?

PEX is becoming more popular. ? You can't use it where you need structural self-supporting lines, like steel pipe on hangers in mid-air, but if you're installing along surfaces, nothing is easier or faster. ?The outside diameter is same as copper, so you can intermix PEX and copper with sharkbite fittings. ?For example, people often use a couple feet of copper at the endpoint for a rigid standoff. ??

For fastest and simplest PEX, I use one of these:

			The M12? cordless lithium-ion ProPEX? expansion tool features an auto-rotating head for convenient one-handed operation. For more information visit ...
				Preview by Yahoo

?

?

Yes, I think the tool probably lasts forever. ?I try to loan mine out, but I don't get a lot of takers. ?This PEX connector system, and several other proprietary variants, don't make sense to most people for just a few connections, because you can't buy the fittings at local big box or hardware stores (at least not in my area). ?It's not really intended for the DIY'er to do a few bits of piping, but rather the professional plumber who does this all day long.

But the fittings are cheap (the cheapest in fact, one of the savings when doing a lot), and you can them online (eg, ) or at professional plumbing supply places.

Copper pipe is totally standardized. ?The stuff at big box stores for residential is the same as what you'd get at a plumbing supply for commercial/industrial. ? Google it and you'll see there's 3 standard types - K, L, and M -- which have slightly different wall thicknesses, which is primarily about mechanical strength, ie, one typically uses thicker wall for in-ground burial, etc. ?But for air in a shop it makes no real difference.

Mark ? ? ?

?

PEX is becoming more popular. ? You can't use it where you need structural self-supporting lines, like steel pipe on hangers in mid-air, but if you're installing along surfaces, nothing is easier or faster. ?The outside diameter is same as copper, so you can intermix PEX and copper with sharkbite fittings. ?For example, people often use a couple feet of copper at the endpoint for a rigid standoff. ??

For fastest and simplest PEX, I use one of these:

			The M12? cordless lithium-ion ProPEX? expansion tool features an auto-rotating head for convenient one-handed operation. For more information visit ...
				Preview by Yahoo

?

?

I can’t say if they have improved the PVC, I doubt it’s changed much. I can’t speak for other’s ressults, can only relay what happened to us and why I wouldn’t do it again. It was cheaper at the time, but mostly because we didn’t have to sit and thread the steel pipe that was commonly used. I get around that by using copper and soldering it, yes, it’s more expensive but it seems to work well and last forever.

Brian Lamb

blamb11@...

On Jan 28, 2017, at 8:04 AM, George george954679@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

Sounds like I need to replace my PVC airlines. I wonder why there hasn't been a bit of problem down at Jim's auto repair shop? It's gets used hard. The fact that his compressors are inside may help some. Also there aren't any automatic oilers.Does oil degrade PVC? ?It was installed around 2005 or 2006. Is the PVC still the same as it was in the early eighties or have they improved it? I know a semi retired trim carpenter who has Schedule 40 running through his shop. It was installed in 2002. Not a bit of problem. Granted it is only under pressure part time. While I did recommend it in my previous post, I also mentioned Roland Johnson's misgivings and made it clear that I was not speaking as an expert. I am not nonchalant about safety of others or myself. It sound like PVC gets brittle over time. Brian, I take your warning seriously and will mention it to my friends.

On Jan 28, 2017, at 9:34 AM, Brian Lamb?blamb11@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

?

We plumbed our machine shop with Schedule 80 1” PVC back in the early 80’s when we built it. Biggest mistake we ever made. The lines from the compressor sitting outside started failing within 6 months, guess the UV made the PVC brittle. So we re-piped with steel pipe from the outside into the building and to the input side of the filter/regulator unit. Then over the next 10 years or so, it continuously failed and blew apart, starting closest to the compressor (we assumed heat in the air might have been the culprit) but gradually got to the point where we had failures throughout the shop.

Exploding PVC pipe or fittings is nothing to be nonchalant about, when they let go, you get a missiles of small plastic pieces headed somewhere. We were just lucky nobody ever got hurt, probably because most of the lines were 16’ overhead and the pieces lost a lot of the force by the time they went down to shop level.

