Imran,
?
Thanks again for your help here. Felder have provided me with the attached, which may be the correct schematic, but my machine is 2014 and this schematic is from 2019. The chap from
Felder mentioned he thought it might be the brake board. I¡¯m not sure if my B3 has a brake, I can¡¯t say I¡¯ve used a saw that does, and mine (when it does decide to shut off) doesn¡¯t seem to spin down any slower than the other table saws I have owned which
most definitely didn¡¯t have a brake.
?
Anyway, he mentioned this¡
?
I have picked up your ticket with regards to your hammer B3P and looking at the information on the ticket I would suggest the brake board is being temperamental
and needs to be looked at.
?
The brake board is labelled up either 1B1 or 2B1 and is shown on the attached wiring diagram, there is a small led light on this and I would be interested
to see what that light is doing. Stable or flashing.
?
The reason I don¡¯t think this is anything to do with the brake (even if I have one) is that I¡¯d expect there to be an NVR switch/circuit in a machine of this quality, and whilst
I appreciate that once running, if there was a brake then that could possibly impede the shutdown, I¡¯d also expect that removing the power entirely and then plugging it in again would not make the saw start up again.
?
Anyway, I¡¯ve attached the schematic and if I do happen to get another one I¡¯ll pass that on.
?
Cheers,
?
Morgan
?
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of imranindiana via groups.io
Sent: 29 January 2025 17:29
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] B3 won¡¯t switch off
?
Hi Morgan,
I should have also mentioned that if your machine is out of warranty, you can purchase the relay online by using the PN on the relay. The PN should also be in the wiring diagram. There are coupon reasons to consider this. The potential
price delta and the time it might take for you to receive the part.
It is also easy to confirm the stuck contacts once I am able to see the electrical docs. Can be done safely with power removed.
On Jan 29, 2025, at 11:52?AM, Morgan Skinner via groups.io <morgan@...> wrote:
?
Thanks Imran - I¡¯ve decided against using my multimeter here as looking at the wiring at the switch and the gauge of wire used, I¡¯d be surprised if it was anything but mains voltage.
?
I agree with Brian on sticking relay but want to caution you (if you are probing) that some Hammer machines do run line voltage to the switches. This was discussed before here:
The older hammer machines have a schematic with 24VAC safety circuit like Felder but based on only 2 accounts it seems that the Hammer has line voltage going to switches.
The older machines with low voltage circuit, that I have come across, have electrical cabinet like Felder. The newer Hammer machine has all electrical stuffed in a box and the 2 machines I have come across with line voltage switches (one
in USA the other abroad) were of this design.
Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations
|
The plot thickens; now I've spotted the roller chain is touching near the tensioner pulley as it appears to be too slack for the tensioner to pull the chain sufficiently clear. Felder have confirmed I have the correct 158 link chain got my C3-31. Going to try a 05b chain replacement to see if the original has stretched. Worst case I can remove a few links.
?
|
Re: Replacement of internal dust hose is K3 Hammer slider
CAUTION!!?
?
I was in the saw this morning, replacing the old now-stiff & brittle 4" internal hose between the 3D printer coupler & the exhaust port at the bottom front. When the saw is tilted, beyond about 40 degrees, the hose gets trapped between the motor and the side wall, at which point the hose resists bending, and it is quite hard to set the tilt all the way to 45 degrees. A rib on the side wall protrudes about an inch, which also adds to the impedance.?
?
See the illustrative pics.
?
Blade at standard tilt, from above
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Blade at standard tilt, from below front.
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Blade at >40 deg, from below. Hose gets jammed against side wall & rib.?
?
This problem must occur with the standard hose setup, too, because there's really no room for the hose between the side wall and the motor when the blade is at extreme tilt. Which is why the original hose kept falling off in the first place.
?
Anyway, it is unfortunate, but perhaps not a deal breaker for everyone: I apparently have not used the saw tilt beyond 40 degrees for a year. I usually use my 10" miter saw for 45 deg angled cuts.?
?
One possible solution is to use as flexible a hose as you can. The copper wire hose was the only 4" hose in stock at the nearest tool store yesterday; an all-plastic more flexible one would have been a better choice.?
?
