Details of adding FIAMA DRO to Felder K975 Rip Fence
I shared a short video of this earlier. Here are the "how to" details.
Imran Malik
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Re: Opinions on Alpine Workshop?
PK
?
?Do the Alpine Workshop before you buy shaper tooling (And because it was amazing).? I?thought?I knew what I needed.? I was wrong!
?
Bon May
?
My wife found out about the Alpine workshops and bought me the Advanced Jointery class for Christmas last year, and I was looking forward to it but had no idea how it would change my life.
Joe as teacher and Greg as sponsor were a fantastic team. As we got into set-up, then operation of machines, I started to really grasp what the buzz about the classes was all about. I found out how valuable having someone with that much experience truly was. It opened up my eyes to techniques and process and operations that I would never have known that have completely changed my woodworking and made it much more than I ever imagined.
But along with the instructions was the hands on operation of the machines at the class- top of the line newer machines with digital displays, well set up, and with Mac's clamps. having the ability to go back to a machine and have repeatability and accuracy and do it quickly was eye opening for me. And with the addition of the Mac clamps, which I thought would be nice before using them but after using them I see they are something that might be the biggest safety upgrade in my shop, After using them I see the cost versus benefit to me makes them a very cheap purchase... plus they open up more capabilities on your machines and give you a greater comfort level and give you more confidence in what you can do.
But as I said, this was after I bought my shaper. If I had went to the class before I bought my shaper I would have ordered some different things and maybe even a different model. And after seeing what the better machines offered as far as more time working and a higher degree of accuracy and safety I have started the transition to new machines and away from the old ones. Without the class I never would have seen these things.
So my recommendation to you is before you buy any machine based on others thoughts, make the decision to go to the Alpine workshop, get your hands on good machines with the good instruction the class gives you, and then think about what you would like having been armed with some options and experience to base your decision from.
?
This is where the Alpine class might be of great help to you. Joe has a newish Martin slider, well equipped, and an older Martin slider that is very well restored. Being an old machine guy I thought that would be the saw I preferred, but after using the big slider with the jigs and clamps and the instruction on them, I saw how much better the new and modern slider was, mainly from it was right and tight in it's operation but also with the addition of the clamps and Fritz and Franz jigs. I did things and felt safe doing them that I would have never tackled at my shop the way my saw was set up.
It was the same with his shapers. Three newish ones and one restored. The restored one is really nice and very attractive, but as far as set-up and operation I much preferred the newer ones. I did not see that coming.
I would still get a jointer and planer to begin with, but if you go see the capability of a well equipped slider versus a cabinet saw or track saws, you will have a much better perspective to go forward from.
Tom Gensmer
?
The appeal of the Alpine classes is that they're only 4 days and very targeted, so it's easier for me to step away for a week here- and there- to advance my career.
?
Habacomike
?
Just got back from the Alpine Workshops Advanced Joinery class — what a good investment of time! ?As a result, I’m looking to upgrade my methods of work.?
?
Eric Janson
?
Yes, it's well worth it. Ultimate Joe is the perfect instructor- knowledgeable, tireless and patient. The shop has everything you can think of, plus a bit more that you couldn't think of. Greg G is there to lend expert support,?and no doubt you'll want?to take?advantage of?the?student discount on some Rangate cutters. Ouray is a destination in its own right, with raw beauty, great hiking and excellent restaurants, plus interesting sites nearby for partners who come along for the ride.
Be advised, if you are coming by car from the east, that Route 50 closes weekdays for many hours per day for canyon construction. The detour on Rte 92 through Hotchkiss adds about 1h20m but offers some spectacular scenery along the way.
BTW, Joe is also a Martin rep and can source Aigner fences, too.? You and your money will soon be parted - but you'll be happy about it ;-)
Cheers and good luck on the course
?
Glen Christensen
?
Another great Resource is the Alpine Work Shop. Joe Cahoon give a great class on woodworking joinery which is for the most part all shaper time. Not only does he teach you how to use it conventionally, He shows how to to clime cut, plunging cutting, radius shaping? among other stuff I cant remember. a 4 day class worth every penny and they are fun people. i am setting up to go back and do the advance joinery class again this year now that the class will make more sense to me now and going forward with the lift and slide and the euro window classes.I recommend that if you need a good breaking to what a shaper is really capable to do, take the first class....however don't do it this year as I am going and want the class size small. Lol
?
Alex Bowlds
?
