I will not be attending for the same reasons.? Any deals will be available to anyone and not just those attending, I¡¯m sure
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Jason Holtz
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 2:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] IWF 2020
?
I'm with David and Alex on this. I'm in no hurry to be in a convention center with that many people. Much more important events in my life have already been cancelled for this summer already. We've all got vulnerable people that are close
to us, even if we are invincible ourselves. We need to think of them now.
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
It¡¯s the cf741. If I turn it sideways after taking it down I can gain another 4 inches of space.
Get
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Thanks Michael. What machine is this ¨C is it a CF531?
?
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I'm with David and Alex on this. I'm in no hurry to be in a convention center with that many people. Much more important events in my life have already been cancelled for this summer already. We've all got vulnerable people that are close to us, even if we are invincible ourselves. We need to think of them now.
Jason Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Thanks Michael. What machine is this ¨C is it a CF531?
?
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Thanks Imran. I'm trying to get a feel for how far out the shaper sticks if I did the tilting mount. Attached is a drawing of the CF531 which seems to show about 20" of space between the back of the shaper section and the infeed side of the jointer table. Also attached is a screen shot of a YouTube video of the shaper folded down on a B3. On the B3 it seems like it sticks out a long way. I'm wondering if that would be a problem on the CF531 since the jointer/planer is quite a bit longer than the saw/shaper section.  
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Re: Off topic - Best way to power a Japanese machine - transformer or VFD or ?
What kind of machine is it? Is it just a simple single motor with no other control electronics? If so this should straightforward with a VFD.
?
Be careful that many VFDs do not like hot breaking the load ¨C using the power switch on the machine sends the back EMF into the drive and can fry things. For my Bridgeport VFD project, I rewired the existing Bridgeport power/direction switch
to feed control inputs on the VFD and then directly wired the motor into the VFD. That way the ergonomics of the Bridgeport are unchanged but the VFD is happy.
?
Hello,
I am no electrical engineer, so I am looking for advice regarding the best method to power a Japanese machine that requires 200 V, 3-phase, 50 Hz power with a 2.2 kW motor.
My Felder machines are powered by a Phase Perfect PT-330, drawing power off of a 90-amp sub panel in the shop.? From what I read, either a transformer for the PT-330 or a VFD drawing 2-phase power to convert to 3 phase.? Even though I am leaning toward a VFD
as the ratio of voltage and frequency is the same at 0.83 (200/240 V = 0.83, 50/60 Hz = 0.83), I am not sure if it is acceptable/possible to use it to power the electrical components of the machine.??
What do you all think?
SW
?
|
Off topic - Best way to power a Japanese machine - transformer or VFD or ?
Hello,
I am no electrical engineer, so I am looking for advice regarding the best method to power a Japanese machine that requires 200 V, 3-phase, 50 Hz power with a 2.2 kW motor.
My Felder machines are powered by a Phase Perfect PT-330, drawing power off of a 90-amp sub panel in the shop.? From what I read, either a transformer for the PT-330 or a VFD drawing 2-phase power to convert to 3 phase.? Even though I am leaning toward a VFD as the ratio of voltage and frequency is the same at 0.83 (200/240 V = 0.83, 50/60 Hz = 0.83), I am not sure if it is acceptable/possible to use it to power the electrical components of the machine.??
What do you all think?
SW
?
|
Thanks Correy ¨C this is extremely helpful. For basic stuff I will look at the Freud or equivalent brazed tools.
?
TJ,? the limiter heads? heads are similar to brazed tooling in regards to antikick back as the clearance is still about 1mm. Being that the body of brazed tooling is the limiter. These would be considered safer
than a standard american corrugated head where the knife may stick out a whole 1.5" greater than the diameter of the head. They do not feel or look safe for hand feeding at all.
?Having a couple common profiles, like a round over that you can drop in easy on the shaper is key to fast consistent work. About the same amount of time as mounting a router bit. I also like the frued for a cheap profiles that you may only need to use once
in a while.? The 3/4 dual? round over/cove cutter I thought was a good value.?
