Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?Just got a ebay msg telling me the 1.25” spindle is reduced to $333. Router spindle is apparently sold.
Imran?
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On Dec 31, 2020, at 5:49 PM, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote: ? Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill Bélanger
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
<image001.png>
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
<image002.jpg>
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Re: VIP Program from Felder
Either ship there (college station) or drop it off there. ?I’m going to call felder next week about shipping. ? Thanks,
Chris Perren 512-415-6951
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On Dec 31, 2020, at 3:36 PM, Larry <larry@...> wrote:
?Hey Chris,
Not a bad idea...have to think about it. Are you picking it up in College Station?
Larry
|
Re: VIP Program from Felder
Hi Larry,
I do not blame you. I was at UT austin ‘82-‘84 and drove a few times to houston. IIRC, similar distance and did not like it.
Imran
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On Dec 31, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Larry <larry@...> wrote: ?Hi Imran,
I did a road trip in January last year to pick up my FB 710, RL 160 and AD 941. I took my adult son up there and the intention was to stay at a friend's house that night and pick up the equipment the next day. We were sitting in a restaurant in the area for a late lunch and my son said, "Hey, why don't we pick the stuff up when we finish lunch and head back home." I wasn't crazy about the idea but that is what we ended up doing. I was going to have my son help me drive back (I drove all the way up there) but with everything on my 20' trailer and the RL 160 looking kind of top heavy (was more worried about the sail area) I decided to drive all the way back (~600 mi. r/t) so that if something happened it would be on me, not him.
This is the long way of saying that I could drive to Dallas but just not feeling it right now...still recovering from back surgery, hate the drive to Dallas, and a hundred other excuses...my loss I suppose.
|
Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
Wondering how many of you who have a shaper, also have a router table? I have one of both, but I'm thinking in my little shop I could use the room? I'm just getting setup, so haven't really had the full use of the shop enough to see how badly I need both.
Thanks in advance Bill Bélanger
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
Mark,
You can get the hard copy at just $100 now, a new listing, no bid yet.
James
Do you think the high bidder would suddenly realize David would sell a digital copy for I think he mentioned at one point $50? (Now $500 ?)... ? The price jumped to $1,925 two minutes before the end. I seriously doubt that the buyer would pay unless he/she has a special purpose before the end of 2020.
James Non payment has repercussions, though only to established members.?
You could always 2nd chance offer it to the next highest bidder.?
D ? Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: VIP Program from Felder
Hey Chris,
Not a bad idea...have to think about it. Are you picking it up in College Station?
Larry
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
Do you think the high bidder would suddenly realize David would sell a digital copy for I think he mentioned at one point $50? (Now $500 ?)...
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Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 5:31 PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote:
? The price jumped to $1,925 two minutes before the end. I seriously doubt that the buyer would pay unless he/she has a special purpose before the end of 2020.
James Non payment has repercussions, though only to established members.?
You could always 2nd chance offer it to the next highest bidder.?
D ? Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: VIP Program from Felder
Hi Imran,
I did a road trip in January last year to pick up my FB 710, RL 160 and AD 941. I took my adult son up there and the intention was to stay at a friend's house that night and pick up the equipment the next day. We were sitting in a restaurant in the area for a late lunch and my son said, "Hey, why don't we pick the stuff up when we finish lunch and head back home." I wasn't crazy about the idea but that is what we ended up doing. I was going to have my son help me drive back (I drove all the way up there) but with everything on my 20' trailer and the RL 160 looking kind of top heavy (was more worried about the sail area) I decided to drive all the way back (~600 mi. r/t) so that if something happened it would be on me, not him.
This is the long way of saying that I could drive to Dallas but just not feeling it right now...still recovering from back surgery, hate the drive to Dallas, and a hundred other excuses...my loss I suppose.
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
The price jumped to $1,925 two minutes before the end. I seriously doubt that the buyer would pay unless he/she has a special purpose before the end of 2020.
James
Non payment has repercussions, though only to established members.?
You could always 2nd chance offer it to the next highest bidder.?
D ? Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
It is at $1925 with 8 mins to go. I wonder if Felder is bidding for their engineering staff ?
Imran
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Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 4:25 PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote: ? One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: Self Retracting Air & electric Reels?
