Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router
You got it- instead of cutting all the way through, stop ~ 1/8" shy. For instance,1.75" stock set to about 1.6" depth of cut, etc. Handheld router with .25" diameter bottom bearing router bit after removing from CNC table and flipping workpiece upside-down.?
Sorry for the rambling - just trying to impart almost 10 years CNC experience and enthusiasm in 10 sentences(!)
Jeff
|
I received mine 2-3 weeks ago. It’s a great unit overall. My only issue with it was the mitre gauge had a slight bow in it and is super over engineered and kind of a pain to set up. ?
|
Thanks for the explanation Jim. Actually, you got my attention because I wanted the rough sawn look for a project. My bandsaw produces a relatively smooth surface and if there are markings they don’t resemble the rough sawn markings one gets from band mills. Some suggest bending one tooth on the blade and then feeding wood in reverse to get similar markings but I have not tried that.
Imran
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Show quoted text
On May 25, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Jim Fleming <jameshfleming@...> wrote: ? Hi, Imran.? My reference to "off-tkoihe-saw" was really just pre-first-cup-of-coffee for off the saw.??
And I referred to adjusting the table when what really happens on the FB510 is you adjust the front rail which controls the alignment of the fence versus the blade.??
As for blade marks, my best results are when I have glued my workpiece to a full-length torsion box with a sacrificial facing of masonite?or fiberboard.? The weight of the torsion box helps me to maintain a steady rate of feed and consistent contact between the workpiece and the fence.? That helps to avoid the stop and start saw marks.
Nevertheless, some saw marks seem to be inevitable.? Therefore, I try to cut at about 1/8" so I can run the veneers through a drum sander (mine is a SuperMax) to get a consistent?3/32" thickness and a good gluing surface.?
? ? ?Jim ? ??
James H. Fleming
|
On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 08:04 AM, Bill James wrote:
Are you sure:
Price for a fat 300 equivalent on Ruwi web site seems to be 1,500 Euro + Tax + Shipping. Looks like the same price as what is quoted on the us felder shop website with the top at $400 ($2,000 total) if you get it from any of their warehouses in the US. Shipping From Germany to any east ports in the USA is not cheap.
My pricing was based on buying the Ruwi in Europe and got it ships to the USA (east coast) vs buying it on Felder online shop for the USA and picking it up in one of their warehouses in the USA. Apologize if your pricing was for Australia or any other country than the USA (including Canada). Bill
|
Hey Lucky,? Speak to the guy at Craftsman Hardware here in Melbourne. He sells Ruwi stuff and has the Fat tables , clamping kits etc (Ruwi) ?They are a bit cheaper than Felder direct ?
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On 26 May 2021, at 8:51 am, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
? More information please.
RUWI are not readily available in Australia, as far as I am aware?
If you brought it in yourself, does your $1950 include: - taxes? - duty? - freight?
$1950 sounds great. Is that in Australian Dollars?
im in australia
felder fat 300 is over 4k
i got my ruwi (identical) for $1950
cheers
|
Hi, Imran.? My reference to "off-tkoihe-saw" was really just pre-first-cup-of-coffee for off the saw.??
And I referred to adjusting the table when what really happens on the FB510 is you adjust the front rail which controls the alignment of the fence versus the blade.??
As for blade marks, my best results are when I have glued my workpiece to a full-length torsion box with a sacrificial facing of masonite?or fiberboard.? The weight of the torsion box helps me to maintain a steady rate of feed and consistent contact between the workpiece and the fence.? That helps to avoid the stop and start saw marks.
Nevertheless, some saw marks seem to be inevitable.? Therefore, I try to cut at about 1/8" so I can run the veneers through a drum sander (mine is a SuperMax) to get a consistent?3/32" thickness and a good gluing surface.?
? ? ?Jim ? ??
James H. Fleming
|
More information please.
RUWI are not readily available in Australia, as far as I am aware?
If you brought it in yourself, does your $1950 include: - taxes? - duty? - freight?
$1950 sounds great. Is that in Australian Dollars?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
im in australia
felder fat 300 is over 4k
i got my ruwi (identical) for $1950
cheers
|
im in australia
felder fat 300 is over 4k
i got my ruwi (identical) for $1950
cheers
|
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 01:32 PM, Jeff Roltgen wrote:
simply leave hardwoods with that 1/8" skin completely around the parts, or things just get away from you on the CNC table.?
