Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
TJ,
“Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can’t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the blade to use the material stops – e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10” piece off a full sheet I would need 86” right of the blade for clearance, which I don’t have (I actually don’t have it left of the blade either”
if i understand your concern above it is not a felder machine issue rather the space you have for the machine. correct?
imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 5:02 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote: ?
I just purchased a CF531 and have now had it for a couple weeks. I replaced a 52” SawStop cabinet saw. I also previously had a A3/31 jointer/planer. The reason for my change was that I got a CNC machine with a 4’ x 8’ table and have moved
to doing my large sheet processing on the CNC router instead of the table saw. I wanted to reclaim some space.
?
I debated on the Hammer C3 and also just a saw shaper but ended up getting the CF531 for the nicer XRoll table and the tilting shaper. I got the full combo instead of just a saw shaper because the extra jointer/planer function was only
about $2K more than the saw shaper version and also provided some more table surface area.
?
I’m not very far into the machine and this is my first sliding saw, but here are a few initial thoughts:
?
- Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can’t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the
blade to use the material stops – e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10” piece off a full sheet I would need 86” right of the blade for clearance, which I don’t have (I actually don’t have it left of the blade either – I would probably do that cut with either the track
saw or the CNC router.
- The CF531 slider is perfect for 5’ x 5’ plywood sheets.
- There are some operations that are harder [for me] to do the slider way and therefore I use conventional saw techniques – ripping boards longer than 6’, or combination techniques –
using the fence to put the kept piece of wood to the right of the blade but still using the sliding table to maneuver the rest of the sheet
- The hole in the table between the saw section and the J/P section is mildly annoying to work around – if you want to set the fence at 18” you’re doing it with a tape measure rather
than the fence scale. This is a minor nuisance only.
- If you can plan your project where you do your operations in order, then the combination machine is totally functional. If you do a bunch of one-off things where you bounce between
saw and planer especially, the changeovers get annoying fast.
- There are a ton of options that take a lot of time to sort through. If you decide to order one, do your homework to figure out what you need and what the choices are. I had probably
30 hours of research and 4 hours of phone calls with my sales rep.
?
At this point, I think I’m going to keep my A3/31 J/P along with the CF531. The way my shop is laid out I will probably do most of the jointing on the CF531 and planning on the A3/31, but could swap that around depending on the needs of
the job in hand.
?
Short version – if you have a 10,000 sq ft shop and a rich benefactor, then a combo machine is not for you. If you have limited space like I have and your projects are usually on the smaller side, especially if you can plan all of your
construction steps to minimize tool changes, then the combo machine is probably fine.
?
Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
Rule 1 with a combi. ?Always, but always rip, plane and thickness an extra length or two. ?DAMHIKT.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 17 Aug 2020, at 22:02, TJ Cornish < tj@...> wrote:
I just purchased a CF531 and have now had it for a couple weeks. I replaced a 52” SawStop cabinet saw. I also previously had a A3/31 jointer/planer. The reason for my change was that I got a CNC machine with a 4’ x 8’ table and have moved to doing my large sheet processing on the CNC router instead of the table saw. I wanted to reclaim some space. ? I debated on the Hammer C3 and also just a saw shaper but ended up getting the CF531 for the nicer XRoll table and the tilting shaper. I got the full combo instead of just a saw shaper because the extra jointer/planer function was only about $2K more than the saw shaper version and also provided some more table surface area. ? I’m not very far into the machine and this is my first sliding saw, but here are a few initial thoughts: ? - Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can’t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the blade to use the material stops – e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10” piece off a full sheet I would need 86” right of the blade for clearance, which I don’t have (I actually don’t have it left of the blade either – I would probably do that cut with either the track saw or the CNC router.
- The CF531 slider is perfect for 5’ x 5’ plywood sheets.