I was completely new to the use of the shaper. ?I too didn’t have a clue how to get started. ?I learned of the Alpine Technical Workshops that are taught by Joe Calhoun in Ouray Colorado. ?Greg Godbout of Rangate facilitates the logistics for these classes. ?While attending the first class, I worked with Greg to get a starter set of shaper tools. ?Since then, I have been adding to my set as I determine my needs. ?I was told that the shaper is one machine that will ultimately have more expense in tooling than the machine. ?I’ve got a good start on that.
?
I would recommend you consider taking one or more of the Alpine classes. ?They focus on the SAFE use of the shaper. ?While there, you will get ample opportunity to discuss your tooling needs with Greg, Joe, and the other students. ?Plus, Greg provides a great discount on tooling to Alpine attendees. ?And the bonus is you get to learn how to keep all your digits while using the shaper. ?The classes aren’t cheap, in my opinion, they are worth every penny. ?Class size is limited to six or less.?
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Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
Thanks to everyone for the replies! At this stage, I'm definitely hoping for best value. Maybe years down the road I can gather the funding for the best of the best. I'm going to see if I can afford the upgrade to the RL 200 which looks like it could handle some adequate sanding options, and has the same footprint as the 160. Unfortunately the RL250 and up are not going to work in my shop.
Again, I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge and experience here and the willingness to share it.?
Kyle?
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Re: Opinions on Alpine Workshop?
Brandon,
As one of the first three students to attend the Alpine class I can say that meeting Ultimate Joe Calhoon and seeing/using his shop was a huge learning opportunity. ?Meeting Greg for the first time in person after talking to him on the phone for a few years was fantastic too as he was integral to building my door and window shop. ?Greg planned trips to Europe each year soon after the classes started to tour door and window shops and end up at either the LIGNA or Fensterbau conventions. ?Making these trips was a fantastic learning experience and quite a lot of fun. ?
I can’t recommend the Alpine classes enough. ?I would like to go back even though I sold my shop two years ago. ??
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 5, 2022, at 4:03 PM, Brandon Nickel <brandon.nickel@...> wrote:
I am considering joining the Alpine Workshop Advanced Joinery class in April. I'd like to know if you guys think this will be a worthwhile investment of time. If you've been, would you recommend it?
About me: I'm a hobbyist that has previously built a house worth of cabinetry including bathroom vanities and kitchen cabinets. To do so I used a Sawstop ICS and a home-built router table/lift. However, last summer I invested in a Felder KF700S with the Aigner shaper fence and a power feeder. Next summer I'm going to start building another kitchen project. I'd like to use the shaper and saw to the best of its capabilities and I'm sure I've got a lot to learn. After that there's a long list of other furniture projects to dig into.
I've bought David's Survival Guide and will spend the time to dial the saw in before I start the project.?
So, what input do you have for me? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the benefits of the class. I'm not going to make this a business, so I want to ensure that I'm using my time and money wisely.
|
Re: Opinions on Alpine Workshop?
I attended last year and found it very useful and fun … met some nice folks and learned a number of things about using various tools - focused on the shaper but Joe had us using a number of tools.? I think it was useful and enjoyable - we did things that i had not considered doing like curved molding etc.? Joe, Steve and Greg all answered questions and chatted for the entire time so there is really no topic off limits -
I am considering joining the Alpine Workshop Advanced Joinery class in April. I'd like to know if you guys think this will be a worthwhile investment of time. If you've been, would you recommend it?
About me: I'm a hobbyist that has previously built a house worth of cabinetry including bathroom vanities and kitchen cabinets. To do so I used a Sawstop ICS and a home-built router table/lift. However, last summer I invested in a Felder KF700S with the Aigner shaper fence and a power feeder. Next summer I'm going to start building another kitchen project. I'd like to use the shaper and saw to the best of its capabilities and I'm sure I've got a lot to learn. After that there's a long list of other furniture projects to dig into.
I've bought David's Survival Guide and will spend the time to dial the saw in before I start the project.?
So, what input do you have for me? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the benefits of the class. I'm not going to make this a business, so I want to ensure that I'm using my time and money wisely.
--
--
Michael Marsico
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Opinions on Alpine Workshop?
I am considering joining the Alpine Workshop Advanced Joinery class in April. I'd like to know if you guys think this will be a worthwhile investment of time. If you've been, would you recommend it?
About me: I'm a hobbyist that has previously built a house worth of cabinetry including bathroom vanities and kitchen cabinets. To do so I used a Sawstop ICS and a home-built router table/lift. However, last summer I invested in a Felder KF700S with the Aigner shaper fence and a power feeder. Next summer I'm going to start building another kitchen project. I'd like to use the shaper and saw to the best of its capabilities and I'm sure I've got a lot to learn. After that there's a long list of other furniture projects to dig into.