Since then I won’t plumb with anything but copper. It is or at least was at that time, against code to use anything less than schedule 80, and it had to be the gray industrial stuff. We checked at the time and although it was “legal”, I sure wouldn’t do it again.

Brian Lamb

blamb11@...

On Jan 28, 2017, at 7:04 AM, George?george954679@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

A lot of people I know use Schedule 40 or Schedule 80 PVC pipe to plumb their air lines. A friend/neighbor uses Schedule 80 in his automotive repair shop. He installed it over 10 years ago. He has two 60 gallon compressors operating in tandem providing air for ? 3-4 mechanics working simultaneously. They are in there wrenching 8-10 hours a day,5-6 days a week. ?Roland Johnson wrote an article in Fine Woodworking a number of years ago warning against PVC. He thought it could explode if you hit it sharply with something. I guess it's possible, but I have 3/4" Schedule 40 in my shop and feel completely safe with it. Take that last statement for what it's worth. I haven't seen any proof one way or another. I'm no expert. PVC, hung with conduit hangers. Quick, cheap and easy.

On Jan 22, 2017, at 8:13 PM, Brian Lamb?blamb11@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

?

You can use “Sharkbite” fittings on copper lines. The do have the stainless grippers, but you can slide a tool (I usually use an open end wrench the right size) to un-compress the bite portion and slip the pipe and fitting apart. It is important to properly deburr the pipe inside and out so it doesn’t cut the o-rings, but if done right, they don’t leak.?

I have some in household water applications that have been in place for many years now with no leaks, and I used a few in spots in my current shop for the air lines. I tend to solder segments of the airlines together on the ground, then lift them in place and assemble with a sharkbite. Back when I did it, about 7 years ago on this shop, the fittings were still rather pricey, but they have come way down.

Brian Lamb

blamb11@...

On Jan 22, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Luckensmeyer David?dhluckens@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

A warning about that blue aluminium air pipe. There are many brands, but from what I've seen they all work similarly/the same. It's a quick system design, usually with plastic fittings and aluminium pipe. Joints are push fit and thread-tightened together, using rubber o-rings to complete a joint.?

This system is comparatively expensive and does NOT work. I have it, and hate it. No matter what I do, it leaks at the joints. I have been meticulous in preparing and cleaning joints. However, leaks persist. The plastic fitting can only be tightened "so much" which is sometimes not "enough". If the joint has any sideways pressure on it, it leaks. The joint is supposed to be reversible so it can be re-jigged and re-used. Nope! Sure, you can get a given joint apart, but there is a steel serrated washer inside which helps close the o-ring fit around the pipe as it is threaded tight. This serrated washer bites into the aluminium pipe surface. When taken apart, the pipe surface is "raunched" up and rendered useless without cutting off the chewed up end. Otherwise you get leaks. Even the plastic fittings can't be reused. Guaranteed to leak. I've found the fittings I have are single use only.?

This system is supposed to be quick. Which it is. It's supposed to be reusable and reconfigurable. Which it is NOT. It is supposed to be leak proof. Which it is NOT. It is supposed to be good value for money. NOT in my opinion!

Maybe some of you have had a very different experience with the blue stuff?

Warm regards,

David Lucky

On 23 Jan. 2017, at 6:57 am,?andy.giddings@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

?

I recall seeing this guy's install on YouTube - he's based in Belgium so not sure the brand of tube is even available here - does look like a neat and quick install?

?

We plumbed our machine shop with Schedule 80 1” PVC back in the early 80’s when we built it. Biggest mistake we ever made. The lines from the compressor sitting outside started failing within 6 months, guess the UV made the PVC brittle. So we re-piped with steel pipe from the outside into the building and to the input side of the filter/regulator unit. Then over the next 10 years or so, it continuously failed and blew apart, starting closest to the compressor (we assumed heat in the air might have been the culprit) but gradually got to the point where we had failures throughout the shop.