- There are some operations that are harder [for me] to do the slider way and therefore I use conventional saw techniques – ripping boards longer than 6’, or combination techniques – using the fence to put the kept piece of wood to the right of the blade but still using the sliding table to maneuver the rest of the sheet
- The hole in the table between the saw section and the J/P section is mildly annoying to work around – if you want to set the fence at 18” you’re doing it with a tape measure rather than the fence scale. This is a minor nuisance only.
- If you can plan your project where you do your operations in order, then the combination machine is totally functional. If you do a bunch of one-off things where you bounce between saw and planer especially, the changeovers get annoying fast.
- There are a ton of options that take a lot of time to sort through. If you decide to order one, do your homework to figure out what you need and what the choices are. I had probably 30 hours of research and 4 hours of phone calls with my sales rep.
? At this point, I think I’m going to keep my A3/31 J/P along with the CF531. The way my shop is laid out I will probably do most of the jointing on the CF531 and planning on the A3/31, but could swap that around depending on the needs of the job in hand. ? Short version – if you have a 10,000 sq ft shop and a rich benefactor, then a combo machine is not for you. If you have limited space like I have and your projects are usually on the smaller side, especially if you can plan all of your construction steps to minimize tool changes, then the combo machine is probably fine. ? Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK?
|
Re: dust collection question
it has been a long while but i recall my KF having an adj current sense relay.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 4:43 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote: ?My father produces a metalworking machine and I assisted him in setting up the magnetic starter/overload protection box, which in the case of the product he was using was adjustable. My father's machine is user-fed, meaning that the load on the motor is proportional to how hard you push on the thing, very much like most woodworking tools. Based on the empirical testing we did, it is indeed difficult to know how hard you are pushing, especially with changing conditions like a dulling cutter or harder material. I think the best way to determine when you've reached the limit is by watching the motor current draw. When you've hit the full load amps as defined by Felder, then you're done. The motor will probably have more gas in the tank for short bursts, but that's approaching the red line. I just changed from a SawStop industrial saw with a 5HP motor to the ~4HP motor in my new CF531 combo machine. I'm not sure if I'm still adjusting to the different feel of pushing via the slider compared to just pushing the material into the blade, but I would say that working with 3/4" Baltic birch I have had to back off my feed rate compared to what I was used to on the 5HP Sawstop. Someday I'll pull out my current clamp and try to get an idea of if I'm overdriving my machine. For now I'm using my eyes and ears. RE load protection - I don't think I have a copy of the wiring schematic to see if there is overcurrent protection inside my machine, but I think it's interesting that Felder states that this machine should be protected by a breaker not larger than 20A (yes I know we recently discussed this on the list and that most people put it on a 30A). The cord my machine came with has 2.5mm conductors which translates to 13 AWG and slightly less than 20A ampacity. ?On 8/17/20, 1:08 PM, " [email protected] on behalf of imranindiana via groups.io" < [email protected] on behalf of imranindiana@...> wrote: as a concept, i have no issues with duty classification of motors. it allows manufacturer to provide a cost effective solution for each application. i just have a problem with derating a motor in an application where the load can exceed the derated HP. i hope that in such cases there are appropriate thermal limits or other protective measures to protect the motor because as a user i have no clue what level of load i am presenting to the motor. imran On Aug 17, 2020, at 1:05 PM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote:
?On 17-8-2020 16:49, Brian Lamb wrote:
3hp is 3hp, doesn’t matter if it’s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don’t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor…. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick. No it is not. It has to do with duty cycles and periods under load and reaching thermal equilibrium. S1 means continuous duty under load, S6 means continuous operation with periodic duty, which means the difference between S1 and S6 is that in the latter situation the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping for a while in between periods of use. See for illustrative diagrams and explanation: Regards, Jonathan
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
I just purchased a CF531 and have now had it for a couple weeks. I replaced a 52” SawStop cabinet saw. I also previously had a A3/31 jointer/planer. The reason for my change was that I got a CNC machine with a 4’ x 8’ table and have moved
to doing my large sheet processing on the CNC router instead of the table saw. I wanted to reclaim some space.
?