I've bought David's Survival Guide and will spend the time to dial the saw in before I start the project.?
So, what input do you have for me? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the benefits of the class. I'm not going to make this a business, so I want to ensure that I'm using my time and money wisely.
|
Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
Pleasure David. Yes, we are agreed.
I’ve had the reciprocating piston for about 3 years now — it might have slipped your mind — and financially very disappointing. The sales persons (across many brands) perpetuating the idea that vanes and screws are good for woodworkers because
they are so quiet, reliable and efficient, are speaking in utter ignorance. Such machines need to be run semi-continuously to avoid water build-up in the vanes/screw, which results in corrosion and failure after a couple of years. It was a $10k AUD education
for me. ??
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Show quoted text
Thanks Lucky. ?Good info. ?You and I completely agree about your summary points, namely:
- Felder machinery represent excellent value,?not?excellent machines
- The Kappa 400 x-motion is a beautiful slider that actually holds its calibration
- The Dual 51 will not hold calibration on the hinged tables
I’m sorry to hear you had to revert to a piston compressor - that must have been a very disappointing decision.
David
On Dec 5, 2022, at 12:46 PM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi David (et al.):
?
I wasn’t sure whether to chime in because the OP was asking questions about drum sanders and whether the RL160 would be adequate for that. But thanks for the
encouragement as I would make a few points which may be salient …
?
A colleague and friend of mine across town (here in Brisbane, Australia) has a large drum sander and he uses an AF-48 plus cartridge filter and reports good
results. This guy has very significant through-put so there’s some evidence that the combination is working for him.
?
I had an RL160 for close to 10 years, but it was an older model, non-anti-static and without auto clean. It was a good extractor for what it was with the following
(brief) caveats: the pleated filter required very regular and vigorous manual cleaning to keep the pleats free of detritus, and the dual bins filled very unevenly, dependent on how many gates were open or closed at the time (i.e. material falls into the first
bin or shoots across the first bin and ends up in the second).
?
I now have the RL250 with pulsed air cleaning system. I use it with all the usual machines, but the OP will likely be most interested in its performance with
my Format-4 FW1102 Finish wide belt sander. The RL250 does a good job on the wide belt (WB), which requires 2 x 160mm ducts.
?
On the issue of extraction capacity, I recall someone asking whether the AF-16 would be sufficient. I think not. You need very significant extraction for sanders.
The AF-22 is big enough for a 16” drum sander, but nowhere near big enough for my WB, clogging filters notwithstanding.
?
My RL250 has significant design “problems”. I don’t want to call them flaws because the machine does work, just not as well as it should. I’m pretty sure I’ve
documented my views on the RL250 at length previously but here is a quickie.
?
-
The automatic pulsed cleaning system requires enormous amounts of compressed air – David B. is absolutely correct and in fact he is the one who discovered my machine was starved for air. The RL250 has an onboard receiver or reservoir
which holds reserve compressed air for use during the cleaning cycle, but it is woefully inadequate. It is also very hard to get to if air connections develop a leak…ahem.
-
The RL250 comes with monster 1-1/4” air fittings and it needs it. What was happening (when I was starving it of air) is that the first of four “pulses” (for cleaning) would be applied at full pressure. The onboard receiver would
be entirely drained. My shop receiver would then “fill it up” in readiness for the second blast of air.
-
However, the onboard receiver would not pressurise in time (inlet air line was too small) so that the second blast of air was not quite as strong as the first. By the fourth blast – which was not really a blast at all – the cleaning
was quite ineffective.
-
The solution was two-fold. First, I needed a properly sized inlet pipe – 30mm (which when you think about it is pretty big for us woodworkers). And second, I needed a much bigger receiver to hold reserve air for use during the automatic
cleaning cycles.
?
I have a 5.5HP reciprocating piston compressor (replacing my rotary screw compressor and the hydrovane compressor before that – both of which were destroyed
because they were unable to perform intermittent work – see my latest article in Australian Wood Review, Issue 117), and a 550L receiver. The receiver reduces from 140PSI to about 90PSI over the course of a single cleaning cycle (4 blasts of air), and the
compressor kicks in every time.
?
I do not believe even a much larger compressor could keep up with the blasts (which are surprisingly loud and violent). This is implicitly recognised by Felder
with the onboard receiver. The documentation that comes with the RL250 and bigger is inaccurate. Bottom line RL250s require a LOT of air.
?
Oh, and the uneven filling of bins persists. It really is laughable on a circa $20k machines (less in USD and lots more in AUD). Problems or flaws? Hmm.
?
