Hi Imran, if it¡¯s big enough I bandsaw the majority and clean up with a chisel.
?
If it¡¯s narrow I do all slots with the 2 blades and then go to one rip blade to make successive passes
?
The tenon is the two blade setup with correct spacing the cut the shoulders on the saw
?
I have a match ground pair of rip blades
?
regards, Rod
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Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
This picture of a 68mm thick euro window section with Accoya cladding illustrates the solid 3 layer construction. I use this method for doors 56, 68 and 78mm thick. No glue lines to the weather.
Quartered and rift material preferred but I have also used flat sawn to meet customer tastes.
Do not use this method for 45mm thick doors.
Here is a link to a German scantling supplier. They sometimes use solid wood stave core with 7mm facings but only if well protected from weather.
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Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
Hi Joe,
You mention 3 layer lamination ?method but also say there is no glue lines to the weather. My door fits this except the outside of the stiles and top/bottom rails. How do you avoid these glue lines to not be exposed to the weather? Perhaps you mean these are protected by the jamb weather seals.
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On Aug 18, 2024, at 10:37?PM, Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> wrote: ? I agree with Mac and use solid whenever I can get the right material. I only use stave core when working with unstable or extremely knotty material. Doors have been built solid for many centuries.We used Timberstrand for cores on an interior door job many years ago and had a couple callbacks where the 1/8¡± skin cracked. This material has little movement and you need thin skins to avoid cracking. The contractor commented that my quality must be out the door if using OSB for cores. Never used it again. The local hardwood dealers sell Timberstrand specifically made for doors and supposedly has low MC and stored in doors. National Wood sells a LVL core material made for doors. It is made from fir and the grain is vertical orientation compared to construction LVL that have flat grain and usually high moisture content. I do use this material occasionally for difficult material. Works well for barnwood doors.Recently replaced some doors on a historic commercial building. Doors were over 100 years old and actually not in terrible condition. One was solid pine with high exposure and the other stave core construction that was under a 6¡¯ overhang. The solid door was in a lot better condition than the sat e core one. The cores had telegraphed through and much cracking of the 1/8¡± skins. I built the new doors out of 10/4 solid Sipo Mahogany, first picture. Second picture is a barnwood door with the LVL core. Third picture is 3 layer lamination for a 68mm thick euro door in knotty white oak. This is a good construction for these thick doors where material needs to be laminated. With this construction there are no glue lines to the weather compared to an exterior door with 1/8¡± or thicker skins.<IMG_7522.jpeg> <IMG_1852.jpeg> <IMG_4809.jpeg>
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Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
Dennis,
Thanks for the details. It is a good discussion. I am not sure I am sold yet. Your door sound beautiful, if you are able to please share pics.
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On Aug 19, 2024, at 12:31?AM, dennisnmnyamamoto via groups.io <dennisnmnyamamoto@...> wrote: ? Imran,
?
I don't know for sure how the LSL was stored.? However, it was probably in an unconditioned building, or outside with a cover on it.? I believe it was in the summer months, and rain in the summer months here is rare.
?
Another reason I used a core and veneers is for color and grain matching.? All of the veneers were re-sawn from 8/4 Honduran Mahogany and then grain matched both front and back.? For example, all of the stiles for the door and side light are bookmatched.
?
Dennis
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Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
Imran,
?
I don't know for sure how the LSL was stored.? However, it was probably in an unconditioned building, or outside with a cover on it.? I believe it was in the summer months, and rain in the summer months here is rare.
?
Another reason I used a core and veneers is for color and grain matching.? All of the veneers were re-sawn from 8/4 Honduran Mahogany and then grain matched both front and back.? For example, all of the stiles for the door and side light are bookmatched.
?
Dennis
|
Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
In general, I agree with Joe and Mac. ?However there are circumstances (exterior marine environments for instance) where a fabricated stave material is a good alternative. ?You might want to check into this material if you decide to go this direction. ?
Personally, for paint grade and veneered passage doors where the solid timber is not AAA+, I generally split the solid timber in half lengthwise (bandsaw), reverse the one of the two parts and glue it back together as a sandwich, then mill to dimension.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Aug 18, 2024, at 7:36?PM, Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> wrote:
I agree with Mac and use solid whenever I can get the right material. I only use stave core when working with unstable or extremely knotty material. Doors have been built solid for many centuries.
We used Timberstrand for cores on an interior door job many years ago and had a couple callbacks where the 1/8¡± skin cracked. This material has little movement and you need thin skins to avoid cracking. The contractor commented that my quality must be out the door if using OSB for cores. Never used it again. The local hardwood dealers sell Timberstrand specifically made for doors and supposedly has low MC and stored in doors. National Wood sells a LVL core material made for doors. It is made from fir and the grain is vertical orientation compared to construction LVL that have flat grain and usually high moisture content. I do use this material occasionally for difficult material. Works well for barnwood doors.
