Re: Powering Three Phase Equipment in a Single Phase Shop
Dan,
? ? I had a 40HP rotary (used). ran my 20hp wide belt, no complaints, but it has no sophisticated digital controls/motorized lifts, so it just took whatever you could throw at it for power.
However, once I purchased an F900z and read the electrical specs and tolerances of accuracy required to maintain warranty, I tested, found the hot leg was out of balance at 270v output. Time/expense paid to hire a rare pro who can sit for several hours balancing out to match was just not going to happen. I found my only viable option was to get rid of the rotary and go with a phase perfect, which I was longing for anyway.?I bought a 20hp Phase Perfect, as that's the rating on my largest machine, so running the 10hp F900z is a breeze for it.?
In short, biggest difference is plug and play, precise real-time matching to load of the phase perfect, regardless which of the 3phase machines is running at the time.?
Jeff
?
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Re: Powering Three Phase Equipment in a Single Phase Shop
It don't remember reading about a dust collector.? ?Assuming it's 3 phase, that should be in your sizing decision.?
I? have a 30 hp PP.? It's been in operation for 7 years now and has been flawless.?
Marlowe McGraw?
On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 9:29 AM < tom@...> wrote: Dan,?
I too am running a Phase Perfect PT010 (build year 2020) and it has been great. It runs on a 80A 240V 1Ph circuit breaker, I think the next size up requires a 160A breaker, which is greater than your sub panel so probably a "no-go!". I regularly run a 4hp 3Ph RL160 along with my 7.5hp 3Ph KF700SP, or my 7.5hp 3Ph 16" wide belt with no problems, I expect the same when I receive my 7.5hp 3Ph FB710 and 10hp 3Ph shaper.
As David Best writes, the staff at Phase Technologies are great to work with, and were very patient with me as I worked through which appliance to order and how to set it up.?
Best wishes,?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Re: Powering Three Phase Equipment in a Single Phase Shop
Dan,?
I too am running a Phase Perfect PT010 (build year 2020) and it has been great. It runs on a 80A 240V 1Ph circuit breaker, I think the next size up requires a 160A breaker, which is greater than your sub panel so probably a "no-go!". I regularly run a 4hp 3Ph RL160 along with my 7.5hp 3Ph KF700SP, or my 7.5hp 3Ph 16" wide belt with no problems, I expect the same when I receive my 7.5hp 3Ph FB710 and 10hp 3Ph shaper.
As David Best writes, the staff at Phase Technologies are great to work with, and were very patient with me as I worked through which appliance to order and how to set it up.?
Best wishes,?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Re: Powering Three Phase Equipment in a Single Phase Shop
Dan, The PP10 can take an inrush of 100amps for 4 or 6 sec (can’t remember which) once the machine is running a lot less amperage is required to run when not under load. Even ?under load alot ww machines won’t spike the amps that much, not all but some. In a one man shop it should never be a problem as you can only really use one machine at a time. So you could start a saw, jointer, planer…let them run but you could only put one under load at a time unless you are a magician.
For example my 9hp widebelt when turned on spikes at 100+ amps for a few seconds then when running and not under load it is pulling under 10 amps and under load 10-15 amps unless i miscalculate the adjustment and take too much off then i have seen it jump to 40amps
If you can buy new thats great, I bought mine from Bill B for about 1/2 new. They come up every once and awhile, when i was looking i saw that they come up for sale on machinists forums often.
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On Jun 5, 2022, at 9:22 AM, Dan Gavrilyuk <dgwoodco@...> wrote:
? Thanks David for the lengthy explanation. It looks like I will be placing an order for a 10hp PP. I’m curious how you’re able to run so much more hp on the converter than it’s rated for? That’s almost double the amount.? On Jun 4, 2022, at 10:34 PM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote:
? I highly recommend you go with a Phase Perfect rather than a rotary. ??
A rotary is a mechanical device - basically a motor that uses some of the windings to generate the 3rd leg of power. ?So it makes noise when it’s running, and heat, and all that comes with running a motor - including power consumption when it’s on - even if the equipment attached to it (like your saw,?dust extractor, etc.) is turned off. ?The rotary converters will consume enough more electricity sitting idle to pay for the extra cost of a PP in about 5-7 years, and rotary units are notorious for creating other problems with high voltage spikes on the manufactured leg. ?
I’ve had both types, and if you can afford the Phase Perfect, it will serve you better long term.
In contrast the Phase Perfect is a digital solution that also generates the 3rd leg, but does so without employing mechanical means to do so. ?It doesn’t consume power when the equipment attached to it is turned off, and the output is voltage stabilized, so it’s highly desirable in shops with sensitive electronic equipment.
My Phase Perfect has been the most reliable and trouble free piece of equipment that runs on electricity in my shop. ? I’ve owned it 18 yeas now. ?I have their prior generation 10HP unit - the DPC-A10, and the?current generation equivalent is the PT010. ?It powers my Dual 51 13HP in?conjunction with my RL160 5.5HP with enough left over to also run my Kappa 400 in idle. ?So their equipment is seriously under rated IMO, but check with them if you have any questions about sizing.
Your next questions are probably going to be about shop wiring for 3P. ?DM me if you want some suggestions.
The?Phase Perfect service is terrific if anything does go wrong. ? I dropped mine from 12 feet onto the corner of another machine during a move, and I was sure it was going to the scrap bin - photos follow. ? But they insisted I ship it back to the, and they had it repaired and returned to me within a week and it cost me $512 for the repairs and $200 for freight. ??