I would not purchase another one. Just to be clear, I like my Felder and Format-4 machines and I have an entire shop of them and have been purchasing since
2005. And my local reps are excellent. My criticism of the RL250 should be taken in that context.
?
But I have to say Felder machinery represent excellent value,?not?excellent
machines. If I had more money, I would not buy a single Felder/Format-4 again, with the possible exception of my Kappa 400 x-motion. The RL250 is flawed (oops, sorry, “problematic”); the Profil 45Z x-motion absolutely does not hold calibration and is simply
a very fancy manual shaper; my vintage FS900 has twisted casting; the FB540 is no longer made and in fact was not made by Felder at all and so is an excellent bandsaw; the FW1102 is also no longer made and in fact was not made by Felder – it is pretty good
but very underpowered at 15kW; the Dual 51 will not hold calibration on the hinged tables – best to avoid altogether; the FD250 is actually pretty good (he grudgingly admits) but ironically I no longer own one of those as I didn’t use it enough. Oh, and I
do love my FAT300 even though it is very expensive.
?
But the Kappa 400 x-motion is a beautiful slider that actually holds its calibration.
?
Warm regards,
Lucky
?
David (Lucky) Luckensmeyer should chime in on this. ?He has a large WB with an RL-200 or 250 if memory serves. ?His dust extractor takes an enormous amount
of compressed air. ?Lucky?
?
[Edited Message Follows]
Hi Kyle,?
I recently received a new RL160 with auto clean, auto start to replace an RL160 without. Machine price was ~$6,700 much quieter than a cyclone with no blow by dust collecting around the exhaust.? The RL200 is in the same chassis as the RL160 but three phase,
the next steps up on bigger models use compressed air to blow the pleats clean during operation that's where you can sand all day long.? Now for half that a cyclone is going to do a great job as the mid level RL's have limited filter area and no way to drop
out fines like a cyclone has.? The RL decibel output is about 70db, the Cyclones are 85db, the RL is [email protected]" single phase and Cyclones are 3hp@6" or 5hp@8" typically.? Like many things there are tradeoffs for noise, HP, duct size and cleaning methods.?
IMO If you are going to use a WBS I suggest a cyclone or pleat cleaning style collector during operation otherwise the low noise, auto clean and high efficiency of the RL is going to work well for you. Other options are Nederman bag systems??$9,000
or AL-KO?the
latter starting at $15,000.?
--?
Jay Bowen
Cleveland?
?
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Re: Trouble with North America Sales
? David,
Ecap is just a shorthand. I am not sure if it is understood universally but hopefully obvious due to the context.
On 3 phase Felder machines, one needs to hold the switch for just a bit for the relay to engage. Felder programs the receiver output, for the wireless slider switches, to turn on for 3 sec. This essentially is mimicking the start switch being pressed by the operator. Here is the K975 circuit that shows the setting of 3 Sec.
When I added the wireless switches to my slider, I programmed the receiver output accordingly.
The difference here, compared to a single phase machine, is that on a 3 phase machine I can’t think of an ill effect if the switch is held a bit longer.
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On Dec 5, 2022, at 2:43 PM, david.r.milson@... wrote: ?Hi guys
Thanks for the explanation Imran.
Well, I hadn't heard an Electrolytic Capacitor referred to as an Ecap previously, but I was surprised to read further down the thread these start caps are polariszed (my bad).??
The point David Best makes is still valid.? Felder pitches themselves at being high end gear.? Starter cap issues do seem to pop up here.? It shouldn't be too difficult for Felder to establish what's going wrong even if they just relied on getting their own techs to gather the required field data.
Fortunately, my Felder gear is 3 phase but do the instructions say to hold the start button in until motor is up to full speed on single phase motors?? My understanding was to let go of the start button well before full speed was reached.
Cheers
David
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Re: Installing leveling casters on AD941
#ad941
David,
I do have pictures...? There was a period of time I had a perpetual scab on my rt shin at that exact height.
PK
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Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
Nederman s1000 over here and it is a freakin beast. And very quiet. They now have an autoclean option for the filters. Additionally, it has been copied and potentially improved by Preston Machinery. Nederman also makes smaller collectors that should outperform felder.?
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Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
Thanks Lucky. ?Good info. ?You and I completely agree about your summary points, namely:
- Felder machinery represent excellent value,?not?excellent machines
- The Kappa 400 x-motion is a beautiful slider that actually holds its calibration
- The Dual 51 will not hold calibration on the hinged tables
I’m sorry to hear you had to revert to a piston compressor - that must have been a very disappointing decision.