Follow up is flush-trimming to release parts
Jeff, Thanks for your feedback, I have hard time to visualize this method. Are you leaving 1/8" at the bottom of your cuts and then use a manual router to flush trim the piece on the CNC? Sorry if my question looks stupid. Bill
|
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router
For hardwoods, I use the one foot area past the 48" "Y" axis, as I've got a 60" wide table. It has it's own separate vacuum zone, which is seldom used, hence the sacrifice. Plywood scrap screwed (with recesses) to main spoilboard in this area. Blank to be milled is 2" over length on each end, giving ample room for deeply countersunk screws to go into this supplementary spoilboard, staying outside planned toolpath zone. This is usually done for chair parts, with typical blank size at 8x42. On some more involved pieces, I may pause half-way through cutting to add a screw in a central area that cutting is complete and I know will not be in the spinning bit's path for remainder of the part file. This is necessary occasionally when the middle section is down to the 1/8" thickness left after cutting and looseness is introduced as the bit is working it's way around 8/4 stock. I've stopped using tabs and simply leave hardwoods with that 1/8" skin completely around the parts, or things just get away from you on the CNC table. All mortising that can be done on top face is done prior to cutout toolpath on the cnc as well.
Follow up is flush-trimming to release parts, proceeding to sanding stage. Realize, at this point the CNC has eliminated tracing, band-sawing, template making and pattern routing, but it still needs every bit of sanding. Modern bits can do a good job- for 8/4, my go to is a $75 1/2" spiral up-cut chipbreaker, but still, a 1/2" bit doesn't compare to a clean edge coming off a spiral head jointer, and tear out still can pop up fairly regularly.?
It has been mentioned that you can expect radius corners inside right angles, but you also need to deliberately draft the inverse on outside corners - think of it as adding an ear at a 90 degree or more acute angles of turn as bit shifts from "ripping" direction to cross cutting. Took more than a few attempts to figure out that strategy for taming tear-out on those types of cross-cuts. Again, highest quality top dollar bits are still not going to give you a finish-ready surface by any means.?
?
That's just my strategy. Can't imagine being stuck with all this for simply ripping/crosscutting straight stock, not to mention the bowing and twisting that can occur with even the most innocent looking slabs of lumber. Naturally, sheet goods processing is quite a breeze on cnc by comparison.?
FWIW: I immediately built Gary C's black box vac about 10 years ago when I first got the cnc as he (fortunately) had just shared his plans for it on the Shopbot forum around that time. Noisy - sure, but it's still working just fine after all these years. Makes the shop nice and toasty in the cold winter months as it howls away, and for some reason, I just cannot get over my fascination with the magic of vacuum. Don't get me started on using it for veneering and curved work...
jeff?
|
I use several of these:  And a smaller version  ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??  Ariel
|
Leigh,
? ? ? ? ?Check out Manor Wood on U-tube, there is a fourteen minute very favourable video review from guy who really knows his stuff.
Trevor
|
I’ve had it for about 4-5 months, works great. Easy set up, the base is lighter than other felder machines I have but is plenty heavy and doesn’t walk on you. Storage would be the only downside I can see with the machine. Compared to other machines at this price range I think this is the best option. only other advice is that it does not have ability to do the standard mobility kit, still need to work out that part myself but something to think about for planning purposes.?
?
|
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router
I have the ShopSabre F4 vacuum unit which sounds suspiciously exactly the same as the Hurricane one. It's 4 5hp motors 220v single phase and individual?selection whether you need 1, 2, 3, or 4 motors,?and you start them individually?so you get stepped amp?draw on startup. I have it on a 30A circuit that's?never tripped. Also handy is the fact that it can pull sawdust through the unit rather than filter and clogging. It plenums into the machine with 4" PVC pipe and rubber FernCo couplers nice and easy and vibration mitigating. I liked having this be single phase to balance some of my 3 phase power demands. I do not like that it SCREAMS at a very annoying pitch, and that it tops out in practice about 10-10.5" inHg. Lower surface areas and irregular surfaces can prevent adequate vacuum hold with smaller parts and I will slow down feed rates to?keep lateral forces from going dynamic. I plan to upgrade in the future to a higher-vacuum 10 or 15hp Becker which is 3-phase but also substantially more $$$. the bad thing about the larger vacuums is that they aren't designed to start/stop frequently like you do when running lots of sheet goods, whereas the F4 you can start/stop at will without much danger with the small motors. If anyone ever wants to buy my F4 unit, I'd be willing to talk.?
For vacuum partioning, my 4x8 table is divided into 2x4 zones (4 total) and I like being able to isolate one over the other or open all zones up to optimize vacuum flow where needed. Most of the time 1 motor per zone is good enough, but I'll often run 2 just to have a little extra if there's already open vac area. For a full covered spoilboard, 2 motors is often all that's needed and if it can keep the kerfs onion-skinned until the last step, anything more than 2 motors is just insurance.