Another solution is to modify the coupler design so that the round exhaust points directly downward from the rectangular interface and perhaps a bit toward the inside of the saw casing -- ie, towards the motor. The coupler needs to be kept as small as possible to keep it from fowling the max tilt position.?
?
Further investigation shows when the saw is tilted fully, there's at most one inch distance between the bottom of the trapezoidal metal dust collection device and the side wall in the saw. The saw was never designed properly to accommodate the dust collection hose when tilted to 45 degrees. No wonder my original duct hose kept falling off!?
?
So if you choose to use the 3D printed coupler here, DO NOT TILT THE SAW >40 degrees. You will risk breaking the coupler and damaging the hose. I think this probably holds true for standard dust collection hose mounting too unless a very flexible hose is used.?
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
Voltages also vary throughout the day. I've had trouble with commercial power back in the day and the utility company came out and put a data logger to verify voltages.
Brian Lamb blamb11@... lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 12:30:16 PM MST, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
Ron, the Felder manual requires voltage plus or minus 10%, but ¡°recommends¡± plus or minus 5% for machines equipped with PCS. Mine has PCS.
?
5% is a pretty tight tolerance.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
Ron, the Felder manual requires voltage plus or minus 10%, but ¡°recommends¡± plus or minus 5% for machines equipped with PCS. Mine has PCS.
?
5% is a pretty tight tolerance.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
¡°It wasn¡¯t obvious to myself or the tech how to interpret the +10%/-10% (is this input or desired output?)¡±
This exercise is adjusting the low voltages used in the machine. The available voltages are listed on the right side. Not all may be used in the machine.
The input side will connect to 0V and either 230 or 400 depending upon the source voltage.
If the input voltage is low (causing the output voltage to be low) you can move the wire from 0V to -10%. This reduces the primary turns, thereby ALL secondary (output) voltages will be higher.
Conversely, if the input voltage is high (causing the output voltage to be high) you can move the wire from 0V to +10%. This increases the primary turns, thereby ALL secondary (output) voltages will be lower.
Hope this helps.
Imran Malik
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Show quoted text
On Jan 29, 2025, at 1:25?PM, Ron Pomeroy via groups.io <rpomeroy@...> wrote: It wasn¡¯t obvious to myself or the tech how to interpret the +10%/-10% (is this input or desired output?)
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
You thought right. ?It¡¯s 10% - it¡¯s written down in the manual that ships with the machine.
?
- Ron
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Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
I just went through this whole exercise.
?
*** First off - before taking any action on your Felder equipment get authorization and work with Felder Technical Support. ***
?
My KF700SP was displaying an over-voltage error. ?My voltage coming from my Phase Perfect PTE007 was the same as the line voltage - 242 VAC. ?
?
If you check the specs for the electrical connection in the manual is states 230V +/- 10% (207-253V) which is well within the tolerance.
?
I¡¯m stating this because you can¡¯t change the voltage coming out of the Phase Perfect enough to make the machine happy. ?2 of the 3 phases are are coming directly from the feed to the Phase Perfect (pass-through - not adjustable). ?The other phase is synthesized by the Phase Perfect. ?The adjustment Phase Perfect provides only balances the synthesized phase to the passthrough legs.
?
I worked with a Felder Tech and their guidance was to change a tap on the internal control transformer which is designed to easily compensate for a low or high input voltage. It wasn¡¯t obvious to myself or the tech how to interpret the +10%/-10% (is this input or desired output?) so it was trial and error. ?The photo below shows where I moved the black wire to the +10% tap (the 0V tap is a screw type and the +/-10% taps are stab type that works similar to the back of an electrical socket).?
?
I had to physically unmount the transformer to get to the screw to detach the wire from the 0V tap. ?Remounted and then just attached it to the +10% tap.
?
?
Personally I think there are some manufacturing variances at issue here given this is re-occurring and the input voltage is within thier stated spec.
?
Regards,
?
Ron
|
Hi Morgan,
I should have also mentioned that if your machine is out of warranty, you can purchase the relay online by using the PN on the relay. The PN should also be in the wiring diagram. There are coupon reasons to consider this. The potential price delta and the time it might take for you to receive the part.
It is also easy to confirm the stuck contacts once I am able to see the electrical docs. Can be done safely with power removed.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 29, 2025, at 11:52?AM, Morgan Skinner via groups.io <morgan@...> wrote: ?
