Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
Netanel, that is one of the things the tech checked, and changed. He modified something in the electrical box rather than changing the plug connection. I am not sure he documented his change.?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
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Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
In the EU, motor plates tend to all be rated 230v for low voltage.? Some countries ( France ) run 220 and some ( UK ) 240 so designing for 230 allows the?same motors to be sold ( even though no grid grids run 230 ).? Since the same motor is also sold to the
US, it must be able to handle the reduced v/hz ratio and run undervoltage somewhat, probably reducing torque slightly from a 60hz only motor.? Most new motors can be overspeeded to about 80- 90 hz before torque and hp drop?off significantly so running a 50hz
motor
?at 60hz doesn't cause issues.? The high voltage rating of 400 will allow the motor to be run on the US 480v system at the same torque but with higher horsepower.? SCM used 50 hz motors speeded to 60 hz for the US market which is why their 7.5 hp Italian motors
are rated at 9 hp here.
None of these issues related to different voltages should create the problems mentioned unless the manufactured leg at 208V to ground is somehow impacting the controls or internal transformer.
Dave
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David,
?
The Felder machine/motor is still spec according to the EU grid system (230V), you can see that the motor sticker says it design to work with 230V.
The only different is the way the motor is wired (and some minor electrical component that were changed) , in delta configuration, it expects 230V between phases and in star 400V.
The motor is also running at 20% higher rate given the higher phase (60Hz vs 50Hz)
?
?
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You need something there whenever running thin material. The Aigner fill strip has a couple small hex screws you can adjust against the cast table to keep it from sliding or moving when pressure is applied downward. There are also hex screws to adjust it flush to the outfeed fence face. This is very important for accurate work.
That said I have been setting up and training here in the BVI on a T26 that has been setting for 5 years in this very humid climate. It was missing the fill strip and I made one out of a piece of wood with sandpaper glued to it. A bit if fiddling to get it set but works. I would say if you sprung big bucks for the fence may as well get the filler.
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Hi all Aigner Fencer users,
?
I am about to order the Aigner Fence and was wondering about the accessories such as the filler strip. From what I understand, this piece is simply wedged into place by lowering the left side of the fence? Or is there something more special about it? It does seem to have set screws or a tightening feature of sorts. Do I need to spend the high price or could I simply use any metal bar or easier yet, a strip of wood, wedged in place? The support spreader seems to serve a more complex task which is worth the price to pay.
?
Many? thanks,
?
Cornelius
Cyprus
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Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
Yes, it was a comment to David (Dave) kumm?
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Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
I assume you are directing that to Dave Kumm? ? I ask because this is a debate I’d rather watch than participate in. ?LOL
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On Dec 17, 2024, at 1:09?AM, netanel.belgazal via groups.io <netanel.belgazal@...> wrote:
David,
?
The Felder machine/motor is still spec according to the EU grid system (230V), you can see that the motor sticker says it design to work with 230V.
The only different is the way the motor is wired (and some minor electrical component that were changed) , in delta configuration, it expects 230V between phases and in star 400V.
The motor is also running at 20% higher rate given the higher phase (60Hz vs 50Hz)
?
?
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[dbestworkshop@...]
_._,_.From:?"David Kumm via groups.io" <davekumm@...>
Subject:?Re: [FOG] Adjusting Phase Perfect?
Date:?December 16, 2024 at 9:11:18?PM PST
Resent-From:?davekumm@...
Something else is wrong here.? 230v is an old designation, just as 220 is for even older machines.? Any new 3 phase machine sourced to the US will run on either 208 or 240v.? 230 is sometimes used to reference?a machine that will run on either.? Since US voltage varies +- from 240, there is no way running at 238-242 is going to cause problems, and no way would a new machine need a buck transformer to operate in this market.
How is the machine misbehaving?? I've bought machines with a starter that had an incorrect coil, a faulty transformer, or wiring labeled incorrectly.? Spending to adjust the incoming voltage seems like high risk low reward compared to the more common problems.