I also have the Raptor plastic nail system. My thoughts are that it's AWESOME for the right application, but not hardwoods and it's not always got great hold. It does have excellent properties in thin soft boards and most non-plastic laminated sheet goods. Many times I use a few scrap piece of plywood or MDF to snug up clamping cauls to the pieces in that don't nail well, and that gets around most problems including the holes in the finished pieces.?
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 6:05 PM Michael Garrison Stuber < mtgstuber@...> wrote:
With my MFT style grid, I've used brass screws coming up from
underneath.? Even cheaper and the screws are reusable.? If for
some reason I'm wrong about where the cutter is going to go, the
brass is soft enough to not be a disaster.?
On 5/24/2021 3:53 PM, Brian Lamb wrote:
Yep, another option. Gun is expensive, $300 or so, and you might
have to pre-drill holes on Melamine and any hardwoods.
On May 24, 2021, at 3:40 PM, Alex Bowlds < aabj@...> wrote:
Talking about hold downs for CNC
work...? This company makes plastic staples and nails, and
the guns to drive them.? I saw them ?marketed specifically
for CNC hold down applications.? Until I researched them,
I didn’t know they were available for other applications
as well.? You still get the nail hole, but you don’t have
to be concerned with tooling hitting the plastic nail.
If the nail hole is not a deal breaker,
these plastic nails will make holding down sheet goods
pretty easy, and a lot cheaper than the vacuum system
and associated electrical load issues.
Good luck,
Alex
On May 24, 2021, at
2:51 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...>
wrote:
?
I don't have the neighbor problem (other
than my lovely wife and the mountain fauna) but
being off-grid, power draw is a constant concern.?
I tap out at about 12kw total simultaneous
consumption which has to cover the CNC, the
spindle, and the dust collection, so I've
basically stuck with mechanical holddowns, but if
I could get away with 2500 watts for doing sheet
goods, I might actually have enough power to do
it.
On 5/24/2021 2:43 PM,
Brian Lamb wrote:
I just got it hooked up the other day, and my son
stole my clamp on amp meter yesterday… so I’ll
have to wit until I get it back from him. The
paperwork I have from Black Box says the motors
are 7.5amps, and there are four inside the
Hurricane, so it’s supposed to draw 30amps. That
would be all pipes wide open, which you won’t run
that way, you’ll zone down and probably be sucking
thru the spoil board and have parts stuck on top,
so you will most likely be drawing 20-25 amps most
of the time in use, that’s with 4 motors running
and from what I hear, if I’m cutting full 4x8
sheets, I can run two motors and get enough hold
down. Then you’d be drawing 10-12 amps type of
thing.
One bad thing… it’s noisy… I won’t
be running it without the shop doors all shut or
the neighbors will get real tired of it, real
fast. The vane style pumps are quite a bit less
noise… but again, this is what I found (used)
and could afford, both monetarily and electrical
draw.
On May 24, 2021, at 2:00 PM,
Michael Garrison Stuber < mtgstuber@...>
wrote:
Brian,
??? I really appreciate the
tip to the Hurricane unit.? I didn't
know it existed.? Have you ever
measured how many amps the system
draws in practice?
On
5/24/2021 9:29 AM, Brian Lamb wrote:
1. CNC is indeed repeatable, results
vary somewhat with size of end mills,
depth of cut and feed rates. Good
methods and practices are still
required though.
2. Software is ?great,
just depends upon what you want to
pay. Mozaik is probably the best out
there, but it will cost you
$125-$150 a month subscription fee
to do what you want. I found another
option as I don’t need the fancy
visualization/rendering software for
customer presentations. Cabinet
Parts Pro, I think it’s called, free
to try (will do up to so many sheets
of material at once) or $250 for the
full version. As for how long it
takes, not very much… I did a two
drawer box, blind dado construction
and even made the drawer boxes as a
first test and had it done in an
hour on the computer, then took way
less than 30 minutes to cut it out….
and that was the very first time
using the software.
3. You don’t need 50hp
vacuum pumps. I went with a Black
Box Hurricane, runs on 220V single
phase less than 30 amps. It pulls
11” of vacuum and is more than
adequate for a 4x8 machine cutting
sheet goods. If you want to cut
solid wood, buy pods and get a
decent sized vacuum pump like a
Welch, or even an air powered vacuum
generator, although those suck a lot
of CFM of air.
