Board kick (This is the term used to describe this behavior by the Felder field tech) is when the board "kicks' to one side or the other when going through the thicknessing planer.? In my case when running a board through on the right side of the planer it kicks the back of the board to the left while the opposite is tru on the left... this is odd since if one of the rollers are tensioned too tight on the right side one would expect boards to kick that direction regardless of which side they are fed on.
Here is a poor quality video I shot of the behavior:?
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Sorry for not being clear enough. I am speaking of the thicknessing planer, not the jointer.
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
Mark,
Where I retired from, we had experienced MEs in the office in USA but for some yrs now we have been doing FEAs in our India Design Center. Thermal and vibration are big issue for us as the diesel engine control module is mounted to the engine. Caterpillar and Cummins both have very demanding off-road applications.
It is also my impression that tools are fairly accessible. Once you are past the learning curve, you can literally run analysis very quickly. We would request several scenarios one day and India would have results for us when we came to work the next morning.
Imran? On Feb 21, 2020, at 4:42 PM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:
? Imran, not suggesting it is simple to do ,(not saying that you were implying i said that, i¡¯m just say¡¯in).
At the company I work at 5-7 ME¡¯s with masters and one with a doctorate are on the FEA team, thats all they do. But injection molding machinery, hotrunnners and molds are a bit more complicated than most woodworking equipment, some of our machines are capable of pressing over 1000tons with 3-4sec cycle times and the hotrunners are ultra complex, lots of thermal expansion at many different rates.?
In any case I would be very surprised if a company like felder is not utilizing an FEA program they are very accessible and a regular ol¡¯ ME can do it at least at thumb suck level... Regards, Mark On Feb 20, 2020, at 11:33 PM, imranindiana via Groups.Io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Mark Thomas,
I believe an FEA would answer the question of how stiff the column should be. They have been measuring resonant frequency of complete car chassis for decades so bandsaw is not that difficult.
Should be stiff enough to withstand worst case loading and any oscillation should be high enough so that it does not affect the operation. I am certain it is not simple but should be doable by an experienced ME.
Imran On Feb 21, 2020, at 9:08 AM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?I doubt bandsaw makers do FEA, but who knows.? But FEA is orthogonal to the question I raised, which is how stiff it should be,??
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
Imran, not suggesting it is simple to do ,(not saying that you were implying i said that, i¡¯m just say¡¯in).
At the company I work at 5-7 ME¡¯s with masters and one with a doctorate are on the FEA team, thats all they do. But injection molding machinery, hotrunnners and molds are a bit more complicated than most woodworking equipment, some of our machines are capable of pressing over 1000tons with 3-4sec cycle times and the hotrunners are ultra complex, lots of thermal expansion at many different rates.?
In any case I would be very surprised if a company like felder is not utilizing an FEA program they are very accessible and a regular ol¡¯ ME can do it at least at thumb suck level... Regards, Mark
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On Feb 20, 2020, at 11:33 PM, imranindiana via Groups.Io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Mark Thomas,
I believe an FEA would answer the question of how stiff the column should be. They have been measuring resonant frequency of complete car chassis for decades so bandsaw is not that difficult.
Should be stiff enough to withstand worst case loading and any oscillation should be high enough so that it does not affect the operation. I am certain it is not simple but should be doable by an experienced ME.
Imran On Feb 21, 2020, at 9:08 AM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?I doubt bandsaw makers do FEA, but who knows.? But FEA is orthogonal to the question I raised, which is how stiff it should be,??
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
Bandsaws are simple and there are good ones made in Taiwan.? Many US companies made wonderful large saws,? Northfield still does ( a few anyway ).? The fact there are few manufacturers now leads me to believe there isn't much profit or volume in the business.?
How many ACM 740 get built and sold now, even world wide?? At least there are enough choices for the few of us who want them.? There are also great cast iron saws for less than half of the cost of new steel.? Dave
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I prefer ¡°robust rigidity¡± to all the other terms. ?LOL
David Best - Sent from my iPad
On Feb 20, 2020, at 7:13 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?To be fair, the terms are ambiguous.? You're using "strong" more or less as a synonym for "yield strength", but I think it's more common to use it as a vague and ill-defined term to describe a combination of more specific properties.? On the
other hand, "stiff" does have a more precise meaning in materials and mechanics.?
