Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
Maybe it’s time to have a Futures ETF that tracks the Survival Guide resale value. ?
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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Mark,
You can get the hard copy at just $100 now, a new listing, no bid yet.
<Capture.JPG>
James Do you think the high bidder would suddenly realize David would sell a digital copy for I think he mentioned at one point $50? (Now $500 ?)... ? The price jumped to $1,925 two minutes before the end. I seriously doubt that the buyer would pay unless he/she has a special purpose before the end of 2020.
<Capture.JPG>
James Non payment has repercussions, though only to established members.?
You could always 2nd chance offer it to the next highest bidder.?
D ? Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: VIP Program from Felder
Chris...unless I am missing it somewhere, I don't see an option for anything but ship to an address and it says it ships in one to two business days. If there was an option to pick it up in Dallas and not pay freight, I would probably just suck it up and do that. When I ordered all of the equipment that I bought last year, they held it in Dallas for a little more than a month until I could get up there to pick it up. I understand that nothing will happen until next Monday (presumably) but worried it could be a roll of the dice that I would be out $500 shipping. I just wish I hadn't waited until the very last day to discover the shipping issue.
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Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
I have a 2004 CF731 combination machine and have made a router insert that I can drop into the shaper table hole when I need an actual router. It works well and fits my Porter Cable 891 2.25HP router.?
Jarrett
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 5:33 PM Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote: It does help Lucky. I bought the router table for my new shop because?I always had one. I bought the shaper on recommendation from my salesman?but he told me NOT to bother buying the router spindle, that it was quicker and easier to use a router table, but I got the spindle anyway. I'm just setting up and my?first opotunity?was to use the shaper for something too big for the router table, and watching this?thread (which it looks like I hijacked, oops, just realized and I apologize) looks like I might be able to use the F700Z all the time. I'd much rather do that, since I've always had issues with the router table with chatter etc. So I think my best bet is to force myself to use the shaper exclusively for 6 months?or so and see how it goes. Thanks again for your response.
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:24 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Bill,? I’ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?
I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?
Of course, what you’re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I’d disregard my comments above.?
You’ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.? On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
? Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill Bélanger
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
<image001.png>
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
<image002.jpg>
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Re: Dealing with woodworking machine companies - Harvey
Just a thought with UPS ?any package that has an insured value of $1000.00 is not put on conveyors and is treated special and ups people Carry ?it on to the trucks. So I pay the extra for say a package that’s 900.00 I insure for 1000.0 to get the extra protection well worth it . I hand deliver all my packages to the terminal and ups signs for them high value. They are not going to risk damaging the package. It might be all bull but it defiantly works for me , I also am serious about my packages I design them good and it pays off. Mac,,, Designing and building for 50 years
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On Dec 30, 2020, at 6:20 PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote:
? I guess Felder manual was written for a 3 phase machine in Europe.
The max current draw is different between a single phase and 3 phase motor. For example, 28 amp for 5hp (230v) single motor, 15.2 amp for 5hp (230v) three phase motor.? ?
James On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 6:55 PM TJ Cornish < tj@...> wrote:
I don’t understand some products’ strange electrical factors. Prior to my Felder, I had a 5HP SawStop which ran at about 19 amps, which clearly requires #10 wire and a 30A breaker, however the cord inlet was not large enough to accept 10-3
SOOW cord. Another example - I just bought a plug-in hybrid vehicle. The most popular level 2 charger on the market is rated for 50 amps of charging current, but the lugs can only accept up to #6 wire.
?
What’s doubly amazing is how these products somehow get UL listed when they don’t meet NEC code.
?
I think the CF531 I just received had the same “maximum 20A OCPD” note in the install documentation, so your little war didn’t hurt enough to fix their stupid documentation.
I had a little war with Felder.? The documentation? for my RL160 said maximum 20 amps.? so that's what my guy installed (scratching his head).
Then the thing did nothing but blow the circuit
I must have spent? ten hours on the phone with their pro league Ex used car salesman? Gaslighhter? telling me how it is all my fault.
So I told them they were coming to NJ? to defend? a suit that I would file in NJ and not in Delaware deliberately,? so as to provide me the opportunity to ask the court to reform their contract and strike their venue selection clause along with my demand
for m payment of the electricians bill for the rewiring job.? If I got one state to strike that clause that'd open them to suite in all states.
A couple weeks later I got a check. .
?
On 12/30/20 4:53 PM, Robert Johnson wrote:
With all the recent angst with Felder customer support, I wanted to report on my initial experience with Harvey.
As many of you know Jack Xo makes the Gyro dust collector and basic woodworking machines and bought out Bridge City Tools.
I suggested to my wife that a Shark S-12s Universal Overhead Guard would be great for Christmas.? This was back around Thanksgiving.? It arrive quickly by UPS, however its double wall hex-cell cored cardboard box had been totally shredded and basically held
together just with miles of packaging tape.? I never saw a UPS driver take off so fast after he dropped the 100# load at my front door.
I tell you all this to report their customer support has been very good.? After requesting photos of the packaging, they asked if I needed a replacement of any or all components.? All the parts look very rugged and apparently survived. Nothing was broken, scratched
or dented.? I have yet to assemble it on my Felder year 2004 K700S, as I was asked by Nancy to wait for Christmas.? I've received several follow up messages since from Nathan Anderson, asking if I am making progress on the installation and giving me assurance
they were there to help.? Currently the price is $850 and I think is a good price.? I'll let you all know after I get it installed and the saw running.
|
Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
It does help Lucky. I bought the router table for my new shop because?I always had one. I bought the shaper on recommendation from my salesman?but he told me NOT to bother buying the router spindle, that it was quicker and easier to use a router table, but I got the spindle anyway. I'm just setting up and my?first opotunity?was to use the shaper for something too big for the router table, and watching this?thread (which it looks like I hijacked, oops, just realized and I apologize) looks like I might be able to use the F700Z all the time. I'd much rather do that, since I've always had issues with the router table with chatter etc. So I think my best bet is to force myself to use the shaper exclusively for 6 months?or so and see how it goes. Thanks again for your response.