I’ve lusted
after a CNC for 20 years
for my hobby shop. I am
an engineer who has
worked in high tech for
36 years so the CNC
stuff is definitely of
interest.? As I’ve dug
in a few things I’ve
concluded;
- CNC
ideal for precision
- CNC
of sheet goods is
awesome with the right
software
- Holding
down material is
critical.? Big sheet
good CNCs use huge
vacuum pumps, like
50HP.? Hardwood, I
expect would be
fiddly. If you got a
high end CNC with
movable vacuum pods
maybe.
- With
CNC you go from human
dexterity skills to
CAD skills
?
In the end I
keep thinking for the
kind of things I build,
furniture and cabinets,
it would take a lot
longer to do with a CNC
with a high percentage
of that time spent on
the computer.? That
said, unless I am
building a cabinet to
fit in specific place I
don’t really do plans or
cut lists.
?
?
Hi,
I am trying to find a
replacement for my sliding
table saw that takes less
space but still allows to
build hardwood furnitures,
builtins, closet systems,
kitchen cabinets.. I am
not interested in a
standard table saw and I
plan to keep my
jointer/planer, miter saw
for some of the hardwood
task. I know that CNC
routers with flat bed are
really good for cabinet
box/sheet good, but it
seems that the new
machines with some pod
tables are able to manage
hardwood too. I am not a
production shop, just
looking to see if I can
reduce the footprint (2
times the sliding table
length, the rip capacity
and the outrigger).
If anyone has insight on
using a CNC for sheet good
and hardwood and would
like to share, I will
appreciate. In term of
machines, I am looking at
middle to high end version
from Shopsabre, CAmaster,
Freedom Patriot as they
all offer compact design
for a 4x8 table.
I know that there is a
learning curve from
software and cutting
technics (flow, order,
tooling, holding parts),
but as hobbyist I do not
see any issue with that.
Thanks for all feedback,
Bill?
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router
With my MFT style grid, I've used brass screws coming up from
underneath.? Even cheaper and the screws are reusable.? If for
some reason I'm wrong about where the cutter is going to go, the
brass is soft enough to not be a disaster.?
On 5/24/2021 3:53 PM, Brian Lamb wrote:
Yep, another option. Gun is expensive, $300 or so, and you might
have to pre-drill holes on Melamine and any hardwoods.
On May 24, 2021, at 3:40 PM, Alex Bowlds < aabj@...> wrote:
Talking about hold downs for CNC
work... ?This company makes plastic staples and nails, and
the guns to drive them. ?I saw them ?marketed specifically
for CNC hold down applications. ?Until I researched them,
I didn’t know they were available for other applications
as well. ?You still get the nail hole, but you don’t have
to be concerned with tooling hitting the plastic nail.
If the nail hole is not a deal breaker,
these plastic nails will make holding down sheet goods
pretty easy, and a lot cheaper than the vacuum system
and associated electrical load issues.
Good luck,
Alex
On May 24, 2021, at
2:51 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...>
wrote:
?
I don't have the neighbor problem (other
than my lovely wife and the mountain fauna) but
being off-grid, power draw is a constant concern.?
I tap out at about 12kw total simultaneous
consumption which has to cover the CNC, the
spindle, and the dust collection, so I've
basically stuck with mechanical holddowns, but if
I could get away with 2500 watts for doing sheet
goods, I might actually have enough power to do
it.
On 5/24/2021 2:43 PM,
Brian Lamb wrote:
I just got it hooked up the other day, and my son
stole my clamp on amp meter yesterday… so I’ll
have to wit until I get it back from him. The
paperwork I have from Black Box says the motors
are 7.5amps, and there are four inside the
Hurricane, so it’s supposed to draw 30amps. That
would be all pipes wide open, which you won’t run
that way, you’ll zone down and probably be sucking
thru the spoil board and have parts stuck on top,
so you will most likely be drawing 20-25 amps most
of the time in use, that’s with 4 motors running
and from what I hear, if I’m cutting full 4x8
sheets, I can run two motors and get enough hold
down. Then you’d be drawing 10-12 amps type of
thing.
One bad thing… it’s noisy… I won’t
be running it without the shop doors all shut or
the neighbors will get real tired of it, real
fast. The vane style pumps are quite a bit less
noise… but again, this is what I found (used)
and could afford, both monetarily and electrical
draw.
On May 24, 2021, at 2:00 PM,
Michael Garrison Stuber < mtgstuber@...>
wrote:
Brian,
??? I really appreciate the
tip to the Hurricane unit.? I didn't
know it existed.? Have you ever
measured how many amps the system
draws in practice?
On
5/24/2021 9:29 AM, Brian Lamb wrote:
1. CNC is indeed repeatable, results
vary somewhat with size of end mills,
depth of cut and feed rates. Good
methods and practices are still
required though.