Thinking more about bandsaws, it occurs to me that perhaps the optimal stiffness is part art, not just bean counting.? Probably too stiff is bad -- you want some flex to absorb shocks, etc.?
As a tangent, my Dad gave me The New Science of Strong Materials when I was about 10.? I still have it decades later and pick it up now and then.? Great book:
New Science of Strong Materials
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
I prefer ¡°robust rigidity¡± to all the other terms. ?LOL David Best - Sent from my iPad
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On Feb 20, 2020, at 7:13 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?To be fair, the terms are ambiguous.? You're using "strong" more or less as a synonym for "yield strength", but I think it's more common to use it as a vague and ill-defined term to describe a combination of more specific properties.? On the other hand, "stiff" does have a more precise meaning in materials and mechanics.?
Thinking more about bandsaws, it occurs to me that perhaps the optimal stiffness is part art, not just bean counting.? Probably too stiff is bad -- you want some flex to absorb shocks, etc.?
As a tangent, my Dad gave me The New Science of Strong Materials when I was about 10.? I still have it decades later and pick it up now and then.? Great book:
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
Mark Thomas,
I believe an FEA would answer the question of how stiff the column should be. They have been measuring resonant frequency of complete car chassis for decades so bandsaw is not that difficult.
Should be stiff enough to withstand worst case loading and any oscillation should be high enough so that it does not affect the operation. I am certain it is not simple but should be doable by an experienced ME.
Imran On Feb 21, 2020, at 9:08 AM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?I doubt bandsaw makers do FEA, but who knows.? But FEA is orthogonal to the question I raised, which is how stiff it should be,??
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
I doubt bandsaw makers do FEA, but who knows.? But FEA is orthogonal to the question I raised, which is how stiff it should be,??
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
Imran, Grizzly has a reputation for building a strong bandsaw depending on which model you buy and they are from Taiwan. Most Laguna bandsaws are from Taiwan. Panhans makes bandsaws and they are out of Germany. I believe Bulgaria built Laguna bandsaws many years ago.
On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 10:39 PM imranindiana via Groups.Io <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: I have been reading this thread and was wondering why only Italians know how to make the bandsaw column properly stiff. In today¡¯s world of analysis one should be able to easily hit a window of desired resonant frequency for the column.
So is it really the generational knowledge of skilled craftsmen or that labor is cheap over there or something else? I would assume material and construction elements are so well defined now that it should not be a part of this equation.
Imran On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:13 AM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?To be fair, the terms are ambiguous.? You're using "strong" more or less as a synonym for "yield strength", but I think it's more common to use it as a vague and ill-defined term to describe a combination of more specific properties.? On the other hand, "stiff" does have a more precise meaning in materials and mechanics.?
Thinking more about bandsaws, it occurs to me that perhaps the optimal stiffness is part art, not just bean counting.? Probably too stiff is bad -- you want some flex to absorb shocks, etc.?
As a tangent, my Dad gave me The New Science of Strong Materials when I was about 10.? I still have it decades later and pick it up now and then.? Great book:
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
Sorry,? Finite Element Analysis, its an add on to a software cad program or standalone program. It¡¯s also pretty straight forward calculate if you have all the knowns.?
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On Feb 20, 2020, at 10:43 PM, Mark Kessler via Groups.Io <mkessler10@...> wrote:
? FEA is surly done so they know within a close margin. Regards, Mark On Feb 20, 2020, at 10:39 PM, imranindiana via Groups.Io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? I have been reading this thread and was wondering why only Italians know how to make the bandsaw column properly stiff. In today¡¯s world of analysis one should be able to easily hit a window of desired resonant frequency for the column.
So is it really the generational knowledge of skilled craftsmen or that labor is cheap over there or something else? I would assume material and construction elements are so well defined now that it should not be a part of this equation.
Imran On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:13 AM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?To be fair, the terms are ambiguous.? You're using "strong" more or less as a synonym for "yield strength", but I think it's more common to use it as a vague and ill-defined term to describe a combination of more specific properties.? On the other hand, "stiff" does have a more precise meaning in materials and mechanics.?
Thinking more about bandsaws, it occurs to me that perhaps the optimal stiffness is part art, not just bean counting.? Probably too stiff is bad -- you want some flex to absorb shocks, etc.?
