Thanks, Joe and Imran

I bought the new switch from Felder. It was specified after their technician did his on-site troubleshooting to determine that it was, in fact, the switch causing the original problem with my machine.? ?So, I can only assume they knew what old switch it was replacing.? At the time, I had asked for a wiring schematic, but they didn’t send anything.

?

As mentioned, the new switch came with jumpers installed between terminals, but I removed all of these and replaced them with jumpers to match the connections on the old switch.? I suspect, as Joe mentioned, that some of the jumpers that came with the new switch were there to replicate the switching function of the old switch.? I wish I had taken a photo of the jumper configuration on the new switch before taking them all off.?

I also saw reference to the A11 switch in the Kraus & Naimer catalog that Imran found, but couldn’t find the specific model matching the new switch, nor could I find any reference to the old A14 switch.?

I hope to talk with Felder on Monday and get a wiring schematic for the new switch (and old switch, if different).? I will also reach out to Kraus & Naimer to see if they can help me with the switching configuration of the two switches.?

Of course, it’s possible that I somehow didn’t wire the new switch up exactly the same as the old one, but I was pretty careful – doing one terminal at a time.?

Thanks again for your help and suggestions.? Will keep you posted.?

Todd

Hi All and Happy New Year!

First time poster and owner of a 2010 CF-531 here.? ?I have been very happy with this machine since I bought it used about a year ago.? I replaced the capacitors in March of last year.

?

I bought a new selector switch in June because I had trouble starting up my jointer / planer motor and the Felder technician had diagnosed the problem as a bad selector switch.? I was able to tap the old switch to get the jointer / planer started, but it finally didn’t start at all so I replaced the old switch with the new switch yesterday.

?

?

The new switch is Kraus & Naimer model A11 (A11.A-C555*FE.E) whereas the old switch was model Kraus & Naimer A14 (A14.A-C592*FE).? Plus, the new switch came with jumpers installed across various terminals.?

?

On installing the new switch, I installed all the wires to the new switch exactly like-for-like as the old switch including jumpers between terminals, so ended up not using any of the wire jumpers that came with the new switch (the old one had one wire jumper that I did install on the new switch).

?

When I press the start button for any of the three motor
s (saw, shaper, jointer/planer), I get a loud click (sounds like a relay), but none of the motors start up.? Even the jointer/planer clicks (it wouldn’t even click before), so perhaps that is progress, but I’m not happy that nothing is starting up. ?The reverse shaper yellow light turns on if the selector switch is set to that function.

?
I have checked the archives under "won't start", but didn't see anything that seemed applicable to my situation.

I wonder if the new switch has a slightly different internal configuration and switching pattern than the old one, and that me discarding the wire jumpers on the new switch could be causing the problem.? Has anyone experienced anything similar on replacing a selector switch??? Is there a wiring diagram / schematic for the machine with a new switch as compared to one for the old switch.

?

Any suggestions, ideas or directions you can provide would be greatly appreciated.? I have also asked Felder for their ideas.?

?

Thanks and Happy New Year,

?

Todd

Mac,,,

?

I guess Felder manual was written for a 3 phase machine in Europe.

?

The max current draw is different between a single phase and 3 phase motor. For example, 28 amp for 5hp (230v) single motor, 15.2 amp for 5hp (230v) three phase motor.? ?

?

?

James

?

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 6:55 PM TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:

I don’t understand some products’ strange electrical factors. Prior to my Felder, I had a 5HP SawStop which ran at about 19 amps, which clearly requires #10 wire and a 30A breaker, however the cord inlet was not large enough to accept 10-3 SOOW cord. Another example - I just bought a plug-in hybrid vehicle. The most popular level 2 charger on the market is rated for 50 amps of charging current, but the lugs can only accept up to #6 wire.

?

What’s doubly amazing is how these products somehow get UL listed when they don’t meet NEC code.

?

I think the CF531 I just received had the same “maximum 20A OCPD” note in the install documentation, so your little war didn’t hurt enough to fix their stupid documentation.

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> on behalf of "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." <rohrabacher@...>
Reply-To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 5:17 PM
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [FOG] Dealing with woodworking machine companies - Harvey

?

I had a little war with Felder.? The documentation? for my RL160 said maximum 20 amps.? so that's what my guy installed (scratching his head).

