Imran,?
Your point holds up? if properly sized for the workspace volume and particulate filtration, sure. Bigger cfms and smaller particulate is the goal however it's achieved.
If you are looking primarily for "removing the dust from the air", I would say it depends on which model has the most CFM capability in addition to the most static pressure.? This determines how well it will pull the dust away for things like your CNC machine and wide-belt sander.
Now, "keeping the dust out of the air" is a completely different topic.? If you have asthma or lungs that are sensitive to fine dust, then the baghouse filters are likely going to be poor solutions.? Nedermen doesn't publish what type of bag filters they use, but bags are usually specified at 30 micron or 5 micron.? Typical cartridge filters are around 2 micron.?? The HEPA style filters from Clearvue and Oneida cyclones are in the .2 to .3 micron range.
-Aaron
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It always amuses me that people who have no hesitation in spending 10's of thousands of dollars on a table saw and other workshop machinery always want a cheap answer to dust collection even though it is a primary health risk. I had a lady call me to order a cyclone as her husband kept he awake at night with his coughing and spluttering and she was sick and tired of it so she spent his money to solve the issue.?
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If you are looking primarily for "removing the dust from the air", I would say it depends on which model has the most CFM capability in addition to the most static pressure.? This determines how well it will pull the dust away for things like your CNC machine and wide-belt sander.
Now, "keeping the dust out of the air" is a completely different topic.? If you have asthma or lungs that are sensitive to fine dust, then the baghouse filters are likely going to be poor solutions.? Nedermen doesn't publish what type of bag filters they use, but bags are usually specified at 30 micron or 5 micron.? Typical cartridge filters are around 2 micron.?? The HEPA style filters from Clearvue and Oneida cyclones are in the .2 to .3 micron range.
-Aaron
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Brett,
Let¡¯s say there is no HVAC, what about running a good air cleaner vs sizing the dust collector beyond chip collection needs. Upsizing the dust collector seems like an expensive option to implement and run. Can similar or adequate results be achieved with an air cleaner?
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On May 6, 2024, at 4:55?PM, Brett Wissel via groups.io <Brettwissel@...> wrote: ? David Davies -?
My conclusions have led to: 1. Anything HEPA-labelled? will outfilter fine particulate better than non HEPA labelled. However it will have tradeoff of less capacity.? 2. I believe total area cleaning must consider the affected work area spatially, not just the tools. The bigger the collector to filter more air out of the space, the better. Most systems are drastically undersized to meet area spatial cleaning requirements. 3. Fresh air replacing dust-contaminated air can be easy to achieve and cheapest to implement, sometimes just temporarily to flush a volume. 4. When engineering controls won't get there, there's still PPE - a good dust mask and/or particulate-filtering respirator properly setup will get you through. 5. If you run a large HVAC unit to circulate air in the work space with good filtration continuously, you may be surprised how much better it cleans the air than?when cycling intermittently. But you have to stay on top of the filter maintenance. On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 1:12?PM David Davies via <myfinishingtouch= [email protected]> wrote: With all of the discussion about the Dylos sensor it has me wondering about which dust collector really does the best job at removing dust before it gets into the air.? It seems to me there are three main variants:
Cyclone - Oneida attached to a HEPA filter
Baghouse - Neederman style
Euro - Felder RL or AL-KO
Wide belt sanders and CNC machines seem to be the most stressing of machines on dust collectors.? I don't have a WBS sander yet but I foresee one in my future.? Ideally I'd like to keep the conditioned air in my shop if possible.
I'd love to get your opinions on this as I may need to consider getting a different dust collector next year.
Thanks
Dave Davies
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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David Davies -?
My conclusions have led to: 1. Anything HEPA-labelled? will outfilter fine particulate better than non HEPA labelled. However it will have tradeoff of less capacity.? 2. I believe total area cleaning must consider the affected work area spatially, not just the tools. The bigger the collector to filter more air out of the space, the better. Most systems are drastically undersized to meet area spatial cleaning requirements. 3. Fresh air replacing dust-contaminated air can be easy to achieve and cheapest to implement, sometimes just temporarily to flush a volume. 4. When engineering controls won't get there, there's still PPE - a good dust mask and/or particulate-filtering respirator properly setup will get you through. 5. If you run a large HVAC unit to circulate air in the work space with good filtration continuously, you may be surprised how much better it cleans the air than?when cycling intermittently. But you have to stay on top of the filter maintenance.
