Re: CNC (or at lest programmable) shaper setup adivce?
Lucky,?
Thanks for your valuable contribution to this discussion. I had a feeling I was going to get the kind of answers regarding Martin products you had mentioned. I'm also looking to compare offerings from manufacturers just to understand the value proposition since for me it's not a clear path to choose.?
I'm also starting to wonder once these shaper rigs and tooling and accessories get so awesomely expensive that I shouldn't be making the alternative investment in a full-on 4 to 6 head moulder to accomplish some of the same missing efficiencies while adding more capacity to our production capabilities -? but I'm not trying to take a tangent to the original discussion of improved?shaper options.
Lucky,
Yes, the sliding table I referred to is not the side sliding table for the tenonning on Martin shaper.
James
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:34 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Hi Brett:
You mentioned the Profil 45Z (presumably X-motion) under a heading which included: ¡°CNC (or at least programmable)¡"
Regarding the Profil 45Z X-motion, here are some details. I¡¯ve had this machine for approximately 5 years. And channelling David Best¡¯s post from yesterday: Sorry Felder.
1. The Profil shaper will not hold calibration, not for the fence, not for the spindle. Period. I have more than a dozen cutters ¡°set up¡± and ¡°calibrated¡± in the machine, and another dozen cutters that I use manually and have not bothered to enter. I can calibrate one cutter perfectly, only to find that it is no longer calibrated a few weeks later. In such instances, the cutter is always out, by 0.1mm to 0.3mm. Always. (I have an Aigner Distometer for calibration purposes.)
2. At first various users thought this was a programming or user error. I certainly thought this. There is a ¡°calibration page¡± in the programming which ¡°no one¡± knows what to do with. Certainly no one in Australia. I believe John F. and Joe D. took the matter direct to Felder at a trade show in Europe but also did not get to the bottom of it. You¡¯d have to ask them for details.
3. I believe at least one user has done repeated testing (Joe D.) to see if the calibration issue is hardware rather than software. I recall that he found inconsistencies with the hardware (e.g. repeatedly moving the spindle up and down and then measuring for deviations). I think his comments are in the archives.
4. I am a professional woodworker who has only used a shaper for the last 5 years. I admit that I have a lot to learn. But I should also point out in my defence that I use my shaper for complex joinery and not as a glorified router table. So while I don¡¯t have the cred of someone like Ultimate Joe (I bow before you Joe!), I am speaking from first hand experience.
5. At the price I paid, I love the Profil X-motion. The interface is outstanding. But that interface controls what is essentially a manual shaper. If I want to use a previously calibrated cutter, I test the current settings (fence and height), make a test cut, and enter the discrepancy to re-calibrate the cutter. That¡¯s it: a very nice manual shaper.
6. I have recently participated in the installation of a T27 Martin shaper with all the boxes ticked. At more than twice the price of the Profil 45Z X-motion, it had better be good. I was blown away by the machine. To be clear, I don¡¯t know whether it holds calibration any better than the Profil, but ¡ :-)
7. I understand you desire a longer sliding table like the one Joe D. had. I would love that too, precisely for oversized doors. The T27 has a tenoning option which is very large and very robust. I think it is exactly what you want, but it comes at a very significant cost. (I¡¯m not sure what you mean James when you say that Martin do not have a sliding table on their shaper¡? I assume you mean across the front of the machine?)
My personal opinion: if you want a CNC or programmable shaper, I¡¯m confident you will be disappointed with the Profil 45Z X-motion.
Warm regards,
Lucky
All,?
I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?
Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?
With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Re: CNC (or at lest programmable) shaper setup adivce?
Lucky,
Yes, the sliding table I referred to is not the side sliding table for the tenonning on Martin shaper.
James
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:34 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Hi Brett:
You mentioned the Profil 45Z (presumably X-motion) under a heading which included: ¡°CNC (or at least programmable)¡"
Regarding the Profil 45Z X-motion, here are some details. I¡¯ve had this machine for approximately 5 years. And channelling David Best¡¯s post from yesterday: Sorry Felder.
1. The Profil shaper will not hold calibration, not for the fence, not for the spindle. Period. I have more than a dozen cutters ¡°set up¡± and ¡°calibrated¡± in the machine, and another dozen cutters that I use manually and have not bothered to enter. I can calibrate one cutter perfectly, only to find that it is no longer calibrated a few weeks later. In such instances, the cutter is always out, by 0.1mm to 0.3mm. Always. (I have an Aigner Distometer for calibration purposes.)