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
On Jun 4, 2022, at 12:10 PM, Dan Gavrilyuk < dgwoodco@...> wrote:
After 4 years in my current commercial ship rental with three phase, I’m taking the plunge and buying a house with a 1k square foot detached garage. Closing is July 22, move will take place in August.? I’ll be needing a way to power my three phase equipment on single phase power so looking for the best way to do so. The garage has a 120amp sub panel from the house.? Three phase equipment coming with me are a 10hp 25” planer, 7.5hp 16” jointer, 7.5 hp k700s, and a 7.5hp f700z shaper on the way (due for delivery end of August)?
I’m leaning towards a American rotary 15hp phase converter (possibly 20hp to account for future equipment). But I’ve also been hearing a lot about Phase Perfect converters. What are the pros and cons of each type? Any input will be greatly appreciated.?
Not included on this list is my 10hp single phase 43” timesaver wide belt.?
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Re: Powering Three Phase Equipment in a Single Phase Shop
Thanks David for the lengthy explanation. It looks like I will be placing an order for a 10hp PP. I’m curious how you’re able to run so much more hp on the converter than it’s rated for? That’s almost double the amount.?
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On Jun 4, 2022, at 10:34 PM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote:
? I highly recommend you go with a Phase Perfect rather than a rotary. ??
A rotary is a mechanical device - basically a motor that uses some of the windings to generate the 3rd leg of power. ?So it makes noise when it’s running, and heat, and all that comes with running a motor - including power consumption when it’s on - even if the equipment attached to it (like your saw,?dust extractor, etc.) is turned off. ?The rotary converters will consume enough more electricity sitting idle to pay for the extra cost of a PP in about 5-7 years, and rotary units are notorious for creating other problems with high voltage spikes on the manufactured leg. ?
I’ve had both types, and if you can afford the Phase Perfect, it will serve you better long term.
In contrast the Phase Perfect is a digital solution that also generates the 3rd leg, but does so without employing mechanical means to do so. ?It doesn’t consume power when the equipment attached to it is turned off, and the output is voltage stabilized, so it’s highly desirable in shops with sensitive electronic equipment.
My Phase Perfect has been the most reliable and trouble free piece of equipment that runs on electricity in my shop. ? I’ve owned it 18 yeas now. ?I have their prior generation 10HP unit - the DPC-A10, and the?current generation equivalent is the PT010. ?It powers my Dual 51 13HP in?conjunction with my RL160 5.5HP with enough left over to also run my Kappa 400 in idle. ?So their equipment is seriously under rated IMO, but check with them if you have any questions about sizing.
Your next questions are probably going to be about shop wiring for 3P. ?DM me if you want some suggestions.
The?Phase Perfect service is terrific if anything does go wrong. ? I dropped mine from 12 feet onto the corner of another machine during a move, and I was sure it was going to the scrap bin - photos follow. ? But they insisted I ship it back to the, and they had it repaired and returned to me within a week and it cost me $512 for the repairs and $200 for freight. ??
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
On Jun 4, 2022, at 12:10 PM, Dan Gavrilyuk < dgwoodco@...> wrote:
After 4 years in my current commercial ship rental with three phase, I’m taking the plunge and buying a house with a 1k square foot detached garage. Closing is July 22, move will take place in August.? I’ll be needing a way to power my three phase equipment on single phase power so looking for the best way to do so. The garage has a 120amp sub panel from the house.? Three phase equipment coming with me are a 10hp 25” planer, 7.5hp 16” jointer, 7.5 hp k700s, and a 7.5hp f700z shaper on the way (due for delivery end of August)?
I’m leaning towards a American rotary 15hp phase converter (possibly 20hp to account for future equipment). But I’ve also been hearing a lot about Phase Perfect converters. What are the pros and cons of each type? Any input will be greatly appreciated.?
Not included on this list is my 10hp single phase 43” timesaver wide belt.?
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Re: Powering Three Phase Equipment in a Single Phase Shop
I highly recommend you go with a Phase Perfect rather than a rotary. ??
A rotary is a mechanical device - basically a motor that uses some of the windings to generate the 3rd leg of power. ?So it makes noise when it’s running, and heat, and all that comes with running a motor - including power consumption when it’s on - even if the equipment attached to it (like your saw,?dust extractor, etc.) is turned off. ?The rotary converters will consume enough more electricity sitting idle to pay for the extra cost of a PP in about 5-7 years, and rotary units are notorious for creating other problems with high voltage spikes on the manufactured leg. ?
I’ve had both types, and if you can afford the Phase Perfect, it will serve you better long term.
In contrast the Phase Perfect is a digital solution that also generates the 3rd leg, but does so without employing mechanical means to do so. ?It doesn’t consume power when the equipment attached to it is turned off, and the output is voltage stabilized, so it’s highly desirable in shops with sensitive electronic equipment.
My Phase Perfect has been the most reliable and trouble free piece of equipment that runs on electricity in my shop. ? I’ve owned it 18 yeas now. ?I have their prior generation 10HP unit - the DPC-A10, and the?current generation equivalent is the PT010. ?It powers my Dual 51 13HP in?conjunction with my RL160 5.5HP with enough left over to also run my Kappa 400 in idle. ?So their equipment is seriously under rated IMO, but check with them if you have any questions about sizing.