On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 1:12?PM David Davies via <myfinishingtouch= [email protected]> wrote: With all of the discussion about the Dylos sensor it has me wondering about which dust collector really does the best job at removing dust before it gets into the air.? It seems to me there are three main variants:
Cyclone - Oneida attached to a HEPA filter
Baghouse - Neederman style
Euro - Felder RL or AL-KO
Wide belt sanders and CNC machines seem to be the most stressing of machines on dust collectors.? I don't have a WBS sander yet but I foresee one in my future.? Ideally I'd like to keep the conditioned air in my shop if possible.
I'd love to get your opinions on this as I may need to consider getting a different dust collector next year.
Thanks
Dave Davies
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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It is interesting, Jim. Thanks for chiming in!
I thought there must be an assumption about material density baked into the Dylos machine. Maybe Dylos shares that assumption. It does not have to be exact, as wood density varies widely. Fir and pine will run around 33 pounds per cubic foot, while the Jatoba flooring I¡¯m using is about 57 pcf.
The OSHA standards do not take density into account either. Wood dust of all types is lumped together with all other not-otherwise-regulated material.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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With all of the discussion about the Dylos sensor it has me wondering about which dust collector really does the best job at removing dust before it gets into the air.? It seems to me there are three main variants:
Cyclone - Oneida attached to a HEPA filter
Baghouse - Neederman style
Euro - Felder RL or AL-KO
Wide belt sanders and CNC machines seem to be the most stressing of machines on dust collectors.? I don't have a WBS sander yet but I foresee one in my future.? Ideally I'd like to keep the conditioned air in my shop if possible.
I'd love to get your opinions on this as I may need to consider getting a different dust collector next year.
Thanks
Dave Davies
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The Dylos (and other real time meters) use a diode laser and detector to measure particulate passing frequency and then estimate?the size of the particles from the efficiency of the scattering (ie: how strong the detector reads the signal vs. the known energy in the laser). They then estimate a count/volume by knowing the flow rate of their fan and the time duration. It's really pretty slick and robust. They have done a really good job lowering the cost of sensors to something the average?person can buy. Original PDPA-type systems were $100k+ and newer are in the $5-10k so Dylos really has done something great.
The issue with equating that to mass/volume standards is there is no way of knowing the particulate mass because?you do not know the density (ie: Dylos has no idea what materials forming the airborne dust). This is actually a huge problem in industry as well-especially since various standards in the EU use particulate counts vs. mass densities. To accurately measure PM on a mass basis, the process involves using precision filters [and in some cases sized cyclones?with very particular flow rates] and then measuring?the captured particle weights after hours of exposure. Really quite complicated, and to be totally honest, fraught with error [though from a personal health standpoint the error always biases towards higher measured particle density than actual].?
Hopefully that was at least somewhat interesting to someone-I've been dealing with laser?measurements like these for quite a while now and it's quite a fascinating subject, especially when moved out of the lab and into real applications.
Jim
On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 1:41?PM John Hinman via <jhinman1911= [email protected]> wrote: Thanks for the information, fellows!
The ability of the DC1700-PM to report results that are comparable to published safety standards is very helpful. I had missed that when looking at Dylos products. I will probably get one soon.
The Dylos web site says the OSHA standards are based on particle mass per volume because of limitations on the testing equipment, and that particle counters are a better way of evaluating airborne particles. That may be true, but until we have acceptance standards for wood dust based on particle counts we have to fall back to the OSHA standards. It will be good to have both test methods available.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: BF7-41 (1999) Slider Adjustment
David and Imran, Thank you for your swift responses. It was much appreciated. That¡¯s was I suspected (and feared), but now have a good sense of the device needed to take those measurements. I just arranged a visit with a friend who is a marine machinist. I¡¯m sure we can whip something up.?