2. At first various users thought this was a programming or user error. I certainly thought this. There is a ¡°calibration page¡± in the programming which ¡°no one¡± knows what to do with. Certainly no one in Australia. I believe John F. and Joe D. took the matter direct to Felder at a trade show in Europe but also did not get to the bottom of it. You¡¯d have to ask them for details.
3. I believe at least one user has done repeated testing (Joe D.) to see if the calibration issue is hardware rather than software. I recall that he found inconsistencies with the hardware (e.g. repeatedly moving the spindle up and down and then measuring for deviations). I think his comments are in the archives.
4. I am a professional woodworker who has only used a shaper for the last 5 years. I admit that I have a lot to learn. But I should also point out in my defence that I use my shaper for complex joinery and not as a glorified router table. So while I don¡¯t have the cred of someone like Ultimate Joe (I bow before you Joe!), I am speaking from first hand experience.
5. At the price I paid, I love the Profil X-motion. The interface is outstanding. But that interface controls what is essentially a manual shaper. If I want to use a previously calibrated cutter, I test the current settings (fence and height), make a test cut, and enter the discrepancy to re-calibrate the cutter. That¡¯s it: a very nice manual shaper.
6. I have recently participated in the installation of a T27 Martin shaper with all the boxes ticked. At more than twice the price of the Profil 45Z X-motion, it had better be good. I was blown away by the machine. To be clear, I don¡¯t know whether it holds calibration any better than the Profil, but ¡ :-)
7. I understand you desire a longer sliding table like the one Joe D. had. I would love that too, precisely for oversized doors. The T27 has a tenoning option which is very large and very robust. I think it is exactly what you want, but it comes at a very significant cost. (I¡¯m not sure what you mean James when you say that Martin do not have a sliding table on their shaper¡? I assume you mean across the front of the machine?)
My personal opinion: if you want a CNC or programmable shaper, I¡¯m confident you will be disappointed with the Profil 45Z X-motion.
Warm regards,
Lucky
All,?
I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?
Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?
With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Re: CNC (or at lest programmable) shaper setup adivce?
Hi Brett:
You mentioned the Profil 45Z (presumably X-motion) under a heading which included: ¡°CNC (or at least programmable)¡"
Regarding the Profil 45Z X-motion, here are some details. I¡¯ve had this machine for approximately 5 years. And channelling David Best¡¯s post from yesterday: Sorry Felder.
1. The Profil shaper will not hold calibration, not for the fence, not for the spindle. Period. I have more than a dozen cutters ¡°set up¡± and ¡°calibrated¡± in the machine, and another dozen cutters that I use manually and have not bothered to enter. I can calibrate one cutter perfectly, only to find that it is no longer calibrated a few weeks later. In such instances, the cutter is always out, by 0.1mm to 0.3mm. Always. (I have an Aigner Distometer for calibration purposes.)
2. At first various users thought this was a programming or user error. I certainly thought this. There is a ¡°calibration page¡± in the programming which ¡°no one¡± knows what to do with. Certainly no one in Australia. I believe John F. and Joe D. took the matter direct to Felder at a trade show in Europe but also did not get to the bottom of it. You¡¯d have to ask them for details.
3. I believe at least one user has done repeated testing (Joe D.) to see if the calibration issue is hardware rather than software. I recall that he found inconsistencies with the hardware (e.g. repeatedly moving the spindle up and down and then measuring for deviations). I think his comments are in the archives.
4. I am a professional woodworker who has only used a shaper for the last 5 years. I admit that I have a lot to learn. But I should also point out in my defence that I use my shaper for complex joinery and not as a glorified router table. So while I don¡¯t have the cred of someone like Ultimate Joe (I bow before you Joe!), I am speaking from first hand experience.
5. At the price I paid, I love the Profil X-motion. The interface is outstanding. But that interface controls what is essentially a manual shaper. If I want to use a previously calibrated cutter, I test the current settings (fence and height), make a test cut, and enter the discrepancy to re-calibrate the cutter. That¡¯s it: a very nice manual shaper.
6. I have recently participated in the installation of a T27 Martin shaper with all the boxes ticked. At more than twice the price of the Profil 45Z X-motion, it had better be good. I was blown away by the machine. To be clear, I don¡¯t know whether it holds calibration any better than the Profil, but ¡ :-)
7. I understand you desire a longer sliding table like the one Joe D. had. I would love that too, precisely for oversized doors. The T27 has a tenoning option which is very large and very robust. I think it is exactly what you want, but it comes at a very significant cost. (I¡¯m not sure what you mean James when you say that Martin do not have a sliding table on their shaper¡? I assume you mean across the front of the machine?)