Thanks Imran - I¡¯ve decided against using my multimeter here as looking at the wiring at the switch and the gauge of wire used, I¡¯d be surprised if it was anything but mains voltage.
Cheers,
Morgan
On 29 Jan 2025, at 15:38, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
I agree with Brian on sticking relay but want to caution you (if you are probing) that some Hammer machines do run line voltage to the switches. This was discussed before here:
?
The older hammer machines have a schematic with 24VAC safety circuit like Felder but based on only 2 accounts it seems that the Hammer has line voltage going to switches.
?
The older machines with low voltage circuit, that I have come across, have electrical cabinet like Felder. The newer Hammer machine has all electrical stuffed in a box and the 2 machines I have come across with line voltage switches (one in USA the other
abroad) were of this design.
?
Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations
|
Re: Replacement of internal dust hose is K3 Hammer slider
Attached are the STL file, which is the standard 3d file format, and the F3D file, which is the file type for Fusion 360 for those who may want to make adjustments to the design.
?
If you find these useful, as I did, Matt says it'd be great if you could make a donation to support the FabLab at the Salt Spring Public Library, which is largely a community volunteer run operation.?
?
Donations can be made at:
With a comment about directing the donation to the FabLab.?
?
Thanks & enjoy!
|
Hi Morgan,
If possible please share your machine electrical docs here or with me privately. It helps us to help others with these docs. Currently I only have hammer C3-31 circa 2000.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 29, 2025, at 11:52?AM, Morgan Skinner via groups.io <morgan@...> wrote: ?
Thanks Imran - I¡¯ve decided against using my multimeter here as looking at the wiring at the switch and the gauge of wire used, I¡¯d be surprised if it was anything but mains voltage.
Cheers,
Morgan
On 29 Jan 2025, at 15:38, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
I agree with Brian on sticking relay but want to caution you (if you are probing) that some Hammer machines do run line voltage to the switches. This was discussed before here:
?
The older hammer machines have a schematic with 24VAC safety circuit like Felder but based on only 2 accounts it seems that the Hammer has line voltage going to switches.
?
The older machines with low voltage circuit, that I have come across, have electrical cabinet like Felder. The newer Hammer machine has all electrical stuffed in a box and the 2 machines I have come across with line voltage switches (one in USA the other
abroad) were of this design.
?
Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations
|
Thanks Imran - I¡¯ve decided against using my multimeter here as looking at the wiring at the switch and the gauge of wire used, I¡¯d be surprised if it was anything but mains voltage.
Cheers,
Morgan
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 29 Jan 2025, at 15:38, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
I agree with Brian on sticking relay but want to caution you (if you are probing) that some Hammer machines do run line voltage to the switches. This was discussed before here:
?
The older hammer machines have a schematic with 24VAC safety circuit like Felder but based on only 2 accounts it seems that the Hammer has line voltage going to switches.
?
The older machines with low voltage circuit, that I have come across, have electrical cabinet like Felder. The newer Hammer machine has all electrical stuffed in a box and the 2 machines I have come across with line voltage switches (one in USA the other
abroad) were of this design.
?
Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations
|
Brian,?
Thanks once again - I¡¯ll contact Felder.
Cheers,
Morgan
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 29 Jan 2025, at 15:27, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
I don't have a wiring diagram, but it's going to be one of the black boxes on the lower right in your picture. I would contact Felder or examine your wiring chart to determine which is which.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 08:12:31 AM MST, Morgan Skinner <morgan@...> wrote:
Brian,
Thanks for the very prompt reply. Could you help me to identify which part the relay is?
Thanks again for your assistance, it¡¯s very much appreciated.
Regards,
Morgan
On 29 Jan 2025, at 14:46, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
The start/stop buttons are all low voltage that engage or disengage a relay inside the machine to power it on/off. I suspect your relay has burned contacts and is sticking shut. Replace that and it should solve your problems.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 07:42:07 AM MST, Morgan Skinner <morgan@...> wrote:
Hello folks, I¡¯m new here having just purchased a couple of second hand Hammer machines, a B3 Perform and an N4400.
Overall I am delighted with both machines, however the B3 has an odd (and very unsafe) quirk in that sometimes it won¡¯t switch off, using any of the ¡°off¡± switches (there are three in all on this model).
