Re: Machinery Max: GRIGGIO 3200E 10' SLIDING TABLE SAW yr 2005 * 9HP - MISSISSAUGA, CANADA
There is a very nice looking Casadei non electronic saw on Woodweb at 9500.? Build will be a little heavier than the 900 series although fewer accessories.? Felder excells in add ons but Casadei machines are basically similar to SCMI Nova or better.? Dave
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Here is another with DRO in xcut fence:
?
?
Imran
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Re: CF-531 won¡¯t start after replacing selector switch
This is the link for their catalog collection. You may need to contact them for A14 details.
How did you find out that A11 can be used to replace A14?
Either way, i would suggest contacting Felder to get the A14 wiring diagram unless you made notes of the original switch wiring.
You may be able to wire A11, assuming it is compatible, from the catalog i shared in the earlier msg.
Imran
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On Jan 1, 2021, at 2:12 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote: ? Todd,
I found this catalog with A11 but no A14
Imran?
On Dec 31, 2020, at 7:42 PM, Justa318@... wrote:
? Hi All and Happy New Year!
First time poster and owner of a 2010 CF-531 here.? ?I have been very happy with this machine since I bought it used about a year ago.? I replaced the capacitors in March of last year.
?
I bought a new selector switch in June because I had trouble starting up my jointer / planer motor and the Felder technician had diagnosed the problem as a bad selector switch.? I was able to tap the old switch to get the jointer / planer started, but it finally didn¡¯t start at all so I replaced the old switch with the new switch yesterday.
?
?
The new switch is Kraus & Naimer model A11 (A11.A-C555*FE.E) whereas the old switch was model Kraus & Naimer A14 (A14.A-C592*FE).? Plus, the new switch came with jumpers installed across various terminals.?
?
On installing the new switch, I installed all the wires to the new switch exactly like-for-like as the old switch including jumpers between terminals, so ended up not using any of the wire jumpers that came with the new switch (the old one had one wire jumper that I did install on the new switch).
?
When I press the start button for any of the three motor
s (saw, shaper, jointer/planer), I get a loud click (sounds like a relay), but none of the motors start up.? Even the jointer/planer clicks (it wouldn¡¯t even click before), so perhaps that is progress, but I¡¯m not happy that nothing is starting up. ?The reverse shaper yellow light turns on if the selector switch is set to that function.
?
I have checked the archives under "won't start", but didn't see anything that seemed applicable to my situation.
I wonder if the new switch has a slightly different internal configuration and switching pattern than the old one, and that me discarding the wire jumpers on the new switch could be causing the problem.? Has anyone experienced anything similar on replacing a selector switch??? Is there a wiring diagram / schematic for the machine with a new switch as compared to one for the old switch.
?
Any suggestions, ideas or directions you can provide would be greatly appreciated.? I have also asked Felder for their ideas.?
?
Thanks and Happy New Year,
?
Todd
|
Re: CF-531 won¡¯t start after replacing selector switch
Todd,
I found this catalog with A11 but no A14
Imran?
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On Dec 31, 2020, at 7:42 PM, Justa318@... wrote: ? Hi All and Happy New Year!
First time poster and owner of a 2010 CF-531 here.? ?I have been very happy with this machine since I bought it used about a year ago.? I replaced the capacitors in March of last year.
?
I bought a new selector switch in June because I had trouble starting up my jointer / planer motor and the Felder technician had diagnosed the problem as a bad selector switch.? I was able to tap the old switch to get the jointer / planer started, but it finally didn¡¯t start at all so I replaced the old switch with the new switch yesterday.
?
?
The new switch is Kraus & Naimer model A11 (A11.A-C555*FE.E) whereas the old switch was model Kraus & Naimer A14 (A14.A-C592*FE).? Plus, the new switch came with jumpers installed across various terminals.?
?
On installing the new switch, I installed all the wires to the new switch exactly like-for-like as the old switch including jumpers between terminals, so ended up not using any of the wire jumpers that came with the new switch (the old one had one wire jumper that I did install on the new switch).
?
When I press the start button for any of the three motor
s (saw, shaper, jointer/planer), I get a loud click (sounds like a relay), but none of the motors start up.? Even the jointer/planer clicks (it wouldn¡¯t even click before), so perhaps that is progress, but I¡¯m not happy that nothing is starting up. ?The reverse shaper yellow light turns on if the selector switch is set to that function.
?
I have checked the archives under "won't start", but didn't see anything that seemed applicable to my situation.