I debated on the Hammer C3 and also just a saw shaper but ended up getting the CF531 for the nicer XRoll table and the tilting shaper. I got the full combo instead of just a saw shaper because the extra jointer/planer function was only
about $2K more than the saw shaper version and also provided some more table surface area.
?
I’m not very far into the machine and this is my first sliding saw, but here are a few initial thoughts:
?
- Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can’t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the
blade to use the material stops – e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10” piece off a full sheet I would need 86” right of the blade for clearance, which I don’t have (I actually don’t have it left of the blade either – I would probably do that cut with either the track
saw or the CNC router.
- The CF531 slider is perfect for 5’ x 5’ plywood sheets.
- There are some operations that are harder [for me] to do the slider way and therefore I use conventional saw techniques – ripping boards longer than 6’, or combination techniques –
using the fence to put the kept piece of wood to the right of the blade but still using the sliding table to maneuver the rest of the sheet
- The hole in the table between the saw section and the J/P section is mildly annoying to work around – if you want to set the fence at 18” you’re doing it with a tape measure rather
than the fence scale. This is a minor nuisance only.
- If you can plan your project where you do your operations in order, then the combination machine is totally functional. If you do a bunch of one-off things where you bounce between
saw and planer especially, the changeovers get annoying fast.
- There are a ton of options that take a lot of time to sort through. If you decide to order one, do your homework to figure out what you need and what the choices are. I had probably
30 hours of research and 4 hours of phone calls with my sales rep.
?
At this point, I think I’m going to keep my A3/31 J/P along with the CF531. The way my shop is laid out I will probably do most of the jointing on the CF531 and planning on the A3/31, but could swap that around depending on the needs of
the job in hand.
?
Short version – if you have a 10,000 sq ft shop and a rich benefactor, then a combo machine is not for you. If you have limited space like I have and your projects are usually on the smaller side, especially if you can plan all of your
construction steps to minimize tool changes, then the combo machine is probably fine.
?
Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
Mark,
Thanks for the input!? What combo do you own?
PK
|
Re: dust collection question
My father produces a metalworking machine and I assisted him in setting up the magnetic starter/overload protection box, which in the case of the product he was using was adjustable. My father's machine is user-fed, meaning that the load on the motor is proportional to how hard you push on the thing, very much like most woodworking tools. Based on the empirical testing we did, it is indeed difficult to know how hard you are pushing, especially with changing conditions like a dulling cutter or harder material. I think the best way to determine when you've reached the limit is by watching the motor current draw. When you've hit the full load amps as defined by Felder, then you're done. The motor will probably have more gas in the tank for short bursts, but that's approaching the red line. I just changed from a SawStop industrial saw with a 5HP motor to the ~4HP motor in my new CF531 combo machine. I'm not sure if I'm still adjusting to the different feel of pushing via the slider compared to just pushing the material into the blade, but I would say that working with 3/4" Baltic birch I have had to back off my feed rate compared to what I was used to on the 5HP Sawstop. Someday I'll pull out my current clamp and try to get an idea of if I'm overdriving my machine. For now I'm using my eyes and ears. RE load protection - I don't think I have a copy of the wiring schematic to see if there is overcurrent protection inside my machine, but I think it's interesting that Felder states that this machine should be protected by a breaker not larger than 20A (yes I know we recently discussed this on the list and that most people put it on a 30A). The cord my machine came with has 2.5mm conductors which translates to 13 AWG and slightly less than 20A ampacity. ?On 8/17/20, 1:08 PM, " [email protected] on behalf of imranindiana via groups.io" < [email protected] on behalf of imranindiana@...> wrote: as a concept, i have no issues with duty classification of motors. it allows manufacturer to provide a cost effective solution for each application. i just have a problem with derating a motor in an application where the load can exceed the derated HP. i hope that in such cases there are appropriate thermal limits or other protective measures to protect the motor because as a user i have no clue what level of load i am presenting to the motor. imran
On Aug 17, 2020, at 1:05 PM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote:
?On 17-8-2020 16:49, Brian Lamb wrote:
> 3hp is 3hp, doesn’t matter if it’s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don’t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor…. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick.
