Tool is expensive but don’t be seduced by tooling you may not ever need.? I went with a 1 ?” spindle and I’ve purchased a ton of basic profiles on ebay used.? I’ve also purchased Garniga from Rangate for the cabinet sets and some others.? I have used all the Garniga $$$ and probably ?” of the used ones.? But they were all between $30 and $90 each and things like roundovers and coves that I want when I need them.

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of imranindiana via
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 11:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] KF700sp and AD741 used pricing

?

Mike,

?

Did you intend to include a link or pics?

?

Have the machines been in hobby use or commercial?

?

Hard to say without condition and other details. Shaper tooling can easily add $$$.

?

Imran

On Jan 4, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Mike Barrow via <lunatuna23@...> wrote:

?Hoping you guys could help me understand if this used Jointer planer and Saw/Shaper is a good deal at $7,500 for the J/P and $12,500 for the 8.5' KF700SP.? They come in what appears to be excellent condition, extension tables, some shaper tooling and the KF700 has digi-drive and variable motor speed with separate saw motors for main saw blade and scoring blade.

Seems like it might be a little on the high side for 14+ year old equipment, but....

Please let me know what you think.

Thanks!
--
Mike Barrow

A friend has a T60 and if you don’t want all the CNC automation, it too is very well built.? I would say better built than all the Felder saw IMHO. I really like how you move the fence with a crank on the operator side with a DRO on the screen to tell you the setting.

?

T75 loaded is like $70K plus.? T60 was like $22K

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Randy Child via
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 8:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Kappa 400 Below Table Dust Extraction + Kappa 400 Review

?

The Martin T70 or T75 are both TOTAL BEASTS!!?

On Sunday, January 3, 2021, 06:55:52 PM PST, david@... via <david@...> wrote:

?

?

I recommend you put a Martin T70 or T75 in the mix when evaluating an upgrade from the Kappa 400X.

?

David Best

?

?

?

On Jan 3, 2021, at 4:58 PM, Dmitry Ivanovs via <divanov2@...> wrote:

?

I’m happy with my Kappa. It was some issue with dust port. Always big chunks stack . But we came out solution?

Im even planing update to kappa 590 !!

Elegance Custom Cabinetry?

Minneapolis, Minnesota?

?

Regards?

?

Dmitry Ivanovs .

On Jan 3, 2021, at 17:28, JP Rice via <jprphotos@...> wrote:

?

Mark, I hope you are right, was kinda of disappointed to read of the poorer dust collection on the Kappa 400. I have enjoyed very good dust collection on my K500P with Grizzly overhead dust guard. Of course I think the 5hp Oneida Gorilla Pro with Smart Boost cyclone has a lot to do with that.?

Pat

<Video.MOV>

You’re welcome Brett.

I think you’re wise to make the comparisons and consider the “value” of each price bracket and each category of machine. So often Felder is compared to Martin but without references to the price difference. If one does not have the money for a Martin or even a more “full-on” machine, then that’s the end of the discussion. But if one does have the money, then value becomes important. Toyota versus AMG (we have both)! Ha!

Let’s keep talking!

Lucky

On 5 Jan 2021, at 7:54 am, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:

Lucky,?

Thanks for your valuable contribution to this discussion. I had a feeling I was going to get the kind of answers regarding Martin products you had mentioned. I'm also looking to compare offerings from manufacturers just to understand the value proposition since for me it's not a clear path to choose.?

I'm also starting to wonder once these shaper rigs and tooling and accessories get so awesomely expensive that I shouldn't be making the alternative investment in a full-on 4 to 6 head moulder to accomplish some of the same missing efficiencies while adding more capacity to our production capabilities -? but I'm not trying to take a tangent to the original discussion of improved?shaper options.

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 3:41 PM James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote:

Lucky,

Yes, the sliding table I referred to is not the side sliding table for the tenonning on Martin shaper.

James

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:34 PM David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:

Hi Brett:

You mentioned the Profil 45Z (presumably X-motion) under a heading which included: “CNC (or at least programmable)…"

Regarding the Profil 45Z X-motion, here are some details. I’ve had this machine for approximately 5 years. And channelling David Best’s post from yesterday: Sorry Felder.

1. The Profil shaper will not hold calibration, not for the fence, not for the spindle. Period. I have more than a dozen cutters “set up” and “calibrated” in the machine, and another dozen cutters that I use manually and have not bothered to enter. I can calibrate one cutter perfectly, only to find that it is no longer calibrated a few weeks later. In such instances, the cutter is always out, by 0.1mm to 0.3mm. Always. (I have an Aigner Distometer for calibration purposes.)