Prices on Amazon fluctuate?based on many factors especially over the last year. I use a browser plugin that shows the history so at least I have an idea of what is going on. The plugin is from this company -? See 3 months pricing history for reel with 3/8" hose and 12 months history for reel with 1/2" hose I hope this helps. Ariel
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
Non payment has repercussions, though only to established members.?
You could always 2nd chance offer it to the next highest bidder.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 4:56 PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote:
? Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
Well, it could happen that the buyer does not pay at the end.
James
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:48 PM Chris Perren < cperren@...> wrote: And it has FREE shipping. ? ? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
And it has FREE shipping. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 31, 2020, at 2:26 PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote:
? And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird.
James
One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
One hour left, the bid is $1,625!
James
Now there is an asset that is increasing in value with time !!!
Get
well it is not the million dollars I was predicting but looks like you are going to do well with this sale ?
Imran
On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Bill Belanger < Bill@...> wrote:
?
David has a bridge to sell too Imran...
Bill Bélanger
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 6:32 AM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
How come I see $480 on Ebay vs the $2K posted here?
Imran
?
OK, Bill, this is getting serious now.
<screenshot_4590.jpg>
On Dec 22, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Bill Bélanger < Bllblngr@...> wrote:
I have placed my copy of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for sale on ebay if anyone is interested.
Bill Bélanger
|
Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
The other interesting question I asked was how much do we think a router bit slows down when under load in a router.? In the shaper it does not slow
at all.? With some electronic variable speed controllers like Festool I think they hold an RPM.? My older single speed routers are 23,000 RPM with no load but as soon as I start cutting the sound pitch drops a lot indicating that the RPMs have dropped a lot.?
I would not be surprised if the ?” straight bit RPMs drop to 15K with a router when cutting.
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of David Kumm
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 10:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:35 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
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Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
My most used router bit is a 1/8” round over. Most of the time it’s in the router spindle already.? It’s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.?
Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it’s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8”.? Just removing a small amount of stock.?
?
If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a
new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates.
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of David Kumm
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 10:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially
having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work
at the 15K range.? Dave
Hi Joe,
?
I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways.
?
I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter
dia less than 100mm. So now we have this:
?
?
However, 4” (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia)
for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise.
?
Here is the data for above graph
?
Imran
?
From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
Number of flutes is important too.
?
?
would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use.
On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:35 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s
lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage.
There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b
I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle?
?
Not meant to be sarcastic…I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate
and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.?
?
I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously,
and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I’ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference.
?
Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router
bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that’s where “you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits” wisdom arose?
?
Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM
is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn’t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot.
?
So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow?
?
?
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
?
This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you
are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings.
?
On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Just sharing. I have no knowledge of this part.
Look at this on eBay
Imran
?
|
Re: VIP Program from Felder
Hey Larry
Maybe we can combine shipping on the FAT 300 to Texas. I live in Austin and my son goes to school At Texas A&M in College station. ?I welcome others from Texas to join in. ?I recommend jumping on the VIP deal before it ends tonight. ?Then figuring out the shipping next week working with FELDER (Lewis). ? Thanks,
Chris Perren 512-415-6951
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On Dec 31, 2020, at 12:05 PM, Larry <larry@...> wrote:
?I had hemmed and hawed about buying a FAT 300 and decided I would order it today. Got most of the way through the process and was ready to order until I noticed that it was going to cost $500 to ship it. My 800# lathe was just a little more than that and it was shipped from Wisconsin...my guess is that the FAT 300 will be shipped from Dallas (I live in the Houston area).?
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Re: CF741, Thicknesser, Feed Roller Problem
Hi Gary,
U.K. (european) terminology better describes the machine function even to the uninitiated. Too bad, looks like you may actually need to adjust or replace.
Please do share your solution since I have experienced what you describe. It is possible that it is just not bad enough yet on my dual51.
Imran
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On Dec 31, 2020, at 3:15 PM, garyfergus84 <garyfergus@...> wrote: ?Hello Imran,
Thanks for the reply, you make a good point but the problem occurs with all timbers including hardwoods, and I wax the tables regularly.
Just a point of clarification. I'm in the UK, I believe what we call the "thicknesser" is called the "planer" in North America.
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imran
Bill Belanger
Larry
Joe Jensen