I¡¯m still a little confused about why the table was stiff with the new bearings without any adjustment to the ways. Maybe the diameter of the bearings is a few 10,000th¡± bigger than the original bearings? I assumed that it would be best to go ahead and replace all the bearings but perhaps I should have used the original.?
But, first things first ¡ª parallel the ways.?
Many thanks, _____________________________________________
P?aul Denison | Porchlight Woodworks Chimacum, WA
PorchlightWoodworks.com
On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 8:35 PM, David P. Best < dbestworkshop@...> wrote: Paul, I¡¯ve been there, done that. ?You are lucky that Felder had spare parts for a 25 year old machine.
Please review the attached document that describes the procedure I used to make bearing way adjustments on a sliding table. ?This was on an X-Roll table, but the same techniques apply to the older round-bearing sliders such as yours.
To be successful at re-aligning the bearing ways for the sliding table, you are going to need some kind of tool/jig/proceedure that measures the distance between the two bearing ways to a tight tolerance (like 0.001¡±). ?It needs to measure the distance between the V-section of the bearing ways from tangent-to-tangent, and then you can adjust the outside rail to get the two bearing ways coplanar to each other.
At the following link you will see a series of videos on how I went about it and a comparison of the alignment jig I came up with and the one Felder uses at the factory. ?
Attached is a PDF document describing this challenge and how I went about measuring and making adjustments. ?This is the jig I came up with using two precision roller pins and a digital caliper kept in alignment across the ways with a jig/fixture..
There is a thread in the archive that discusses all this in some detail, and another example of a jig that Jamie came up with to take the measurements.
This is the Felder factory jig:
This is the version that Jamie came up with that is close to the Felder variety:
Hope this helps.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
On May 3, 2024, at 5:44?PM, Paul.H.Denison via groups.io <Paul.H.Denison@...> wrote:
? Hi All, I¡¯m replacing the slider bearings on my BF-741 saw/shaper. (While another person was operating it the bearing car migrated so far forward that the plastic housing snagged and snapped ? )
A whole new set of bearings and housings arrived. I gave all the surfaces good clean with acetone and reinstalled the table with the new bearings. (But no grease) Without adjusting the anything the table was very stiff. I methodically adjusted the set screws that open up the rails on the track. However I¡¯m finding that if I loosen the rail assembly sufficiently for good slider movement, there is slop when I lift up on the end of the table. If I tighten just enough to get the slop out it is VERY stiff. I know the Felder techs use a special car with a caliper built in to adjust the rails. Has ?anyone out there solved this problem?
<078C3977-7769-443C-842E-A0F218105C92.jpg> <BF8ECE69-F094-465D-BB63-4A5F3B155F54.jpg>
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Thanks for the information, fellows!
The ability of the DC1700-PM to report results that are comparable to published safety standards is very helpful. I had missed that when looking at Dylos products. I will probably get one soon.
The Dylos web site says the OSHA standards are based on particle mass per volume because of limitations on the testing equipment, and that particle counters are a better way of evaluating airborne particles. That may be true, but until we have acceptance standards for wood dust based on particle counts we have to fall back to the OSHA standards. It will be good to have both test methods available.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Agreed with Rod and Stephen ¨C the Dylos air quality monitor has been a big help.? I have a DC1100-Pro, & use an Oneida DC and a Jet ceiling-mount air cleaner.? For my garage shop, this setup works well.
?
For those who haven¡¯t seen it, here is Bill Pentz¡¯ info regarding dust collection:
??? cheers . .
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Re: Stripped Bolt Removal
Hi,
Not sure what to suggest if it is completely stripped, but I just want to make sure you are trying to turn it clockwise (opposite from the usual loosening turn). Sorry if this is obvious.
My brand new saw actually shipped with an almost stripped hex nut a few months ago (I guess Felder striped it themselves during test runs). I find the implementation of this bolt utterly ineffective since it could certainly stick out a touch in order to get a different grip on it once it has stripped? Or some stronger material?
