Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
Dave:
Good points. Can the Hammer machines even be ordered with Tersa?
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Lucky
On 13 Jan 2021, at 9:05 am, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
You also need to look at the design of the planer when judging what type of blades work best.? Machines that lack chipbreakers and a pressure bar, both near the knives, benefit more with helical heads.? Tersa and straight knives need those more than the shearing cut of the helical or spiral do.? I'm not sure the Hammer planer has the same design as the 700 or better planers so a Tersa on a 900 or Format is a whole different animal than one on a Hammer.? Dave
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it¡¯s a no brainer. ?It¡¯s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn¡¯t require a torque wrench.?
Dave ? How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid carbide. The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
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Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
Very pertinent points Hamish.
But what about David¡¯s rejoinder about the speed issue of changing out blades? Your reference to ¡°a lot less time consuming¡± in change over is simply untrue. Maybe you¡¯re thinking about older machines which do not have indexed straight knives? Even then, I¡¯m not sure you¡¯d be correct. Tell us more!
Many share your opinions, but this matter (straight versus helical) is absolutely not a ¡°no brainer¡±. I¡¯m a fine furniture maker, professional, and I use many exotic timbers, including Purple Heart (although not very often; you lucky bugger!! :-). A new set of Tersa blades (which take two minutes to install) cuts Purple Heart very well indeed. You might agree, that the cutter head diameter (5¡± or larger; versus 4¡± or smaller) plays a very large part in whether there is tear-out. Thoughts?
So, to be clear, I¡¯m comparing your comments with my experience with half a dozen thicknessers, including my current machine which is a Dual 51, 5¡± cutter head with Tersa knife system. I love the Tersa system.
Lucky
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Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend
the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it¡¯s a no brainer. ?It¡¯s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn¡¯t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
You also need to look at the design of the planer when judging what type of blades work best.? Machines that lack chipbreakers and a pressure bar, both near the knives, benefit more with helical heads.? Tersa and straight knives need those more than the shearing
cut of the helical or spiral do.? I'm not sure the Hammer planer has the same design as the 700 or better planers so a Tersa on a 900 or Format is a whole different animal than one on a Hammer.? Dave
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Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend
the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it¡¯s a no brainer. ?It¡¯s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn¡¯t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
On Jan 12, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
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Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
Great feedback from everyone.? How was the experience of getting everything co-planer with the A3-41?? I am hearing some people needed to hire the tech to come in?
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Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
Dave you are correct regarding the type of material you mainly use having an effect on finish quality. Say if you had exclusive access to clear, straight grained softwood, or mahogany, you get a quality better finish from straight knives.
If you are a fine woodworker then even if you are using top quality softwood, you are still going to have to handplane or finish sand for the best surface.?
If you are doing entry level, high volume production work in softwood, and can get good quality wood, I'd go for conventional blades.
If you work with many different woods, hardwoods, highly figured woods, less than perfect grain or knots, regular blades can give you serious tear out. After planing some fiddleback purple heart, for a small tabletop, with regular knives, I needed to spend
the best part of a full week scraping, then sanding the top smooth enough to get a top quality finish.
Not something you want to do when time =money.
Horses for courses, when we're talking about specificity. For many and varied tasks I'd choose a helical cutterhead, for its versatility?
?Hamish.
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Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it¡¯s a no brainer. ?It¡¯s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn¡¯t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
On Jan 12, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
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Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
Annu,
Sounds like your brake board is malfunctioning. If you know how to bypass the brake board, you can confirm this.
Imran
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On Jan 12, 2021, at 5:07 PM, annu.marwaha@... wrote: ? [Edited Message Follows]
Hey All, Now I¡¯m very concerned. ?So I bought a fluke meter and tested my capacitors before I switched out the ones that came in today. ?The capacitance reading is coming to 40.1 on one and 39.9 on the other. ?So I tired to turn on the machine to time how long it took the motor on the planer to trip out. ?My 220 circuit was off and the switch on the machine was in planer mode. ?As soon as I turned on the circuit breaker, the machine started to make a racket and the planer head was rocking back and forth. ?This was without ever touching the power button on the machine. ?I immediately turned off the circuit breaker. ?I went and switch the machine to the table saw and turned on the circuit breaker. ?The machine immediately started humming on the planer motor and you could see that the planer head was engaged but not spinning. ?This also happens when the EStop button is engaged. ?Like I said in my first post, I did have a faint smell burnt electrical components. WTF??? ?The machine is 2 years old. ?I hope felder can resolve this. -Annu
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Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
I love my tersa head. It is so quick (1min) that you can afford to keep a set for dirty, questionable material and another for good stuff or passes after the initial pass.