Exploding PVC pipe or fittings is nothing to be nonchalant about, when they let go, you get a missiles of small plastic pieces headed somewhere. We were just lucky nobody ever got hurt, probably because most of the lines were 16’ overhead and the pieces lost a lot of the force by the time they went down to shop level.

Since then I won’t plumb with anything but copper. It is or at least was at that time, against code to use anything less than schedule 80, and it had to be the gray industrial stuff. We checked at the time and although it was “legal”, I sure wouldn’t do it again.

Brian Lamb

blamb11@...

On Jan 28, 2017, at 7:04 AM, George george954679@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

A lot of people I know use Schedule 40 or Schedule 80 PVC pipe to plumb their air lines. A friend/neighbor uses Schedule 80 in his automotive repair shop. He installed it over 10 years ago. He has two 60 gallon compressors operating in tandem providing air for ? 3-4 mechanics working simultaneously. They are in there wrenching 8-10 hours a day,5-6 days a week. ?Roland Johnson wrote an article in Fine Woodworking a number of years ago warning against PVC. He thought it could explode if you hit it sharply with something. I guess it's possible, but I have 3/4" Schedule 40 in my shop and feel completely safe with it. Take that last statement for what it's worth. I haven't seen any proof one way or another. I'm no expert. PVC, hung with conduit hangers. Quick, cheap and easy.

On Jan 22, 2017, at 8:13 PM, Brian Lamb?blamb11@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

?

You can use “Sharkbite” fittings on copper lines. The do have the stainless grippers, but you can slide a tool (I usually use an open end wrench the right size) to un-compress the bite portion and slip the pipe and fitting apart. It is important to properly deburr the pipe inside and out so it doesn’t cut the o-rings, but if done right, they don’t leak.?

I have some in household water applications that have been in place for many years now with no leaks, and I used a few in spots in my current shop for the air lines. I tend to solder segments of the airlines together on the ground, then lift them in place and assemble with a sharkbite. Back when I did it, about 7 years ago on this shop, the fittings were still rather pricey, but they have come way down.

Brian Lamb

blamb11@...

On Jan 22, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Luckensmeyer David?dhluckens@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

A warning about that blue aluminium air pipe. There are many brands, but from what I've seen they all work similarly/the same. It's a quick system design, usually with plastic fittings and aluminium pipe. Joints are push fit and thread-tightened together, using rubber o-rings to complete a joint.?

This system is comparatively expensive and does NOT work. I have it, and hate it. No matter what I do, it leaks at the joints. I have been meticulous in preparing and cleaning joints. However, leaks persist. The plastic fitting can only be tightened "so much" which is sometimes not "enough". If the joint has any sideways pressure on it, it leaks. The joint is supposed to be reversible so it can be re-jigged and re-used. Nope! Sure, you can get a given joint apart, but there is a steel serrated washer inside which helps close the o-ring fit around the pipe as it is threaded tight. This serrated washer bites into the aluminium pipe surface. When taken apart, the pipe surface is "raunched" up and rendered useless without cutting off the chewed up end. Otherwise you get leaks. Even the plastic fittings can't be reused. Guaranteed to leak. I've found the fittings I have are single use only.?

This system is supposed to be quick. Which it is. It's supposed to be reusable and reconfigurable. Which it is NOT. It is supposed to be leak proof. Which it is NOT. It is supposed to be good value for money. NOT in my opinion!

Maybe some of you have had a very different experience with the blue stuff?

Warm regards,

David Lucky

On 23 Jan. 2017, at 6:57 am,?andy.giddings@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

?

I recall seeing this guy's install on YouTube - he's based in Belgium so not sure the brand of tube is even available here - does look like a neat and quick install?

?

A lot of people I know use Schedule 40 or Schedule 80 PVC pipe to plumb their air lines. A friend/neighbor uses Schedule 80 in his automotive repair shop. He installed it over 10 years ago. He has two 60 gallon compressors operating in tandem providing air for ? 3-4 mechanics working simultaneously. They are in there wrenching 8-10 hours a day,5-6 days a week. ?Roland Johnson wrote an article in Fine Woodworking a number of years ago warning against PVC. He thought it could explode if you hit it sharply with something. I guess it's possible, but I have 3/4" Schedule 40 in my shop and feel completely safe with it. Take that last statement for what it's worth. I haven't seen any proof one way or another. I'm no expert. PVC, hung with conduit hangers. Quick, cheap and easy.