2. Software is ?great,
just depends upon what you want to
pay. Mozaik is probably the best out
there, but it will cost you
$125-$150 a month subscription fee
to do what you want. I found another
option as I don’t need the fancy
visualization/rendering software for
customer presentations. Cabinet
Parts Pro, I think it’s called, free
to try (will do up to so many sheets
of material at once) or $250 for the
full version. As for how long it
takes, not very much… I did a two
drawer box, blind dado construction
and even made the drawer boxes as a
first test and had it done in an
hour on the computer, then took way
less than 30 minutes to cut it out….
and that was the very first time
using the software.
3. You don’t need 50hp
vacuum pumps. I went with a Black
Box Hurricane, runs on 220V single
phase less than 30 amps. It pulls
11” of vacuum and is more than
adequate for a 4x8 machine cutting
sheet goods. If you want to cut
solid wood, buy pods and get a
decent sized vacuum pump like a
Welch, or even an air powered vacuum
generator, although those suck a lot
of CFM of air.
I’ve lusted
after a CNC for 20 years
for my hobby shop. I am
an engineer who has
worked in high tech for
36 years so the CNC
stuff is definitely of
interest.? As I’ve dug
in a few things I’ve
concluded;
- CNC
ideal for precision
- CNC
of sheet goods is
awesome with the right
software
- Holding
down material is
critical.? Big sheet
good CNCs use huge
vacuum pumps, like
50HP.? Hardwood, I
expect would be
fiddly. If you got a
high end CNC with
movable vacuum pods
maybe.
- With
CNC you go from human
dexterity skills to
CAD skills
?
In the end I
keep thinking for the
kind of things I build,
furniture and cabinets,
it would take a lot
longer to do with a CNC
with a high percentage
of that time spent on
the computer.? That
said, unless I am
building a cabinet to
fit in specific place I
don’t really do plans or
cut lists.
?
?
Hi,
I am trying to find a
replacement for my sliding
table saw that takes less
space but still allows to
build hardwood furnitures,
builtins, closet systems,
kitchen cabinets.. I am
not interested in a
standard table saw and I
plan to keep my
jointer/planer, miter saw
for some of the hardwood
task. I know that CNC
routers with flat bed are
really good for cabinet
box/sheet good, but it
seems that the new
machines with some pod
tables are able to manage
hardwood too. I am not a
production shop, just
looking to see if I can
reduce the footprint (2
times the sliding table
length, the rip capacity
and the outrigger).
If anyone has insight on
using a CNC for sheet good
and hardwood and would
like to share, I will
appreciate. In term of
machines, I am looking at
middle to high end version
from Shopsabre, CAmaster,
Freedom Patriot as they
all offer compact design
for a 4x8 table.
I know that there is a
learning curve from
software and cutting
technics (flow, order,
tooling, holding parts),
but as hobbyist I do not
see any issue with that.
Thanks for all feedback,
Bill?
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router
Yep, another option. Gun is expensive, $300 or so, and you might have to pre-drill holes on Melamine and any hardwoods.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 24, 2021, at 3:40 PM, Alex Bowlds < aabj@...> wrote:
Talking about hold downs for CNC work... ?This company makes plastic staples and nails, and the guns to drive them. ?I saw them ?marketed specifically for CNC hold down applications. ?Until I researched them, I didn’t know they were available for other applications as well. ?You still get the nail hole, but you don’t have to be concerned with tooling hitting the plastic nail.
If the nail hole is not a deal breaker, these plastic nails will make holding down sheet goods pretty easy, and a lot cheaper than the vacuum system and associated electrical load issues.
Good luck,
Alex On May 24, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...> wrote:
?
I don't have the neighbor problem (other than my lovely wife and
the mountain fauna) but being off-grid, power draw is a constant
concern.? I tap out at about 12kw total simultaneous consumption
which has to cover the CNC, the spindle, and the dust collection,
so I've basically stuck with mechanical holddowns, but if I could
get away with 2500 watts for doing sheet goods, I might actually
have enough power to do it.
On 5/24/2021 2:43 PM, Brian Lamb wrote:
I just got it hooked up the other day, and my son stole my clamp
on amp meter yesterday… so I’ll have to wit until I get it back
from him. The paperwork I have from Black Box says the motors are
7.5amps, and there are four inside the Hurricane, so it’s supposed
to draw 30amps. That would be all pipes wide open, which you won’t
run that way, you’ll zone down and probably be sucking thru the
spoil board and have parts stuck on top, so you will most likely
be drawing 20-25 amps most of the time in use, that’s with 4
motors running and from what I hear, if I’m cutting full 4x8
sheets, I can run two motors and get enough hold down. Then you’d
be drawing 10-12 amps type of thing.