I wonder if the new switch has a slightly different internal configuration and switching pattern than the old one, and that me discarding the wire jumpers on the new switch could be causing the problem.? Has anyone experienced anything similar on replacing a selector switch??? Is there a wiring diagram / schematic for the machine with a new switch as compared to one for the old switch.
?
Any suggestions, ideas or directions you can provide would be greatly appreciated.? I have also asked Felder for their ideas.?
?
Thanks and Happy New Year,
?
Todd
|
Re: Dealing with woodworking machine companies - Harvey
Like 20 years ago UPS delivered a pair of very expensive audio speakers.? When delivered it was clear that someone drove a forklift all the way through
one speaker, in one side of the box and out the other.? The speakers we built with 25mm high density particle board and it went through two layers.? The delivery driver shrugged his shoulders and gave me the phone number for claims. ?They weighted under the
limit for individual packaging.? At the time I was told that if on a pallet items are not tossed around.
?
Around the same time frame I had a heavy audio amplifier delivered.? Again an expensive piece.? The driver just rolled it out the back of the truck
and let it fall the 2 ft to the ground.? I was not surprised when it did not work.
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Airtight: Clamps by Air Compression
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 4:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Dealing with woodworking machine companies - Harvey
?
Just a thought with UPS ?any package that has an insured value of $1000.00 is not put on conveyors and is treated special and ups people Carry ?it on to the trucks. So I pay the extra for say a package that¡¯s 900.00 I insure for 1000.0
to get the extra protection well worth it . I hand deliver all my packages to the terminal and ups signs for them high value. They are not going to risk damaging the package. It might be all bull but it defiantly works for me , I also am serious about my packages
I design them good and it pays off.
Mac,,,
Designing and building for 50 years
?
I guess Felder manual was written for a 3 phase machine in Europe.
The max current draw is different between a single phase and 3 phase motor. For example, 28 amp for 5hp (230v) single motor, 15.2 amp for 5hp (230v) three phase motor.? ?
?
On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 6:55 PM TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
I don¡¯t understand some products¡¯ strange electrical factors. Prior to my Felder, I had a 5HP SawStop which ran at about 19 amps, which clearly requires #10 wire and a 30A breaker,
however the cord inlet was not large enough to accept 10-3 SOOW cord. Another example - I just bought a plug-in hybrid vehicle. The most popular level 2 charger on the market is rated for 50 amps of charging current, but the lugs can only accept up to #6 wire.
?
What¡¯s doubly amazing is how these products somehow get UL listed when they don¡¯t meet NEC code.
?
I think the CF531 I just received had the same ¡°maximum 20A OCPD¡± note in the install documentation, so your little war didn¡¯t hurt enough to fix their stupid documentation.
I had a little war with Felder.? The documentation? for my RL160 said maximum 20 amps.? so that's what my guy installed (scratching his head).
Then the thing did nothing but blow the circuit
I must have spent? ten hours on the phone with their pro league Ex used car salesman? Gaslighhter? telling me how it is all my fault.
So I told them they were coming to NJ? to defend? a suit that I would file in NJ and not in Delaware deliberately,? so as to provide me the opportunity to ask the court to reform their contract and strike their venue selection clause along with my demand
for m payment of the electricians bill for the rewiring job.? If I got one state to strike that clause that'd open them to suite in all states.
A couple weeks later I got a check. .
?
On 12/30/20 4:53 PM, Robert Johnson wrote:
With all the recent angst with Felder customer support, I wanted to report on my initial experience with Harvey.
As many of you know Jack Xo makes the Gyro dust collector and basic woodworking machines and bought out Bridge City Tools.
I suggested to my wife that a Shark S-12s Universal Overhead Guard would be great for Christmas.? This was back around Thanksgiving.? It arrive quickly by UPS, however its double wall hex-cell cored cardboard box had been totally shredded and basically held
together just with miles of packaging tape.? I never saw a UPS driver take off so fast after he dropped the 100# load at my front door.
I tell you all this to report their customer support has been very good.? After requesting photos of the packaging, they asked if I needed a replacement of any or all components.? All the parts look very rugged and apparently survived. Nothing was broken, scratched
or dented.? I have yet to assemble it on my Felder year 2004 K700S, as I was asked by Nancy to wait for Christmas.? I've received several follow up messages since from Nathan Anderson, asking if I am making progress on the installation and giving me assurance
they were there to help.? Currently the price is $850 and I think is a good price.? I'll let you all know after I get it installed and the saw running.
|
Re: CF-531 won¡¯t start after replacing selector switch
It may be that the jumpers are needed to match the switching of the old switch? ?Can you find electrical diagrams for both switches?