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:24 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Bill,? I’ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?
I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?
Of course, what you’re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I’d disregard my comments above.?
You’ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.? On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
? Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill Bélanger
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
<image001.png>
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
<image002.jpg>
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
Bill,? I’ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?
I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?
Of course, what you’re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I’d disregard my comments above.?
You’ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
? Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill Bélanger
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
<image001.png>
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
<image002.jpg>
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
This $100 seller is using my pictures, and my description. Just sayin...
Bill Bélanger
Mark,
You can get the hard copy at just $100 now, a new listing, no bid yet.
James Do you think the high bidder would suddenly realize David would sell a digital copy for I think he mentioned at one point $50? (Now $500 ?)... ? The price jumped to $1,925 two minutes before the end. I seriously doubt that the buyer would pay unless he/she has a special purpose before the end of 2020.
James Non payment has repercussions, though only to established members.?
You could always 2nd chance offer it to the next highest bidder.?
D ? Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?Just got a ebay msg telling me the 1.25” spindle is reduced to $333. Router spindle is apparently sold.
Imran?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 5:49 PM, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote: ? Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill Bélanger
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
<image001.png>
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
<image002.jpg>
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Re: VIP Program from Felder
Either ship there (college station) or drop it off there. ?I’m going to call felder next week about shipping. ? Thanks,
Chris Perren 512-415-6951
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 3:36 PM, Larry <larry@...> wrote:
?Hey Chris,
Not a bad idea...have to think about it. Are you picking it up in College Station?
Larry
|
Re: VIP Program from Felder
Hi Larry,
I do not blame you. I was at UT austin ‘82-‘84 and drove a few times to houston. IIRC, similar distance and did not like it.
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Larry <larry@...> wrote: ?Hi Imran,
I did a road trip in January last year to pick up my FB 710, RL 160 and AD 941. I took my adult son up there and the intention was to stay at a friend's house that night and pick up the equipment the next day. We were sitting in a restaurant in the area for a late lunch and my son said, "Hey, why don't we pick the stuff up when we finish lunch and head back home." I wasn't crazy about the idea but that is what we ended up doing. I was going to have my son help me drive back (I drove all the way up there) but with everything on my 20' trailer and the RL 160 looking kind of top heavy (was more worried about the sail area) I decided to drive all the way back (~600 mi. r/t) so that if something happened it would be on me, not him.
This is the long way of saying that I could drive to Dallas but just not feeling it right now...still recovering from back surgery, hate the drive to Dallas, and a hundred other excuses...my loss I suppose.
|
Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill Bélanger
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
Mark,
You can get the hard copy at just $100 now, a new listing, no bid yet.
James
Do you think the high bidder would suddenly realize David would sell a digital copy for I think he mentioned at one point $50? (Now $500 ?)... ? The price jumped to $1,925 two minutes before the end. I seriously doubt that the buyer would pay unless he/she has a special purpose before the end of 2020.
James Non payment has repercussions, though only to established members.?
You could always 2nd chance offer it to the next highest bidder.?
D ? Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: VIP Program from Felder
Hey Chris,
Not a bad idea...have to think about it. Are you picking it up in College Station?
Larry
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
Do you think the high bidder would suddenly realize David would sell a digital copy for I think he mentioned at one point $50? (Now $500 ?)...
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 5:31 PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote:
? The price jumped to $1,925 two minutes before the end. I seriously doubt that the buyer would pay unless he/she has a special purpose before the end of 2020.
James Non payment has repercussions, though only to established members.?
You could always 2nd chance offer it to the next highest bidder.?
D ? Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: VIP Program from Felder
Hi Imran,
I did a road trip in January last year to pick up my FB 710, RL 160 and AD 941. I took my adult son up there and the intention was to stay at a friend's house that night and pick up the equipment the next day. We were sitting in a restaurant in the area for a late lunch and my son said, "Hey, why don't we pick the stuff up when we finish lunch and head back home." I wasn't crazy about the idea but that is what we ended up doing. I was going to have my son help me drive back (I drove all the way up there) but with everything on my 20' trailer and the RL 160 looking kind of top heavy (was more worried about the sail area) I decided to drive all the way back (~600 mi. r/t) so that if something happened it would be on me, not him.
This is the long way of saying that I could drive to Dallas but just not feeling it right now...still recovering from back surgery, hate the drive to Dallas, and a hundred other excuses...my loss I suppose.
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
The price jumped to $1,925 two minutes before the end. I seriously doubt that the buyer would pay unless he/she has a special purpose before the end of 2020.
James
Non payment has repercussions, though only to established members.?
You could always 2nd chance offer it to the next highest bidder.?
D ? Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
It is at $1925 with 8 mins to go. I wonder if Felder is bidding for their engineering staff ?
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 4:25 PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote: ? One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: Self Retracting Air & electric Reels?
Prices on Amazon fluctuate?based on many factors especially over the last year. I use a browser plugin that shows the history so at least I have an idea of what is going on. The plugin is from this company -? See 3 months pricing history for reel with 3/8" hose and 12 months history for reel with 1/2" hose I hope this helps. Ariel
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
Non payment has repercussions, though only to established members.?
You could always 2nd chance offer it to the next highest bidder.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 4:56 PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote:
? Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
David P. Best
Larry
Bill Belanger
David Luckensmeyer
imran