There are a few different grades of carbide. Frued claims to use a C3 which is considered good. Most any profile head with corrugated knives even with limiters can have carbide knives. It's much more expensive than HSS so you probably wont see them in kits.
It's generally 150~200% more for carbide knives over HSS. HSS is when you only need a few hundred feet with exceptional finish in hardwood, Or 1200 to 1500 feet in soft wood (without knots). Carbide will do about 2500~3000 linear feet in medium hardwoods.
HSS might only do 20 feet in some tropical hardwoods. So in teak Carbide is way more economical than HSS. But in softer woods HSS might out perform as the finish quality in say alaskan cedar is quite exception compared to carbide finishes in the same species.
?Carbide insert are expensive but you get alot of work out of them. But in the long term I suppose an investment in to a "system" that uses the higher grades of carbide might be the most economical in the long run, but with much more investment up front. i.e.
rangate tooling
|
The CF531 has essentially the Hammer shaper, so no, it¡¯s not the same as the Felder.? The picture in the E Shop shows the entirety of the kit ¨C it¡¯s simply a spindle with an ER20 collet chuck. The description says 10,000 RPM.
?
?
?
On my old CF731 the high speed router spindle runs at 15k. ?It has a different size fully and separate belt than the router spindles that run at the lower speeds.
Does the CF531 high speed router spindle not work the same way?
?
It is OK to trim the back quotes from your messages
?
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On my old CF731 the high speed router spindle runs at 15k. ?It has a different size fully and separate belt than the router spindles that run at the lower speeds.
Does the CF531 high speed router spindle not work the same way?
It is OK to trim the back quotes from your messages
|
IWF, like so many others, is ruled by $$$. ?100,000 people have died due to this bug in the US alone, and the number will likely more than double before a vaccine or reliable treatment is developed. ?
For me, the risk is too great. ?If I¡¯m exposed, I risk passing it to my 80 year old mother or my 71 year old business partner in cancer treatments. ? How many of us have elderly parents? ?Hell, at 61, I¡¯m fast approaching that high risk category, despite remaining in good physical condition and flood health.
Fensertbau was first postponed, now it is officially canceled. ?I lost $3500 in an attempt to attend that show for the first time. ?I wonder how many vendors will pull out out of IWF. ?Even if the event occurs, will it be so much smaller that it isn¡¯t even worth the risk?
Time is precious, more so as we grow older. ?Even so, I can wait. ?I hope all of you evaluate the risks and make the best decisions for yourselves.
Stay safe,
Alex
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On May 26, 2020, at 9:00 AM, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote:
? I'm curious what everybody's thoughts are about attending IWF this year?? I just received an email saying it's still a go and 91 days away.? SWMBO isn't overly excited about the prospect so I may be out.
?I wonder if there will be IWF discounts for those not wanting to attend during this pandemic?? Post them if you hear about any. ?Dave
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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Dave, I will consider IWF (or any other large gathering) when something definitive changes on the medical side, like: - an effective treatment for Covid-19
- a vaccine to provide immunity to Covid-19
- herd immunity across the USA
None of those conditions exist today, or are likely to by IWF.
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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I'm curious what everybody's thoughts are about attending IWF this year?? I just received an email saying it's still a go and 91 days away.? SWMBO isn't overly excited about the prospect so I may be out.
?I wonder if there will be IWF discounts for those not wanting to attend during this pandemic?? Post them if you hear about any. ?Dave
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: Building a closet for dust collector
Sorry, another thought.? In our building project the city required us to hire a Mechanical engineer to do the HVAC design.? He modeled the building
itself, insulation, windows, overhead doors, etc to determine how many tons of cooling I needed.? We then sat with me to understand machine usage.? How many HP, how continuous, how many machines at one time, lighting, etc. to determine the heat load.? In the
initial work I talked about running the dust collector (5HP) for 4 hours a day and running 5HP machines 3 hours and a 40HP wide belt for 1 hr per day.? Modeling that and keeping it cool with an outside temp of 115 was going to require 10 tons of cooling, WOW.?
When we said if it was over 110 outside I would not use the machines as much and we said I would not run 4 hours continuously we found I needed 5 tons. I am still worried that 5 tons is not enough even though I have a lot of spray foam and we have foam inside
and on the exterior of the side walls.