No it is not. It has to do with duty cycles and periods under load and reaching thermal equilibrium.
S1 means continuous duty under load, S6 means continuous operation with periodic duty, which means the difference between S1 and S6 is that in the latter situation the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping for a while in between periods of use.
See for illustrative diagrams and explanation:
Regards,
Jonathan
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
Yes, I have one, my shop is 685 sq feet and I am a hobbiest. I think it is the perfect machine for me. Sure a separate would be nice but I do not have room and the budget point for a saw/shaper is nicer than separates.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK
|
Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK
|
Re: dust collection question
Brian,
Can you tell from the tag if the motors in my CF731 are S1 or S6?
The tag on the CF731 says 3kw but the motors say 2kw.
Joe in New Orleans
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:45 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
?I’m not sure what you mean by “no it is not”, a marketing gimmick? If so, yes it is. They get to call the motor a larger hp than it can provide running full load S1. If you dig into the actual motor specs, which I did years ago (2001 when I got my machines) you will find that the diameter and lengths of the motor are different depending upon the rating. The S6 3kw motors I got were actually only 2.2kw S1 motors.
In actuality Felder should be supplying S7 motors and not S6, as they allow for more frequent starts and stops.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
On Aug 17, 2020, at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote:
On 17-8-2020 16:49, Brian Lamb wrote:
3hp is 3hp, doesn’t matter if it’s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don’t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor…. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick. No it is not. It has to do with duty cycles and periods under load and reaching thermal equilibrium.
S1 means continuous duty under load, S6 means continuous operation with periodic duty, which means the difference between S1 and S6 is that in the latter situation the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping for a while in between periods of use.
See for illustrative diagrams and explanation:
Regards,
Jonathan
|
Re: dust collection question
as a concept, i have no issues with duty classification of motors. it allows manufacturer to provide a cost effective solution for each application.
i just have a problem with derating a motor in an application where the load can exceed the derated HP. i hope that in such cases there are appropriate thermal limits or other protective measures to protect the motor because as a user i have no clue what level of load i am presenting to the motor.
imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 1:05 PM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote: ?On 17-8-2020 16:49, Brian Lamb wrote: 3hp is 3hp, doesn’t matter if it’s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don’t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor…. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick. No it is not. It has to do with duty cycles and periods under load and reaching thermal equilibrium. S1 means continuous duty under load, S6 means continuous operation with periodic duty, which means the difference between S1 and S6 is that in the latter situation the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping for a while in between periods of use. See for illustrative diagrams and explanation: Regards, Jonathan
|
Re: dust collection question
I’m not sure what you mean by “no it is not”, a marketing gimmick? If so, yes it is. They get to call the motor a larger hp than it can provide running full load S1. If you dig into the actual motor specs, which I did years ago (2001 when I got my machines) you will find that the diameter and lengths of the motor are different depending upon the rating. The S6 3kw motors I got were actually only 2.2kw S1 motors.
In actuality Felder should be supplying S7 motors and not S6, as they allow for more frequent starts and stops.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote:
On 17-8-2020 16:49, Brian Lamb wrote:
3hp is 3hp, doesn’t matter if it’s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don’t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor…. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick. No it is not. It has to do with duty cycles and periods under load and reaching thermal equilibrium.
S1 means continuous duty under load, S6 means continuous operation with periodic duty, which means the difference between S1 and S6 is that in the latter situation the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping for a while in between periods of use.
See for illustrative diagrams and explanation:
Regards,
Jonathan
|
Re: dust collection question
On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 08:43 AM, imranindiana wrote:
high torque of diesel moves weight more efficiently than a gasoline engine
You're confusing torque (force), HP (work) and efficiency.? ?You should do some reading to get these concepts straight. Analogies to ICE is also complicated by different energy densities -- diesel has more energy per unit mass than gasoline does, and there is analog to this in 1P v 3P.
|
Re: dust collection question
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 1:00 PM, jmkserv@... wrote: ?