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Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
Hey John,
I have a buck/boost transformer you can have for $250 CAD. Would just need to get it down to you somehow. I have to pick up a blade in Northport WA. later this week, so could possibly send it to you from there.
Regards,
Bryce
--
CHdrRaAZd_pOa7wwbdNPUEw
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Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
David,
?
The Felder machine/motor is still spec according to the EU grid system (230V), you can see that the motor sticker says it design to work with 230V.
The only different is the way the motor is wired (and some minor electrical component that were changed) , in delta configuration, it expects 230V between phases and in star 400V.
The motor is also running at 20% higher rate given the higher phase (60Hz vs 50Hz)
?
?
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
John, I had exactly the same issue with my Profil 45Z shaper. The shaper would run for one time, but then the motor won't spin at all until I turned the machine off and on.
The motorized fence/screen/spindle motor would work as expected.
My input voltage to the PP is 241-242V and the manufactured leg is also in that ballpark. What I eventually did is to move the manufactured leg to L2 and that solved my issue.
Did you check on which leg is manufactured leg is connected? [don't relay on the cable]
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Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
John, if the technician left the electrical box unsealed and you can open it without breaking the seal, open it to see if after the saw fails to start you have a blinking LED on the brake board. If indeed the LED blinks five times, the technician might have adjusted the braking strength, so the blade stops within 6 to 7 seconds, but further adjustment is necessary, which in this case would be to set the “stop detection” - easy operation that requires bridging some pins on the board.
?
If you do not have access to the electrical box to see if the LED is blinking, listen and time for how long the brake is buzzing after the blade reaches a complete stop- the buzzing ideally should stop within 1.5 seconds after the blade stops. If it buzzes for less than 1.5s or much longer, the “stop detection” has to be adjusted.
?
You have a much more complex saw, especially considering the PCS, but possibly (I could be totally wrong here) Felder added this additional functionality without redesigning everything else ( the brake board ), so that the above helps.?
?
Mariusz
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Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
David Best,
?
I did wipe down the rails, clearing some smudge. I’ve not checked the switch on the slider, but can do that tomorrow.
?
Interesting that you mention the braking circuit. It took the tech some time to get the braking right. It would screech loudly and stop immediately, or have little or no braking at all. He finally got the blade to stop smoothly in approximately 6 to 7 seconds.
?
I really appreciate the time, effort, and expertise people here have chipped in to help me!
?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID USA
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
David Kümm, in this case misbehaving is failure to respond to the start button. The saw will work a few times (one or two start - stop cycles), then just not respond until the main power is switched off and on. All other features work, such as moving the blade and the fence.
?
As far as the voltage is concerned, you can easily tell by my posts that I do not know much about electrical things.
?
The commissioning agreement contains the following. The values filled in the blanks were measured at the outlet (no load) by the electrician.
?
For the “machines electrical package” I looked in the user manual for the saw. It says 3 x 230v. The nameplate on the saw itself says 230 volts also.
?
I certainly agree that adjusting the input voltage is unlikely to make much difference. If there is a voltage issue anywhere it is more likely to be an internal issue.
?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
That was my first reaction also. ?I think you’re getting bad input from the Felder technician. ?Given the readings you have provided regarding the leg-to-leg voltage levels, there should be no reason this machine should malfunction because of your current power supply voltage levels.
The intermittent start button behavior described in John’s earlier post sounds to me more like: A) dirty sliding table bearing ways impacting the remote start/stop function, B) a loose wire related to the remote start/stop button, or C) given that the problem clears up by re-powering the machine, that the breaking circuit is not correctly adjusted. ?All of those issues have been cited in other posts by other users relating to intermittent start failures. ?And who knows what the new PCS system is introducing in terms of this problem. What David Best - via mobile phone?
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On Dec 16, 2024, at 9:11?PM, David Kumm via groups.io <davekumm@...> wrote:
?