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Justa318@...
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 2:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [FOG] CF-531 won¡¯t start after replacing selector switch
?
Hi All and Happy New Year!
First time poster and owner of a 2010 CF-531 here.? ?I have been very happy with this machine since I bought it used about a year ago.? I replaced the capacitors in March of last year.
?
I bought a new selector switch in June because I had trouble starting up my jointer / planer motor and the Felder technician had diagnosed the problem as a bad selector switch.? I was able to tap the old switch to get the jointer / planer started, but it finally
didn¡¯t start at all so I replaced the old switch with the new switch yesterday.
?
?
The new switch is Kraus & Naimer model A11 (A11.A-C555*FE.E) whereas the old switch was model Kraus & Naimer A14 (A14.A-C592*FE).? Plus, the new switch came with jumpers installed across various terminals.?
?
On installing the new switch, I installed all the wires to the new switch exactly like-for-like as the old switch including jumpers between terminals, so ended up not using any of the wire jumpers that came with the new switch (the old
one had one wire jumper that I did install on the new switch).
?
When I press the start button for any of the three motor
s (saw, shaper, jointer/planer), I get a loud click (sounds like a relay), but none of the motors start up.? Even the jointer/planer clicks (it wouldn¡¯t even click before), so perhaps that is progress, but I¡¯m not happy that nothing is starting up.? The reverse
shaper yellow light turns on if the selector switch is set to that function.
?
I have checked the archives under "won't start", but didn't see anything that seemed applicable to my situation.
I wonder if the new switch has a slightly different internal configuration and switching pattern than the old one, and that me discarding the wire jumpers on the new switch could be causing the problem.? Has anyone experienced anything similar on replacing
a selector switch??? Is there a wiring diagram / schematic for the machine with a new switch as compared to one for the old switch.
?
Any suggestions, ideas or directions you can provide would be greatly appreciated.? I have also asked Felder for their ideas.?
?
Thanks and Happy New Year,
?
Todd
|
Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
Bill, maybe you can do a test with a ? bit in the KF700 and the router table to see what difference it makes.
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Bill Belanger
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 4:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
It does help Lucky. I bought the router table for my new shop because?I always had one. I bought the shaper on recommendation from my salesman?but he told me NOT to bother buying the router spindle, that it was quicker and easier to use
a router table, but I got the spindle anyway. I'm just setting up and my?first opotunity?was to use the shaper for something too big for the router table, and watching this?thread (which it looks like I hijacked, oops, just realized and I apologize) looks
like I might be able to use the F700Z all the time. I'd much rather do that, since I've always had issues with the router table with chatter etc. So I think my best bet is to force myself to use the shaper exclusively for 6 months?or so and see how it goes.
Thanks again for your response.
?
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:24 PM David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
Bill,?
I¡¯ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?
I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?
Of course, what you¡¯re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I¡¯d disregard my comments above.?
You¡¯ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.?
On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
?
Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table?
I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room?
I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
?
My most used router bit is a 1/8¡± round over. Most of the time it¡¯s in the router spindle
already.? It¡¯s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.? Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it¡¯s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8¡±.? Just removing a small amount
of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000
to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but
doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.?
I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter dia less than 100mm.
So now we have this:
?
?
However, 4¡± (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia) for b=10 in their
plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic¡I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal
are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up
to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I¡¯ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router bits west big they
made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that¡¯s where ¡°you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits¡± wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually
running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn¡¯t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you are going to get. Changing
spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
I never had a ¡°proper¡± router table and always had a shaper. ??My ¡°router table¡± was a router plate that dropped in a hole in a bench and the fence
was clamped in place and adjusted with light taps ?
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Bill Belanger
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 3:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table?
I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room?
I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
?
My most used router bit is a 1/8¡± round over. Most of the time it¡¯s in the router spindle
already.? It¡¯s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.? Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it¡¯s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8¡±.? Just removing a small amount
of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000
to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but
doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.?
I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then
extrapolated for cutter dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
?
However, 4¡± (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data
(for smaller cutter dia) for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
?
Imran
?
From:
[email protected] On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic¡I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this??
Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed
rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was
rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I¡¯ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.?