Sorry Imran couldn't resist pal, now that you've joined the senior crowd.?
-------- Original message -------- From: "imranindiana via groups.io" <imranindiana@...> Date: 2020-08-17 12:43 p.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
okay John, 3100 cubic meter per hr.
On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:09 PM, jmkserv@... wrote:
?
I would really like to see what it takes to produce 3100 cubic meters/sec. Big LOL.?
-------- Original message -------- From: "imranindiana via groups.io" <imranindiana@...> Date: 2020-08-17 11:43 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
this has been a point of interest for my nerd self. when i saw the AF22 spec (which BTW is 3100cubicm/s) it made me think diesel vs gasoline engines as a very loose comparison. high torque of diesel moves weight more efficiently than a gasoline engine. same HP diesel engine can have twice the torque. so just talking out loud.
i am trying to find torque vs current plots of 3ph and 1ph motors to see if i learn something.
imran
On Aug 17, 2020, at 11:06 AM, jmkserv@... wrote:
?
Also Felder has proven over the years their actual specs listed in catalogs are up for debate as far air flow goes. Many misprint. Austria being a metric country calculate in Cubic Meters per minute which sometimes gets confusing for those accustomed to Cubic Feet per minute.?
-------- Original message -------- From: Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> Date: 2020-08-17 10:49 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
3hp is 3hp, doesn’t matter if it’s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don’t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor…. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick.
when i look up AF 22 on eshop there is something interesting. 3HP, 3ph moves same amount of air as 4HP, 1ph unit. anyone know if these specifications are correct?
i am interested in understanding if 3ph motor has advantage over 1ph. this might be a good example possibly showing (or not) that the higher torque of 3ph can do more actual work under load than a 1ph motor both pulling same current.
imran? ?I have an AF 22 for sale.? It can be wall mounted up out of the way and use just on bag to save space.
|
Re: dust collection question
On 17-8-2020 16:49, Brian Lamb wrote: 3hp is 3hp, doesn’t matter if it’s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don’t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor…. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick. No it is not. It has to do with duty cycles and periods under load and reaching thermal equilibrium. S1 means continuous duty under load, S6 means continuous operation with periodic duty, which means the difference between S1 and S6 is that in the latter situation the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping for a while in between periods of use. See for illustrative diagrams and explanation: Regards, Jonathan
|
Re: dust collection question
Sorry Imran couldn't resist pal, now that you've joined the senior crowd.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: "imranindiana via groups.io" <imranindiana@...> Date: 2020-08-17 12:43 p.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
okay John, 3100 cubic meter per hr.
On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:09 PM, jmkserv@... wrote:
?
I would really like to see what it takes to produce 3100 cubic meters/sec. Big LOL.?
-------- Original message -------- From: "imranindiana via groups.io" <imranindiana@...> Date: 2020-08-17 11:43 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
this has been a point of interest for my nerd self. when i saw the AF22 spec (which BTW is 3100cubicm/s) it made me think diesel vs gasoline engines as a very loose comparison. high torque of diesel moves weight more efficiently than a gasoline engine. same HP diesel engine can have twice the torque. so just talking out loud.
i am trying to find torque vs current plots of 3ph and 1ph motors to see if i learn something.
imran
On Aug 17, 2020, at 11:06 AM, jmkserv@... wrote:
?
Also Felder has proven over the years their actual specs listed in catalogs are up for debate as far air flow goes. Many misprint. Austria being a metric country calculate in Cubic Meters per minute which sometimes gets confusing for those accustomed to Cubic Feet per minute.?
