Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
Great post and that’s a great tip to split the machines.
Connector blocks can work loose with vibration. ?That then causes a higher resistance connection which, with all that current flowing through, will get very hot and ultimately do what yours has done.
Many, many, many years ago, I used to work for the BBC on Outside Broadcasts (OB’s). ?One time, the mains power panel had the same problem due to those vehicles pounding up and down the motorways. ?It became SOP to periodically go inside the panel and tighten up the blocks.
Roger
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I know this is an old thread but I accessed it about ten times when trying to sort out why my P/J motor would not start.
I also went through the rigmarole of trying to isolate the location of what I presumed was an electrical problem and arrived at the point where I found continuity on one of the motor windings (the contacts shown on one of the images posted by Annu) was faulty, pointing to the problem being located in the motor.
In order to access the motor, one either has to resort to the pallet jack method or as my smart electrician mate advised, simply unbolt the P/J module from the main body of the C3-31. ?As frightening and untenable as this seems, it was a breeze. ?I think there were nine bolts holding the two modules together and once removed -- accessed through the shaper door -- the two were separated and it was then simply a matter of tilting the module up on one end and the motor could be accessed.
Fortunately, the problem on my machine was in the connection box on the motor and once it was opened, the smell alone indicated a major mischief had occurred with the wires being fried in the connector block within which was partially melted and several of the wires welded together. The fix was achieved by simply replacing the connector block with a new one, reinserting the freshened wires and firing it up. ?Happy days!
Reconnecting the P/J module to the main body was a cinch and took all of about 30 mins.
Back to normal now but with the nagging, unanswered question -- what caused it to misbehave in the first place?
Incidentally, my local Felder man told me he doubted there was anew motor available in Australia and one would either need to be airfreighted from Austria or sent in a container (three months) or a possible more wallet friendly option would be to have the motor rewired. ?Fortunately, I did not need to go down that path.
Brian
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Sorry to revive an old thread but did you ever resolve this? ?My C3-41 arrived with a factory standard spring joint I’d like to eliminate.?
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
John,?
Paying for any higher end tool requires a different philosophy than the big-box retail?tool buyers.?
Paying for safety gear is just another philosophical choice - long-term cost/risk mitigation savings vs.? short-term profit margin increases...if you are just referring to economics and not moral or ethical reasons for the decision.
My bet is that these kinds of safety advancements being pioneered will become regulatory mandates or insurance underwriting mandates. It will push the industry forward with a higher level of safety, while making all new equipment more expensive with?the required safety features. Society will be better for it because long term medical costs and disability will be reduced by more, just by the measure of economics and not including considerations for morality/ethics. It will never affect the renegades so long as they can avoid the added costs, but those guys will diminish by attrition. I give it it 20 years.?
On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 7:21?AM Mike Leiferman < leiferman@...> wrote: I bought a 64 Chevelle from the original owner in the late 90”s.? She had the original window sticker. ?only bought ?two options: ?powerglide automatic and seat belts.? Think it had 40k miles.? Mostly to church and the grocery store. On Feb 28, 2023, at 6:08 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
?A commercial shop with employees might very well be able to justify this type of saw given the decrease in insurance rates. One lost finger or hand could easily cost hundreds of thousands in claims.
As for volume, it’s like anything else, quote 20 pieces vs. 100 pieces vs. 1000 pieces and the whole adoption of the technology becomes infinitely more affordable. Will it ever trickle down to all saws, I doubt it, but then some folks never thought seat belts and airbags would be in all cars either. It will most likely depend upon how many lawsuits come along as to how quick the safety approach wins out.
$75k is a lot of money. I’m curious - how many of the people in this group who make a living in woodworking can justify that kind of outlay?
As far as volume goes, these features have to come on mass-market machines in order to get volume. Even the Hammer brand probably does not have enough volume to justify developing a less costly but still reliable version.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: Made some sawdust yesterday.
Marty, You are a true Craftsman my friend. Beautiful!