Something else is wrong here.? 230v is an old designation, just as 220 is for even older machines.? Any new 3 phase machine sourced to the US will run on either 208 or 240v.? 230 is sometimes used to reference?a machine that will run on either.? Since US voltage
varies +- from 240, there is no way running at 238-242 is going to cause problems, and no way would a new machine need a buck transformer to operate in this market.
How is the machine misbehaving?? I've bought machines with a starter that had an incorrect coil, a faulty transformer, or wiring labeled incorrectly.? Spending to adjust the incoming voltage seems like high risk low reward compared to the more common problems.
Dave
That looks like the correct transformer, if indeed that is what is needed.?
It seems that my supply is within spec, although just barely. If it was cheap and easy to cut the voltage back by 5% just to see if it makes a difference, I would do it. Before I spend $1,200 or $1,500 on a transformer I need to be pretty certain it will
fix things.?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
Something else is wrong here.? 230v is an old designation, just as 220 is for even older machines.? Any new 3 phase machine sourced to the US will run on either 208 or 240v.? 230 is sometimes used to reference?a machine that will run on either.? Since US voltage
varies +- from 240, there is no way running at 238-242 is going to cause problems, and no way would a new machine need a buck transformer to operate in this market.
How is the machine misbehaving?? I've bought machines with a starter that had an incorrect coil, a faulty transformer, or wiring labeled incorrectly.? Spending to adjust the incoming voltage seems like high risk low reward compared to the more common problems.
Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
That looks like the correct transformer, if indeed that is what is needed.?
It seems that my supply is within spec, although just barely. If it was cheap and easy to cut the voltage back by 5% just to see if it makes a difference, I would do it. Before I spend $1,200 or $1,500 on a transformer I need to be pretty certain it will
fix things.?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
This unit on McMaster seems to be cheaper:
?
?
Thanks,
Rohit Kulshreshtha
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
That looks like the correct transformer, if indeed that is what is needed.?
It seems that my supply is within spec, although just barely. If it was cheap and easy to cut the voltage back by 5% just to see if it makes a difference, I would do it. Before I spend $1,200 or $1,500 on a transformer I need to be pretty certain it will fix things.?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
David Best, they just sit in my Felder cart, for when the day comes. ??
They offer custom colors now?! ?????
Wade
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On Dec 16, 2024, at 8:15 PM, David P. Best via groups.io <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
? Wade, ? Do you have start-up capacitors on your holiday wish list? ? ? ?Hint: the mauve colored ones last longer but cost extra. ? David Best - via mobile phone? On Dec 16, 2024, at 7:34?PM, Wade Dees via groups.io <wjdsignature@...> wrote:
? I sure like my single phase machines! ???
Wade
On Dec 16, 2024, at 6:56 PM, David P. Best via groups.io <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
? Hot leg to ground is a meaningless measurement in this application. ?Since there is no neutral in the supply to the machine, your electrician should have known that. ? A properly sized and configured buck/boost transformer will bring down the two supply legs and the third manufactured leg should follow. So before you go tweaking the manufactured leg output voltage, get a transformer installed and the input voltage between L1 and L2 stabilized at the proper level. ? David Best - via mobile phone? On Dec 16, 2024, at 5:21?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
? I understand that T1 and T2 pass unaltered, so T1/ground and T2/ground voltages are as supplied by the utility. T3 is manufactured. In my case, my electrician measured T1/ground and T2/ground as 118.5 and 119.8 v, and T3/ground was 207. Leg to leg voltages were 238 v for each combination.
?
Today I measured 119.3, 208, and 121 to ground, and leg to leg voltages of 240, 240.5, and 241.5, so a little higher than the electrician measured. I confess to being not experienced in this sort of thing, and it is hard to get the right connection in the outlet to measure voltages.
?
It ?is the leg-to-leg voltage that Felder seems to be concerned with, and they recommend a tighter tolerance for PCS-equipped machines. If the machine is looking for 230 volts I am right at the 5% tolerance. The cotton-pickin’ thing ought to be OK.