-------- Original message -------- From: Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> Date: 2020-08-17 10:49 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
3hp is 3hp, doesn’t matter if it’s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don’t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor…. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick.
when i look up AF 22 on eshop there is something interesting. 3HP, 3ph moves same amount of air as 4HP, 1ph unit. anyone know if these specifications are correct?
i am interested in understanding if 3ph motor has advantage over 1ph. this might be a good example possibly showing (or not) that the higher torque of 3ph can do more actual work under load than a 1ph motor both pulling same current.
imran? ?I have an AF 22 for sale.? It can be wall mounted up out of the way and use just on bag to save space.
|
Re: dust collection question
okay John, 3100 cubic meter per hr.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:09 PM, jmkserv@... wrote: ?
I would really like to see what it takes to produce 3100 cubic meters/sec. Big LOL.?
-------- Original message -------- From: "imranindiana via groups.io" <imranindiana@...> Date: 2020-08-17 11:43 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
this has been a point of interest for my nerd self. when i saw the AF22 spec (which BTW is 3100cubicm/s) it made me think diesel vs gasoline engines as a very loose comparison. high torque of diesel moves weight more efficiently than a gasoline engine. same HP diesel engine can have twice the torque. so just talking out loud.
i am trying to find torque vs current plots of 3ph and 1ph motors to see if i learn something.
imran
On Aug 17, 2020, at 11:06 AM, jmkserv@... wrote:
?
Also Felder has proven over the years their actual specs listed in catalogs are up for debate as far air flow goes. Many misprint. Austria being a metric country calculate in Cubic Meters per minute which sometimes gets confusing for those accustomed to Cubic Feet per minute.?
-------- Original message -------- From: Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> Date: 2020-08-17 10:49 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
3hp is 3hp, doesn’t matter if it’s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don’t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor…. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick.
when i look up AF 22 on eshop there is something interesting. 3HP, 3ph moves same amount of air as 4HP, 1ph unit. anyone know if these specifications are correct?
i am interested in understanding if 3ph motor has advantage over 1ph. this might be a good example possibly showing (or not) that the higher torque of 3ph can do more actual work under load than a 1ph motor both pulling same current.
imran? ?I have an AF 22 for sale.? It can be wall mounted up out of the way and use just on bag to save space.
|
Re: dust collection question
Well torque is a real number while HP is a calculation based on torque until you get into bullshit marketing.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: "imranindiana via groups.io" <imranindiana@...> Date: 2020-08-17 11:43 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
this has been a point of interest for my nerd self. when i saw the AF22 spec (which BTW is 3100cubicm/s) it made me think diesel vs gasoline engines as a very loose comparison. high torque of diesel moves weight more efficiently than a gasoline engine. same HP diesel engine can have twice the torque. so just talking out loud.
i am trying to find torque vs current plots of 3ph and 1ph motors to see if i learn something.
imran
On Aug 17, 2020, at 11:06 AM, jmkserv@... wrote:
?
Also Felder has proven over the years their actual specs listed in catalogs are up for debate as far air flow goes. Many misprint. Austria being a metric country calculate in Cubic Meters per minute which sometimes gets confusing for those accustomed to Cubic Feet per minute.?
-------- Original message -------- From: Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> Date: 2020-08-17 10:49 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
3hp is 3hp, doesn’t matter if it’s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don’t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor…. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick.
when i look up AF 22 on eshop there is something interesting. 3HP, 3ph moves same amount of air as 4HP, 1ph unit. anyone know if these specifications are correct?
i am interested in understanding if 3ph motor has advantage over 1ph. this might be a good example possibly showing (or not) that the higher torque of 3ph can do more actual work under load than a 1ph motor both pulling same current.
imran? ?I have an AF 22 for sale.? It can be wall mounted up out of the way and use just on bag to save space.
|
Re: dust collection question
I would really like to see what it takes to produce 3100 cubic meters/sec. Big LOL.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: "imranindiana via groups.io" <imranindiana@...> Date: 2020-08-17 11:43 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
this has been a point of interest for my nerd self. when i saw the AF22 spec (which BTW is 3100cubicm/s) it made me think diesel vs gasoline engines as a very loose comparison. high torque of diesel moves weight more efficiently than a gasoline engine. same HP diesel engine can have twice the torque. so just talking out loud.
i am trying to find torque vs current plots of 3ph and 1ph motors to see if i learn something.
imran
On Aug 17, 2020, at 11:06 AM, jmkserv@... wrote:
?