Bill Bélanger
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Yes, John, the chair in the background is the second chair I made 10 years ago for my mom.? I brought it over to use as a guide because it's easy for me to get confused when I'm shaping the pieces.
The chair is made with walnut - mostly from the root ball, and leopard wood in the seat and headrest.? Walnut was attached to the perimeter of the top of the seat with leopardwood underneath it.? The headrest is made in 4 pcs and the grain runs vertically in an attempt to make the seat appear to flow into the headrest.
This is the third chair I've made using the same pattern.? It is more challenging that the previous builds because I'm using wood from the root ball.? The wood moves a lot after it's cut to relieve internal stresses.? The wood movement caused the headrest of this chair to be? 2" narrower than the other chairs and the back legs rotated such that the headrest wasn't coplanar with the back legs.?
Here's a pic of the first chair which was made for my daughter as a gift for her first born?in 2012.? It's also made with walnut and leopardwood.
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Re: Made some sawdust yesterday.
Yes, John, the chair in the background is the second chair I made 10 years ago for my mom.? I brought it over to use as a guide because it's easy for me to get confused when I'm shaping the pieces.
The chair is made with walnut - mostly from the root ball, and leopard wood in the seat and headrest.? Walnut was attached to the perimeter of the top of the seat with leopardwood underneath it.? The headrest is made in 4 pcs and the grain runs vertically in an attempt to make the seat appear to flow into the headrest.
This is the third chair I've made using the same pattern.? It is more challenging that the previous builds because I'm using wood from the root ball.? The wood moves a lot after it's cut to relieve internal stresses.? The wood movement caused the headrest of this chair to be? 2" narrower than the other chairs and the back legs rotated such that the headrest wasn't coplanar with the back legs.?
Here's a pic of the first chair which was made for my daughter as a gift for her first born?in 2012.? It's also made with walnut and leopardwood.
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
I bought a 64 Chevelle from the original owner in the late 90”s. ?She had the original window sticker. ?only bought ?two options: ?powerglide automatic and seat belts. ?Think it had 40k miles. ?Mostly to church and the grocery store.
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 6:08 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
? A commercial shop with employees might very well be able to justify this type of saw given the decrease in insurance rates. One lost finger or hand could easily cost hundreds of thousands in claims.
As for volume, it’s like anything else, quote 20 pieces vs. 100 pieces vs. 1000 pieces and the whole adoption of the technology becomes infinitely more affordable. Will it ever trickle down to all saws, I doubt it, but then some folks never thought seat belts and airbags would be in all cars either. It will most likely depend upon how many lawsuits come along as to how quick the safety approach wins out.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
On Feb 28, 2023, at 4:59 PM, John Hinman <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
$75k is a lot of money. I’m curious - how many of the people in this group who make a living in woodworking can justify that kind of outlay?
As far as volume goes, these features have to come on mass-market machines in order to get volume. Even the Hammer brand probably does not have enough volume to justify developing a less costly but still reliable version.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Re: Hammer C-31 Planer Issue - Motor Triping
I know this is an old thread but I accessed it about ten times when trying to sort out why my P/J motor would not start.
I also went through the rigmarole of trying to isolate the location of what I presumed was an electrical problem and arrived at the point where I found continuity on one of the motor windings (the contacts shown on one of the images posted by Annu) was faulty, pointing to the problem being located in the motor.
In order to access the motor, one either has to resort to the pallet jack method or as my smart electrician mate advised, simply unbolt the P/J module from the main body of the C3-31. ?As frightening and untenable as this seems, it was a breeze. ?I think there were nine bolts holding the two modules together and once removed -- accessed through the shaper door -- the two were separated and it was then simply a matter of tilting the module up on one end and the motor could be accessed.
Fortunately, the problem on my machine was in the connection box on the motor and once it was opened, the smell alone indicated a major mischief had occurred with the wires being fried in the connector block within which was partially melted and several of the wires welded together. The fix was achieved by simply replacing the connector block with a new one, reinserting the freshened wires and firing it up. ?Happy days!