David
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 5, 2022, at 12:46 PM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi David (et al.): ? I wasn’t sure whether to chime in because the OP was asking questions about drum sanders and whether the RL160 would be adequate for that. But thanks for the encouragement as I would make a few points which may be salient … ? A colleague and friend of mine across town (here in Brisbane, Australia) has a large drum sander and he uses an AF-48 plus cartridge filter and reports good results. This guy has very significant through-put so there’s some evidence that the combination is working for him. ? I had an RL160 for close to 10 years, but it was an older model, non-anti-static and without auto clean. It was a good extractor for what it was with the following (brief) caveats: the pleated filter required very regular and vigorous manual cleaning to keep the pleats free of detritus, and the dual bins filled very unevenly, dependent on how many gates were open or closed at the time (i.e. material falls into the first bin or shoots across the first bin and ends up in the second). ? I now have the RL250 with pulsed air cleaning system. I use it with all the usual machines, but the OP will likely be most interested in its performance with my Format-4 FW1102 Finish wide belt sander. The RL250 does a good job on the wide belt (WB), which requires 2 x 160mm ducts. ? On the issue of extraction capacity, I recall someone asking whether the AF-16 would be sufficient. I think not. You need very significant extraction for sanders. The AF-22 is big enough for a 16” drum sander, but nowhere near big enough for my WB, clogging filters notwithstanding. ? My RL250 has significant design “problems”. I don’t want to call them flaws because the machine does work, just not as well as it should. I’m pretty sure I’ve documented my views on the RL250 at length previously but here is a quickie. ? - The automatic pulsed cleaning system requires enormous amounts of compressed air – David B. is absolutely correct and in fact he is the one who discovered my machine was starved for air. The RL250 has an onboard receiver or reservoir which holds reserve compressed air for use during the cleaning cycle, but it is woefully inadequate. It is also very hard to get to if air connections develop a leak…ahem.
- The RL250 comes with monster 1-1/4” air fittings and it needs it. What was happening (when I was starving it of air) is that the first of four “pulses” (for cleaning) would be applied at full pressure. The onboard receiver would be entirely drained. My shop receiver would then “fill it up” in readiness for the second blast of air.
- However, the onboard receiver would not pressurise in time (inlet air line was too small) so that the second blast of air was not quite as strong as the first. By the fourth blast – which was not really a blast at all – the cleaning was quite ineffective.
- The solution was two-fold. First, I needed a properly sized inlet pipe – 30mm (which when you think about it is pretty big for us woodworkers). And second, I needed a much bigger receiver to hold reserve air for use during the automatic cleaning cycles.
? I have a 5.5HP reciprocating piston compressor (replacing my rotary screw compressor and the hydrovane compressor before that – both of which were destroyed because they were unable to perform intermittent work – see my latest article in Australian Wood Review, Issue 117), and a 550L receiver. The receiver reduces from 140PSI to about 90PSI over the course of a single cleaning cycle (4 blasts of air), and the compressor kicks in every time. ? I do not believe even a much larger compressor could keep up with the blasts (which are surprisingly loud and violent). This is implicitly recognised by Felder with the onboard receiver. The documentation that comes with the RL250 and bigger is inaccurate. Bottom line RL250s require a LOT of air. ? Oh, and the uneven filling of bins persists. It really is laughable on a circa $20k machines (less in USD and lots more in AUD). Problems or flaws? Hmm. ? I would not purchase another one. Just to be clear, I like my Felder and Format-4 machines and I have an entire shop of them and have been purchasing since 2005. And my local reps are excellent. My criticism of the RL250 should be taken in that context. ? But I have to say Felder machinery represent excellent value,?not?excellent machines. If I had more money, I would not buy a single Felder/Format-4 again, with the possible exception of my Kappa 400 x-motion. The RL250 is flawed (oops, sorry, “problematic”); the Profil 45Z x-motion absolutely does not hold calibration and is simply a very fancy manual shaper; my vintage FS900 has twisted casting; the FB540 is no longer made and in fact was not made by Felder at all and so is an excellent bandsaw; the FW1102 is also no longer made and in fact was not made by Felder – it is pretty good but very underpowered at 15kW; the Dual 51 will not hold calibration on the hinged tables – best to avoid altogether; the FD250 is actually pretty good (he grudgingly admits) but ironically I no longer own one of those as I didn’t use it enough. Oh, and I do love my FAT300 even though it is very expensive. ? But the Kappa 400 x-motion is a beautiful slider that actually holds its calibration. ? Warm regards, Lucky ? David (Lucky) Luckensmeyer should chime in on this. ?He has a large WB with an RL-200 or 250 if memory serves. ?His dust extractor takes an enormous amount of compressed air. ?Lucky?
? [Edited Message Follows] Hi Kyle,?