As a tangent, my Dad gave me The New Science of Strong Materials when I was about 10.? I still have it decades later and pick it up now and then.? Great book:
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
FEA is surly done so they know within a close margin. Regards, Mark
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On Feb 20, 2020, at 10:39 PM, imranindiana via Groups.Io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? I have been reading this thread and was wondering why only Italians know how to make the bandsaw column properly stiff. In today¡¯s world of analysis one should be able to easily hit a window of desired resonant frequency for the column.
So is it really the generational knowledge of skilled craftsmen or that labor is cheap over there or something else? I would assume material and construction elements are so well defined now that it should not be a part of this equation.
Imran On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:13 AM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?To be fair, the terms are ambiguous.? You're using "strong" more or less as a synonym for "yield strength", but I think it's more common to use it as a vague and ill-defined term to describe a combination of more specific properties.? On the other hand, "stiff" does have a more precise meaning in materials and mechanics.?
Thinking more about bandsaws, it occurs to me that perhaps the optimal stiffness is part art, not just bean counting.? Probably too stiff is bad -- you want some flex to absorb shocks, etc.?
As a tangent, my Dad gave me The New Science of Strong Materials when I was about 10.? I still have it decades later and pick it up now and then.? Great book:
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
I have been reading this thread and was wondering why only Italians know how to make the bandsaw column properly stiff. In today¡¯s world of analysis one should be able to easily hit a window of desired resonant frequency for the column.
So is it really the generational knowledge of skilled craftsmen or that labor is cheap over there or something else? I would assume material and construction elements are so well defined now that it should not be a part of this equation.
Imran On Feb 21, 2020, at 8:13 AM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?To be fair, the terms are ambiguous.? You're using "strong" more or less as a synonym for "yield strength", but I think it's more common to use it as a vague and ill-defined term to describe a combination of more specific properties.? On the other hand, "stiff" does have a more precise meaning in materials and mechanics.?
Thinking more about bandsaws, it occurs to me that perhaps the optimal stiffness is part art, not just bean counting.? Probably too stiff is bad -- you want some flex to absorb shocks, etc.?
As a tangent, my Dad gave me The New Science of Strong Materials when I was about 10.? I still have it decades later and pick it up now and then.? Great book:
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Make sure you glide your planner table a lot, my A31 is really sensitive to gliding products on the planer table to avoid "Kick". I also redid all the roller height setup compare to the cutterblock with hellical cutters.
I am still working on it to see if I got consistent result depending on the wood, so cannot say if what I have done is enough.
Looks A31 setup thread earlier that explains the technic for the Jointer part.
Bill
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Re: FB610 bandsaw blade position on the wheels: in the middle or near the edge?
To be fair, the terms are ambiguous.? You're using "strong" more or less as a synonym for "yield strength", but I think it's more common to use it as a vague and ill-defined term to describe a combination of more specific properties.? On the other hand, "stiff" does have a more precise meaning in materials and mechanics.?
Thinking more about bandsaws, it occurs to me that perhaps the optimal stiffness is part art, not just bean counting.? Probably too stiff is bad -- you want some flex to absorb shocks, etc.?
As a tangent, my Dad gave me The New Science of Strong Materials when I was about 10.? I still have it decades later and pick it up now and then.? Great book:
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I have a A3-31, which is the jointer/planer model bolted to a saw to make the C3 combo.? ? Quite a few people here have A3-31 too.? ?I don't know what you mean that the planer is "kicking" boards.? Snipe is not an issue on mine.? I think most folks here who've talked about the A3-31 have been pretty happy with it (given the price point, obviously people who spend 3-5x as much on a Felder or Format are happier)? Perhaps you could be more specific about the problems?
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Hi Will,
Just to be sure, can you confirm that you are speaking of surface planner which most here on FOG will call Jointer. Yes, European terminology makes more sense but that is what we are stuck with here in USA.
Yes occasionally people here have reported frustration with setting up machines. If I was in your position, my first goal would be to determine if the machine is usable and has no manufacturing defect.?
From your description it appears you have the knowledge and experience so hopefully a hammer owner here can help. For starters, can you confirm that you have checked the individual tables for flatness and coplanarity? And how did you check them.
Here are couple of files from files section, that may help, if you have not already reviewed them.