Imran
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On Jan 12, 2021, at 5:23 PM, David Sabo via groups.io <sabo_dave@...> wrote: ? Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it¡¯s a no brainer. ?It¡¯s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn¡¯t require a torque wrench.?
Dave On Jan 12, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
Hamish - I agree will everything except helical head.?
Too many people say that like it¡¯s a no brainer. ?It¡¯s not. Depending on what your main material is , it might leave a worse finish.?
As fir quickness of setting / changing blades , a Tersa head or similar is 10 to 50 times faster for changeover and doesn¡¯t require a torque wrench.?
Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 12, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Hamish Casimir <hamishcasimir@...> wrote:
?
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
Hey All,
Now I¡¯m very concerned. ?So I bought a fluke meter and tested my capacitors before I switched out the ones that came in today. ?The capacitance reading is coming to 40.1 on one and 39.9 on the other. ?So I tired to turn on the machine to time how long it took the motor on the planer to trip out. ?My 220 circuit was off and the switch on the machine was in planer mode. ?As soon as I turned on the circuit breaker, the machine started to make a racket and the planer head was rocking back and forth. ?This was without ever touching the power button on the machine. ?I immediately turned off the circuit breaker. ?I went and switch the machine to the table saw and turned on the circuit breaker. ?The machine immediately started humming on the planer motor and you could see that the planer head was engaged but not spinning. ?This also happens when the EStop button is engaged. ?Like I said in my first post, I did have a faint smell burnt electrical components. WTF??? ?The machine is 2 years old. ?I hope felder can resolve this.
-Annu
|
Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
How serious of a hobbyist are you? Wanting to invest in a Hammer machine makes me think you are either a very serious hobbyist, small scale professional,? or someone with plenty of money looking for something to spend it on.
If you are serious, yes definitely Hammer, great machine. I would also suggest?that you buy a model with a helical cutterhead. Less fiddly and less time consuming, changing blades when compared with straight, one piece knives.? Longer blade life with solid
carbide.
The newer cutterhead allows you to plane knotty, or seriously figured timber, or long boards that change grain direction several times, without any tear out. This means significantly less time, effort needed for finishing. I mean light years difference. I cannot
emphasise this enough.
If you have the funds I would invest in the 16" model. I have the 12" model. Yes it is rare that I need to plane or thickness a board wider than 12". I do sell my work occasionally,(not enough to be a full time maker), and there are times when I really need
that extra capacity. Having to do a work around, manually increases the labour time unnecessarily, and increases the cost of the job, cuts into your margins.
Hamish
|
Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
Aside from the width discussion you may want to compare the bed lengths. Some US 6" jointers had longer tables than the wide euro ones so if you do long boards that may help in your decision. I went from a 6" to a 16" and quickly found I could flatten old cutting boards and an end table workbench by throwing the entire thing upside down on the jointer. Was it needed, no, but it was a fun day and I didn't need to re-oil a hand plane.?
--
Mike B
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Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
?I, too, am a hobbyist.? I just received my A3-31.? I have never needed to JOINT a board wider than 12 inches, and when I've needed a wider planer, 16" wouldn't have been enough.? I belong to a community shop with a 20" planer and 21" drum sander for those occasions, and am currently looking for a cabinet shop willing to run, or let me run, for a fee wider stock on those very rare occasions when it's required.? ? Failing that, I'll use a router and sled.? That was my thinking on the purchase--I'll let you know in six months whether I'm rethinking that.
I too am a hobbyist woodworker who went through the same decision process. I was going with the A3-31 until a friend asked me why I was downsizing the width of my planer as my Dewalt DW735 did 13¡±. He had a great point and I went with the A3-41 and have not regretted have the extra width.?
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Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
I¡¯d ¡°+1¡± the 16¡± path. I have a Hammer A3-41 and have been very happy with it. I was initially a little skeptical of whether I¡¯d need the 16¡± for jointing, but found myself needing every inch of that for a recent stair project where I was glueing up stair treads, then needed to joint and plane them. The blanks ended up being ~15¡±, it was really nice having the 16¡± to work with.?
In my mind, most shop-based thickness planers start at 15¡± and go up from there. So, my thought was that a 16¡± thickness planer was right in line with most machines, with the benefit of having a extra-large jointer.?
I think that it¡¯s telling how many machines Felder offers in the 410mm/16¡± size (A3-41, AD741, AD941)compared to the larger/smaller offerings. I don¡¯t have sales numbers on how many machines of a given size Felder sells, but I think it¡¯s worth noting how much attention they give it....