So then when router bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that¡¯s where ¡°you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits¡± wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch
lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn¡¯t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From:
[email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration-
free as you are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
Stan,
Do not worry, I think you can still get it at $124, probably?free shipping, LOL.
James
On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 10:15 AM Stan Blaszczyk < blaszcsj@...> wrote: I bid until $124 and gave up. It each time I bid it instantly when up. It would have been nice to have a hard copy or any copy of this book.?
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
I bid until $124 and gave up. It each time I bid it instantly when up. It would have been nice to have a hard copy or any copy of this book.?
|
Re: Last day to save 10% on Felder Accessories
I bought a 950 as well. I had the Grizzly version in Maine. The Grizzly came with a nice storage cabinet underneath for the same price. It¡¯s a shame to waste that space so I¡¯ll have to build a cabinet for it.
Bill B¨¦langer
Yeah,
I was a sucker for it too!? Bought a Hammer HS 950 edge sander yesterday.? The stacked discounts seemed pretty good.? Hoping to get it shipped with my KF700SP.
PK
|
Re: Last day to save 10% on Felder Accessories
Yeah,
I was a sucker for it too!? Bought a Hammer HS 950 edge sander yesterday.? The stacked discounts seemed pretty good.? Hoping to get it shipped with my KF700SP.
PK
|
Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
All:
When I bought my KF 700, I sold my Incra/Porter Cable router table to save space and also to force myself to use the shaper with the router spindle.
My experience verifies the Joe Jensen question, even with the slower speed --the solidity and power of the Felder has worked well every time I have used same. ?Having said that, I have often thought that a dedicated router table would be a useful re-addition. ?In the process of moving my shop, I am considering one¡ªthe cost is certainly higher than before, I think I costed out my product choices at almost $2K.
Happy New Year to all.
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On Dec 31, 2020, at 5:37 PM, robert andre < ehf222@...> wrote:
I cant measure the spindle speed, but I can verify that on my 700Z with vfd, all my router bits run great. Cutters from a 1/8" round over to 1 12" or more. This makes for a versatile machine when you consider a 1/8" round over to a pair of 220 mm rebate heads employed for tenoning.
|
Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
I cant measure the spindle speed, but I can verify that on my 700Z with vfd, all my router bits run great. Cutters from a 1/8" round over to 1 12" or more. This makes for a versatile machine when you consider a 1/8" round over to a pair of 220 mm rebate heads employed for tenoning.
|
Re: Kappa 400 Below Table Dust Extraction
It¡¯s 2021, five years since your post on Kappa 400 dust collection, did FELDER make any changes to the overhead and below dust collection on the Kappa 400? Did you ever come up with a better solution??
Pat Rice
|
I can sale mine for 15k and I¡¯ll update to 590? Elegance Custom Cabinetry? Minneapolis, Minnesota?
Regards?
Dmitry Ivanovs .
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On Dec 31, 2020, at 09:03, tomruth@... wrote:
?Yes very low miles. Curious to know what that costs new and what it will go for.
|
Re: formerly known as dealing with machine companies, now EV charging
TJ, I don't know what brand "the most popular level 2 charger" is, but I have a JuiceBox and I've had two other brands, and none of them have lugs.? The 50A Juicebox comes with a #6 pigtail (bare or with plug).? ??
The 80% rule applies to circuit breakers, not conductors.? ?A 60A breaker with #6 wire is kosher and 50A continuous load is kosher (and realistically, I seriously doubt any charger actually pulls the rated amount continuously)
Imran, fyi 60¡ã wire probably isn't even manufactured anymore.? ?I can't remember the last time I requested a type.? Just this morning I bought wire at my local electrical supply and I just said "three spools of wire..." and I get 90¡ã THWN-THHN-2 (90¡ã rated)? I'm sure it's all they stock.? I'm pretty sure wire at Home Depot etc. like is the same.
|
Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
For precise height adjustment of the router bit, a router lift is needed.?
I had used Bosch MRF23EVS in the router table, it is a pain to adjust the height,?it?failed eventually. I replaced it with Porter Cable 7518 plus Incra router lift, night and day difference.
If I had the separate shaper, I would probably buy the router spindle and get rid of the router table.
James
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 8:50 PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: I have the David Best kit for dropping a router into shaper opening like Jarret mentioned. It works exceptionally well with bits with bearings. I have however used a board for a fence as well, that was clamped to the table.
Imran On Dec 31, 2020, at 6:46 PM, Jarrett Maxwell < j.a.max7@...> wrote: ? I have a 2004 CF731 combination machine and have made a router insert that I can drop into the shaper table hole when I need an actual router. It works well and fits my Porter Cable 891 2.25HP router.?