One bad thing… it’s noisy… I won’t be running it
without the shop doors all shut or the neighbors will get real
tired of it, real fast. The vane style pumps are quite a bit
less noise… but again, this is what I found (used) and could
afford, both monetarily and electrical draw.
On May 24, 2021, at 2:00 PM, Michael Garrison
Stuber < mtgstuber@...>
wrote:
Brian, ??? I really appreciate the tip to the
Hurricane unit.? I didn't know it existed.? Have you
ever measured how many amps the system draws in
practice?
On 5/24/2021 9:29 AM, Brian
Lamb wrote:
1. CNC is indeed repeatable, results vary somewhat
with size of end mills, depth of cut and feed rates.
Good methods and practices are still required though.
2. Software is ?great, just depends upon
what you want to pay. Mozaik is probably the best
out there, but it will cost you $125-$150 a month
subscription fee to do what you want. I found
another option as I don’t need the fancy
visualization/rendering software for customer
presentations. Cabinet Parts Pro, I think it’s
called, free to try (will do up to so many sheets of
material at once) or $250 for the full version. As
for how long it takes, not very much… I did a two
drawer box, blind dado construction and even made
the drawer boxes as a first test and had it done in
an hour on the computer, then took way less than 30
minutes to cut it out…. and that was the very first
time using the software.
3. You don’t need 50hp vacuum pumps. I
went with a Black Box Hurricane, runs on 220V single
phase less than 30 amps. It pulls 11” of vacuum and
is more than adequate for a 4x8 machine cutting
sheet goods. If you want to cut solid wood, buy pods
and get a decent sized vacuum pump like a Welch, or
even an air powered vacuum generator, although those
suck a lot of CFM of air.
I’ve lusted after a CNC for 20
years for my hobby shop. I am an
engineer who has worked in high tech for
36 years so the CNC stuff is definitely
of interest.? As I’ve dug in a few
things I’ve concluded;
- CNC ideal for precision
- CNC of sheet goods is awesome
with the right software
- Holding down material is
critical.? Big sheet good CNCs use
huge vacuum pumps, like 50HP.?
Hardwood, I expect would be fiddly. If
you got a high end CNC with movable
vacuum pods maybe.
- With CNC you go from human
dexterity skills to CAD skills
?
In the end I keep thinking for
the kind of things I build, furniture
and cabinets, it would take a lot longer
to do with a CNC with a high percentage
of that time spent on the computer.?
That said, unless I am building a
cabinet to fit in specific place I don’t
really do plans or cut lists.
?
?
Hi,
I am trying to find a replacement for my
sliding table saw that takes less space
but still allows to build hardwood
furnitures, builtins, closet systems,
kitchen cabinets.. I am not interested in
a standard table saw and I plan to keep my
jointer/planer, miter saw for some of the
hardwood task. I know that CNC routers
with flat bed are really good for cabinet
box/sheet good, but it seems that the new
machines with some pod tables are able to
manage hardwood too. I am not a production
shop, just looking to see if I can reduce
the footprint (2 times the sliding table
length, the rip capacity and the
outrigger).
If anyone has insight on using a CNC for
sheet good and hardwood and would like to
share, I will appreciate. In term of
machines, I am looking at middle to high
end version from Shopsabre, CAmaster,
Freedom Patriot as they all offer compact
design for a 4x8 table.
I know that there is a learning curve from
software and cutting technics (flow,
order, tooling, holding parts), but as
hobbyist I do not see any issue with that.
Thanks for all feedback,
Bill?
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router
Talking about hold downs for CNC work... ?This company makes plastic staples and nails, and the guns to drive them. ?I saw them ?marketed specifically for CNC hold down applications. ?Until I researched them, I didn’t know they were available for other applications as well. ?You still get the nail hole, but you don’t have to be concerned with tooling hitting the plastic nail.
If the nail hole is not a deal breaker, these plastic nails will make holding down sheet goods pretty easy, and a lot cheaper than the vacuum system and associated electrical load issues.
Good luck,
Alex
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On May 24, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...> wrote:
?
I don't have the neighbor problem (other than my lovely wife and
the mountain fauna) but being off-grid, power draw is a constant
concern.? I tap out at about 12kw total simultaneous consumption
which has to cover the CNC, the spindle, and the dust collection,
so I've basically stuck with mechanical holddowns, but if I could
get away with 2500 watts for doing sheet goods, I might actually
have enough power to do it.