Your next questions are probably going to be about shop wiring for 3P. ?DM me if you want some suggestions.
The?Phase Perfect service is terrific if anything does go wrong. ? I dropped mine from 12 feet onto the corner of another machine during a move, and I was sure it was going to the scrap bin - photos follow. ? But they insisted I ship it back to the, and they had it repaired and returned to me within a week and it cost me $512 for the repairs and $200 for freight. ??
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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On Jun 4, 2022, at 12:10 PM, Dan Gavrilyuk < dgwoodco@...> wrote:
After 4 years in my current commercial ship rental with three phase, I’m taking the plunge and buying a house with a 1k square foot detached garage. Closing is July 22, move will take place in August.? I’ll be needing a way to power my three phase equipment on single phase power so looking for the best way to do so. The garage has a 120amp sub panel from the house.? Three phase equipment coming with me are a 10hp 25” planer, 7.5hp 16” jointer, 7.5 hp k700s, and a 7.5hp f700z shaper on the way (due for delivery end of August)?
I’m leaning towards a American rotary 15hp phase converter (possibly 20hp to account for future equipment). But I’ve also been hearing a lot about Phase Perfect converters. What are the pros and cons of each type? Any input will be greatly appreciated.?
Not included on this list is my 10hp single phase 43” timesaver wide belt.?
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Re: Powering Three Phase Equipment in a Single Phase Shop
I’ve had two phase perfects. I bought them because I understood they provided cleaner power and I had invested a lot of money on my equipment and realized an electrical problem was something I definitely didn’t want.
I considered the extra cost to be like insurance.
Bill Belanger
In my previous 1PH shop, i used a phase perfect converter, and it was superb.? On Jun 4, 2022, at 5:00 PM, Eric Janson < jej@...> wrote:
Good luck with your move! I bought a Phase Perfect and it has worked very well. The specs are good, and when Felder learned I was installing a Phase Perfect, they didn;t bother having me send in the voltage on the legs, they said their experience with them was great. Over and over I have heard that a 10HP Phase Perfect does not need any additional padding (overspecing) so a 10HP PP will be fine with a 10HP motor.? Of course if you want to buy more power in anticipation?of beefier equipment in?the future, better sooner than later. Cheers Eric Janson On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 1:10 PM Dan Gavrilyuk < dgwoodco@...> wrote: After 4 years in my current commercial ship rental with three phase, I’m taking the plunge and buying a house with a 1k square foot detached garage. Closing is July 22, move will take place in August.? I’ll be needing a way to power my three phase equipment on single phase power so looking for the best way to do so. The garage has a 120amp sub panel from the house.? Three phase equipment coming with me are a 10hp 25” planer, 7.5hp 16” jointer, 7.5 hp k700s, and a 7.5hp f700z shaper on the way (due for delivery end of August)?
I’m leaning towards a American rotary 15hp phase converter (possibly 20hp to account for future equipment). But I’ve also been hearing a lot about Phase Perfect converters. What are the pros and cons of each type? Any input will be greatly appreciated.?
Not included on this list is my 10hp single phase 43” timesaver wide belt.?
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Re: Powering Three Phase Equipment in a Single Phase Shop
In my previous 1PH shop, i used a phase perfect converter, and it was superb.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jun 4, 2022, at 5:00 PM, Eric Janson < jej@...> wrote:
Good luck with your move! I bought a Phase Perfect and it has worked very well. The specs are good, and when Felder learned I was installing a Phase Perfect, they didn;t bother having me send in the voltage on the legs, they said their experience with them was great. Over and over I have heard that a 10HP Phase Perfect does not need any additional padding (overspecing) so a 10HP PP will be fine with a 10HP motor.? Of course if you want to buy more power in anticipation?of beefier equipment in?the future, better sooner than later. Cheers Eric Janson On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 1:10 PM Dan Gavrilyuk < dgwoodco@...> wrote: After 4 years in my current commercial ship rental with three phase, I’m taking the plunge and buying a house with a 1k square foot detached garage. Closing is July 22, move will take place in August.? I’ll be needing a way to power my three phase equipment on single phase power so looking for the best way to do so. The garage has a 120amp sub panel from the house.? Three phase equipment coming with me are a 10hp 25” planer, 7.5hp 16” jointer, 7.5 hp k700s, and a 7.5hp f700z shaper on the way (due for delivery end of August)?
I’m leaning towards a American rotary 15hp phase converter (possibly 20hp to account for future equipment). But I’ve also been hearing a lot about Phase Perfect converters. What are the pros and cons of each type? Any input will be greatly appreciated.?
Not included on this list is my 10hp single phase 43” timesaver wide belt.?
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Re: Powering Three Phase Equipment in a Single Phase Shop
Eric thanks for your response.? What makes the phase perfect the better choice vs a rotary converter? Price is a consideration as I’ll have lots of other shop and house projects to do so if I can save a few thousand I’m happy to do so.?
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On Jun 4, 2022, at 5:00 PM, Eric Janson <jej@...> wrote:
? Good luck with your move! I bought a Phase Perfect and it has worked very well. The specs are good, and when Felder learned I was installing a Phase Perfect, they didn;t bother having me send in the voltage on the legs, they said their experience with them was great. Over and over I have heard that a 10HP Phase Perfect does not need any additional padding (overspecing) so a 10HP PP will be fine with a 10HP motor.? Of course if you want to buy more power in anticipation?of beefier equipment in?the future, better sooner than later. Cheers Eric Janson On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 1:10 PM Dan Gavrilyuk < dgwoodco@...> wrote: After 4 years in my current commercial ship rental with three phase, I’m taking the plunge and buying a house with a 1k square foot detached garage. Closing is July 22, move will take place in August.?