Recently replaced some doors on a historic commercial building. Doors were over 100 years old and actually not in terrible condition. One was solid pine with high exposure and the other stave core construction that was under a 6¡¯ overhang. The solid door was in a lot better condition than the sat e core one. The cores had telegraphed through and much cracking of the 1/8¡± skins. I built the new doors out of 10/4 solid Sipo Mahogany, first picture. Second picture is a barnwood door with the LVL core. Third picture is 3 layer lamination for a 68mm thick euro door in knotty white oak. This is a good construction for these thick doors where material needs to be laminated. With this construction there are no glue lines to the weather compared to an exterior door with 1/8¡± or thicker skins.
<IMG_7522.jpeg><IMG_1852.jpeg><IMG_4809.jpeg>
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Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
I agree with Mac and use solid whenever I can get the right material. I only use stave core when working with unstable or extremely knotty material. Doors have been built solid for many centuries.
We used Timberstrand for cores on an interior door job many years ago and had a couple callbacks where the 1/8¡± skin cracked. This material has little movement and you need thin skins to avoid cracking. The contractor commented that my quality must be out the door if using OSB for cores. Never used it again. The local hardwood dealers sell Timberstrand specifically made for doors and supposedly has low MC and stored in doors. National Wood sells a LVL core material made for doors. It is made from fir and the grain is vertical orientation compared to construction LVL that have flat grain and usually high moisture content. I do use this material occasionally for difficult material. Works well for barnwood doors.
Recently replaced some doors on a historic commercial building. Doors were over 100 years old and actually not in terrible condition. One was solid pine with high exposure and the other stave core construction that was under a 6¡¯ overhang. The solid door was in a lot better condition than the sat e core one. The cores had telegraphed through and much cracking of the 1/8¡± skins. I built the new doors out of 10/4 solid Sipo Mahogany, first picture. Second picture is a barnwood door with the LVL core. Third picture is 3 layer lamination for a 68mm thick euro door in knotty white oak. This is a good construction for these thick doors where material needs to be laminated. With this construction there are no glue lines to the weather compared to an exterior door with 1/8¡± or thicker skins.
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Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
Thanks for kind comment!! Sorry to distract you. Best mac,, Designing and building for 50 years
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On Aug 18, 2024, at 4:54?PM, Andy via groups.io <andy.raynor08@...> wrote:
? Sorry Mac. Gotta make the $ to pay for a new pair of those sweet clamps. No time for fun!!!! On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 5:05?PM mac campshure via <mac512002= [email protected]> wrote: It takes all the fun out of it. No selection of material rely on chipboard. Oh well that¡¯s what it is. I guess my point is with proper selection of solid materials and machining you can make flat doors. I am hoping this winter to make ?an entrance door for my selfout of irokao .euro hybrid ?. Mac,,
Designing and building for 50 years ? I could put a meter on it and reject anything over the spec. My ridge beam was delivered with 7%¡. But I get the concern.? On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 3:48?PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: Andy,
That is it, Timberstrand. I called the company and they told me MC as it leaves their factory but if you are buying from a store MC will depend upon storage conditions. ? Joe and Imran, I looked into Timberstrand LSLs. We used these for the headers in my shop.?
It does say doors and windows on it and that¡¯s what got me thinking about them.?
Mac the doors would be 45mm thick. Carbide cutters.? I saw commercial stave cores for building doors at a large hardwood yard years ago. They have lift size stacks. This yard has since gone out of business. I suspect they are something a good supplier can bring for you.?
I¡¯ve heard LVLs are pretty high moisture content but I¡¯ve never tested. I¡¯ve seen commercial doors made with LVL core. That might have been special dried.?
? Andy,
LVL for stave core was at least a hot topic few yrs back when I looked into it. There should be a discussion here. There was one brand that was supposed to be the best option it was called timberxxxx? can¡¯t remember the actual name. If no one comes up with it and you are interested, I can try to find it.
The end result, for me, was that the MC is only guaranteed when you buy the full load from factor. Otherwise you are taking a chance. I decided to not go that route. I built a 2 1/4¡± thick door with 3-ply face glued cypress and it is doing fine. The other I found 60 yr old WRC and it is also doing great.
I also have been using Cetol. It is now sold by PPG under ProLuxe Door and window wood finish.
? Hi All,
?
Looking at doing 5 exterior doors, relatively simple design with a mid rail and panels with a divider for the lower portion, glass and muntins on top. ?
