Re: Hammer cross cut fence coupling set
Here is an alternative. I have a K3 with a 1250 wagon. I only need 45- and 90 degrees for the crosscut fence. Nothing beats an accurately positioned stop. The original crosscut fence stop was replaced with an updated version ...  And the original stop now used for a 45-degree mitre ...  When not in use it is out of the way ...  Regards from Perth Derek
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Re: Update on Martin T32 Jointer/Planer
On the TP300, which should be extremely similar to the T32, it is only when the planer table is lowered to over 5.5 inches or so that the part as shown in the yellow area of the attached photo will not hit the planer table as you lower the flip up jointer tables. ?A nice feature for sure to be able to not have to lower the planer table to use it as a jointer.
As for high end JPs....?
.... the most interesting to me is the Hofmann (see links). ?I do not believe it is UL listed and I do not think one has never been sold in the United States (I could be mistaken). ?I have never seen one. ?However, interesting that it seems you can go from jointer to planer without raising the table.
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My Tersa is bigger than your Tersa.
David Best - via mobile phone
David Best - via mobile phone
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Don't think it's a push at best.? From a total cost perspective it could be a clear winner.? It could also be a clear loser.? Like you said, it depends on the circumstances.? Which,? in this case is lots of teak with frequent knife changes.
Plenty of large scale facilities using plain straight knives too.? What's your point ?
Sam's piece / opinion doesn't really re-enforce your position.? He hedges by saying "probably" for each type of head and and shop.? Plus he doesn't broach the cost of either head, ever.? So it's really impossible to use his musings in a discussion on? "which is cheaper". ??
Furthermore - I? NEVER said segments only belong in a garage shop - nor is it my opinion.? Let's look at what I actually said:
" So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or
shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper
because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor
of segments adds to the equation."
I said segments will be CHEAPER for the garage shop because they are less likely to change blades and approach the cost savings in labor that Tersa affords.?? That's a big difference from saying it only belongs in a garage shop.? HUGE.?
It's a pretty simple math problem.?? The more you change blades and the higher your labor costs are , the cheaper Tersa becomes.? The less you change blades and the cheaper your labor is , the cheaper a Segment is.? This is true whether you're in a garage in rural Mississippi or a state of the art factory in California.
Another way to look at it to ask yourself why production lines of all types want to automate and replace humans with machines pretty much everywhere they can ?? Not because it's cool, but because it's cheaper at the end of the day.
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 12:03:53 PM EDT, Andy <andy.raynor08@...> wrote:
I didn¡¯t ¡°come around¡± to your line of thinking. I challenged your assertion that Tersa is less expensive. You¡¯ve only gone ahead and proven that it¡¯s probably a push, from a cost perspective, unless under very specific?circumstances.
Also there are plenty of large scale production facilities that use segmented heads.?
Sam Blasco, noted Tersa advocate seems to take the exact opposite position as you. In the first paragraph of this article, he suggested that in fact Tersa belongs in an artisan shop, whereas Xylent belongs in production.?
He goes on to gush about Tersa and all of its benefits, however the idea the segmented cutter heads belong in the garage only is just your opinion and one that even the self proclaimed Tersa aficionado Sam Blasco doesn¡¯t share.?
" Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are
great. I just don¡¯t think one is more cost effective than the other. I
can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker
wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
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I didn¡¯t ¡°come around¡± to your line of thinking. I challenged your assertion that Tersa is less expensive. You¡¯ve only gone ahead and proven that it¡¯s probably a push, from a cost perspective, unless under very specific?circumstances.
Also there are plenty of large scale production facilities that use segmented heads.?
Sam Blasco, noted Tersa advocate seems to take the exact opposite position as you. In the first paragraph of this article, he suggested that in fact Tersa belongs in an artisan shop, whereas Xylent belongs in production.?
He goes on to gush about Tersa and all of its benefits, however the idea the segmented cutter heads belong in the garage only is just your opinion and one that even the self proclaimed Tersa aficionado Sam Blasco doesn¡¯t share.?
" Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are
great. I just don¡¯t think one is more cost effective than the other. I
can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker
wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
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Oh- I¡¯m Thomas
My shop started out with doing shipwrights/yacht carpentry I have gradually expanded into multiple capacities including stainless steel and aluminum fabrication, tig welding, machining etc.
I came to setup the shop after a long stint of carpentry and cabinet building for homes and commercial businesses.
This injury on the table saw last week has me once again bringing in new equipment and reconfiguring the shop to accommodate it.
My shop is modest in size but capable.
This Felder gear I am bringing in will make it more so.
So hello all.
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Used to.??? Sold it on.
Am not running a production environment anymore either.? My current jointers & planers have straight knives, dispoz-a-blade and a Byrd.
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 11:33:48 AM EDT, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
I¡¯m curious David, do you own a Tersa equipped machine?
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
"
Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are great. I just don¡¯t think one is more cost effective than the other. I can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments
is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're
losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber;
segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's
of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
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I¡¯m curious David, do you own a Tersa equipped machine?
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
"
Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are great. I just don¡¯t think one is more cost effective than the other. I can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments
is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're
losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber;
segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's
of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
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You can shift Tersa knives a slight fraction if chipped and keep from a complete swap.? I have at least 1/4" leeway on my head and if you buy the knives a tad shorter you can move them a fair amount.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
"
Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are great. I just don¡¯t think one is more cost effective than the other. I can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments
is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're
losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber;
segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's
of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
|
" Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are
great. I just don¡¯t think one is more cost effective than the other. I
can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker
wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
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And I will condition my experience.
I mill teak almost exclusively which while abrasive and hard on tooling is a freebie for tear out and planes without drama.
I have the ultra sharp HSS blade sets for when I need them but honestly I rarely do.
Carbide stays on the head pretty much all the time
Between the lathe and mills my shop is full of index tooling but when I saw the Byrd heads come out I knew I would never have one in the shop.
Far too much fiddling when a Tersa head just works (for me..).
The Felder head with fewer cutters would probably serve.
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"One Tersa carbide head is retail at 20-150$+. For my planer it¡¯s 150$.? It takes a few minutes to turn the segmented heads. You get 4 turns before the head is worn.? You turn one carbide silent power segment, and while it may take longer. You have 4x the cutting life. Time is money yes, a silent power cutter head potentially saves 4x Tersa changes or in my case 450$ per full blade change."
?????????????????????????????????????? * * * * *
You're oversimplifying,? and erroneously calculating the time and costs.
First -? tersa knives have two sides. so you get two turns before it's ready for the trash.
2nd -? I'll bet you cannot turn (and torque !) an entire 12" + cutterhead's worth of segments in a few minutes.? No way.? Maybe an hour if you're real efficient.??? 5 min. tops on 4 tersa knives and you don't need to worry if your torque wrench is still calibrated. And it the same whether you have a 6" knife or 20" knife.
Third,? you haven't figured the cost of a full set of segments in cost per rotation.?? How much is a set ?? Divide by four for its cost of rotation in your scenario. ? ? And,? as hinted above - your Tersa cost per rotation is $225 - NOT $450 !
While you probably don't have a burdened labor cost of $225/hr either;? I'll bet it's half that at least. So now, that one hour of edge changing time starts to add up. Pretty sure when you calculate your SP segment cost per side change it's in the $75 range.? Approx 1/3 a Tersa cost.? Add in your +$125 labor cost per edge change and it's starts to get real close in cost per edge change.?? And that's assuming you get it all done in an hour.?
While I agree that a segmented head is the cheaper alternative for those hobbyist that don't change knives often - In a production environment Tersa is almost certainly the winner.? If you change your knives every quarter - Tersa has you at the end of the year.? Change them every month and it's not even close regardless of you exact labor cost.?
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To follow up on Jason Holtz's comment,?
Depending on the kind of wood you're processing, it has been my experience that rotating the carbide elements on a helical cutter is not as simple as what's shown in the promotional videos. In my experience, processing resinous woods results in a slight accumulation of resin or schmutz on the underside of the cutter. If the cutter is simply rotated, then that resin will interfere with the precision seating necessary, resulting in lines or grooves in the wood.?