I’ll be needing a way to power my three phase equipment on single phase power so looking for the best way to do so. The garage has a 120amp sub panel from the house.?
Three phase equipment coming with me are a 10hp 25” planer, 7.5hp 16” jointer, 7.5 hp k700s, and a 7.5hp f700z shaper on the way (due for delivery end of August)?
I’m leaning towards a American rotary 15hp phase converter (possibly 20hp to account for future equipment). But I’ve also been hearing a lot about Phase Perfect converters. What are the pros and cons of each type? Any input will be greatly appreciated.?
Not included on this list is my 10hp single phase 43” timesaver wide belt.?
|
Re: Powering Three Phase Equipment in a Single Phase Shop
Good luck with your move! I bought a Phase Perfect and it has worked very well. The specs are good, and when Felder learned I was installing a Phase Perfect, they didn;t bother having me send in the voltage on the legs, they said their experience with them was great. Over and over I have heard that a 10HP Phase Perfect does not need any additional padding (overspecing) so a 10HP PP will be fine with a 10HP motor.? Of course if you want to buy more power in anticipation?of beefier equipment in?the future, better sooner than later. Cheers Eric Janson
On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 1:10 PM Dan Gavrilyuk < dgwoodco@...> wrote: After 4 years in my current commercial ship rental with three phase, I’m taking the plunge and buying a house with a 1k square foot detached garage. Closing is July 22, move will take place in August.?
I’ll be needing a way to power my three phase equipment on single phase power so looking for the best way to do so. The garage has a 120amp sub panel from the house.?
Three phase equipment coming with me are a 10hp 25” planer, 7.5hp 16” jointer, 7.5 hp k700s, and a 7.5hp f700z shaper on the way (due for delivery end of August)?
I’m leaning towards a American rotary 15hp phase converter (possibly 20hp to account for future equipment). But I’ve also been hearing a lot about Phase Perfect converters. What are the pros and cons of each type? Any input will be greatly appreciated.?
Not included on this list is my 10hp single phase 43” timesaver wide belt.?
|
Powering Three Phase Equipment in a Single Phase Shop
After 4 years in my current commercial ship rental with three phase, I’m taking the plunge and buying a house with a 1k square foot detached garage. Closing is July 22, move will take place in August.?
I’ll be needing a way to power my three phase equipment on single phase power so looking for the best way to do so. The garage has a 120amp sub panel from the house.?
Three phase equipment coming with me are a 10hp 25” planer, 7.5hp 16” jointer, 7.5 hp k700s, and a 7.5hp f700z shaper on the way (due for delivery end of August)?
I’m leaning towards a American rotary 15hp phase converter (possibly 20hp to account for future equipment). But I’ve also been hearing a lot about Phase Perfect converters. What are the pros and cons of each type? Any input will be greatly appreciated.?
Not included on this list is my 10hp single phase 43” timesaver wide belt.?
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Re: #rfp - Random Friday Photo - June 3rd, 2022
#rfp
Only complaint, so far, on the door opener, control box supplied with no knock outs. Does not make any sense. It is not possible to use it w/o hooking it up to power, motors and sensors ??♂?
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#rfp - Random Friday Photo - June 3rd, 2022
#rfp
Started install of Franklin Door Opener and wrapping steel frame.
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Re: Dual 51 Electrical Problem
It is amusing to see solutions without a clear problem statement.
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On Jun 3, 2022, at 9:14 AM, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote: ?
David, your reasoning is why I want the OP to check the output voltages to verify they are within spec for the machine.? Motors might run on lower voltage but they tend to get hot, especially the small frame motors used on newer machines.? The fix might well
be temporary and the need for a boost transformer could still be in the cards.? Dave
Dave’s approach never worked for me - even by switching the 24V transformer tap inside the machines to boost the output to the control circuits and moving the PP manufactured leg around.
?I’m glad you got it working, but 17 years ago I went down this path, same analysis that Dave laid out, and got nowhere. ?Buck/Boost transformer cleared everything up.
All and especially Dave Kumm: ?
Thanks for the input. ?I checked the PP documentation and determined the manufactured leg, traced it, swapped wires to keep the T3 from the machine controls (trial & error there)…and voila…operational. ?Now I can return the brake board that Felder
said that I needed and most importantly, get busy making lots of furniture pieces.
Thanks, Terry
Dave: ?I checked the 3 prongs at the plug, they read 120, 120, and 208…I have no idea how to move the 208 from the control circuit? ?The Dual spins the right way. ?Terry
I do not know industrial setups. It would definitely be worthwhile to measure all 3 outputs of the PP, phase to phase.
My assumption was that PP is receiving 208VAC phase to phase, if such a thing exists. If so, it should create 208VAC 3rd leg.
On Jun 1, 2022, at 4:26 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
?