?
Having done stave core with cheaper wood species in the past, it's worked fine but I'm wondering about using LVLs in the build to speed things up.? I don't think the job is quite big enough to warrant outsourcing scantlings, or ordering prefab laminated rails.? Anyone have luck with this approach?? Any gotchas?
?
Also on the finishing - what's your go to finish for wood exterior.? I've always used Sikkens Cetol, is there anything better on the market? ?
?
Thanks All!
|
Seems like a good price too. A current Kappa 450 X-motion, with PCS, 7.5 HP, lacking clamps and the other extras, is US$45,000.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Hi PK¡¯s prospective buyers:
?
I have the same year Kappa 400 X-motion and I can strongly recommend it. In 8 years of serious use, it has never broken down, nor had an issue of any kind that I can recall. The best aspect of the saw (besides
Mac¡¯s clamps and Brian¡¯s parallel fence) has to be the fact that the Kappa 400 holds calibration year after year. Unlike the Profil 45 which does
not hold calibration at all, the Kappa 400 stays exactly square (calibrated using David Best¡¯s dial gauge and machine square set up method), the digital stops stay calibrated, and the rip fence stays accurate. Seriously, the outrigger crosscut
stop stays so square that I rarely check it. In fact, I think I¡¯ve checked it about 3 times in 8 years, and on all three occasions I did not adjust calibration. This makes the machine the most accurate in my shop.
?
For what it is worth, I like my saw very much.
Cheers.
?
?
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On Aug 18, 2024, at 5:09?PM, Jeff <jeff@...> wrote:
? Adding pics of accessories.
?
Felder EGL:
?
<20240818_155853.jpg> <20240818_160022.png> ?
Felder Outrigger Cart:
?
?
Original Felder manuals:
?
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Adding pics of accessories.
?
Felder EGL:
?
?
Felder Outrigger Cart:
?
?
Original Felder manuals:
?
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Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
Sorry Mac. Gotta make the $ to pay for a new pair of those sweet clamps. No time for fun!!!!
On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 5:05?PM mac campshure via <mac512002= [email protected]> wrote: It takes all the fun out of it. No selection of material rely on chipboard. Oh well that¡¯s what it is. I guess my point is with proper selection of solid materials and machining you can make flat doors. I am hoping this winter to make ?an entrance door for my selfout of irokao .euro hybrid ?. Mac,,
Designing and building for 50 years ? I could put a meter on it and reject anything over the spec. My ridge beam was delivered with 7%¡. But I get the concern.? On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 3:48?PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: Andy,
That is it, Timberstrand. I called the company and they told me MC as it leaves their factory but if you are buying from a store MC will depend upon storage conditions. ? Joe and Imran, I looked into Timberstrand LSLs. We used these for the headers in my shop.?
It does say doors and windows on it and that¡¯s what got me thinking about them.?
Mac the doors would be 45mm thick. Carbide cutters.? I saw commercial stave cores for building doors at a large hardwood yard years ago. They have lift size stacks. This yard has since gone out of business. I suspect they are something a good supplier can bring for you.?
I¡¯ve heard LVLs are pretty high moisture content but I¡¯ve never tested. I¡¯ve seen commercial doors made with LVL core. That might have been special dried.?
? Andy,
LVL for stave core was at least a hot topic few yrs back when I looked into it. There should be a discussion here. There was one brand that was supposed to be the best option it was called timberxxxx? can¡¯t remember the actual name. If no one comes up with it and you are interested, I can try to find it.
The end result, for me, was that the MC is only guaranteed when you buy the full load from factor. Otherwise you are taking a chance. I decided to not go that route. I built a 2 1/4¡± thick door with 3-ply face glued cypress and it is doing fine. The other I found 60 yr old WRC and it is also doing great.
I also have been using Cetol. It is now sold by PPG under ProLuxe Door and window wood finish.
? Hi All,
?
Looking at doing 5 exterior doors, relatively simple design with a mid rail and panels with a divider for the lower portion, glass and muntins on top. ?
?
Having done stave core with cheaper wood species in the past, it's worked fine but I'm wondering about using LVLs in the build to speed things up.? I don't think the job is quite big enough to warrant outsourcing scantlings, or ordering prefab laminated rails.? Anyone have luck with this approach?? Any gotchas?
?
Also on the finishing - what's your go to finish for wood exterior.? I've always used Sikkens Cetol, is there anything better on the market? ?
?