My personal opinion: if you want a CNC or programmable shaper, I¡¯m confident you will be disappointed with the Profil 45Z X-motion.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
All,?
I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?
Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?
With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Re: CNC (or at lest programmable) shaper setup adivce?
Brett,
Yes, that is Joe Calhoon's shop. You can find Joe in lots of youtube videos from Range youtube channel?
James
James,?
Thanks for the feedback - I suppose a better way to say it is: If I get one, I'd rather have as much support as possible to handle such items as large oversize doors. The machines with small sliding tables I've seen have?not had the support capabilities.
Love the video, that's Joe Calhoon's shop, right?? I love the slide-out support extension on that machine but definitely don't have the expertise or opinions on these higher-echelon shapers and welcome it!
Why do you want a large sliding table for the oversized door?? Martin makes the best sliding table, and they do not put it on their shaper, this tells you something.
Check the following youtube video.
Also, the flagship Format 4 profil 92 emotion from Felder does not have the sliding table either.
James
All,?
I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?
Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?
With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
--
Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Re: CNC (or at lest programmable) shaper setup adivce?
James,?
Thanks for the feedback - I suppose a better way to say it is: If I get one, I'd rather have as much support as possible to handle such items as large oversize doors. The machines with small sliding tables I've seen have?not had the support capabilities.
Love the video, that's Joe Calhoon's shop, right?? I love the slide-out support extension on that machine but definitely don't have the expertise or opinions on these higher-echelon shapers and welcome it!
Why do you want a large sliding table for the oversized door?? Martin makes the best sliding table, and they do not put it on their shaper, this tells you something.
Check the following youtube video.
Also, the flagship Format 4 profil 92 emotion from Felder does not have the sliding table either.
James
All,?
I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?
Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?
With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
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On Jan 4, 2021, at 2:25 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
I agree.? don't? know what is included but a full combo that is 14 years old would be in the price range of the saw shaper, 12K.? Dave
Its been a weird year, but those numbers seem like crazy town to me. That is great that they are so close you can go see them and shipping won't add to the cost.
Patrick
Hi All,
I am going to look at the machines right now and will post photos. However, my understanding is that they were used primarily by a hobbyist.
Mike Barrow
--
Mike Barrow
|
Re: Cetol Door & Window now PPG Proluxe
Thanks Jason. Strangely, PPG 800 # is not working.
First coat has been absorbed completely by the early wood, so I was leaning towards sanding after the 2nd coat.
Imran
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On Jan 4, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Jason Holtz <jholtzy@...> wrote: ? I generally get a couple coats on, scuff lightly with 320 before my final coats. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
US $7,500 for 14 years AD741 is crazy.? ?
I paid CAD$ 11000 (US$ 8611) plus tax for my AD741 with power drive in 2016. I think the current exchange rate is about the same as in 2016.
James
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 2:43 PM Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: That was about original cost when they were new if they are 14 years old. Prices seem high to me, but then without seeing them and what comes with, we are all guessing...
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
> On Jan 4, 2021, at 12:15 PM, David Sabo via <sabo_dave=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> 1/2 of new cost and available TODAY doesn¡¯t seem unreasonable to me.
>
> But whether they are worth that, or would I pay that, or can you find better for less in a month are all hypotheticals that are practically unknowable.
>
> Dave
>
> Sent from my iEye
>
>
>
>
>
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
That was about original cost when they were new if they are 14 years old. Prices seem high to me, but then without seeing them and what comes with, we are all guessing...
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
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On Jan 4, 2021, at 12:15 PM, David Sabo via groups.io <sabo_dave@...> wrote:
1/2 of new cost and available TODAY doesn¡¯t seem unreasonable to me.
But whether they are worth that, or would I pay that, or can you find better for less in a month are all hypotheticals that are practically unknowable.
Dave
Sent from my iEye
|
Re: Cetol Door & Window now PPG Proluxe
I generally get a couple coats on, scuff lightly with 320 before my final coats. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
I agree.? don't? know what is included but a full combo that is 14 years old would be in the price range of the saw shaper, 12K.? Dave
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Its been a weird year, but those numbers seem like crazy town to me. That is great that they are so close you can go see them and shipping won't add to the cost.
Patrick
Hi All,
I am going to look at the machines right now and will post photos. However, my understanding is that they were used primarily by a hobbyist.