Check the output voltages on the PP.? The 208v only applies to a three phase application with three legs measuring 120v to ground vs 240 delta where the third leg measures 208v.? the two incoming legs still measure 120v to ground and the PP should manufacture
one leg at 208V that you don't want in the control circuit.? Dave
Imran: ?Year of production 2013, schematic shows 230V …no 208V tap. ?Brake board has no display window. ?Agreed on the low voltage…just no one can tell me how to re-set the machine parameters
to deal with the 208V. ?Terry
Terence,
My first guess would be that these voltages being low is the problem. Most digital circuits have low tolerance for low supply voltages.
What yr is your machine? Does your schematic show 208V tap?
Does your brake board flash any codes?
?Imran: ?The 5T1 does not have a 208V setting, only 230V with the +/-10%. ?Yes, it will start but not run. ?The secondary voltages on the right side of 5T1 are low, 20V although in the 30V slot. ?Terry
Terence,
Not sure what year is your machine but mine is from 2011. Because of some experiences, I can share some information that may be useful.
First, per the schematic the start function is built into the brake board. I have seen the brake board and it looks just the same as in my K975 (just higher current rating due to 7.53KW on dual51 vs 5.5KW on K975). I did have the brake board go
out on K975 and it would not start at all. It also blinked a 2 digit code, which I think was 55 but I am not positive. Point being it would not turn the motor, your case seems different.
Now there are 2 transformers in the machine. It would make perfect sense that on 5T1 you would need to move the L1 connection to 208V tab so all voltages shown on secondary are correct. You should be able to verify these voltages as well.
<image0.jpeg>
This is the 2T1, responsible for the 24VAC. It does not have a 208V tab. This would indicate to me that the 24VAC circuit is tolerant of 208V input.
<image2.jpeg>
HTH.
?All:
I need HELP. I moved my 7.35kw Dual 51 from a shop with 240V to a shop condo with 208V (two legs from a 3 phase utility supply to a single phase panel). ?The Dual runs on a Phase Perfect Phase converter. ?The Dual worked fine in the old shop but will not run
in the new...it starts up but when it hits full speed it shuts down.
I called Felder and they said to change the transformer tap to +10 to make up for the 208 to 230. ?This did nothing...same issue. ?Now the recommendation is to replace the brake board as this handles the task from start to run modes. ?I have no confidence in
that analysis as it worked just fine with 240V supply. ?In any case, since I am in the middle of a multi piece furniture production I absolutely must have the Dual operational. ?I ordered the brake board but want trouble shooting advice from some of the electrical
experts that know Felder and frequent the FOG.
Help!!
Best, Terry
|
Re: Dual 51 Electrical Problem
David, your reasoning is why I want the OP to check the output voltages to verify they are within spec for the machine.? Motors might run on lower voltage but they tend to get hot, especially the small frame motors used on newer machines.? The fix might well
be temporary and the need for a boost transformer could still be in the cards.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Dave’s approach never worked for me - even by switching the 24V transformer tap inside the machines to boost the output to the control circuits and moving the PP manufactured leg around.
?I’m glad you got it working, but 17 years ago I went down this path, same analysis that Dave laid out, and got nowhere. ?Buck/Boost transformer cleared everything up.
All and especially Dave Kumm: ?
Thanks for the input. ?I checked the PP documentation and determined the manufactured leg, traced it, swapped wires to keep the T3 from the machine controls (trial & error there)…and voila…operational. ?Now I can return the brake board that Felder
said that I needed and most importantly, get busy making lots of furniture pieces.
Thanks, Terry
Dave: ?I checked the 3 prongs at the plug, they read 120, 120, and 208…I have no idea how to move the 208 from the control circuit? ?The Dual spins the right way. ?Terry
I do not know industrial setups. It would definitely be worthwhile to measure all 3 outputs of the PP, phase to phase.
My assumption was that PP is receiving 208VAC phase to phase, if such a thing exists. If so, it should create 208VAC 3rd leg.
On Jun 1, 2022, at 4:26 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
?
Check the output voltages on the PP.? The 208v only applies to a three phase application with three legs measuring 120v to ground vs 240 delta where the third leg measures 208v.? the two incoming legs still measure 120v to ground and the PP should manufacture
one leg at 208V that you don't want in the control circuit.? Dave
Imran: ?Year of production 2013, schematic shows 230V …no 208V tap. ?Brake board has no display window. ?Agreed on the low voltage…just no one can tell me how to re-set the machine parameters
to deal with the 208V. ?Terry
Terence,
My first guess would be that these voltages being low is the problem. Most digital circuits have low tolerance for low supply voltages.
What yr is your machine? Does your schematic show 208V tap?
Does your brake board flash any codes?
?Imran: ?The 5T1 does not have a 208V setting, only 230V with the +/-10%. ?Yes, it will start but not run. ?The secondary voltages on the right side of 5T1 are low, 20V although in the 30V slot. ?Terry
Terence,
Not sure what year is your machine but mine is from 2011. Because of some experiences, I can share some information that may be useful.
First, per the schematic the start function is built into the brake board. I have seen the brake board and it looks just the same as in my K975 (just higher current rating due to 7.53KW on dual51 vs 5.5KW on K975). I did have the brake board go
out on K975 and it would not start at all. It also blinked a 2 digit code, which I think was 55 but I am not positive. Point being it would not turn the motor, your case seems different.
Now there are 2 transformers in the machine. It would make perfect sense that on 5T1 you would need to move the L1 connection to 208V tab so all voltages shown on secondary are correct. You should be able to verify these voltages as well.