2. At first various users thought this was a programming or user error. I certainly thought this. There is a “calibration page” in the programming which “no one” knows what to do with. Certainly no one in Australia. I believe John F. and Joe D. took the matter direct to Felder at a trade show in Europe but also did not get to the bottom of it. You’d have to ask them for details.

3. I believe at least one user has done repeated testing (Joe D.) to see if the calibration issue is hardware rather than software. I recall that he found inconsistencies with the hardware (e.g. repeatedly moving the spindle up and down and then measuring for deviations). I think his comments are in the archives.

4. I am a professional woodworker who has only used a shaper for the last 5 years. I admit that I have a lot to learn. But I should also point out in my defence that I use my shaper for complex joinery and not as a glorified router table. So while I don’t have the cred of someone like Ultimate Joe (I bow before you Joe!), I am speaking from first hand experience.

5. At the price I paid, I love the Profil X-motion. The interface is outstanding. But that interface controls what is essentially a manual shaper. If I want to use a previously calibrated cutter, I test the current settings (fence and height), make a test cut, and enter the discrepancy to re-calibrate the cutter. That’s it: a very nice manual shaper.

6. I have recently participated in the installation of a T27 Martin shaper with all the boxes ticked. At more than twice the price of the Profil 45Z X-motion, it had better be good. I was blown away by the machine. To be clear, I don’t know whether it holds calibration any better than the Profil, but … :-)

7. I understand you desire a longer sliding table like the one Joe D. had. I would love that too, precisely for oversized doors. The T27 has a tenoning option which is very large and very robust. I think it is exactly what you want, but it comes at a very significant cost. (I’m not sure what you mean James when you say that Martin do not have a sliding table on their shaper…? I assume you mean across the front of the machine?)

My personal opinion: if you want a CNC or programmable shaper, I’m confident you will be disappointed with the Profil 45Z X-motion.

Warm regards,
Lucky

On 5 Jan 2021, at 2:15 am, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:

All,?

I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?

Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?

With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.

--

Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...

--

Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...

Lucky,

Yes, the sliding table I referred to is not the side sliding table for the tenonning on Martin shaper.

James

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:34 PM David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:

Hi Brett:

You mentioned the Profil 45Z (presumably X-motion) under a heading which included: “CNC (or at least programmable)…"

Regarding the Profil 45Z X-motion, here are some details. I’ve had this machine for approximately 5 years. And channelling David Best’s post from yesterday: Sorry Felder.

1. The Profil shaper will not hold calibration, not for the fence, not for the spindle. Period. I have more than a dozen cutters “set up” and “calibrated” in the machine, and another dozen cutters that I use manually and have not bothered to enter. I can calibrate one cutter perfectly, only to find that it is no longer calibrated a few weeks later. In such instances, the cutter is always out, by 0.1mm to 0.3mm. Always. (I have an Aigner Distometer for calibration purposes.)

2. At first various users thought this was a programming or user error. I certainly thought this. There is a “calibration page” in the programming which “no one” knows what to do with. Certainly no one in Australia. I believe John F. and Joe D. took the matter direct to Felder at a trade show in Europe but also did not get to the bottom of it. You’d have to ask them for details.

3. I believe at least one user has done repeated testing (Joe D.) to see if the calibration issue is hardware rather than software. I recall that he found inconsistencies with the hardware (e.g. repeatedly moving the spindle up and down and then measuring for deviations). I think his comments are in the archives.

4. I am a professional woodworker who has only used a shaper for the last 5 years. I admit that I have a lot to learn. But I should also point out in my defence that I use my shaper for complex joinery and not as a glorified router table. So while I don’t have the cred of someone like Ultimate Joe (I bow before you Joe!), I am speaking from first hand experience.

5. At the price I paid, I love the Profil X-motion. The interface is outstanding. But that interface controls what is essentially a manual shaper. If I want to use a previously calibrated cutter, I test the current settings (fence and height), make a test cut, and enter the discrepancy to re-calibrate the cutter. That’s it: a very nice manual shaper.

6. I have recently participated in the installation of a T27 Martin shaper with all the boxes ticked. At more than twice the price of the Profil 45Z X-motion, it had better be good. I was blown away by the machine. To be clear, I don’t know whether it holds calibration any better than the Profil, but … :-)

7. I understand you desire a longer sliding table like the one Joe D. had. I would love that too, precisely for oversized doors. The T27 has a tenoning option which is very large and very robust. I think it is exactly what you want, but it comes at a very significant cost. (I’m not sure what you mean James when you say that Martin do not have a sliding table on their shaper…? I assume you mean across the front of the machine?)