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Michael Tagge
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 9:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Building a closet for dust collector
?
Maybe it¡¯s better to think of work and heat as both being kinetic energy. ¡°Work¡± is potential energy converted to mechanical energy which is kinetic and potential energy into the system. This potential energy can be stepwise converted down
the line to heat as the final result or other work along the way. And the road goes on until heat equilibrium or all particles in the system are moving at the same speed so no transfers can occur and all potential is exhausted. Universally, this is the theoretical
¡°heat death¡± although that¡¯s a topic to explore on your own.
Brian, the point is doing the work creates heat too.? Take a milling machine.? The motor has inefficiency, heat. The motor moves things in the mill, some friction some more heat.? Then the cutter removes metal, more heat. The coolant cools
the metal warming the coolant. 100% of the energy in ends up as either potential energy like raising a hoist, or heat. With lighting the energy either turns into light which shines on objects and heats them or it is wasted in the LED driver etc.
?
You all are missing the point that a lot of the hp/watts is actually consumed doing the ¡°work¡±, whether it¡¯s sawing the wood, jointing, planing, sanding, lighting or even compressing air. It takes force to do most of these things (not
lighting of course), and the force of the blade cutting through the wood is a large percentage of the watts consumed. Yes, there is always a heat load, but it¡¯s not anywhere close to 100% of consumed power¡. even here in AZ where it will be 111? later this
week.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
?
?
You all are missing the point that a lot of the hp/watts is actually consumed doing the ¡°work¡±, whether it¡¯s sawing the wood, jointing, planing, sanding, lighting or even compressing air. It takes force to do most of these things (not
lighting of course), and the force of the blade cutting through the wood is a large percentage of the watts consumed. Yes, there is always a heat load, but it¡¯s not anywhere close to 100% of consumed power¡. even here in AZ where it will be 111? later this
week.
?
?
I think perhaps the issue then is the usual workload of a typical shop. Although in an it system things are, I imagine, a bit more stable in terms of draw and power use,
that is not the case for most shops not in a factory environment. We tend to turn on and off equipment and not be steadily throwing plank after plank in rapid succession thorough a saw at max force leading to an actual nameplate type draw. Whereas computer
fans are typically more blunt force objects running at max 100% of the time to account for a potentially catastrophic consequence of failing to control heat in a limited space and the consequences of those failures. And so, I may allow for a total heat release
into your shop for the sake of argument, but even then, the draw is variable and subsequently the heat release. If the OP is concerned about utilizing a motor and dealing with the heat for 100% utilization, he is probably 1) not using the right equipment as
Felder doesn¡¯t spec the duty as 100%, and 2) in the wrong forum and needs to be talking to factory owners.
But in more real world situations, we don¡¯t use 100% draw even when we are using machines most of the time, turn them off between runs, have leaks under a doors, windows
to radiate out, poor insulation to not contain heat or cold, and a myriad of other issues. Sure, running motors will increase heat but it¡¯s not a 1:1 in any of our shops, and especially not at nameplate levels.
I think you just said mostly what I did ¨C that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.?
?
8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat
may not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it¡¯s put into the room, no if¡¯s, and¡¯s, or but¡¯s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater.
?
Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg ¨C the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it
is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there
is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that¡¯s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution.
?
RE designing HVAC based on electrical load ¨C yes, this is exactly how it¡¯s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it¡¯s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing
equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ??
?
Small spaces like workshops ¨C small closed systems ¨C will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability.
?
I agree it¡¯s complicated, and I¡¯m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I¡¯m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff ¨C the reason I joined the group ¨C happens when the complexity
is welcomed.??
?
No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop. Within
systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely in the
electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy is released
slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much about sizing
hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it.
Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop.
?
A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting,
sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood.
?
It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of
heat in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true.
?
I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct.
¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡±
Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat.
?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander
running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran
machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
?
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
The moving wood fibers does consume energy.? The tearing/cutting creates movement and heat. The movement creates heat.? In the end the fiber is moved
and the movements ends up creating heat.