I recently received a new RL160 with auto clean, auto start to replace an RL160 without. Machine price was ~$6,700 much quieter than a cyclone with no blow by dust collecting around the exhaust.? The RL200 is in the same chassis as the RL160 but three phase, the next steps up on bigger models use compressed air to blow the pleats clean during operation that's where you can sand all day long.? Now for half that a cyclone is going to do a great job as the mid level RL's have limited filter area and no way to drop out fines like a cyclone has.? The RL decibel output is about 70db, the Cyclones are 85db, the RL is [email protected]" single phase and Cyclones are 3hp@6" or 5hp@8" typically.? Like many things there are tradeoffs for noise, HP, duct size and cleaning methods.? IMO If you are going to use a WBS I suggest a cyclone or pleat cleaning style collector during operation otherwise the low noise, auto clean and high efficiency of the RL is going to work well for you. Other options are Nederman bag systems??$9,000 or AL-KO?the latter starting at $15,000.?
--?
Jay Bowen
Cleveland?
?
|
Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
Hi David (et al.):
?
I wasn’t sure whether to chime in because the OP was asking questions about drum sanders and whether the RL160 would be adequate for that. But thanks for the encouragement as I would make a few points which
may be salient …
?
A colleague and friend of mine across town (here in Brisbane, Australia) has a large drum sander and he uses an AF-48 plus cartridge filter and reports good results. This guy has very significant through-put
so there’s some evidence that the combination is working for him.
?
I had an RL160 for close to 10 years, but it was an older model, non-anti-static and without auto clean. It was a good extractor for what it was with the following (brief) caveats: the pleated filter required
very regular and vigorous manual cleaning to keep the pleats free of detritus, and the dual bins filled very unevenly, dependent on how many gates were open or closed at the time (i.e. material falls into the first bin or shoots across the first bin and ends
up in the second).
?
I now have the RL250 with pulsed air cleaning system. I use it with all the usual machines, but the OP will likely be most interested in its performance with my Format-4 FW1102 Finish wide belt sander. The
RL250 does a good job on the wide belt (WB), which requires 2 x 160mm ducts.
?
On the issue of extraction capacity, I recall someone asking whether the AF-16 would be sufficient. I think not. You need very significant extraction for sanders. The AF-22 is big enough for a 16” drum sander,
but nowhere near big enough for my WB, clogging filters notwithstanding.
?
My RL250 has significant design “problems”. I don’t want to call them flaws because the machine does work, just not as well as it should. I’m pretty sure I’ve documented my views on the RL250 at length previously
but here is a quickie.
?
- The automatic pulsed cleaning system requires enormous amounts of compressed air – David B. is absolutely correct and in fact he is the one who discovered
my machine was starved for air. The RL250 has an onboard receiver or reservoir which holds reserve compressed air for use during the cleaning cycle, but it is woefully inadequate. It is also very hard to get to if air connections develop a leak…ahem.
- The RL250 comes with monster 1-1/4” air fittings and it needs it. What was happening (when I was starving it of air) is that the first of four “pulses”
(for cleaning) would be applied at full pressure. The onboard receiver would be entirely drained. My shop receiver would then “fill it up” in readiness for the second blast of air.
- However, the onboard receiver would not pressurise in time (inlet air line was too small) so that the second blast of air was not quite as strong as
the first. By the fourth blast – which was not really a blast at all – the cleaning was quite ineffective.
- The solution was two-fold. First, I needed a properly sized inlet pipe – 30mm (which when you think about it is pretty big for us woodworkers). And second,
I needed a much bigger receiver to hold reserve air for use during the automatic cleaning cycles.
?
I have a 5.5HP reciprocating piston compressor (replacing my rotary screw compressor and the hydrovane compressor before that – both of which were destroyed because they were unable to perform intermittent
work – see my latest article in Australian Wood Review, Issue 117), and a 550L receiver. The receiver reduces from 140PSI to about 90PSI over the course of a single cleaning cycle (4 blasts of air), and the compressor kicks in every time.
?
I do not believe even a much larger compressor could keep up with the blasts (which are surprisingly loud and violent). This is implicitly recognised by Felder with the onboard receiver. The documentation
that comes with the RL250 and bigger is inaccurate. Bottom line RL250s require a LOT of air.
?
Oh, and the uneven filling of bins persists. It really is laughable on a circa $20k machines (less in USD and lots more in AUD). Problems or flaws? Hmm.
?
I would not purchase another one. Just to be clear, I like my Felder and Format-4 machines and I have an entire shop of them and have been purchasing since 2005. And my local reps are excellent. My criticism
of the RL250 should be taken in that context.
