrical box, there are a total of 4 connectors.? There is one for the shaper motor, one for the table saw motor, one for the planer motor, and one that has two wires comming off that go into the general area of the planer/thicknesser.? I'm not sure what those wires are for, but one of them must be for the safety switch on the planer/thicknessor.? When i was doing my different scenarios earlier, i did not have that 4th connector plugged in.? Since that planer safety switch was disconnected, the table saw and shaper did not start up.? So I unplugged the planer motor, and plugged in the other three connectors.? The table saw and shaper now startup without issue.? So the questions i need to figure out are:??
When everything is plugged in like its supposed to be and I turn on the circut breaker
1.? When the machine is table saw or shaper mode, why is the ebrake on the planner activating?
2.? When machine is in planer mode, why is it making a racket going back and forth and surging?? The racket is because the the rollers for thicknesser, which are chain driven, are also surging.
So now, i have 2/4 functions working....I'm getting the bad feeling that there is a electrical short on the planer motor.? I'm still holding out hope that Felder tells me its something simple still.?
Has anyone changed out a motor on a C-31?
-Annu
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Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
Hi Hamish:
Nice. Emu Plains is a very nice part of the world. About 15 years ago I flew down to Sydney to see the Dual 51 in the Sydney showroom and bought it not long after.
I used to have a 1 car garage space so I know what it is like. You can do a lot, as I¡¯m sure you do.
Ahem, I can¡¯t justify a Sauer and Steiner either. I wanted a Mike Wenzloff saw and decided I couldn¡¯t ever afford one, until one year I decided to go for it only to find that he had retired a few years earlier. Then Konradt had an accident and stopped making for a while and I realised that if I didn¡¯t just order one, I¡¯d probably never have one.
Besides, Holtey planes cost way too much! LOL
Yes, I have LNs, HNTs, and LVs as well. All very good planes. I use them a lot. I can¡¯t say that the Sauer and Steiner is demonstrably better, but I LOVE it a whole lot more! And I use it. No putting it on the shelf for me.
Take care,
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Show quoted text
Hey Lucky, If I had the space I'd get a wide belt sander too. Very small shop, 1 car garage. Somehow I make it work(well most of the time, but it is pretty crammed).
Sauer and Steiner's have to be about the most beautiful hand planes ever made. It would be hard to justify me buying one(though I'd love to). Very envious. At the moment I can justify Lie Nielsens, HNT Gordons and Veritas. Not anywhere near the same ball park as Sauer & Steiner but I'll take what I can get.
I'm in outer Sydney, about 10 mins away from the NSW Felder dealer. Nice to meet another fellow Aussie woodworker.
Hamish.
Thanks for your explanations Hamish. I think we agree more than disagree; we are just finding solutions in different ways. For example, if I had excessive tear out on a chopping board, I¡¯d just move on to my wide belt sander. Or if I was feeling particularly atavistic, I¡¯d pull out my Sauer and Steiner smoother and get to work.?
I¡¯m also in Australia (Brisbane) and know exactly what you mean about non-Australian timbers machining like butter. Where are you located? Cheers, Lucky ? Lucky, In the context of having to change or rotate every single individual blade on a helical cutterhead, I would agree with you. In practical use, as a serious hobbyist, or small fine woodworking business, the solid carbide cutters stay sharp many times longer than the standard blades. This means you don't need to change anywhere near as often. If you're a small volume, high quality worker, it could be many years before you need to. ?It also means if you get a nick in a helical carbide blade you can rotate the offending 1-2 blades. With regular knives if you get a nick, you have to change out the whole set.
I would also agree that straight grained purpleheart planes very well with regular knives. The fiddleback stuff gives me nightmares just thinking about it. Helical cutters no prob.
Where the helical cutterhead really shines is things like laminated cutting boards. I usually do several small batches a year. Sometimes, I make the mistake of orienting a laminate, the with the grain of one running in the opposite direction to all the others. You get a nasty surprise when try to flatten it after glue up, with the tear out on that one area, using regular blades. With a helical cutterhead, there is no problem. Straight to finish sanding, no time consuming divetts to sand out.
The machine I have is about 11 years old. I believe Tersa blades might have been an option at the time(???). I had the regular reversible blades, until I changed out the cutterhead last year for a helical. The reversible blades would be slower than Tersa, to change, but I didn't mind so much because I was used to the old style jointers, ancient method of using wrenches, where you tighten one bolt and the knives would move out of alignment somewhere else, and it takes hours to get a decent change.
I'm down here in Australia, where most of our hardwoods make working with oak feel like a softwood, and also have an abrasive high silica content to boot. I really notice the difference, when working with fine Northern hemisphere woods like walnut, cherry,? maple, or oak. They feel like planing butter in comparison.?
Hamish. Very pertinent points Hamish.
But what about David¡¯s rejoinder about the speed issue of changing out blades? Your reference to ¡°a lot less time consuming¡± in change over is simply untrue. Maybe you¡¯re thinking about older machines which do not have indexed straight knives? Even then, I¡¯m not sure you¡¯d be correct. Tell us more!
Many share your opinions, but this matter (straight versus helical) is absolutely not a ¡°no brainer¡±. I¡¯m a fine furniture maker, professional, and I use many exotic timbers, including Purple Heart (although not very often; you lucky bugger!! :-). A new set of Tersa blades (which take two minutes to install) cuts Purple Heart very well indeed. You might agree, that the cutter head diameter (5¡± or larger; versus 4¡± or smaller) plays a very large part in whether there is tear-out. Thoughts?