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Brian Lamb
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 8:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Building a closet for dust collector
?
You think no energy is consumed shearing the wood fibers? Maybe I¡¯m an idiot, but I don¡¯t think all energy is equated to heat gain in the building. There is theoretical and there is practical.
?
?
Brian, where then did the energy go?? Idling a saw energy is mostly losses in the motor.? The rest is moving the air near the blade and that heats the
air???
This is a fundamental physics reality.? Not really debatable¡joe
No, not all energy to do the work is converted to heat. For example, your saw idles at say 1hp, a heavy cut is consuming 3hp, that¡¯s a 2hp or 1500W increase. Picture a 1500W heater, which efficiently converts all it¡¯s watts to heat, do
you really think you pumped out 1500W of heat into the shop taking a cut with the saw? No, you might have gotten 100W of heat in the cut, but everything else was consumed doing the actual work.
That is where I started. At least 80% of the energy is consumed in doing work otherwise it is a pretty inefficient setup. But these guys have convinced me that the energy used to do the work is also released as thermal energy in the environment.
I have never thought of this before. It makes sense to me.
On May 23, 2020, at 10:36 AM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
?You all are missing the point that a lot of the hp/watts is actually consumed doing the ¡°work¡±, whether it¡¯s sawing the wood, jointing, planing, sanding, lighting or even compressing air. It takes force to do most of these things (not
lighting of course), and the force of the blade cutting through the wood is a large percentage of the watts consumed. Yes, there is always a heat load, but it¡¯s not anywhere close to 100% of consumed power¡. even here in AZ where it will be 111? later this
week.
I think perhaps the issue then is the usual workload of a typical shop. Although in an it system things are, I imagine, a bit more stable in terms of draw and power use,
that is not the case for most shops not in a factory environment. We tend to turn on and off equipment and not be steadily throwing plank after plank in rapid succession thorough a saw at max force leading to an actual nameplate type draw. Whereas computer
fans are typically more blunt force objects running at max 100% of the time to account for a potentially catastrophic consequence of failing to control heat in a limited space and the consequences of those failures. And so, I may allow for a total heat release
into your shop for the sake of argument, but even then, the draw is variable and subsequently the heat release. If the OP is concerned about utilizing a motor and dealing with the heat for 100% utilization, he is probably 1) not using the right equipment as
Felder doesn¡¯t spec the duty as 100%, and 2) in the wrong forum and needs to be talking to factory owners.
But in more real world situations, we don¡¯t use 100% draw even when we are using machines most of the time, turn them off between runs, have leaks under a doors, windows
to radiate out, poor insulation to not contain heat or cold, and a myriad of other issues. Sure, running motors will increase heat but it¡¯s not a 1:1 in any of our shops, and especially not at nameplate levels.
I think you just said mostly what I did ¨C that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.?
8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat may
not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it¡¯s put into the room, no if¡¯s, and¡¯s, or but¡¯s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater.
Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg ¨C the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it
is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there
is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that¡¯s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution.
RE designing HVAC based on electrical load ¨C yes, this is exactly how it¡¯s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it¡¯s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing
equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ??
Small spaces like workshops ¨C small closed systems ¨C will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability.
I agree it¡¯s complicated, and I¡¯m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I¡¯m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff ¨C the reason I joined the group ¨C happens when the complexity
is welcomed.??
No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop. Within
systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely in the
electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy is released
slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much about sizing
hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it.
Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop.
A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting,
sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood.
It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of heat
in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true.
I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct.
¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡±
Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat.
?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander running.
That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran machines
all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
?
|
TJ,? the limiter heads? heads are similar to brazed tooling in regards to antikick back as the clearance is still about 1mm. Being that the body of brazed tooling is the limiter. These would be considered safer than a standard american corrugated head where the knife may stick out a whole 1.5" greater than the diameter of the head. They do not feel or look safe for hand feeding at all.
?Having a couple common profiles, like a round over that you can drop in easy on the shaper is key to fast consistent work. About the same amount of time as mounting a router bit. I also like the frued for a cheap profiles that you may only need to use once in a while.? The 3/4 dual? round over/cove cutter I thought was a good value.?