Mike Barrow
--
Mike Barrow
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
1/2 of new cost and available TODAY doesn¡¯t seem unreasonable to me.
But whether they are worth that, or would I pay that, or can you find better for less in a month are all hypotheticals that are practically unknowable.
Dave
Sent from my iEye
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Its been a weird year, but those numbers seem like crazy town to me. That is great that they are so close you can go see them and shipping won't add to the cost.
Patrick
Hi All,
I am going to look at the machines right now and will post photos. However, my understanding is that they were used primarily by a hobbyist.
Mike Barrow
--
Mike Barrow
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Hi All,
I am going to look at the machines right now and will post photos. However, my understanding is that they were used primarily by a hobbyist.
Mike Barrow
--
Mike Barrow
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Mike,
Did you intend to include a link or pics?
Have the machines been in hobby use or commercial?
Hard to say without condition and other details. Shaper tooling can easily add $$$.
Imran
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On Jan 4, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Mike Barrow via groups.io <lunatuna23@...> wrote: ?Hoping you guys could help me understand if this used Jointer planer and Saw/Shaper is a good deal at $7,500 for the J/P and $12,500 for the 8.5' KF700SP. ?They come in what appears to be excellent condition, extension tables, some shaper tooling and the KF700 has digi-drive and variable motor speed with separate saw motors for main saw blade and scoring blade.
Seems like it might be a little on the high side for 14+ year old equipment, but....
Please let me know what you think.
Thanks!
--
Mike Barrow
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
My new KF700SP with a 10' slider cost somewhere in the $23,000 range, withe the following basic specs:
-- 7.5hp 3 phase package
-- Separate scoring motor
-- 3200mm slider
-- 1250mm rip with micro adjust?
-- All-mechanical adjustments (no power/digi-drive)
-- 1500 outrigger
-- Regular outrigger fence
-- Smaller miter fence
-- Parallel guide for X-Roll fence
-- Aigner fences for shaper
-- 1-1/4" and high speed router spindles
Ordered mid-2020, expecting delivery sometime in January. Hope this helps!?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
What do the current models cost ?
D
Sent from my iEye
|
KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Hoping you guys could help me understand if this used Jointer planer and Saw/Shaper is a good deal at $7,500 for the J/P and $12,500 for the 8.5' KF700SP. ?They come in what appears to be excellent condition, extension tables, some shaper tooling and the KF700 has digi-drive and variable motor speed with separate saw motors for main saw blade and scoring blade.
Seems like it might be a little on the high side for 14+ year old equipment, but....
Please let me know what you think.
Thanks!
--
Mike Barrow
|
Re: CNC (or at lest programmable) shaper setup adivce?
Why do you want a large sliding table for the oversized door?? Martin makes the best sliding table, and they do not put it on their shaper, this tells you something.
Check the following youtube video.
Also, the flagship Format 4 profil 92 emotion from Felder does not have the sliding table either.
James
All,?
I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?
Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?
With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Re: Cetol Door & Window now PPG Proluxe
There is no mention of sanding between coats in the application instructions. Any recommendations? I am applying it to western red cedar.
Imran
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On Jan 3, 2021, at 2:29 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote: ? I am applying it in shop . First time used the niosh ov/sd/hc/cl filters on my mask. These are ~15 yrs old. Did not smell a thing until i took them off before leaving the shop, so I guess they work. I could smell my jacket once in the house, so put that in the garage. Shop is at 60 due to this job, hopefully, I can apply 2nd coat tonight or tomorrow.
I will prepare more parts. Had I known it will go so quick, I would have prepared everything.
Imran
Imran
On Jan 3, 2021, at 2:06 PM, Shawn Kammerer via groups.io <shawnkammerer@...> wrote:
?
It¡¯s great stuff. The first coat dries in a reasonable amount of time, depending on your weather conditions, but subsequent coats take forever to dry if you do full coats in cold temperatures, so plan accordingly. I¡¯ve wiped it on in thin coats before, if it¡¯s cold. If you do, it takes a lot more coats, but you have less bugs doing belly flops in it at least. A nice heavy coat that stays wet for a day?is really inviting for anything that happens to fly by.? -Shawn On Sunday, January 3, 2021, 10:55 AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote: I have no great experience in finishing but I have to say that I have not used anything that is so easy and quick to apply. Off course I have only applied the first coat and 3 coats are required but I am very happy so far.
Imran
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David Luckensmeyer
imran
Jason Holtz
Tom Gensmer