?
But I have to say Felder machinery represent excellent value,
not excellent machines. If I had more money, I would not buy a single Felder/Format-4 again, with the possible exception of my Kappa 400 x-motion. The RL250 is flawed (oops, sorry, “problematic”); the Profil 45Z x-motion absolutely does not hold calibration
and is simply a very fancy manual shaper; my vintage FS900 has twisted casting; the FB540 is no longer made and in fact was not made by Felder at all and so is an excellent bandsaw; the FW1102 is also no longer made and in fact was not made by Felder – it
is pretty good but very underpowered at 15kW; the Dual 51 will not hold calibration on the hinged tables – best to avoid altogether; the FD250 is actually pretty good (he grudgingly admits) but ironically I no longer own one of those as I didn’t use it enough.
Oh, and I do love my FAT300 even though it is very expensive.
?
But the Kappa 400 x-motion is a beautiful slider that actually holds its calibration.
?
Warm regards,
Lucky
?
David (Lucky) Luckensmeyer should chime in on this. ?He has a large WB with an RL-200 or 250 if memory serves. ?His dust extractor takes an enormous amount of compressed air. ?Lucky?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
?
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On Dec 5, 2022, at 5:41 AM, jbowen@... wrote:
?
[Edited Message Follows]
Hi Kyle,
I recently received a new RL160 with auto clean, auto start to replace an RL160 without. Machine price was ~$6,700 much quieter than a cyclone with no blow by dust collecting around the exhaust.? The RL200 is in the same chassis as the RL160 but three phase,
the next steps up on bigger models use compressed air to blow the pleats clean during operation that's where you can sand all day long.? Now for half that a cyclone is going to do a great job as the mid level RL's have limited filter area and no way to drop
out fines like a cyclone has.? The RL decibel output is about 70db, the Cyclones are 85db, the RL is [email protected]" single phase and Cyclones are 3hp@6" or 5hp@8" typically.? Like many things there are tradeoffs for noise, HP, duct size and cleaning methods.?
IMO If you are going to use a WBS I suggest a cyclone or pleat cleaning style collector during operation otherwise the low noise, auto clean and high efficiency of the RL is going to work well for you. Other options are Nederman bag systems https://www.hermance.com/Industrial/New-Machines/Nederman-S-500-5HP-Filter-Dust-Collector
$9,000 or AL-KO the latter starting at $15,000.
--
Jay Bowen
Cleveland
?
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Re: Trouble with North America Sales
Joe,
You reminded of another key aspect of electrolytic capacitors. Reputable manufacturers design these caps for 1000, 5000 & 10000 hrs of life. This life is only guaranteed for a set of conditions. This life is subject to Arrhenius equation where every 10C rise in operating temp reduces life by 1/2.
So like concrete and unlike many other electrical components these parts are guaranteed to eventually fail.
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On Dec 5, 2022, at 2:59 PM, bacchus6015 via groups.io <joeinno@...> wrote: ? I did lose a start cap on my 2000 CF731p. ?But only once in the 15 years I had it. ?It was a big deal to get a new one and replace it.
On Dec 5, 2022, at 11:43 AM, david.r.milson@... wrote:
Hi guys
Thanks for the explanation Imran.
Well, I hadn't heard an Electrolytic Capacitor referred to as an Ecap previously, but I was surprised to read further down the thread these start caps are polariszed (my bad).??
The point David Best makes is still valid.? Felder pitches themselves at being high end gear.? Starter cap issues do seem to pop up here.? It shouldn't be too difficult for Felder to establish what's going wrong even if they just relied on getting their own techs to gather the required field data.
Fortunately, my Felder gear is 3 phase but do the instructions say to hold the start button in until motor is up to full speed on single phase motors?? My understanding was to let go of the start button well before full speed was reached.
Cheers
David
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Re: Installing leveling casters on AD941
#ad941
“Shin crushing experience” - I guess that says it all. ? LOL
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Dec 5, 2022, at 7:10 AM, PK <pk@...> wrote:
[Edited Message Follows]
Aaron, I sold the AD-941, but the front mount can be a shin crushing experience.? I have a 20" wide pallet jack and you would need to keep the bolts that you install on the back for removing it from the pallet to use a 20" wide pallet jack.? Plus it is hard to use the pallet jack that way when the tables are lowered! There are compromises in both scenarios.? looking back I am not sure what I would pick if I did it again.? In the review I did, I was closer to it and said no to the mobility kit. PK
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Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
I second that with Mark Kessler?