I am definitely hoping for someone with a good answer as to how this bolt can be removed, as mine is bound to be fully stripped after only a few more blade changes? ....
Cornelius Schultze-Kraft? Cyprus
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Dealing with gas turbine emissions on the regular, that doesn¡¯t surprise me at all. It¡¯s actually quite awful how high ambient outdoor PM2.5/10 levels are in some locations. It makes it really difficult to meet some newer EPA emissions regulations since even if you aren¡¯t adding anything to the air, it can often be worse than the requirement. Then there is a political component to comparing against ambient levels since most people don¡¯t want to know¡anyways.?
Very cool that your cyclone works so well! I¡¯m assuming you must have a 1 micron filter element on the exhaust??
Jim
On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 10:30?AM rodsheridan via <riderofgallifrey= [email protected]> wrote: It¡¯s interesting that when my cyclone in the shop is running for about 10 minutes the air particle content is about half of the house indoor air and one quarter of the outside air contents.
Buying a Delos was a help in the shop dust collection testing.
Regards, Rod
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CF741 with Grit Automation
After reading all the nice comments about the Grit Automation on the previous topic, I wish to take this route with my CF741. However, being a combination machine, I was wondering if anyone had installed Grit with the CF741. For instance, I guess it is easy to detect the the power is on using the toroid on the main power cable, but how do you detect which of the 3 motor is actually on?
I saw that Felder resells a device from Ziehl that detects current running through 1-8 machines (link at ) - I guess that this would be useless using Grit automation devices/sensors?
Finally, one last issue, my dust collector is a Harvey GyroAir 700. I usually leave the machine powered on and use the remote to start/stop it. Just powering up the machine won't turn the extractor on, you need to press a button or use the remote. Anyone has used the G700 with some form of automation? The larger models G800 and G1000 can come equipped with automated remote circuit, but they cost a lot more, and are quite a bit larger for my hobby shop. I could have gone with the RL140, but again, over twice the price of the G700. I like the G700, but when I do serious planing, the small capacity and the fact that it stops with an alarm way before it fills up the bags makes me stop working, open the dust container, reshuffle the chips and start again. Lots of handling, but again, just a hobby shop. I can't see any production shop using the G700 except for a table saw or a CNC...
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Hi Guys, The bolt on my K940 to replace my blade seems to be stripped. I¡¯ve tried using a different hex Allen wrench with no luck. How would you guys go about removing this? Thanks 
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You just call them and discuss it with them and they add the authorization to your account. ?
Thx,
Wade
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On May 6, 2024, at 8:57?AM, netanel.belgazal@... wrote:
?Another question. How can one get a permission from Felder to open the electric panel without voiding the warranty??
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Another question. How can one get a permission from Felder to open the electric panel without voiding the warranty??
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Paul,
a small question regarding the wiring of your 3P machines. You mention that you added a transformer. I was wondering why do you need a transformer and not just take 2 hot lines for 240V?
Did you also connect it to the e-stop of the machine?
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It¡¯s interesting that when my cyclone in the shop is running for about 10 minutes the air particle content is about half of the house indoor air and one quarter of the outside air contents.
Buying a Delos was a help in the shop dust collection testing.
Regards, Rod
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John,
DC1700-PM.?
For a significant health issue, the extra cost seemed warranted.
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On May 5, 2024, at 11:31?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
Steve, thank you for your thoughtful reply.
I did not realize that the Dylos monitors reported particulates as micrograms per cubic meter. I was under the impression they only tallied particulate counts by size category.
In the USA, OSHA regulates wood dust as ¡°Particulates Not Otherwise Regulated (PNOR)¡±. Total particulates are limited to 15 milligrams per cubic meter, while the respirable fraction is limited to 5 milligrams per cubic meter. The Permissible Exposure Limit is a Time Weighted Average, which I do not completely understand but takes into account the amount of time a person is exposed to the dust.
If Dylos reports mass of particulates per cubic meter, perhaps I can relate those readings to health and safety standards.
Which Dylos model do you use?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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imran
rodsheridan