Thanks All!
|
Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
It takes all the fun out of it. No selection of material rely on chipboard. Oh well that¡¯s what it is. I guess my point is with proper selection of solid materials and machining you can make flat doors. I am hoping this winter to make ?an entrance door for my selfout of irokao .euro hybrid ?. Mac,,
Designing and building for 50 years
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 18, 2024, at 3:07?PM, Andy via groups.io <andy.raynor08@...> wrote:
? I could put a meter on it and reject anything over the spec. My ridge beam was delivered with 7%¡. But I get the concern.? On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 3:48?PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: Andy,
That is it, Timberstrand. I called the company and they told me MC as it leaves their factory but if you are buying from a store MC will depend upon storage conditions. ? Joe and Imran, I looked into Timberstrand LSLs. We used these for the headers in my shop.?
It does say doors and windows on it and that¡¯s what got me thinking about them.?
Mac the doors would be 45mm thick. Carbide cutters.? I saw commercial stave cores for building doors at a large hardwood yard years ago. They have lift size stacks. This yard has since gone out of business. I suspect they are something a good supplier can bring for you.?
I¡¯ve heard LVLs are pretty high moisture content but I¡¯ve never tested. I¡¯ve seen commercial doors made with LVL core. That might have been special dried.?
? Andy,
LVL for stave core was at least a hot topic few yrs back when I looked into it. There should be a discussion here. There was one brand that was supposed to be the best option it was called timberxxxx? can¡¯t remember the actual name. If no one comes up with it and you are interested, I can try to find it.
The end result, for me, was that the MC is only guaranteed when you buy the full load from factor. Otherwise you are taking a chance. I decided to not go that route. I built a 2 1/4¡± thick door with 3-ply face glued cypress and it is doing fine. The other I found 60 yr old WRC and it is also doing great.
I also have been using Cetol. It is now sold by PPG under ProLuxe Door and window wood finish.
? Hi All,
?
Looking at doing 5 exterior doors, relatively simple design with a mid rail and panels with a divider for the lower portion, glass and muntins on top. ?
?
Having done stave core with cheaper wood species in the past, it's worked fine but I'm wondering about using LVLs in the build to speed things up.? I don't think the job is quite big enough to warrant outsourcing scantlings, or ordering prefab laminated rails.? Anyone have luck with this approach?? Any gotchas?
?
Also on the finishing - what's your go to finish for wood exterior.? I've always used Sikkens Cetol, is there anything better on the market? ?
?
Thanks All!
|
Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
I could put a meter on it and reject anything over the spec. My ridge beam was delivered with 7%¡. But I get the concern.?
On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 3:48?PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: Andy,
That is it, Timberstrand. I called the company and they told me MC as it leaves their factory but if you are buying from a store MC will depend upon storage conditions. ? Joe and Imran, I looked into Timberstrand LSLs. We used these for the headers in my shop.?
It does say doors and windows on it and that¡¯s what got me thinking about them.?
Mac the doors would be 45mm thick. Carbide cutters.? I saw commercial stave cores for building doors at a large hardwood yard years ago. They have lift size stacks. This yard has since gone out of business. I suspect they are something a good supplier can bring for you.?
I¡¯ve heard LVLs are pretty high moisture content but I¡¯ve never tested. I¡¯ve seen commercial doors made with LVL core. That might have been special dried.?
? Andy,
LVL for stave core was at least a hot topic few yrs back when I looked into it. There should be a discussion here. There was one brand that was supposed to be the best option it was called timberxxxx? can¡¯t remember the actual name. If no one comes up with it and you are interested, I can try to find it.
The end result, for me, was that the MC is only guaranteed when you buy the full load from factor. Otherwise you are taking a chance. I decided to not go that route. I built a 2 1/4¡± thick door with 3-ply face glued cypress and it is doing fine. The other I found 60 yr old WRC and it is also doing great.
I also have been using Cetol. It is now sold by PPG under ProLuxe Door and window wood finish.
? Hi All,
?
Looking at doing 5 exterior doors, relatively simple design with a mid rail and panels with a divider for the lower portion, glass and muntins on top. ?
?
Having done stave core with cheaper wood species in the past, it's worked fine but I'm wondering about using LVLs in the build to speed things up.? I don't think the job is quite big enough to warrant outsourcing scantlings, or ordering prefab laminated rails.? Anyone have luck with this approach?? Any gotchas?
?
Also on the finishing - what's your go to finish for wood exterior.? I've always used Sikkens Cetol, is there anything better on the market? ?
?
Thanks All!
|
Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
Dennis,
Thanks for sharing. You recall how LSL, you purchased, was stored. Just want to make sure the OP is able to duplicate your experience.
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Show quoted text
On Aug 18, 2024, at 2:40?PM, dennisnmnyamamoto via groups.io <dennisnmnyamamoto@...> wrote: ?