There are a few different grades of carbide. Frued claims to use a C3 which is considered good. Most any profile head with corrugated knives even with limiters can have carbide knives. It's much more expensive than HSS so you probably wont see them in kits. It's generally 150~200% more for carbide knives over HSS. HSS is when you only need a few hundred feet with exceptional finish in hardwood, Or 1200 to 1500 feet in soft wood (without knots). Carbide will do about 2500~3000 linear feet in medium hardwoods. HSS might only do 20 feet in some tropical hardwoods. So in teak Carbide is way more economical than HSS. But in softer woods HSS might out perform as the finish quality in say alaskan cedar is quite exception compared to carbide finishes in the same species.
?Carbide insert are expensive but you get alot of work out of them. But in the long term I suppose an investment in to a "system" that uses the higher grades of carbide might be the most economical in the long run, but with much more investment up front. i.e. rangate tooling
|
I do not have a full combo but I thought I read that you can use the PF on saw (requires long horizontal tube), shaper and jointer. True if not, the fliptop bracket with gas strut assist is the best option. You do not need to compromise on the type of PF you can get.
For my KF, I have never felt PF was in the way, other than operating shaper crank. Need the extension to push the crank wheel out to avoid busting knuckles against the PF bracket. If you need to walk behind the machine from rear (PF mount side) you will need to step over the horizontal tube. I do not need to do this very often.
I do not have extended chassis nor an outfeed table (just use cast iron ext table). If you have these it might be further tucked away. All this based upon 2002 KF so there might be some differences.
Imran
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On May 26, 2020, at 12:26 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote: ?
I appreciate that datapoint.
?
The Felder website has no information on this. Is the ¡°F38¡± the Comatic AF38
and is the ¡°F32¡± the Comatic AF32
? If I can live without variable speed, for light duty work would a ? HP feeder like the AF32 be adequate? The attractiveness of the mag base is I can position the
feeder for the saw and the shaper, and maybe even the jointer. The flip mount only works for the shaper, and I don¡¯t think I will use the feeder often enough to justify the giant thing hanging off the back of the machine 99% of the time having to walk around
it and bump into it.
?
Having just mounted the long arm and a f38 power feeder back onto the saw... if they make a magnetic base... wow, it¡¯s gotta be special, because this thing is heavy.
Heavy heavy like moving it on and off of anything seems like a quick trip to tossing your back out.
Did I mention it¡¯s heavy? ?If the DC40 (which I¡¯m looking at upgrading to) is heavier... yeah.. you prolly need to bolt it to something and maybe get a friend to help install it.
?
Sent from a device with less than stellar autocorrect
On May 26, 2020, at 11:02 AM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
?
Thanks for that perspective ¨C I really appreciate it.
?
My current situation is I have a 52¡± SawStop table saw A3/31, and a Bridgeport in my 22 x 32 shop, not counting work benches and other smaller tools. I also have ¡°the corner of junk¡± where my kids have their workbenches and bits of things
they take apart. Last summer I added a 4 x 8 CNC router which has drastically changed how I work with sheet goods and has made my giant SawStop an albatross, not to mention taking up a lot of floor space.? Right now I have no band saw of any consequence (will
be a Felder FB510 someday) and would really like to have a drum sander, both which will help facilitate the kind of work I want to do on the CNC router. In order to make space for those, something has to go, which for me is separates for the table saw and
jointer/planer.
?
I hope to make furniture occasionally, but I¡¯m not really a cabinet shop. One thing I do is antique clock restorations, and that¡¯s all one-off stuff where almost everything is a changeover all the time anyway even on separate tools, so
I¡¯m hoping occasional changeover time isn¡¯t a huge deal. Since I¡¯m working with relatively small pieces (breaking down sheet goods on the CNC router) I¡¯m hoping I can use the jointer/planer side pretty independently of the saw side of the CF531. The shaper
is less familiar to me.
?