Imran On Feb 21, 2020, at 2:43 AM, Will Smithee via Groups.Io <wasmithee@...> wrote:
?I ordered my C3 31 on 12/29/2019; received it on 1/24/2020.? I've been trying my level best to set it up and have not been able to get the planer to stop kicking and/or sniping boards.? I've worked with tech support and now a field tech has been working with me as well over the phone and email.? I've been using very accurate gauges (0.01 mm) and have sent photos and videos to the Felder staff multiple times over the last few weeks without any success.?
I am at my wits' end with this machine.? I've filled a large dust collector bag already with just the chips from attempting to adjust this planer.? I'm about ready to tell Felder they can take the machine back and I'll go with another brand.? I've setup other machines previously and never had anywhere near this much trouble and never had to spend more than 6 hours adjusting even much less expensive and/or sometimes poorly built machines (Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Dewalt, Steel City, Delta, etc.)
Has anyone else had problems like this or struggled this much to get a new machine to work properly?
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Re: Bandsaws: Felder vs ACM
Gerald don¡¯t get me wrong I am a great fan of Felder and what you outline makes sense in sourcing from a single supplier if you are in the market for multiple machines.
Purchasing ?multiple machines from Felder should give you leverage for a great deal!
I agree a slider on the bandsaw is a great idea - especially for re-sawing.
The 740 is a Beast!
Here in Melbourne Felder are small ?compared to SCM but provide excellent support even for smaller customers like myself a non pro woodworker.
I also own a Hammer A3/41 and very happy with it.
Still deciding on the table saw slider upgrade - but k700 is on the shortlist.
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John,? ?I don¡¯t think I documented the guard build.? I probably put it together over a year or two.? If you can get a hold of the saw guard, the rest of the set up is pretty simple to cobble together.? Here is a front view.
Mac,,,
? Designing and building for 47 years
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On Feb 20, 2020, at 11:13 AM, John Kee <jmkserv@...> wrote:
? Mac I seem to remember you also documented parts of your build process or is that one of my delusional memories. On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 9:48 AM Airtight: Clamps by Air Compression < airtightclamps@...> wrote: Overhead saw guard? It really annoys when overhead saw guard moves so many years back I replaced the ?funky SCMI with my own design. I used the Felder saw hood and inside of the telescopic arm. This slides in and out on humw slide pads with one lever so it can move laterally as my saw moves laterally 6¡± . It also slides quickly out of the way for access and out of way for shaper fence. I can also quickly pull the whole arm out.? The saw guard hood has 4 quick release bolts to take off and put back on. The rest of the affair is based of a 6¡± tube steel post of set for cross cuts. The whole thing bolts together in a few sub assemblies. Pretty much all made from scrap bin. View from behind saw.
Mac,,, ? Designing and building for 47 years On Feb 19, 2020, at 7:50 PM, Alex Bowlds <aabj@...> wrote:
? I will try to remember to post some photos of the older design tomorrow.? I had taken photos showing the droop and sent them to Felder some time ago.? I just no longer have them on my iPad.A.On Feb 19, 2020, at 11:10 AM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:
?Right, will double check tonight but mine definitely does not for at least 5-8¡± of swing. I can set the bottom of the clear polycarbonate to a hair above the top of the blade and can swing it past the blade without the guard touching the blade for example
Regards, Mark
On Feb 19, 2020, at 1:53 PM, Sang Luu <sangluu@...> wrote:
?Alex noted that the drooping occurs when the arm is swung (I assume 90 degrees) out of the way.
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Re: For Sale: Hammer K3 Winner 31x31
Delivery available within a reasonable distance from 06606.?
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Hi Willie,
? ? ? ? ? ? ? When I got my C3 31 the dealer couldn't commission it because the electrical lead was too short and couldn't reach my 16 amp socket!
Na?vely, I thought that didn't really matter as it would be all factory set--- wrong.
The jointer has broken my heart for three years by tapering everything that I fed into it. The answer was in the outfield table which was far too high. It was 25thou above the blades.
The manual doesn't give you all the directions required to adjust it and I snapped the head off the 17mm adjusting bolt on my first attempt, then I discovered two grub screws and a 19mm nut that needed loosened.
After I figured that out, I bought the outfeed table down until it sniped everything and then kept raising it until I dialled out the sniping. Then for the first time I was able to use a little piece of oak to move 2 to 3 millimetres as I turned the blades by hand when the two tables were complained and level.
Ever since it has worked like a charm. I hope this is some help.
Trevor Lusty
Ireland
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imran
David P. Best