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
I too am a hobbyist woodworker who went through the same decision process. I was going with the A3-31 until a friend asked me why I was downsizing the width of my planer as my Dewalt DW735 did 13¡±. He had a great point and I went with the A3-41 and have not regretted have the extra width.?
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Hi Martin, ? It¡¯s all good now. ? I spent today on the planer blades. Initially I tried setting all the depth screws to the same height (1mm out from the carrier) but then found one carrier was 0.2mm thicker than the others, so tried a different setup to measure from the blade pins to the depth screws. ? I set all of these to the same distance then refitted the blades. ? I checked the TCD of the blade to outfeed table in three places on each blade and they were still a bit out (0.25mm variance) so I had to adjust the depth screws here and there with the blades in situ. Only small adjustments. ? After a while at that I got all four blade tips to within 0.05mm across the whole width. ? After that I got the outfeed set just a fraction below the blades. Less than 0.1mm. ? Then I got the infeed set dead level with the outfeed, making sure that the tables don¡¯t move when the clamps go on. ? I set a 1mm cut and it planed perfectly. No chatter, snipe or anything. ? ? My fence doesn¡¯t have anything to lock down at the far end. It¡¯s the junior type without the micrometer type adjustment and despite weighing a ton, the far end of the fence still moves about a bit when set on the jointer as the table is quite long. ? I might see about making something to tie the far end of the fence down. ? ? I am well chuffed with how good the planed finish is. ? Thanks again for all your help! ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin Guiver via groups.io
Sent: 12 January 2021 19:16
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] BF6 Jointer/[planer blade setting #jointerplaner #jpsetup? Did you get my last message, well doesn't matter! How much out is the cutter bar with the out feed table, lets start there and then proceed in an orderly way On Tuesday, 12 January 2021, 18:38:34 GMT, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote: ?Success!
After spending a few days getting the tables co-planar and the planer blades all set to within a few 0.01mm, I planed my first bit of timber today.
The old BF6 cut perfectly! Smooth, square and snipe free.
Thanks for all your help and advice.
|
Re: 12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
Sometimes after glue up, the piece you want to flatten will be wider than 12¡±
Bill B¨¦langer?
I am close to buying a Hammer Planer / Jointer combo.? I am just a hobbyist who is frustrated with the capacity and performance of my old Delta 6" jointer.? I understand that the the 12" A3-31 is more likely to stay true and is easier to adjust when needed.? What are your opinions on that?? I like the idea of 16" capacity going to the A3-41 but don't want headaches with adjustment.? I also am not experienced enough yet to know if I need 16" capacity.? It seems most of my glue up would be 12" or less so I can alternate the grain to keep flat.? I would really love some opinions before I buy.?
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Evening Richard Did you get my last message, well doesn't matter! How much out is the cutter bar with the out feed table, lets start there and then proceed in an orderly way
.Martin.
On Tuesday, 12 January 2021, 18:38:34 GMT, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
On Jan 12, 2021, at 1:25 PM, richard_markham@... via groups.io <richard_markham@...> wrote: ?Success!
After spending a few days getting the tables co-planar and the planer blades all set to within a few 0.01mm, I planed my first bit of timber today.
The old BF6 cut perfectly! Smooth, square and snipe free.
Thanks for all your help and advice.
|
12" or 16" Jointer /Planer
I am close to buying a Hammer Planer / Jointer combo.? I am just a hobbyist who is frustrated with the capacity and performance of my old Delta 6" jointer.? I understand that the the 12" A3-31 is more likely to stay true and is easier to adjust when needed.? What are your opinions on that?? I like the idea of 16" capacity going to the A3-41 but don't want headaches with adjustment.? I also am not experienced enough yet to know if I need 16" capacity.? It seems most of my glue up would be 12" or less so I can alternate the grain to keep flat.? I would really love some opinions before I buy.?
|
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On Jan 12, 2021, at 1:25 PM, richard_markham@... via groups.io <richard_markham@...> wrote: ?Success!
After spending a few days getting the tables co-planar and the planer blades all set to within a few 0.01mm, I planed my first bit of timber today.
The old BF6 cut perfectly! Smooth, square and snipe free.
Thanks for all your help and advice.
|
Success!
After spending a few days getting the tables co-planar and the planer blades all set to within a few 0.01mm, I planed my first bit of timber today.
The old BF6 cut perfectly! Smooth, square and snipe free.
Thanks for all your help and advice.
|
David Luckensmeyer
imran
Jeff
Tom Gensmer
JP Rice
Bill Belanger