<image0.jpeg>
This is the 2T1, responsible for the 24VAC. It does not have a 208V tab. This would indicate to me that the 24VAC circuit is tolerant of 208V input.
<image2.jpeg>
HTH.
?All:
I need HELP. I moved my 7.35kw Dual 51 from a shop with 240V to a shop condo with 208V (two legs from a 3 phase utility supply to a single phase panel). ?The Dual runs on a Phase Perfect Phase converter. ?The Dual worked fine in the old shop but will not run
in the new...it starts up but when it hits full speed it shuts down.
I called Felder and they said to change the transformer tap to +10 to make up for the 208 to 230. ?This did nothing...same issue. ?Now the recommendation is to replace the brake board as this handles the task from start to run modes. ?I have no confidence in
that analysis as it worked just fine with 240V supply. ?In any case, since I am in the middle of a multi piece furniture production I absolutely must have the Dual operational. ?I ordered the brake board but want trouble shooting advice from some of the electrical
experts that know Felder and frequent the FOG.
Help!!
Best, Terry
|
Re: Dual 51 Electrical Problem
Dave’s approach never worked for me - even by switching the 24V transformer tap inside the machines to boost the output to the control circuits and moving the PP manufactured leg around. ?I’m glad you got it working, but 17 years ago I went down this path, same analysis that Dave laid out, and got nowhere. ?Buck/Boost transformer cleared everything up.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
All and especially Dave Kumm: ?
Thanks for the input. ?I checked the PP documentation and determined the manufactured leg, traced it, swapped wires to keep the T3 from the machine controls (trial & error there)…and voila…operational. ?Now I can return the brake board that Felder said that I needed and most importantly, get busy making lots of furniture pieces.
Thanks, Terry
Dave: ?I checked the 3 prongs at the plug, they read 120, 120, and 208…I have no idea how to move the 208 from the control circuit? ?The Dual spins the right way. ?Terry
I do not know industrial setups. It would definitely be worthwhile to measure all 3 outputs of the PP, phase to phase.
My assumption was that PP is receiving 208VAC phase to phase, if such a thing exists. If so, it should create 208VAC 3rd leg. On Jun 1, 2022, at 4:26 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote: ?
Check the output voltages on the PP.? The 208v only applies to a three phase application with three legs measuring 120v to ground vs 240 delta where the third leg measures 208v.? the two incoming legs still measure 120v to ground and the PP should manufacture
one leg at 208V that you don't want in the control circuit.? Dave
Imran: ?Year of production 2013, schematic shows 230V …no 208V tap. ?Brake board has no display window. ?Agreed on the low voltage…just no one can tell me how to re-set the machine parameters
to deal with the 208V. ?Terry
Terence,
My first guess would be that these voltages being low is the problem. Most digital circuits have low tolerance for low supply voltages.
What yr is your machine? Does your schematic show 208V tap?
Does your brake board flash any codes?
?Imran: ?The 5T1 does not have a 208V setting, only 230V with the +/-10%. ?Yes, it will start but not run. ?The secondary voltages on the right side of 5T1 are low, 20V although in the 30V slot. ?Terry
Terence,
Not sure what year is your machine but mine is from 2011. Because of some experiences, I can share some information that may be useful.
First, per the schematic the start function is built into the brake board. I have seen the brake board and it looks just the same as in my K975 (just higher current rating due to 7.53KW on dual51 vs 5.5KW on K975). I did have the brake board go
out on K975 and it would not start at all. It also blinked a 2 digit code, which I think was 55 but I am not positive. Point being it would not turn the motor, your case seems different.
Now there are 2 transformers in the machine. It would make perfect sense that on 5T1 you would need to move the L1 connection to 208V tab so all voltages shown on secondary are correct. You should be able to verify these voltages as well.
<image0.jpeg>
This is the 2T1, responsible for the 24VAC. It does not have a 208V tab. This would indicate to me that the 24VAC circuit is tolerant of 208V input.
<image2.jpeg>
HTH.
?All:
I need HELP. I moved my 7.35kw Dual 51 from a shop with 240V to a shop condo with 208V (two legs from a 3 phase utility supply to a single phase panel). ?The Dual runs on a Phase Perfect Phase converter. ?The Dual worked fine in the old shop but will not run
in the new...it starts up but when it hits full speed it shuts down.
I called Felder and they said to change the transformer tap to +10 to make up for the 208 to 230. ?This did nothing...same issue. ?Now the recommendation is to replace the brake board as this handles the task from start to run modes. ?I have no confidence in
that analysis as it worked just fine with 240V supply. ?In any case, since I am in the middle of a multi piece furniture production I absolutely must have the Dual operational. ?I ordered the brake board but want trouble shooting advice from some of the electrical
experts that know Felder and frequent the FOG.
Help!!
Best, Terry
|
Re: Dual 51 Electrical Problem
Now that the machine is up and running, I'd check the voltages between the three legs and see what you have ( T1-T2, T2-T3, T1-T3 ) .? Compare to what is on the motor plate to see if you are within 10% .? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
All and especially Dave Kumm: ?
Thanks for the input. ?I checked the PP documentation and determined the manufactured leg, traced it, swapped wires to keep the T3 from the machine controls (trial & error there)…and voila…operational. ?Now I can return the brake board that Felder
said that I needed and most importantly, get busy making lots of furniture pieces.