I leave the machine unplugged unless I¡¯m using it, and unplugging does NOT necessarily reset it back to a normal condition - if I plug it in again, some times it will start immediately.
As far as I can tell there have been no alterations to the wiring of the machine, and a lot of the time it works just as expected, however sometimes it goes rogue.
The only thing I can think is that (maybe!) the ¡°on¡± switch contact(s) are somehow ¡°locked¡± together in the ¡°on¡± position inside the switch, and thus override any of the ¡°off¡± switches. Just to be clear, once the saw is in this ¡°I¡¯m staying on
whatever you do¡± mode, I cannot switch it off using the off button next to the on switch, the emergency off button at the side of the saw, or the emergency off button at the rear of the saw. Both of the latter are of the ¡°push to stop, rotate and pull to re-enable¡±
variety.
Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated - as it stands the saw is a bit on the deadly side.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide.
Regards, Morgan
<image0.jpeg>
|
I agree with Brian on sticking relay but want to caution you (if you are probing) that some Hammer machines do run line voltage to the switches. This was discussed before here:
?
The older hammer machines have a schematic with 24VAC safety circuit like Felder but based on only 2 accounts it seems that the Hammer has line voltage going to switches.
?
The older machines with low voltage circuit, that I have come across, have electrical cabinet like Felder. The newer Hammer machine has all electrical stuffed in a box and the 2 machines I have come across with line voltage switches (one in USA the other abroad) were of this design.
?
Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations
|
I don't have a wiring diagram, but it's going to be one of the black boxes on the lower right in your picture. I would contact Felder or examine your wiring chart to determine which is which.
Brian Lamb blamb11@... lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 08:12:31 AM MST, Morgan Skinner <morgan@...> wrote:
Brian,
Thanks for the very prompt reply. Could you help me to identify which part the relay is?
Thanks again for your assistance, it¡¯s very much appreciated.
Regards,
Morgan
On 29 Jan 2025, at 14:46, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
The start/stop buttons are all low voltage that engage or disengage a relay inside the machine to power it on/off. I suspect your relay has burned contacts and is sticking shut. Replace that and it should solve your problems.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 07:42:07 AM MST, Morgan Skinner <morgan@...> wrote:
Hello folks, I¡¯m new here having just purchased a couple of second hand Hammer machines, a B3 Perform and an N4400.
Overall I am delighted with both machines, however the B3 has an odd (and very unsafe) quirk in that sometimes it won¡¯t switch off, using any of the ¡°off¡± switches (there are three in all on this model).
I leave the machine unplugged unless I¡¯m using it, and unplugging does NOT necessarily reset it back to a normal condition - if I plug it in again, some times it will start immediately.
As far as I can tell there have been no alterations to the wiring of the machine, and a lot of the time it works just as expected, however sometimes it goes rogue.
The only thing I can think is that (maybe!) the ¡°on¡± switch contact(s) are somehow ¡°locked¡± together in the ¡°on¡± position inside the switch, and thus override any of the ¡°off¡± switches. Just to be clear, once the saw is in this ¡°I¡¯m staying on
whatever you do¡± mode, I cannot switch it off using the off button next to the on switch, the emergency off button at the side of the saw, or the emergency off button at the rear of the saw. Both of the latter are of the ¡°push to stop, rotate and pull to re-enable¡±
variety.
Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated - as it stands the saw is a bit on the deadly side.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide.
Regards, Morgan
|
Brian,
Thanks for the very prompt reply. Could you help me to identify which part the relay is?
Thanks again for your assistance, it¡¯s very much appreciated.
Regards,
Morgan
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 29 Jan 2025, at 14:46, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
The start/stop buttons are all low voltage that engage or disengage a relay inside the machine to power it on/off. I suspect your relay has burned contacts and is sticking shut. Replace that and it should solve your problems.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 07:42:07 AM MST, Morgan Skinner <morgan@...> wrote:
Hello folks, I¡¯m new here having just purchased a couple of second hand Hammer machines, a B3 Perform and an N4400.
Overall I am delighted with both machines, however the B3 has an odd (and very unsafe) quirk in that sometimes it won¡¯t switch off, using any of the ¡°off¡± switches (there are three in all on this model).