Then the thing did nothing but blow the circuit

I must have spent? ten hours on the phone with their pro league Ex used car salesman? Gaslighhter? telling me how it is all my fault.

So I told them they were coming to NJ? to defend? a suit that I would file in NJ and not in Delaware deliberately,? so as to provide me the opportunity to ask the court to reform their contract and strike their venue selection clause along with my demand for m payment of the electricians bill for the rewiring job.? If I got one state to strike that clause that'd open them to suite in all states.

A couple weeks later I got a check. .

?

On 12/30/20 4:53 PM, Robert Johnson wrote:

With all the recent angst with Felder customer support, I wanted to report on my initial experience with Harvey.
As many of you know Jack Xo makes the Gyro dust collector and basic woodworking machines and bought out Bridge City Tools.
I suggested to my wife that a Shark S-12s Universal Overhead Guard would be great for Christmas.? This was back around Thanksgiving.? It arrive quickly by UPS, however its double wall hex-cell cored cardboard box had been totally shredded and basically held together just with miles of packaging tape.? I never saw a UPS driver take off so fast after he dropped the 100# load at my front door.

I tell you all this to report their customer support has been very good.? After requesting photos of the packaging, they asked if I needed a replacement of any or all components.? All the parts look very rugged and apparently survived. Nothing was broken, scratched or dented.? I have yet to assemble it on my Felder year 2004 K700S, as I was asked by Nancy to wait for Christmas.? I've received several follow up messages since from Nathan Anderson, asking if I am making progress on the installation and giving me assurance they were there to help.? Currently the price is $850 and I think is a good price.? I'll let you all know after I get it installed and the saw running.

It does help Lucky. I bought the router table for my new shop because?I always had one. I bought the shaper on recommendation from my salesman?but he told me NOT to bother buying the router spindle, that it was quicker and easier to use a router table, but I got the spindle anyway. I'm just setting up and my?first opotunity?was to use the shaper for something too big for the router table, and watching this?thread (which it looks like I hijacked, oops, just realized and I apologize) looks like I might be able to use the F700Z all the time. I'd much rather do that, since I've always had issues with the router table with chatter etc. So I think my best bet is to force myself to use the shaper exclusively for 6 months?or so and see how it goes. Thanks again for your response.

Bill,?

I’ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?

?

I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?

?

Of course, what you’re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I’d disregard my comments above.?

?

You’ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.?

?

Warm regards,

Lucky

On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:

?

Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table?

I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room?

I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.

?

Thanks in advance

Bill Bélanger

?

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 2:20 PM Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:

My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.? Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?

?

If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of David Kumm
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 10:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work at the 15K range.? Dave

?

---

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of imranindiana via <imranindiana@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 12:21 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

Hi Joe,

?

I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.

?

I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:

?

<image001.png>

?

However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia) for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.

?

Here is the data for above graph

<image002.jpg>

?

Imran

?

From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

Number of flutes is important too.

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of imranindiana via
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 10:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.

?

Imran

On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:35 PM, imranindiana via <imranindiana@...> wrote:

?

My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s

<image0.jpeg>

?

?

lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.

?

There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b

<image1.jpeg>

?

?

I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?

?

Imran

On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:02 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:

?

Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?

?

I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.

?

Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?

?

Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.

?

So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?

?

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.

Cheers

Eric

?

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:

Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.

Look at this on eBay

Imran

?

Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table?

My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.? Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?

?

If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of David Kumm
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 10:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work at the 15K range.? Dave

?

---

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of imranindiana via <imranindiana@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 12:21 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

Hi Joe,

?

I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.

?

I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:

?

?

However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia) for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.

?

Here is the data for above graph

?

Imran

?

From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

Number of flutes is important too.

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of imranindiana via
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 10:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.

?

Imran

On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:35 PM, imranindiana via <imranindiana@...> wrote:

?

My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s

<image0.jpeg>

?

?

lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.

?

There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b

<image1.jpeg>

?

?

I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?

?

Imran

On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:02 PM, Joe Jensen <joe.jensen@...> wrote:

?

Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?

?

I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.

?

Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?

?

Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.

?

So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?

?

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111

?

This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.

Cheers

Eric

?

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:

Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.

Look at this on eBay

Imran

?