Reconnecting the P/J module to the main body was a cinch and took all of about 30 mins.
Back to normal now but with the nagging, unanswered question -- what caused it to misbehave in the first place?
Incidentally, my local Felder man told me he doubted there was anew motor available in Australia and one would either need to be airfreighted from Austria or sent in a container (three months) or a possible more wallet friendly option would be to have the motor rewired. ?Fortunately, I did not need to go down that path.
Brian
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
Great video, thanks Wade for mentioning it.
The feature I liked most about the new Altendorf saws was the fence in the middle of the swing arm/table.? Lifting the Felder fence and repositioning it is something I like to avoid, but this idea seems pretty cool.? The drop down safety feature is great and although it should help lowering insurance premiums, just being able to get back to work in 10 seconds without any blood seems like a huge benefit.?
Cheers
David
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
I couldn't get a specific answer to that question, but an Elmo without it was $50-60k. It is a big ticket accessory at the?moment. I wonder if the? European market will require it on all new saws at some point? It seems like a great system, but my sliders with pneumatic clamps, riving knives and overarm guards are very safe machines. My hand is rarely anywhere near the blade unless I am changing it. I cannot justify one of these as a one man show.?
I have a Sawstop also, and find it to be better build quality than any of the cabinet saws it competes with.? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
I was told the Felder PCS was about a 9kUSD upgrade when I ordered my stuff a year ago, provided it was available on the model ordered. ? I am mostly focused on only sending material I want cut through these machines, however elusive this is.? And without any ejection, backlash or other inertial consequence unintended. ? These are great advances, but not affordable to me.? Of course I have seen welders turn an empty 55 gallon drum over to stand on while reaching an a-frame? overhead and watched them launched 20 feet in the air when the sparks went under the bottom of and ignited the now gas filled bomb they stood on and guys with loose shirt sleeves get pulled into 90 rpm 800mm 100,000 hp shaft to no good end with safeguards all around. ? I do not know what this means to me.? I just finished building a new bicycle which I am sure in the hilly woods here in WV will kill me for certain because drivers only move into their own lane AFTER they crest the blind hill because they only look for other pickup trucks (which are high).? And motorcycle riding here is a mix of euphoria and terror for the same reasons.? Great roads, horrid drivers.? Somewhat like flying aerobatics, but cheaper. ? I have neighbors, mostly female, who seem to believe that battery powered chain saws are safer than their gas powered forbears, and therefore do not require any safety measures, because they are so cute…? I give gloves, goggles, etc. away and show how these chains can react in impromptu classes.? But I am not getting ahead of this curve. ? I think I will go back to growing trees into the shape I want furniture and then euthanize them, saving my risk taking to being in motion. But maybe not. ? Erik ?
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From: John HinmanSent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 21:59 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [FOG] Altendorf, The inventor of the slider ? Jacques,
$10,000 for effective safety industrial equipment is a bargain, considering the damage a table saw can do to a person. The cost impact on a business is huge, too. The change in focus on safety in the last 100 years has been tremendous. Less than 100 years ago the question on a major construction project was not whether someone would die on the job, but instead the question was how many would die. Sure glad that has changed!
My wondering about the cost of the tool was more about the other features - all of the automation, power sliders, and things like vacuum clamps and air beds. Those things have to add a lot to the cost. Under what conditions do they pay off?
My question is really one of curiosity. I have no experience in production woodworking or factories, but it is fascinating to read discussions by some of the professionals that participate here.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Made some sawdust yesterday.
Nice chair Marty. For some reason I did not get the email msg. Only found out because Jonathan replied so I went to the web interface to see it.
Is the grain running vertical on the top piece of the back? Also looks like that it may be different species of wood than the frame. Can’t wait to see the finished product.
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 10:03 PM, John Hinman <jhinman1911@...> wrote: ?Looks like quite a project! Is that a completed chair in the background of the first photo?