On Jan 22, 2017, at 8:13 PM, Brian Lamb blamb11@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

?

You can use “Sharkbite” fittings on copper lines. The do have the stainless grippers, but you can slide a tool (I usually use an open end wrench the right size) to un-compress the bite portion and slip the pipe and fitting apart. It is important to properly deburr the pipe inside and out so it doesn’t cut the o-rings, but if done right, they don’t leak.?

I have some in household water applications that have been in place for many years now with no leaks, and I used a few in spots in my current shop for the air lines. I tend to solder segments of the airlines together on the ground, then lift them in place and assemble with a sharkbite. Back when I did it, about 7 years ago on this shop, the fittings were still rather pricey, but they have come way down.

Brian Lamb

blamb11@...

On Jan 22, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Luckensmeyer David dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

A warning about that blue aluminium air pipe. There are many brands, but from what I've seen they all work similarly/the same. It's a quick system design, usually with plastic fittings and aluminium pipe. Joints are push fit and thread-tightened together, using rubber o-rings to complete a joint.?

This system is comparatively expensive and does NOT work. I have it, and hate it. No matter what I do, it leaks at the joints. I have been meticulous in preparing and cleaning joints. However, leaks persist. The plastic fitting can only be tightened "so much" which is sometimes not "enough". If the joint has any sideways pressure on it, it leaks. The joint is supposed to be reversible so it can be re-jigged and re-used. Nope! Sure, you can get a given joint apart, but there is a steel serrated washer inside which helps close the o-ring fit around the pipe as it is threaded tight. This serrated washer bites into the aluminium pipe surface. When taken apart, the pipe surface is "raunched" up and rendered useless without cutting off the chewed up end. Otherwise you get leaks. Even the plastic fittings can't be reused. Guaranteed to leak. I've found the fittings I have are single use only.?

This system is supposed to be quick. Which it is. It's supposed to be reusable and reconfigurable. Which it is NOT. It is supposed to be leak proof. Which it is NOT. It is supposed to be good value for money. NOT in my opinion!

Maybe some of you have had a very different experience with the blue stuff?

Warm regards,

David Lucky

On 23 Jan. 2017, at 6:57 am,?andy.giddings@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

?

I recall seeing this guy's install on YouTube - he's based in Belgium so not sure the brand of tube is even available here - does look like a neat and quick install?

?

You can use “Sharkbite” fittings on copper lines. The do have the stainless grippers, but you can slide a tool (I usually use an open end wrench the right size) to un-compress the bite portion and slip the pipe and fitting apart. It is important to properly deburr the pipe inside and out so it doesn’t cut the o-rings, but if done right, they don’t leak.?

I have some in household water applications that have been in place for many years now with no leaks, and I used a few in spots in my current shop for the air lines. I tend to solder segments of the airlines together on the ground, then lift them in place and assemble with a sharkbite. Back when I did it, about 7 years ago on this shop, the fittings were still rather pricey, but they have come way down.

Brian Lamb

blamb11@...

On Jan 22, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Luckensmeyer David dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

A warning about that blue aluminium air pipe. There are many brands, but from what I've seen they all work similarly/the same. It's a quick system design, usually with plastic fittings and aluminium pipe. Joints are push fit and thread-tightened together, using rubber o-rings to complete a joint.?

This system is comparatively expensive and does NOT work. I have it, and hate it. No matter what I do, it leaks at the joints. I have been meticulous in preparing and cleaning joints. However, leaks persist. The plastic fitting can only be tightened "so much" which is sometimes not "enough". If the joint has any sideways pressure on it, it leaks. The joint is supposed to be reversible so it can be re-jigged and re-used. Nope! Sure, you can get a given joint apart, but there is a steel serrated washer inside which helps close the o-ring fit around the pipe as it is threaded tight. This serrated washer bites into the aluminium pipe surface. When taken apart, the pipe surface is "raunched" up and rendered useless without cutting off the chewed up end. Otherwise you get leaks. Even the plastic fittings can't be reused. Guaranteed to leak. I've found the fittings I have are single use only.?