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On Dec 5, 2022, at 9:17 AM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:
? Fwiw, I have a 2.5hp single phase cyclone and it gets at least 90-95% of all dust from my 37” wide belt. Might even be better , i only notice a little left over dust in the belt area. On Dec 5, 2022, at 12:12 PM, joelgelman via groups.io <joelgelman@...> wrote:
?What Tom said.....
I now have a widebelt and an Al-Ko. ?When I had a dual drum (Performax/Supermax 37 inch) and a smaller shop, my dust collector was Oneida. ?It was tall but did not take up a lot of square footage and I never had a problem with it. ?If there is any way your dust collector can be housed in an attached lean-to shed, you free up space, decrease noise, and save on the dust cloud in the shop when you empty the bin. Just my 0.02.
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Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
David (Lucky) Luckensmeyer should chime in on this. ?He has a large WB with an RL-200 or 250 if memory serves. ?His dust extractor takes an enormous amount of compressed air. ?Lucky?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 5, 2022, at 5:41 AM, jbowen@... wrote:
[Edited Message Follows]
Hi Kyle, I recently received a new RL160 with auto clean, auto start to replace an RL160 without. Machine price was ~$6,700 much quieter than a cyclone with no blow by dust collecting around the exhaust.? The RL200 is in the same chassis as the RL160 but three phase, the next steps up on bigger models use compressed air to blow the pleats clean during operation that's where you can sand all day long.? Now for half that a cyclone is going to do a great job as the mid level RL's have limited filter area and no way to drop out fines like a cyclone has.? The RL decibel output is about 70db, the Cyclones are 85db, the RL is [email protected]" single phase and Cyclones are 3hp@6" or 5hp@8" typically.? Like many things there are tradeoffs for noise, HP, duct size and cleaning methods.? IMO If you are going to use a WBS I suggest a cyclone or pleat cleaning style collector during operation otherwise the low noise, auto clean and high efficiency of the RL is going to work well for you. Other options are Nederman bag systems https://www.hermance.com/Industrial/New-Machines/Nederman-S-500-5HP-Filter-Dust-Collector $9,000 or AL-KO the latter starting at $15,000. -- Jay Bowen Cleveland
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Re: Installing leveling casters on AD941
#ad941
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On Dec 5, 2022, at 8:27 AM, PK <pk@...> wrote:
? Wade,
Nothing bad.? I loved it!? I wanted a 20” unit with full “power Drive” and the finances allowed me to go big.
?
I would have probably gone with a 3ph 5.5kw if I did it again.
PK
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Re: Trouble with North America Sales
I did lose a start cap on my 2000 CF731p. ?But only once in the 15 years I had it. ?It was a big deal to get a new one and replace it.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 5, 2022, at 11:43 AM, david.r.milson@... wrote:
Hi guys
Thanks for the explanation Imran.
Well, I hadn't heard an Electrolytic Capacitor referred to as an Ecap previously, but I was surprised to read further down the thread these start caps are polariszed (my bad).??
The point David Best makes is still valid.? Felder pitches themselves at being high end gear.? Starter cap issues do seem to pop up here.? It shouldn't be too difficult for Felder to establish what's going wrong even if they just relied on getting their own techs to gather the required field data.
Fortunately, my Felder gear is 3 phase but do the instructions say to hold the start button in until motor is up to full speed on single phase motors?? My understanding was to let go of the start button well before full speed was reached.
Cheers
David
|
Re: Trouble with North America Sales
Hi guys
Thanks for the explanation Imran.
Well, I hadn't heard an Electrolytic Capacitor referred to as an Ecap previously, but I was surprised to read further down the thread these start caps are polariszed (my bad).??
The point David Best makes is still valid.? Felder pitches themselves at being high end gear.? Starter cap issues do seem to pop up here.? It shouldn't be too difficult for Felder to establish what's going wrong even if they just relied on getting their own techs to gather the required field data.
Fortunately, my Felder gear is 3 phase but do the instructions say to hold the start button in until motor is up to full speed on single phase motors?? My understanding was to let go of the start button well before full speed was reached.
Cheers
David
|
Re: Trouble with North America Sales
An update on the Ecaps -?
ones in the machine are from china, the ones they shipped me are from romania.?
Perhaps sourcing trouble during covid.
Edit: update for prospective future buyers, I know I checked here before purchasing. - technician came today, 13 days after the initial failure. Definitely a manufacturing defect in the capacitor. Overall pretty happy with the level of service, they were kind enough to also hit my machine with some rust inhibitor and the glide solution they sell. Only criticism I have remaining is that my overall stress level would have been significantly lower had the service dept given me a tracking number for the parts on order.?
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imran
David Luckensmeyer
PK
David P. Best