Please show us the chair when you get it finished!
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Made some sawdust yesterday.
Looks like quite a project! Is that a completed chair in the background of the first photo?
Please show us the chair when you get it finished!
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
Jacques,
$10,000 for effective safety industrial equipment is a bargain, considering the damage a table saw can do to a person. The cost impact on a business is huge, too. The change in focus on safety in the last 100 years has been tremendous. Less than 100 years ago the question on a major construction project was not whether someone would die on the job, but instead the question was how many would die. Sure glad that has changed!
My wondering about the cost of the tool was more about the other features - all of the automation, power sliders, and things like vacuum clamps and air beds. Those things have to add a lot to the cost. Under what conditions do they pay off?
My question is really one of curiosity. I have no experience in production woodworking or factories, but it is fascinating to read discussions by some of the professionals that participate here.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
John,
I read somewhere that the Felder technology (PCS) added about 10K $ to the cost of the machine. Assuming this is the right ? order of magnitude ? it becomes easier to see how this extra cost can be offset by savings in insurance premiums (and human trauma associated with severe accidents). In other words, the savings in insurance premiums does not automatically equal the full cost of the equipment but rather the marginal portion pertaining to the safety system. One still has to deal with the cash flow/investment size of the equation though.
Jacques
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
The accessories really add up, don’t they!
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
John Hinman,
I’ve spent nearly a third of that for my K700S, along with all my current accessories, this was a huge expense for me and my “woodworking” salary. ?But I’m enjoying the investment! ? Now of course my saw has no “anti-wiener cut off” thingamajig installed on it, so I just relay on being damn careful! ???? ?I can still do math with all ten of my fingers! ??. And in about 90 days I’ll be even safer, Mac’s clamps are coming! ???????
Thx,
Wade
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 3:59 PM, John Hinman <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
?$75k is a lot of money. I’m curious - how many of the people in this group who make a living in woodworking can justify that kind of outlay?
As far as volume goes, these features have to come on mass-market machines in order to get volume. Even the Hammer brand probably does not have enough volume to justify developing a less costly but still reliable version.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
Jason, did the Stiles rep tell you how much the hand saver adds to the cost of the machine?
I’m just curious, as I am not in the market for a $75,000 saw. I like the idea of the safety feature, but have never been impressed with the overall quality of SawStop saws.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
A commercial shop with employees might very well be able to justify this type of saw given the decrease in insurance rates. One lost finger or hand could easily cost hundreds of thousands in claims.
As for volume, it’s like anything else, quote 20 pieces vs. 100 pieces vs. 1000 pieces and the whole adoption of the technology becomes infinitely more affordable. Will it ever trickle down to all saws, I doubt it, but then some folks never thought seat belts and airbags would be in all cars either. It will most likely depend upon how many lawsuits come along as to how quick the safety approach wins out.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 4:59 PM, John Hinman <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
$75k is a lot of money. I’m curious - how many of the people in this group who make a living in woodworking can justify that kind of outlay?
As far as volume goes, these features have to come on mass-market machines in order to get volume. Even the Hammer brand probably does not have enough volume to justify developing a less costly but still reliable version.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
$75k is a lot of money. I’m curious - how many of the people in this group who make a living in woodworking can justify that kind of outlay?
As far as volume goes, these features have to come on mass-market machines in order to get volume. Even the Hammer brand probably does not have enough volume to justify developing a less costly but still reliable version.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
That’s the same as Felder, only on the top of the line machine at this time. It is going to take some volume sales to bring the prices down to where they can offer this sort of thing on the “less than top of the line” saws.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 4:19 PM, Jason Holtz <jholtzy@...> wrote:
My local Stiles rep stopped by today. The hand saver option is only available on the F45 Elmo controller equipped saw. Top of the line, near $75k. Gulp. They do hope to bring it down the line including the much more approachable F25 series saw.? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Bill Belanger
marty shultz
Jason Holtz
imran