Jarrett On Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 5:33 PM Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote: It does help Lucky. I bought the router table for my new shop because?I always had one. I bought the shaper on recommendation from my salesman?but he told me NOT to bother buying the router spindle, that it was quicker and easier to use a router table, but I got the spindle anyway. I'm just setting up and my?first opotunity?was to use the shaper for something too big for the router table, and watching this?thread (which it looks like I hijacked, oops, just realized and I apologize) looks like I might be able to use the F700Z all the time. I'd much rather do that, since I've always had issues with the router table with chatter etc. So I think my best bet is to force myself to use the shaper exclusively for 6 months?or so and see how it goes. Thanks again for your response.
Bill B¨¦langer
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:24 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Bill,? I¡¯ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?
I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?
Of course, what you¡¯re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I¡¯d disregard my comments above.?
You¡¯ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.? On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
? Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill B¨¦langer
My most used router bit is a 1/8¡± round over. Most of the time it¡¯s in the router spindle already.? It¡¯s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it¡¯s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8¡±.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
<image001.png>
?
However, 4¡± (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
<image002.jpg>
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic¡I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I¡¯ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that¡¯s where ¡°you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits¡± wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn¡¯t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
I have the David Best kit for dropping a router into shaper opening like Jarret mentioned. It works exceptionally well with bits with bearings. I have however used a board for a fence as well, that was clamped to the table.
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 6:46 PM, Jarrett Maxwell <j.a.max7@...> wrote: ? I have a 2004 CF731 combination machine and have made a router insert that I can drop into the shaper table hole when I need an actual router. It works well and fits my Porter Cable 891 2.25HP router.?
Jarrett On Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 5:33 PM Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote: It does help Lucky. I bought the router table for my new shop because?I always had one. I bought the shaper on recommendation from my salesman?but he told me NOT to bother buying the router spindle, that it was quicker and easier to use a router table, but I got the spindle anyway. I'm just setting up and my?first opotunity?was to use the shaper for something too big for the router table, and watching this?thread (which it looks like I hijacked, oops, just realized and I apologize) looks like I might be able to use the F700Z all the time. I'd much rather do that, since I've always had issues with the router table with chatter etc. So I think my best bet is to force myself to use the shaper exclusively for 6 months?or so and see how it goes. Thanks again for your response.
Bill B¨¦langer
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:24 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Bill,? I¡¯ve gone my entire professional career without a dedicated router table. When I really need one, I set up a piece of board on some Euro saw horses, and set up a temporary production run. Otherwise I use the shaper or a hand held router.?
I do plan on making a router table one day, but it will be a bench version that I can shove out of the way. I will never dedicate floor space to said table while I have a shaper ready to go.?
Of course, what you¡¯re making is also a consideration. I have a genuine need for a router table about once every two months. If I needed one every week I¡¯d disregard my comments above.?
You¡¯ve brought up a good point we all wrestle with. Hope this helps you.? On 1 Jan 2021, at 8:49 am, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
? Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill B¨¦langer
My most used router bit is a 1/8¡± round over. Most of the time it¡¯s in the router spindle already.? It¡¯s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it¡¯s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8¡±.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
<image001.png>
?
However, 4¡± (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
<image002.jpg>
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic¡I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I¡¯ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that¡¯s where ¡°you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits¡± wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn¡¯t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Re: Dealing with woodworking machine companies - Harvey
when I shipped packages insured for over $1000, UPS instructs that they be dropped at their terminal and not at any of their UPS stores.
They also instructed to print 2 copies of a 2 page receipt. One set is returned to me with UPS employee signature as a receipt of receiving the package, the other is kept by them.
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 6:35 PM, Airtight: Clamps by Air Compression <airtightclamps@...> wrote: ? Just a thought with UPS ?any package that has an insured value of $1000.00 is not put on conveyors and is treated special and ups people Carry ?it on to the trucks. So I pay the extra for say a package that¡¯s 900.00 I insure for 1000.0 to get the extra protection well worth it . I hand deliver all my packages to the terminal and ups signs for them high value. They are not going to risk damaging the package. It might be all bull but it defiantly works for me , I also am serious about my packages I design them good and it pays off. Mac,,, Designing and building for 50 years On Dec 30, 2020, at 6:20 PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote:
? I guess Felder manual was written for a 3 phase machine in Europe.