This system is supposed to be quick. Which it is. It's supposed to be reusable and reconfigurable. Which it is NOT. It is supposed to be leak proof. Which it is NOT. It is supposed to be good value for money. NOT in my opinion!

Maybe some of you have had a very different experience with the blue stuff?

Warm regards,

David Lucky

On 23 Jan. 2017, at 6:57 am,?andy.giddings@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

?

I recall seeing this guy's install on YouTube - he's based in Belgium so not sure the brand of tube is even available here - does look like a neat and quick install?

On Jan 27, 2017, at 5:07 PM, David Davies myfinishingtouch@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

if you just ordered the new switch how is it that it's up and running?

?

Brian and others -

I got the call-back from Brian at Felder, and he walked me through checking the low-voltage circuits. He very patiently explained how and why we were doing the various checks, and he took time to walk me through the wiring diagram. We were able to locate the red stop button for the shaper as being the culprit. He told me I had gotten a nice long service life out of my switches. I ordered a replacement and spares for the other switches that often go bad. It’s already up and running again, so I’m happy.

I knew the issue would get resolved, eventually, but it’s great that it was resolved so quickly. I appreciate this group, and I really appreciate Brian at Felder. It’s easy to get upset when things go wrong, but I try to focus on learning something new. Felder Delaware deserves kudos for excellent technical support.

Thomas

?

Dave

re you statement below, why would you not have bought your rotary phase converter? does it not do the job?

Regards
Steve
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 22/1/17, David Davies myfinishingtouch@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Air lines
To: "felder-woodworking" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, 22 January, 2017, 20:35

?









And don't be afraid to ask
questions before you jump in to something.? I wish I would
have asked before buying my rotary phase converter...I
probably wouldn't have it now if I had
asked.Dave
On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at
2:32 PM, Brian Lamb blamb11@...
[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:















?









Use copper, run your drops off the top of the line,
make a U to drop back down. Run down hill slope on the main
line, then at the end run a drop off the bottom, put a gate
valve on the bottom and drain any condensation in the lines
daily. A filter/regulator just after the compressor is
enough for what you are doing. Caution on lubricators, as
you may want a line without for spraying, oil in all of your
compressed air isn’t always what you want.


Brian
Lambblamb11@....lambtoolworks.com





On Jan 22, 2017, at 1:08
PM, apbt1976@...
[felder-woodworking] > wrote:

Ok so more
help.
I am reluctant to ask as not to be a pest. On
the other hand such quick simple answers are to be found
here.
I have spent a good amount of time online
reading and watching videos on proper plumbing for compresed
air.
I have become tired of moving my contractors
compressor all over my shop. I suppose i could just run a
flex air line along the floor but im kthe ndamneat freak and
that would just never fly for me. I'm a clean up after
every operation kinda guy. It keeps my brain
organized.
Anyway i was considering the soft air lines
with the quick fits. I have resigned to going 3/4 copper
with 1/2 drops. I'm will only use air for my air clamps
and a brad and pin nailer. Being a neat freak i stick to my
Festool sanders.?
I will put a on off ball valve and flex hose
to my compressor. My run is only 20' long with three
drops. The question is do i need a filter and lubricator at
every drop or can i just put one at the begining of my run
near my actual compressor.
I will not be upgrading my
compressor anytime soon as it is very low on my list of
"must have" priorities. When i do i am apt to go
for the 10 gallon ultra quiet California air unit for my
needs. The tool addict in me wants a two stage compressor
but for my needs i don't want to give up the space or
listen to the darn thing.?
So drops do i need a
filter at each one?
Any other insight is welcomed.
??

























--
Dave
& Marie Davies

318-219-7868

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