Andy,
?
I used Weyerhaeuser Timberstrand LSL for the core of an exterior door.? The finish dimensions are 84¡± tall, 38¡± wide and 2¡± thick, so larger than a standard entry door.? I planed the 1 ?¡± thick LSL down 1 ?¡± and applied ?¡± skins.? I used floating tenons drilling the mortises with a Felder FD250.?
?
I live in the San Franciso Bay area where high temperatures are in the 80¡¯s and warmer, and it can go down to freezing in the winter.? More importantly humidity during the summer is 40-50% and the door does get quite wet during winter rains.? It is as flat as when I installed it 5 years ago, and it does not move throughout the year.? It is the only door that I have made, and I would definitely use Timberstrand LSL if building another exterior door.
?
?? Dennis
|
Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
Andy,
That is it, Timberstrand. I called the company and they told me MC as it leaves their factory but if you are buying from a store MC will depend upon storage conditions.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 18, 2024, at 2:03?PM, Andy via groups.io <andy.raynor08@...> wrote: ? Joe and Imran, I looked into Timberstrand LSLs. We used these for the headers in my shop.?
It does say doors and windows on it and that¡¯s what got me thinking about them.?
Mac the doors would be 45mm thick. Carbide cutters.? I saw commercial stave cores for building doors at a large hardwood yard years ago. They have lift size stacks. This yard has since gone out of business. I suspect they are something a good supplier can bring for you.?
I¡¯ve heard LVLs are pretty high moisture content but I¡¯ve never tested. I¡¯ve seen commercial doors made with LVL core. That might have been special dried.?
? Andy,
LVL for stave core was at least a hot topic few yrs back when I looked into it. There should be a discussion here. There was one brand that was supposed to be the best option it was called timberxxxx? can¡¯t remember the actual name. If no one comes up with it and you are interested, I can try to find it.
The end result, for me, was that the MC is only guaranteed when you buy the full load from factor. Otherwise you are taking a chance. I decided to not go that route. I built a 2 1/4¡± thick door with 3-ply face glued cypress and it is doing fine. The other I found 60 yr old WRC and it is also doing great.
I also have been using Cetol. It is now sold by PPG under ProLuxe Door and window wood finish.
? Hi All,
?
Looking at doing 5 exterior doors, relatively simple design with a mid rail and panels with a divider for the lower portion, glass and muntins on top. ?
?
Having done stave core with cheaper wood species in the past, it's worked fine but I'm wondering about using LVLs in the build to speed things up.? I don't think the job is quite big enough to warrant outsourcing scantlings, or ordering prefab laminated rails.? Anyone have luck with this approach?? Any gotchas?
?
Also on the finishing - what's your go to finish for wood exterior.? I've always used Sikkens Cetol, is there anything better on the market? ?
?
Thanks All!
|
Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
|
Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
Exactly what I was thinking. Awesome Dennis! On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 2:40?PM dennisnmnyamamoto via <dennisnmnyamamoto= [email protected]> wrote:
Andy,
?
I used Weyerhaeuser Timberstrand LSL for the core of an exterior door.? The finish dimensions are 84¡± tall, 38¡± wide and 2¡± thick, so larger than a standard entry door.? I planed the 1 ?¡± thick LSL down 1 ?¡± and applied ?¡± skins.? I used floating tenons drilling the mortises with a Felder FD250.?
?
I live in the San Franciso Bay area where high temperatures are in the 80¡¯s and warmer, and it can go down to freezing in the winter.? More importantly humidity during the summer is 40-50% and the door does get quite wet during winter rains.? It is as flat as when I installed it 5 years ago, and it does not move throughout the year.? It is the only door that I have made, and I would definitely use Timberstrand LSL if building another exterior door.
?
?? Dennis
|
Re: Exterior stave core construction and finishes
Andy,
?
I used Weyerhaeuser Timberstrand LSL for the core of an exterior door.? The finish dimensions are 84¡± tall, 38¡± wide and 2¡± thick, so larger than a standard entry door.? I planed the 1 ?¡± thick LSL down 1 ?¡± and applied ?¡± skins.? I used floating tenons drilling the mortises with a Felder FD250.?
?
I live in the San Franciso Bay area where high temperatures are in the 80¡¯s and warmer, and it can go down to freezing in the winter.? More importantly humidity during the summer is 40-50% and the door does get quite wet during winter rains.? It is as flat as when I installed it 5 years ago, and it does not move throughout the year.? It is the only door that I have made, and I would definitely use Timberstrand LSL if building another exterior door.
?
?? Dennis
|
rodsheridan
imran
David P. Best
David Luckensmeyer
Joe Jensen