On 5/24/2021 2:43 PM, Brian Lamb wrote:
I just got it hooked up the other day, and my son stole my clamp
on amp meter yesterday… so I’ll have to wit until I get it back
from him. The paperwork I have from Black Box says the motors are
7.5amps, and there are four inside the Hurricane, so it’s supposed
to draw 30amps. That would be all pipes wide open, which you won’t
run that way, you’ll zone down and probably be sucking thru the
spoil board and have parts stuck on top, so you will most likely
be drawing 20-25 amps most of the time in use, that’s with 4
motors running and from what I hear, if I’m cutting full 4x8
sheets, I can run two motors and get enough hold down. Then you’d
be drawing 10-12 amps type of thing.
One bad thing… it’s noisy… I won’t be running it
without the shop doors all shut or the neighbors will get real
tired of it, real fast. The vane style pumps are quite a bit
less noise… but again, this is what I found (used) and could
afford, both monetarily and electrical draw.
On May 24, 2021, at 2:00 PM, Michael Garrison
Stuber < mtgstuber@...>
wrote:
Brian,
??? I really appreciate the tip to the
Hurricane unit.? I didn't know it existed.? Have you
ever measured how many amps the system draws in
practice?
On 5/24/2021 9:29 AM, Brian
Lamb wrote:
1. CNC is indeed repeatable, results vary somewhat
with size of end mills, depth of cut and feed rates.
Good methods and practices are still required though.
2. Software is ?great, just depends upon
what you want to pay. Mozaik is probably the best
out there, but it will cost you $125-$150 a month
subscription fee to do what you want. I found
another option as I don’t need the fancy
visualization/rendering software for customer
presentations. Cabinet Parts Pro, I think it’s
called, free to try (will do up to so many sheets of
material at once) or $250 for the full version. As
for how long it takes, not very much… I did a two
drawer box, blind dado construction and even made
the drawer boxes as a first test and had it done in
an hour on the computer, then took way less than 30
minutes to cut it out…. and that was the very first
time using the software.
3. You don’t need 50hp vacuum pumps. I
went with a Black Box Hurricane, runs on 220V single
phase less than 30 amps. It pulls 11” of vacuum and
is more than adequate for a 4x8 machine cutting
sheet goods. If you want to cut solid wood, buy pods
and get a decent sized vacuum pump like a Welch, or
even an air powered vacuum generator, although those
suck a lot of CFM of air.
I’ve lusted after a CNC for 20
years for my hobby shop. I am an
engineer who has worked in high tech for
36 years so the CNC stuff is definitely
of interest.? As I’ve dug in a few
things I’ve concluded;
- CNC ideal for precision
- CNC of sheet goods is awesome
with the right software
- Holding down material is
critical.? Big sheet good CNCs use
huge vacuum pumps, like 50HP.?
Hardwood, I expect would be fiddly. If
you got a high end CNC with movable
vacuum pods maybe.
- With CNC you go from human
dexterity skills to CAD skills
?
In the end I keep thinking for
the kind of things I build, furniture
and cabinets, it would take a lot longer
to do with a CNC with a high percentage
of that time spent on the computer.?
That said, unless I am building a
cabinet to fit in specific place I don’t
really do plans or cut lists.
?
?
Hi,
I am trying to find a replacement for my
sliding table saw that takes less space
but still allows to build hardwood
furnitures, builtins, closet systems,
kitchen cabinets.. I am not interested in
a standard table saw and I plan to keep my
jointer/planer, miter saw for some of the
hardwood task. I know that CNC routers
with flat bed are really good for cabinet
box/sheet good, but it seems that the new
machines with some pod tables are able to
manage hardwood too. I am not a production
shop, just looking to see if I can reduce
the footprint (2 times the sliding table
length, the rip capacity and the
outrigger).
If anyone has insight on using a CNC for
sheet good and hardwood and would like to
share, I will appreciate. In term of
machines, I am looking at middle to high
end version from Shopsabre, CAmaster,
Freedom Patriot as they all offer compact
design for a 4x8 table.
I know that there is a learning curve from
software and cutting technics (flow,
order, tooling, holding parts), but as
hobbyist I do not see any issue with that.
Thanks for all feedback,
Bill?
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router
No plenum yet… the Stepcraft came with the basic table option, strips of melamine with aluminum t-slots about every 100mm across the length of the table. I did a 3/4” MDF spoil board and have been leaving enough space around parts to screw them down… but that’s kind of slow and awkward.