Thanks, Terry
Dave: ?I checked the 3 prongs at the plug, they read 120, 120, and 208…I have no idea how to move the 208 from the control circuit? ?The Dual spins the right way. ?Terry
I do not know industrial setups. It would definitely be worthwhile to measure all 3 outputs of the PP, phase to phase.
My assumption was that PP is receiving 208VAC phase to phase, if such a thing exists. If so, it should create 208VAC 3rd leg.
On Jun 1, 2022, at 4:26 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
?
Check the output voltages on the PP.? The 208v only applies to a three phase application with three legs measuring 120v to ground vs 240 delta where the third leg measures 208v.? the two incoming legs still measure 120v to ground and the PP should manufacture
one leg at 208V that you don't want in the control circuit.? Dave
Imran: ?Year of production 2013, schematic shows 230V …no 208V tap. ?Brake board has no display window. ?Agreed on the low voltage…just no one can tell me how to re-set the machine parameters
to deal with the 208V. ?Terry
Terence,
My first guess would be that these voltages being low is the problem. Most digital circuits have low tolerance for low supply voltages.
What yr is your machine? Does your schematic show 208V tap?
Does your brake board flash any codes?
?Imran: ?The 5T1 does not have a 208V setting, only 230V with the +/-10%. ?Yes, it will start but not run. ?The secondary voltages on the right side of 5T1 are low, 20V although in the 30V slot. ?Terry
Terence,
Not sure what year is your machine but mine is from 2011. Because of some experiences, I can share some information that may be useful.
First, per the schematic the start function is built into the brake board. I have seen the brake board and it looks just the same as in my K975 (just higher current rating due to 7.53KW on dual51 vs 5.5KW on K975). I did have the brake board go
out on K975 and it would not start at all. It also blinked a 2 digit code, which I think was 55 but I am not positive. Point being it would not turn the motor, your case seems different.
Now there are 2 transformers in the machine. It would make perfect sense that on 5T1 you would need to move the L1 connection to 208V tab so all voltages shown on secondary are correct. You should be able to verify these voltages as well.
<image0.jpeg>
This is the 2T1, responsible for the 24VAC. It does not have a 208V tab. This would indicate to me that the 24VAC circuit is tolerant of 208V input.
<image2.jpeg>
HTH.
?All:
I need HELP. I moved my 7.35kw Dual 51 from a shop with 240V to a shop condo with 208V (two legs from a 3 phase utility supply to a single phase panel). ?The Dual runs on a Phase Perfect Phase converter. ?The Dual worked fine in the old shop but will not run
in the new...it starts up but when it hits full speed it shuts down.
I called Felder and they said to change the transformer tap to +10 to make up for the 208 to 230. ?This did nothing...same issue. ?Now the recommendation is to replace the brake board as this handles the task from start to run modes. ?I have no confidence in
that analysis as it worked just fine with 240V supply. ?In any case, since I am in the middle of a multi piece furniture production I absolutely must have the Dual operational. ?I ordered the brake board but want trouble shooting advice from some of the electrical
experts that know Felder and frequent the FOG.
Help!!
Best, Terry
|
Re: Dual 51 Electrical Problem
Terrence,
Glad you are up and running. Since we really want to learn from each other I am not exactly sure what was your issue.
One possibility is that the input to the PP was incorrect as described in the PP manual and when you swapped wires it fixed it. Although, in this scenario PP would be shutting down, not the Felder.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jun 1, 2022, at 9:18 PM, Terence via groups.io <terencewoolston@...> wrote: ?
All and especially Dave Kumm: ?
Thanks for the input. ?I checked the PP documentation and determined the manufactured leg, traced it, swapped wires to keep the T3 from the machine controls (trial & error there)…and voila…operational. ?Now I can return the brake board that Felder said that I needed and most importantly, get busy making lots of furniture pieces.
Thanks, Terry
Dave: ?I checked the 3 prongs at the plug, they read 120, 120, and 208…I have no idea how to move the 208 from the control circuit? ?The Dual spins the right way. ?Terry
I do not know industrial setups. It would definitely be worthwhile to measure all 3 outputs of the PP, phase to phase.
My assumption was that PP is receiving 208VAC phase to phase, if such a thing exists. If so, it should create 208VAC 3rd leg. On Jun 1, 2022, at 4:26 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote: ?
Check the output voltages on the PP.? The 208v only applies to a three phase application with three legs measuring 120v to ground vs 240 delta where the third leg measures 208v.? the two incoming legs still measure 120v to ground and the PP should manufacture
one leg at 208V that you don't want in the control circuit.? Dave
Imran: ?Year of production 2013, schematic shows 230V …no 208V tap. ?Brake board has no display window. ?Agreed on the low voltage…just no one can tell me how to re-set the machine parameters
to deal with the 208V. ?Terry
Terence,
My first guess would be that these voltages being low is the problem. Most digital circuits have low tolerance for low supply voltages.
What yr is your machine? Does your schematic show 208V tap?
Does your brake board flash any codes?
?Imran: ?The 5T1 does not have a 208V setting, only 230V with the +/-10%. ?Yes, it will start but not run. ?The secondary voltages on the right side of 5T1 are low, 20V although in the 30V slot. ?Terry
Terence,
Not sure what year is your machine but mine is from 2011. Because of some experiences, I can share some information that may be useful.