Having experienced the above issue several times, my process is now to completely back out the screw, remove the carbide cutter, clean the cutter as well as the cutter head, then carefully reinstall, making sure the cutter seats properly. This process may only occur a couple times/year (if even that), but when it happens it's a laborious, time-consuming task. As I'm approaching some more production-oriented projects, I'm giving TERSA a closer look for my next machine, as I'm struggling to find time to rotate the cutters on my Silent Power head. Not much time during the week, and I have other projects I'd rather be working on during my weekends....
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Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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I could make a go of it with a limited the Felder head but the Tersa head is blinding fast- like one minute to change out the blades.
As I said even the modest MiniMax has served well for me.
Time is important but more so simple ease.
I want the machines cutting wood and everything that keeps me in work flow is good.
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Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are great. I just don¡¯t think one is more cost effective than the other. I can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker wholesale swap.?
On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 10:01 AM Jason Holtz < jholtzy@...> wrote: Andy Swapping knives in a Tersa head is a few minute operation vs. at least an hour plus rotating all the knives on a spiral head. I've heard of people with Tersa having a fresh set they'll just install for a final pass and then put the duller workhorses back in. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
612 432-2765
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Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
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Andy Swapping knives in a Tersa head is a few minute operation vs. at least an hour plus rotating all the knives on a spiral head. I've heard of people with Tersa having a fresh set they'll just install for a final pass and then put the duller workhorses back in. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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One Tersa carbide head is retail at 20-150$+. For my planer it¡¯s 150$.?
It takes a few minutes to turn the segmented heads. You get 4 turns before the head is worn.?
You turn one carbide silent power segment, and while it may take longer. You have 4x the cutting life.
Time is money yes, a silent power cutter head potentially saves 4x Tersa changes or in my case 450$ per full blade change.?
I don¡¯t make 450$ per hour. ?
"Why would tersa be a better option vs Felder silent power?? With a carbide cutter you can just rotate the cutter¡.."
Because most people don't value their time at $0 / hr.
By the time you've rotated 2-3 segmented cutters and properly torqued them, the Tersa owner has knocked down a couple of wedges and replaced all 3 or 4 blades on his cutter head and is back to planing.?? So, the more often you need a new cutting edge,? the Tersa user banks time savings at an exponential rate.
I have not conducted a study or seen any data on whether a Tersa knife edge lasts longer than a segmented cutter edge or vice versa? - so I have to hedge my over all cost benefit judgement pending solid data.
D
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"Why would tersa be a better option vs Felder silent power?? With a carbide cutter you can just rotate the cutter¡.."
Because most people don't value their time at $0 / hr.
By the time you've rotated 2-3 segmented cutters and properly torqued them, the Tersa owner has knocked down a couple of wedges and replaced all 3 or 4 blades on his cutter head and is back to planing.?? So, the more often you need a new cutting edge,? the Tersa user banks time savings at an exponential rate.
I have not conducted a study or seen any data on whether a Tersa knife edge lasts longer than a segmented cutter edge or vice versa? - so I have to hedge my over all cost benefit judgement pending solid data.
D
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Andy,
¡possibly because it may be (I am guessing here) easier to install three indexed knives than to rotate 96 cutters?
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Why would tersa be a better option vs Felder silent power?? With a carbide cutter you can just rotate the cutter¡..?
trboat/ to answer you¡¯re real question¡¡¡¡¡..
No , I don¡¯t think out of hand one can say there is a clear leader in combo machines.? Both makers have fine offerings with strengths and weaknesses.?
I believe TERSA is still available on both makes too.? So is a spiral cutter head with carbide segments.? I cannot say which would be better for teak processing - but I suspect the Tersa wins the more frequently you change cutters.?
D Sent from?iPhone On May 15, 2023, at 7:19 AM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Ah- sorry.
I will rein in my tendency to edit so as to provide as much accuracy as possible.
Once and done I promise.
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David P. Best
David Luckensmeyer
Tom Gensmer
Jason Holtz