My personal opinion: if you want a CNC or programmable shaper, I’m confident you will be disappointed with the Profil 45Z X-motion.

Warm regards,
Lucky

On 5 Jan 2021, at 2:15 am, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:

All,?

I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?

Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?

With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.

--

Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...

Hi Brett:

You mentioned the Profil 45Z (presumably X-motion) under a heading which included: “CNC (or at least programmable)…"

Regarding the Profil 45Z X-motion, here are some details. I’ve had this machine for approximately 5 years. And channelling David Best’s post from yesterday: Sorry Felder.

1. The Profil shaper will not hold calibration, not for the fence, not for the spindle. Period. I have more than a dozen cutters “set up” and “calibrated” in the machine, and another dozen cutters that I use manually and have not bothered to enter. I can calibrate one cutter perfectly, only to find that it is no longer calibrated a few weeks later. In such instances, the cutter is always out, by 0.1mm to 0.3mm. Always. (I have an Aigner Distometer for calibration purposes.)

2. At first various users thought this was a programming or user error. I certainly thought this. There is a “calibration page” in the programming which “no one” knows what to do with. Certainly no one in Australia. I believe John F. and Joe D. took the matter direct to Felder at a trade show in Europe but also did not get to the bottom of it. You’d have to ask them for details.

3. I believe at least one user has done repeated testing (Joe D.) to see if the calibration issue is hardware rather than software. I recall that he found inconsistencies with the hardware (e.g. repeatedly moving the spindle up and down and then measuring for deviations). I think his comments are in the archives.

4. I am a professional woodworker who has only used a shaper for the last 5 years. I admit that I have a lot to learn. But I should also point out in my defence that I use my shaper for complex joinery and not as a glorified router table. So while I don’t have the cred of someone like Ultimate Joe (I bow before you Joe!), I am speaking from first hand experience.

5. At the price I paid, I love the Profil X-motion. The interface is outstanding. But that interface controls what is essentially a manual shaper. If I want to use a previously calibrated cutter, I test the current settings (fence and height), make a test cut, and enter the discrepancy to re-calibrate the cutter. That’s it: a very nice manual shaper.

6. I have recently participated in the installation of a T27 Martin shaper with all the boxes ticked. At more than twice the price of the Profil 45Z X-motion, it had better be good. I was blown away by the machine. To be clear, I don’t know whether it holds calibration any better than the Profil, but … :-)

7. I understand you desire a longer sliding table like the one Joe D. had. I would love that too, precisely for oversized doors. The T27 has a tenoning option which is very large and very robust. I think it is exactly what you want, but it comes at a very significant cost. (I’m not sure what you mean James when you say that Martin do not have a sliding table on their shaper…? I assume you mean across the front of the machine?)

My personal opinion: if you want a CNC or programmable shaper, I’m confident you will be disappointed with the Profil 45Z X-motion.

Warm regards,
Lucky

On 5 Jan 2021, at 2:15 am, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:

All,?

I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?

Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?

With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.

--

Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...

James,?

Thanks for the feedback - I suppose a better way to say it is: If I get one, I'd rather have as much support as possible to handle such items as large oversize doors. The machines with small sliding tables I've seen have?not had the support capabilities.

Love the video, that's Joe Calhoon's shop, right?? I love the slide-out support extension on that machine but definitely don't have the expertise or opinions on these higher-echelon shapers and welcome it!

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:40 AM James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote:

Why do you want a large sliding table for the oversized door?? Martin makes the best sliding table, and they do not put it on their shaper, this tells you something.

Check the following youtube video.

Also, the flagship Format 4 profil 92 emotion from Felder does not have the sliding table either.

James

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:15 AM Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:

All,?

I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?

Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?

With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.

--

Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...

--

Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...

Why do you want a large sliding table for the oversized door?? Martin makes the best sliding table, and they do not put it on their shaper, this tells you something.

Check the following youtube video.

Also, the flagship Format 4 profil 92 emotion from Felder does not have the sliding table either.

James

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:15 AM Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:

All,?

I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?

Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?

With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.

--

Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...

That was about original cost when they were new if they are 14 years old. Prices seem high to me, but then without seeing them and what comes with, we are all guessing...

Brian Lamb
blamb11@...





> On Jan 4, 2021, at 12:15 PM, David Sabo via <sabo_dave=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> 1/2 of new cost and available TODAY doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.
>
> But whether they are worth that, or would I pay that, or can you find better for less in a month are all hypotheticals that are practically unknowable.
>
> Dave
>
> Sent from my iEye
>
>
>
>
>

Hi All,

I am going to look at the machines right now and will post photos. However, my understanding is that they were used primarily by a hobbyist.

Mike Barrow


--
Mike Barrow