So, to be clear, I¡¯m comparing your comments with my experience with half a dozen thicknessers, including my current machine which is a Dual 51, 5¡± cutter head with Tersa knife system. I love the Tersa system.
Lucky
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it¡¯s a no brainer. ?It¡¯s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn¡¯t require a torque wrench.?
Dave ? How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide. The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
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Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
Hey Lucky, If I had the space I'd get a wide belt sander too. Very small shop, 1 car garage. Somehow I make it work(well most of the time, but it is pretty crammed).
Sauer and Steiner's have to be about the most beautiful hand planes ever made. It would be hard to justify me buying one(though I'd love to). Very envious. At the moment I can justify Lie Nielsens, HNT Gordons and Veritas. Not anywhere near the same ball park
as Sauer & Steiner but I'll take what I can get.
I'm in outer Sydney, about 10 mins away from the NSW Felder dealer.
Nice to meet another fellow Aussie woodworker.
Hamish.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thanks for your explanations Hamish. I think we agree more than disagree; we are just finding solutions in different ways. For example, if I had excessive tear out on a chopping board, I¡¯d just move on to my wide belt sander. Or if I was feeling
particularly atavistic, I¡¯d pull out my Sauer and Steiner smoother and get to work.?
I¡¯m also in Australia (Brisbane) and know exactly what you mean about non-Australian timbers machining like butter. Where are you located?
Cheers, Lucky
On 13 Jan 2021, at 9:48 am, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
Lucky, In the context of having to change or rotate every single individual blade on a helical cutterhead, I would agree with you.
In practical use, as a serious hobbyist, or small fine woodworking business, the solid carbide cutters stay sharp many times longer than the standard blades. This means you don't need to change anywhere near as often. If you're a small volume, high quality
worker, it could be many years before you need to.
?It also means if you get a nick in a helical carbide blade you can rotate the offending 1-2 blades. With regular knives if you get a nick, you have to change out the whole set.
I would also agree that straight grained purpleheart planes very well with regular knives. The fiddleback stuff gives me nightmares just thinking about it. Helical cutters no prob.
Where the helical cutterhead really shines is things like laminated cutting boards. I usually do several small batches a year. Sometimes, I make the mistake of orienting a laminate, the with the grain of one running in the opposite direction to all the
others. You get a nasty surprise when try to flatten it after glue up, with the tear out on that one area, using regular blades. With a helical cutterhead, there is no problem. Straight to finish sanding, no time consuming divetts to sand out.
The machine I have is about 11 years old. I believe Tersa blades might have been an option at the time(???). I had the regular reversible blades, until I changed out the cutterhead last year for a helical. The reversible blades would be slower than Tersa,
to change, but I didn't mind so much because I was used to the old style jointers, ancient method of using wrenches, where you tighten one bolt and the knives would move out of alignment somewhere else, and it takes hours to get a decent change.
I'm down here in Australia, where most of our hardwoods make working with oak feel like a softwood, and also have an abrasive high silica content to boot. I really notice the difference, when working with fine Northern hemisphere woods like walnut, cherry,?
maple, or oak. They feel like planing butter in comparison.?
Hamish.
Very pertinent points Hamish.
But what about David¡¯s rejoinder about the speed issue of changing out blades? Your reference to ¡°a lot less time consuming¡± in change over is simply untrue. Maybe you¡¯re thinking about older machines which do not have indexed straight knives?
Even then, I¡¯m not sure you¡¯d be correct. Tell us more!
Many share your opinions, but this matter (straight versus helical) is absolutely not a ¡°no brainer¡±. I¡¯m a fine furniture maker, professional, and I use many exotic timbers, including Purple Heart (although not very often; you lucky bugger!!
:-). A new set of Tersa blades (which take two minutes to install) cuts Purple Heart very well indeed. You might agree, that the cutter head diameter (5¡± or larger; versus 4¡± or smaller) plays a very large part in whether there is tear-out. Thoughts?
So, to be clear, I¡¯m comparing your comments with my experience with half a dozen thicknessers, including my current machine which is a Dual 51, 5¡± cutter head with Tersa knife system. I love the Tersa system.
Lucky
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany,
you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback
purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it¡¯s a no brainer. ?It¡¯s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn¡¯t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty
of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades
when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly
less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not
enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
Annu
I¡¯m not convinced that your ¡¯spare¡¯ brake board is necessarily working properly TBH. ?Given all that you have posted, I¡¯d go with Imran¡¯s suggestion to bypass the brake board.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Annu,
Since you have changed the caps I would call felder and ask if you can bypass the brake board. Check your schematic, the info might be there. It is included in my KF700 schematics.
I cannot imagine each circuit to have a unique failure at the same time. So it has to be a single failure common to all, like start/run caps.
I would also check the transformer DC voltage to ensure proper power to the control circuits. Unless you have neutral, the transformer is likely getting 240V on primary. So you can check voltage on both sides of the transformer.
Imran ? [Edited Message Follows]
Hey Imran,? I did change out the CAPS before I went through the various sequences....i already had teh box open so it only took a few minutes. -Annu
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Joe Jensen
imran
Jason Holtz
David Luckensmeyer