I have to order a 5x10 sheet of melamine as my table area is like 50 3/8” x 106 1/4”. I’ll cut it down on the felder, mount it and then machine the grid pattern. Then I’ll attach another MDF spoil board to “suck thru”. As for plans, just looked at a bunch on the net and picked what was simplest and looked like it would work for me. This is why I’m using a piece of melamine first… if I like all the aspects and don't have any “I wish I had…” moments after a few months of using it, I might remake the plenum out of phenolic if necessary.
The Black Box was originally designed and home built by Gary Campbell, he’s on the Shopbot forum. I thought about making the home brewed version, but didn’t really need yet another project just to get running, so found a guy selling a used one and bought that. Pretty sure Gary sold the rights to produce them to the folks at Black Box… they are internally pretty simple, probably why there isn’t a lot of information on the net, otherwise everybody would whittle one out.
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On May 24, 2021, at 3:13 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber < mtgstuber@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian.? The Black Box page is pretty thin.? Did you
already have a plenum in your machine, or did you do everything
from scratch?? Was there any particular plan you followed?? I'd be
curious what that aspect of implementing things looked like.
On 5/24/2021 3:02 PM, Brian Lamb wrote:
Well, off grid presents it’s own set of challenges. Once I get my
meter back… who knows how long that will take…. I’ll see if I can
get a reading for you. By then I should have some cutting under my
belt and have a better idea of how it holds with two vs. four
motors. I know that with my manifold valves all closed, I’m
getting as much vacuum, 11” or so, with two vs. four, so that
number is my max vacuum I’ll ever see with these motors. It just
remains to be seen how much leakage you get with how big of an
area covered on the table. I did four 2’x4’ zones ?and plumbed it
such that I can concentrate all the CFM on any combination of
zones from 1 to all four.
On May 24, 2021, at 2:52 PM, Michael Garrison
Stuber < mtgstuber@...> wrote:
I don't have the neighbor problem (other than
my lovely wife and the mountain fauna) but being
off-grid, power draw is a constant concern.? I tap out
at about 12kw total simultaneous consumption which has
to cover the CNC, the spindle, and the dust collection,
so I've basically stuck with mechanical holddowns, but
if I could get away with 2500 watts for doing sheet
goods, I might actually have enough power to do it.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router
Thanks Brian.? The Black Box page is pretty thin.? Did you
already have a plenum in your machine, or did you do everything
from scratch?? Was there any particular plan you followed?? I'd be
curious what that aspect of implementing things looked like.
On 5/24/2021 3:02 PM, Brian Lamb wrote:
Well, off grid presents it’s own set of challenges. Once I get my
meter back… who knows how long that will take…. I’ll see if I can
get a reading for you. By then I should have some cutting under my
belt and have a better idea of how it holds with two vs. four
motors. I know that with my manifold valves all closed, I’m
getting as much vacuum, 11” or so, with two vs. four, so that
number is my max vacuum I’ll ever see with these motors. It just
remains to be seen how much leakage you get with how big of an
area covered on the table. I did four 2’x4’ zones ?and plumbed it
such that I can concentrate all the CFM on any combination of
zones from 1 to all four.
On May 24, 2021, at 2:52 PM, Michael Garrison
Stuber < mtgstuber@...> wrote:
I don't have the neighbor problem (other than
my lovely wife and the mountain fauna) but being
off-grid, power draw is a constant concern.? I tap out
at about 12kw total simultaneous consumption which has
to cover the CNC, the spindle, and the dust collection,
so I've basically stuck with mechanical holddowns, but
if I could get away with 2500 watts for doing sheet
goods, I might actually have enough power to do it.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: replacing a sliding table saw with a CNC router
Well, off grid presents it’s own set of challenges. Once I get my meter back… who knows how long that will take…. I’ll see if I can get a reading for you. By then I should have some cutting under my belt and have a better idea of how it holds with two vs. four motors. I know that with my manifold valves all closed, I’m getting as much vacuum, 11” or so, with two vs. four, so that number is my max vacuum I’ll ever see with these motors. It just remains to be seen how much leakage you get with how big of an area covered on the table. I did four 2’x4’ zones ?and plumbed it such that I can concentrate all the CFM on any combination of zones from 1 to all four.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 24, 2021, at 2:52 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber < mtgstuber@...> wrote:
I don't have the neighbor problem (other than my lovely wife and
the mountain fauna) but being off-grid, power draw is a constant
concern.? I tap out at about 12kw total simultaneous consumption
which has to cover the CNC, the spindle, and the dust collection,
so I've basically stuck with mechanical holddowns, but if I could
get away with 2500 watts for doing sheet goods, I might actually
have enough power to do it.
|
imran
Jim Fleming
David Luckensmeyer