On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 02:09 PM, david@... wrote:

Sang Luu’s first reply to your query is what makes the most common sense.

Yes!? ?You need not read further than Sang's first reply (but if you did read more, you should the corrections to the other replies? ;-)?

It's not a bad idea!

I visited their factory in Tirol and it was *the best* grown up activity I've done in recent years. Super inspiring to see all their big machines and more interestingly how our machines come to life. It makes you believe (perhaps falsely) that you, too, can make such things...we can and should dream right?

Compared to the Martin WWII tank factory, the Felder production facility is breathtakingly modern. But my guess is that Felder's engineering NIH attitudes would drive you bonkers. They have a proven track record of disinterest in input from the user community.

David Best

It's not a bad idea!

I visited their factory in Tirol and it was *the best* grown up activity I've done in recent years. Super inspiring to see all their big machines and more interestingly how our machines come to life. It makes you believe (perhaps falsely) that you, too, can make such things...we can and should dream right??

Maybe you should start working for Felder!

Looks super cool..
PK

I'm jelly!?

Working on on a poor man's retrofit for my saw, with just a small set of functionality. We'll see how it goes!?

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> would be the Felder tech getting here to prow morning and telling me he won’t touch?my machine if I cannot plug it in to a 30-amp circuit.

How would the tech even know?? ?Is it not already connected to power?? And how?is it connected?? Did it come with a plug?? Did you attach a plug?? Are you hard-wiring into a junction box?? ?

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:43 AM, Mark Kessler wrote

>飞辞耻濒诲苍’迟 we want to know what the motor protection is as well?

No.? A circuit breaker's only function is to protect the wires from the breaker to the device (here, a table saw.)? The circuit breaker has no role whatsoever in protecting the saw, its motor(s), its control systems, its accessories, etc.? Protection of the machine's own components must be designed into the machine itself.? This is a very widely misunderstood fact.

> 肠辞耻濒诲苍’迟 we want to know what the motor protection is as well?

Mark, I went back and read the post and your right I didn't answer the question.
If that was a dedicated 20A circuit he could most likely get away with using it.
I would run a separate dedicated circuit just to be on the safe side?

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I doubt your tech will care.? When it's all said and done, as has been noted:

• the breaker protects the wiring
• the saw will attempt to run on any wiring you give it, whether sized correctly or not
  

Worst case:? the breaker trips because the saw's draw is more than the breaker wants to allow.

I did not mean to poke a hornet’s nest here! The discussion has been most interesting, though.

The NEC is really complicated. My background is the AASHTO Bridge code and the structural portions of the Uniform Building Code, so I will rely on my favorite electrician for advice and recommendations regarding electrical issues. Unfortunately he is at Disneyland with his kids this week, so it will be two weeks before I can get answers.

When I do get his interpretation I will post it here for your reading pleasure.

Probably the worst case scenario for me in the short term would be the Felder tech getting here to prow morning and telling me he won’t touch my machine if I cannot plug it in to a 30-amp circuit.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S, and expecting an A941 in April 2022

-- 
Michael Garrison Stuber

I did not mean to poke a hornet’s nest here! The discussion has been most interesting, though.

The NEC is really complicated. My background is the AASHTO Bridge code and the structural portions of the Uniform Building Code, so I will rely on my favorite electrician for advice and recommendations regarding electrical issues. Unfortunately he is at Disneyland with his kids this week, so it will be two weeks before I can get answers.

When I do get his interpretation I will post it here for your reading pleasure.

Probably the worst case scenario for me in the short term would be the Felder tech getting here to prow morning and telling me he won’t touch my machine if I cannot plug it in to a 30-amp circuit.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S, and expecting an A941 in April 2022

Bill, at risk of being annoyingly repetitive, I would again note that you're not addressing the poster's question.? ?You are providing perfectly good advice for someone who is planning to install a new circuit, but that was not the question.??

Everyone here agrees, if installing new circuits, use those rules of thumb, which yield 30 amp (or maybe go larger, looking ahead at growth)

But to poster's actual question, I say don't waste your time and money replacing the existing 20amp circuit.

> Care to share the relevant code?

The NEC is of nearly Quranic complexity.? ?Almost nothing can be definitely demonstrated by quoting simple fragments.? Every other sentence in the NEC references other sections, footnotes, and exceptions that have to followed and considered.? There are critical, but undefined terms, like "fixed".? Careful attention to conjunctions is required -- the rules for calculating load on "motor circuit" are totally different than a circuit that has motors "and" other loads (if you plug in a 1 watt LED clock, it changes how you calculate motor loads?). It is riddled with unexplained arbitrary footnotes, like the ampacity table that says 12 gauge allows 25 amps, but has a footnote that says 25 amp breakers are not allowed for 12 gauge, with absolutely no explanation why.? Despite its seeming comprehensiveness, there's tremendous gaps and ambiguity.? What type of facility even is a woodworking shop?? The NEC has categories for armories and barber shops, but not for woodworking shops, let alone home garage shops.?The NEC isn't even published publicly, because there's an industry racket to sell it, sell interpretation experts, etc.??

FOG isn't a place for detailed NEC discussions.

It is reasonable of course to share general principles and widely accepted rules of thumb.? The original poster's question is in this category .? He asked if he should "expect problems" with his new 3kW motor table saw on a 20 amp circuit.? There's lots of responses to standardize on 30 amp plugs, or standardize on this gauge or that, or use surface mounted conduit, or paint it to match the walls, or brand X or Y... all of which is reasonable in and of itself, but none of which directly addressed his question.?

I wanted to answer his question.? He didn't say what he thought a "problem" would be, but presumably he meant:

1) burn down his house
No, there is no way that a 20amp circuit is unsafe here.

2) be thrown in jail for code violations
No, although an electrician or an inspector might tell him he must install a 30 amp circuit.? Or they might not,? Depends.? ?I don't believe they would cite a definitive NEC reference for this, but it would certainly not be an uncommon to hear this, and the law ultimately says that whatever the "Authority Having Jurisdiction" says trumps the code book.? So if you're getting a permit, don't seek advice on the internet, ask your building department.

3) cause problems for his saw
There is NO way it can hurt the saw.? ? ?

4) impede his enjoyment, like occasional breaker tripping
Very, very unlikely, but not impossible.? Depends on saw use, breaker brand and model, other loads on circuit, ambient temperature, etc.

I hope he gets to plug in his saw soon and try it out.

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I just received a call from Carl.? According to Felder at the Factory, my profil 45 will come with the new touch panel!

Hopefully we are still on target for the time frame!

PK

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Imran

I think Mark is coming at this technically and you are starting to get into the weeds with the code stuff, nothing wrong with that, but in this case figuring out what size breaker and wire gauge size is pretty straight forward. Just use what the manufacture recommends or absent of that, use what the motor rating is on the name plate for the voltage that motor will be connected too and use the 80% rule and you'll be good to go ?

Bill

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> I am not following how, per code, ...

You're not understanding the NEC after you glanced at some random decades-old document fragment (not NEC) that you found on the internet?

Hmm...
?