The max current draw is different between a single phase and 3 phase motor. For example, 28 amp for 5hp (230v) single motor, 15.2 amp for 5hp (230v) three phase motor.? ?
James On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 6:55 PM TJ Cornish < tj@...> wrote:
I don¡¯t understand some products¡¯ strange electrical factors. Prior to my Felder, I had a 5HP SawStop which ran at about 19 amps, which clearly requires #10 wire and a 30A breaker, however the cord inlet was not large enough to accept 10-3
SOOW cord. Another example - I just bought a plug-in hybrid vehicle. The most popular level 2 charger on the market is rated for 50 amps of charging current, but the lugs can only accept up to #6 wire.
?
What¡¯s doubly amazing is how these products somehow get UL listed when they don¡¯t meet NEC code.
?
I think the CF531 I just received had the same ¡°maximum 20A OCPD¡± note in the install documentation, so your little war didn¡¯t hurt enough to fix their stupid documentation.
I had a little war with Felder.? The documentation? for my RL160 said maximum 20 amps.? so that's what my guy installed (scratching his head).
Then the thing did nothing but blow the circuit
I must have spent? ten hours on the phone with their pro league Ex used car salesman? Gaslighhter? telling me how it is all my fault.
So I told them they were coming to NJ? to defend? a suit that I would file in NJ and not in Delaware deliberately,? so as to provide me the opportunity to ask the court to reform their contract and strike their venue selection clause along with my demand
for m payment of the electricians bill for the rewiring job.? If I got one state to strike that clause that'd open them to suite in all states.
A couple weeks later I got a check. .
?
On 12/30/20 4:53 PM, Robert Johnson wrote:
With all the recent angst with Felder customer support, I wanted to report on my initial experience with Harvey.
As many of you know Jack Xo makes the Gyro dust collector and basic woodworking machines and bought out Bridge City Tools.
I suggested to my wife that a Shark S-12s Universal Overhead Guard would be great for Christmas.? This was back around Thanksgiving.? It arrive quickly by UPS, however its double wall hex-cell cored cardboard box had been totally shredded and basically held
together just with miles of packaging tape.? I never saw a UPS driver take off so fast after he dropped the 100# load at my front door.
I tell you all this to report their customer support has been very good.? After requesting photos of the packaging, they asked if I needed a replacement of any or all components.? All the parts look very rugged and apparently survived. Nothing was broken, scratched
or dented.? I have yet to assemble it on my Felder year 2004 K700S, as I was asked by Nancy to wait for Christmas.? I've received several follow up messages since from Nathan Anderson, asking if I am making progress on the installation and giving me assurance
they were there to help.? Currently the price is $850 and I think is a good price.? I'll let you all know after I get it installed and the saw running.
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
Bill, If that ebay auction doesnt work out I'll give you $50 if you throw in the shipping to the EU....oh hang on...sorry ...I just checked...I'm not in the EU(anymore)....forget I mentioned it ...lol ?
Regards? Stephen?
If that were a corporate purchase as has been surmised, ?zero history wouldn¡¯t be unusual.?
Could also be a shill who got caught out too. ?
D Sent from my iEye ?The winning bidder has zero buy/sell history on eBay.? I¡¯ve got $20 that says payment won¡¯t settle on this.? Any takers? ? $1,925 is insane - I mean it¡¯s not even signed by the author. ? LOL
Begin forwarded message:
Subject: Re: [FOG] The Unofficial Survival Guide
Date: December 31, 2020 at 4:31:46 PM PST
The $100 listing has been removed.? Looking at the bidding history, You can see only two bidders left when the price went over $125. The bidding history looked weird to me.
Bill can tell us if the buyer pays in 4 days.
James Maybe it¡¯s time to have a Futures ETF that tracks the Survival Guide resale value. ?
Mark,
You can get the hard copy at just $100 now, a new listing, no bid yet.
<Capture.JPG>
James Do you think the high bidder would suddenly realize David would sell a digital copy for I think he mentioned at one point $50? (Now $500 ?)... ? The price jumped to $1,925 two minutes before the end. I seriously doubt that the buyer would pay unless he/she has a special purpose before the end of 2020.
<Capture.JPG>
James Non payment has repercussions, though only to established members.?
You could always 2nd chance offer it to the next highest bidder.?
D ? Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill B¨¦langer
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill B¨¦langer < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill B¨¦langer
|
imran
Joe Jensen
Bill Belanger
PK
JP Rice