?
I can only guess what the voltage calibration procedure PP describes actually does. Perhaps it changes the relationship between the manufactured leg and each of the two other legs (V23 and V31). I attached a couple of screen shots of the pages from the PP manual.
<IMG_3197.jpeg> <IMG_3196.jpeg> ?
?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
I'm wondering if something like this on the supply-side of the PP would help you:
?
https://www.larsonelectronics.com/product/297641/1-phase-buck-boost-step-down-transformer-240v-primary-230v-secondary-65-7-amps-50-60hz?productIdBase64=Mjk3NjQx0&rank=11
?
Rohit Kulshreshtha
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
I sure like my single phase machines! ???
Wade
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Show quoted text
On Dec 16, 2024, at 6:56 PM, David P. Best via groups.io <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
? Hot leg to ground is a meaningless measurement in this application. ?Since there is no neutral in the supply to the machine, your electrician should have known that. ? A properly sized and configured buck/boost transformer will bring down the two supply legs and the third manufactured leg should follow. So before you go tweaking the manufactured leg output voltage, get a transformer installed and the input voltage between L1 and L2 stabilized at the proper level. ? David Best - via mobile phone? On Dec 16, 2024, at 5:21?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
? I understand that T1 and T2 pass unaltered, so T1/ground and T2/ground voltages are as supplied by the utility. T3 is manufactured. In my case, my electrician measured T1/ground and T2/ground as 118.5 and 119.8 v, and T3/ground was 207. Leg to leg voltages were 238 v for each combination.
?
Today I measured 119.3, 208, and 121 to ground, and leg to leg voltages of 240, 240.5, and 241.5, so a little higher than the electrician measured. I confess to being not experienced in this sort of thing, and it is hard to get the right connection in the outlet to measure voltages.
?
It ?is the leg-to-leg voltage that Felder seems to be concerned with, and they recommend a tighter tolerance for PCS-equipped machines. If the machine is looking for 230 volts I am right at the 5% tolerance. The cotton-pickin’ thing ought to be OK.
?
I can only guess what the voltage calibration procedure PP describes actually does. Perhaps it changes the relationship between the manufactured leg and each of the two other legs (V23 and V31). I attached a couple of screen shots of the pages from the PP manual.
<IMG_3197.jpeg> <IMG_3196.jpeg> ?
?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Re: Adjusting Phase Perfect?
Hot leg to ground is a meaningless measurement in this application. ?Since there is no neutral in the supply to the machine, your electrician should have known that. ? A properly sized and configured buck/boost transformer will bring down the two supply legs and the third manufactured leg should follow. So before you go tweaking the manufactured leg output voltage, get a transformer installed and the input voltage between L1 and L2 stabilized at the proper level. ? David Best - via mobile phone?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 16, 2024, at 5:21?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
? I understand that T1 and T2 pass unaltered, so T1/ground and T2/ground voltages are as supplied by the utility. T3 is manufactured. In my case, my electrician measured T1/ground and T2/ground as 118.5 and 119.8 v, and T3/ground was 207. Leg to leg voltages were 238 v for each combination.
?
Today I measured 119.3, 208, and 121 to ground, and leg to leg voltages of 240, 240.5, and 241.5, so a little higher than the electrician measured. I confess to being not experienced in this sort of thing, and it is hard to get the right connection in the outlet to measure voltages.
?
It ?is the leg-to-leg voltage that Felder seems to be concerned with, and they recommend a tighter tolerance for PCS-equipped machines. If the machine is looking for 230 volts I am right at the 5% tolerance. The cotton-pickin’ thing ought to be OK.
?
I can only guess what the voltage calibration procedure PP describes actually does. Perhaps it changes the relationship between the manufactured leg and each of the two other legs (V23 and V31). I attached a couple of screen shots of the pages from the PP manual.
<IMG_3197.jpeg> <IMG_3196.jpeg> ?
?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
David P. Best
Bryce Comer