First, per the schematic the start function is built into the brake board. I have seen the brake board and it looks just the same as in my K975 (just higher current rating due to 7.53KW on dual51 vs 5.5KW on K975). I did have the brake board go
out on K975 and it would not start at all. It also blinked a 2 digit code, which I think was 55 but I am not positive. Point being it would not turn the motor, your case seems different.
Now there are 2 transformers in the machine. It would make perfect sense that on 5T1 you would need to move the L1 connection to 208V tab so all voltages shown on secondary are correct. You should be able to verify these voltages as well.
<image0.jpeg>
This is the 2T1, responsible for the 24VAC. It does not have a 208V tab. This would indicate to me that the 24VAC circuit is tolerant of 208V input.
<image2.jpeg>
HTH.
?All:
I need HELP. I moved my 7.35kw Dual 51 from a shop with 240V to a shop condo with 208V (two legs from a 3 phase utility supply to a single phase panel). ?The Dual runs on a Phase Perfect Phase converter. ?The Dual worked fine in the old shop but will not run
in the new...it starts up but when it hits full speed it shuts down.
I called Felder and they said to change the transformer tap to +10 to make up for the 208 to 230. ?This did nothing...same issue. ?Now the recommendation is to replace the brake board as this handles the task from start to run modes. ?I have no confidence in
that analysis as it worked just fine with 240V supply. ?In any case, since I am in the middle of a multi piece furniture production I absolutely must have the Dual operational. ?I ordered the brake board but want trouble shooting advice from some of the electrical
experts that know Felder and frequent the FOG.
Help!!
Best, Terry
|
Re: Dual 51 Electrical Problem
All and especially Dave Kumm: ?
Thanks for the input. ?I checked the PP documentation and determined the manufactured leg, traced it, swapped wires to keep the T3 from the machine controls (trial & error there)…and voila…operational. ?Now I can return the brake board that Felder said that I needed and most importantly, get busy making lots of furniture pieces.
Thanks, Terry
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Dave: ?I checked the 3 prongs at the plug, they read 120, 120, and 208…I have no idea how to move the 208 from the control circuit? ?The Dual spins the right way. ?Terry
I do not know industrial setups. It would definitely be worthwhile to measure all 3 outputs of the PP, phase to phase.
My assumption was that PP is receiving 208VAC phase to phase, if such a thing exists. If so, it should create 208VAC 3rd leg. On Jun 1, 2022, at 4:26 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote: ?
Check the output voltages on the PP.? The 208v only applies to a three phase application with three legs measuring 120v to ground vs 240 delta where the third leg measures 208v.? the two incoming legs still measure 120v to ground and the PP should manufacture
one leg at 208V that you don't want in the control circuit.? Dave
Imran: ?Year of production 2013, schematic shows 230V …no 208V tap. ?Brake board has no display window. ?Agreed on the low voltage…just no one can tell me how to re-set the machine parameters
to deal with the 208V. ?Terry
Terence,
My first guess would be that these voltages being low is the problem. Most digital circuits have low tolerance for low supply voltages.
What yr is your machine? Does your schematic show 208V tap?
Does your brake board flash any codes?
?Imran: ?The 5T1 does not have a 208V setting, only 230V with the +/-10%. ?Yes, it will start but not run. ?The secondary voltages on the right side of 5T1 are low, 20V although in the 30V slot. ?Terry
Terence,
Not sure what year is your machine but mine is from 2011. Because of some experiences, I can share some information that may be useful.
First, per the schematic the start function is built into the brake board. I have seen the brake board and it looks just the same as in my K975 (just higher current rating due to 7.53KW on dual51 vs 5.5KW on K975). I did have the brake board go
out on K975 and it would not start at all. It also blinked a 2 digit code, which I think was 55 but I am not positive. Point being it would not turn the motor, your case seems different.
Now there are 2 transformers in the machine. It would make perfect sense that on 5T1 you would need to move the L1 connection to 208V tab so all voltages shown on secondary are correct. You should be able to verify these voltages as well.
<image0.jpeg>
This is the 2T1, responsible for the 24VAC. It does not have a 208V tab. This would indicate to me that the 24VAC circuit is tolerant of 208V input.
<image2.jpeg>
HTH.
?All:
I need HELP. I moved my 7.35kw Dual 51 from a shop with 240V to a shop condo with 208V (two legs from a 3 phase utility supply to a single phase panel). ?The Dual runs on a Phase Perfect Phase converter. ?The Dual worked fine in the old shop but will not run
in the new...it starts up but when it hits full speed it shuts down.
I called Felder and they said to change the transformer tap to +10 to make up for the 208 to 230. ?This did nothing...same issue. ?Now the recommendation is to replace the brake board as this handles the task from start to run modes. ?I have no confidence in
that analysis as it worked just fine with 240V supply. ?In any case, since I am in the middle of a multi piece furniture production I absolutely must have the Dual operational. ?I ordered the brake board but want trouble shooting advice from some of the electrical
experts that know Felder and frequent the FOG.
Help!!
Best, Terry
|
Re: Dual 51 Electrical Problem
fwiw, 208v is not "low voltage" in the sense of some defect.? ? It's just a different electrical distribution system.? It's very common in certain industries, for example, IT data centers.
As David says, you need a transformer to boost to 240v.? ?Generally speaking, systems designed for 240v cannot run on 208v.
|
Tom Gensmer
Dan Gavrilyuk
David P. Best
Bill Belanger
imran