Also Felder has proven over the years their actual specs listed in catalogs are up for debate as far air flow goes. Many misprint. Austria being a metric country calculate in Cubic Meters per minute which sometimes gets confusing for those accustomed to Cubic Feet per minute.?
-------- Original message -------- From: Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> Date: 2020-08-17 10:49 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
3hp is 3hp, doesn’t matter if it’s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don’t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor…. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick.
when i look up AF 22 on eshop there is something interesting. 3HP, 3ph moves same amount of air as 4HP, 1ph unit. anyone know if these specifications are correct?
i am interested in understanding if 3ph motor has advantage over 1ph. this might be a good example possibly showing (or not) that the higher torque of 3ph can do more actual work under load than a 1ph motor both pulling same current.
imran? ?I have an AF 22 for sale.? It can be wall mounted up out of the way and use just on bag to save space.
|
Re: dust collection question
The whole European S ratings are a gimmick for marketing, but they can sell a motor that’s S6 on the saw because saws are very rarely running at full load unless it was some automated rip saw that was being power fed continuously. Dust collectors and compressors run at full load all the time, so they get S1 motors.
Here in the US, we rate motors at HP and then give them a duty rating. A 4hp 100% duty rating motor will put out 4hp continuous without overheating and toasting the windings. If you have an occasionally intermittent overload, you might want to spec a 4hp motor with a 135% duty rating, which means it can effectively run at 35% over 4hp continuously without toasting the windings. It’s all about heat dissipation without breaking down the insulation on the windings.
It’s kind of a six of one, half dozen of the other way of looking at things. It just seems a little more upfront with the US ratings because your motor will never be less than the stated hp regardless of the duty rating, where the European standard allows them to call a motor 5hp but you can only fun it at that 60% of the time and it’s actually only a 4hp continuous motor.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 8:41 AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Brian,
“the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor”
i have read this before. i believe this means that a 4hp motor can be sold as s6 or as derated 3hp-s1.
i can see the 3hp-s1 derating work in an application like a compressor where the manufacturer knows that load will not exceed 3hp but how does it work when load is user controlled and in many cases impossible to know, e.g. sawing.
maybe, the derating of motors is only done in applications with known load. i would think dust collector is such application. max load of unrestricted operation is hard to exceed.
just thinking.
imran
|
Re: dust collection question
this has been a point of interest for my nerd self. when i saw the AF22 spec (which BTW is 3100cubicm/s) it made me think diesel vs gasoline engines as a very loose comparison. high torque of diesel moves weight more efficiently than a gasoline engine. same HP diesel engine can have twice the torque. so just talking out loud.
i am trying to find torque vs current plots of 3ph and 1ph motors to see if i learn something.
imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 11:06 AM, jmkserv@... wrote: ?
Also Felder has proven over the years their actual specs listed in catalogs are up for debate as far air flow goes. Many misprint. Austria being a metric country calculate in Cubic Meters per minute which sometimes gets confusing for those accustomed to Cubic Feet per minute.?
-------- Original message -------- From: Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> Date: 2020-08-17 10:49 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
3hp is 3hp, doesn’t matter if it’s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don’t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor…. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick.
when i look up AF 22 on eshop there is something interesting. 3HP, 3ph moves same amount of air as 4HP, 1ph unit. anyone know if these specifications are correct?
i am interested in understanding if 3ph motor has advantage over 1ph. this might be a good example possibly showing (or not) that the higher torque of 3ph can do more actual work under load than a 1ph motor both pulling same current.
imran? ?I have an AF 22 for sale.? It can be wall mounted up out of the way and use just on bag to save space.
|
imran
PK
Mark Foster
Jonathan Martens