I leave the machine unplugged unless I¡¯m using it, and unplugging does NOT necessarily reset it back to a normal condition - if I plug it in again, some times it will start immediately.
As far as I can tell there have been no alterations to the wiring of the machine, and a lot of the time it works just as expected, however sometimes it goes rogue.
The only thing I can think is that (maybe!) the ¡°on¡± switch contact(s) are somehow ¡°locked¡± together in the ¡°on¡± position inside the switch, and thus override any of the ¡°off¡± switches. Just to be clear, once the saw is in this ¡°I¡¯m staying on
whatever you do¡± mode, I cannot switch it off using the off button next to the on switch, the emergency off button at the side of the saw, or the emergency off button at the rear of the saw. Both of the latter are of the ¡°push to stop, rotate and pull to re-enable¡±
variety.
Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated - as it stands the saw is a bit on the deadly side.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide.
Regards, Morgan
|
The start/stop buttons are all low voltage that engage or disengage a relay inside the machine to power it on/off. I suspect your relay has burned contacts and is sticking shut. Replace that and it should solve your problems.
Brian Lamb blamb11@... lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 07:42:07 AM MST, Morgan Skinner <morgan@...> wrote:
Hello folks, I¡¯m new here having just purchased a couple of second hand Hammer machines, a B3 Perform and an N4400.
Overall I am delighted with both machines, however the B3 has an odd (and very unsafe) quirk in that sometimes it won¡¯t switch off, using any of the ¡°off¡± switches (there are three in all on this model).
I leave the machine unplugged unless I¡¯m using it, and unplugging does NOT necessarily reset it back to a normal condition - if I plug it in again, some times it will start immediately.
As far as I can tell there have been no alterations to the wiring of the machine, and a lot of the time it works just as expected, however sometimes it goes rogue.
The only thing I can think is that (maybe!) the ¡°on¡± switch contact(s) are somehow ¡°locked¡± together in the ¡°on¡± position inside the switch, and thus override any of the ¡°off¡± switches. Just to be clear, once the saw is in this ¡°I¡¯m staying on whatever you do¡± mode, I cannot switch it off using the off button next to the on switch, the emergency off button at the side of the saw, or the emergency off button at the rear of the saw. Both of the latter are of the ¡°push to stop, rotate and pull to re-enable¡± variety.
Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated - as it stands the saw is a bit on the deadly side.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide.
Regards, Morgan
|
Hello folks, I¡¯m new here having just purchased a couple of second hand Hammer machines, a B3 Perform and an N4400.
Overall I am delighted with both machines, however the B3 has an odd (and very unsafe) quirk in that sometimes it won¡¯t switch off, using any of the ¡°off¡± switches (there are three in all on this model).
I leave the machine unplugged unless I¡¯m using it, and unplugging does NOT necessarily reset it back to a normal condition - if I plug it in again, some times it will start immediately.
As far as I can tell there have been no alterations to the wiring of the machine, and a lot of the time it works just as expected, however sometimes it goes rogue.
The only thing I can think is that (maybe!) the ¡°on¡± switch contact(s) are somehow ¡°locked¡± together in the ¡°on¡± position inside the switch, and thus override any of the ¡°off¡± switches. Just to be clear, once the saw is in this ¡°I¡¯m staying on whatever you do¡± mode, I cannot switch it off using the off button next to the on switch, the emergency off button at the side of the saw, or the emergency off button at the rear of the saw. Both of the latter are of the ¡°push to stop, rotate and pull to re-enable¡± variety.
Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated - as it stands the saw is a bit on the deadly side.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide.
Regards, Morgan
|
Have an A3-31 and recently started to develop snipe on the jointer.? It appears the near side (closest to operator) of the outfeed table is not co-planer.? Also, started to develop snipe at the front and trail ends of the planer.? i spent countless hours trying to fix the planer but even after help of Hammer (instructions only) I'm still getting the snipe.? I am getting distinguishable planer roller marks on the board which maybe means I have the rollers too tight?? Any advice help plz.? ?
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Re: Blade to Fence Capacity on BF6-41 w/retrofit fence
Thanks for your reply. I'll get back with some pictures.
?
Louis
|
imran
Ron Pomeroy