As another cf owner- keep as many separates as you can. If I had my way, I¡¯d have separates versus the combo. Moving stuff around to reconfigure, even as great as the engineering is, it¡¯s still not as easy as turning off the power, walking
a few feet and resuming on a different operation by turning on a switch. A nightmare to me is blowing up a board and not having a spare when doing shaper milling. Means I have to tear down shaper, set up jointer, then tear that down, set up planer, tear that
down and then set up saw, then reset shaper. It can take an hour with all the setup and about 7 min of processing time for that one board. I have a separate router table I keep around and a miter saw but have to navigate the rest on the cf. I don¡¯t often use
the router table but when I do it can be very handy. It is not a substitute for a shaper. I happen to use it most for quick one offs and have the cnc fence and lift that allows quick setup without a lot of jigs.?
Get ready to reassess your workflow :) When you have it setup well you can do pretty well and get increased speed and quality in your processing with powerfeeds etc that would otherwise require a large workspace.?
I had the high speed router spindle and used it for bits - mostly edging and did not have any problem with it.? I may be mistaken but I think it was 15000 RPM
?
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 11:29 AM TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
Waste of money because it won¡¯t work or is just sub-optimal?
?
I¡¯m aware of the challenge of the relatively slow RPM of the shaper compared to a router table. I don¡¯t have the shop space luxury of being able to have 25 dedicated stations nor the finances (particularly after ordering the CF531), which
is where compromises come in. Is there something else I¡¯m missing?
?
¡°I have ordered the ¡°high speed spindle¡± for my CF531 which will let me use my existing 1/2¡± router bits as a backup. I was originally thinking that might be money poorly spent considering the slow speed of the shaper compared to a router,
but maybe with the cost of shaper tooling I will use it more than I originally thought.
Thanks for all of the advice. I welcome any corrections/chastisement/reproof, etc.¡°
Common poor conclusion it¡¯s a shaper not a router table! Waste of good money ,,rebate block , groover to start
?
martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell
Designing and building for 47 years
?
On May 26, 2020, at 9:44 AM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
?
Thank you for the book recommendation ¨C I ordered it.
?
I¡¯m told I need a power feeder if I want to keep all my fingers. The Comatic DC40 seems to be the right place to start ¨C the older geared systems seem like they are significantly more limited compared to the modern variable speed ones.
I¡¯m thinking of instead of mounting the power feeder on the side of the machine, getting one of these magnetic bases:
?
?
?
That way I can use the feeder on the saw as well. Otherwise I would have to get the extra long arm for the power feeder.
?
Any thoughts on that? They claim 2000lbs of holding force from the base. I¡¯m familiar with Magswitches in other industries and they are the real deal.
?
If you are new to shaping in general, I¡¯d suggest a book read. It goes through all the background info I am sure you would find interesting including knife materials and differences, safety, and how to do cuts. I wish I had this book when
I got my shaper. Spindle moulder handbook. Also, Rangate made quite a few videos with Joe Calhoun on their tooling which might give you some ideas, and Greg Godbout is a great resource. The tooling is top notch in cost and quality but some of the more basic
things like insert hss are available affordably. But as you need is a great way to go. Most cutters are available pretty quickly when the demand manifests. If you think you will need a lot of custom profiles, on doors for instance, you definitely should consider
insert knives for that like what Rangate has. ?
Thanks for all of the thoughts.? We¡¯ve covered a lot of ground so I¡¯ll summarize what I think you¡¯ve all said:
For whatever reason, it¡¯s not a normal thing to have a 40mm interchangeable block that covers all of the meat and potatoes like standard 1/4¡± 3/8¡± and 1/2¡± roundover, cove, and ogees in a pre-packaged set.
Felder sells a roundover kit separate from the interchangeable block, but it costs 8 billion dollars (my editorial - I¡¯m still falling over a bit on the cost of all of this compared to a $19 Freud roundover bit)
Interchangeable heads are good and if possible get the chip limiter version, though in looking around, that seems to limit choices, too. Most interchangeable heads use HSS knives?
There are tools like this:??that may be a better bet for the basic stuff and are carbide instead of the HSS knives that interchangeable
blocks come with.? They don¡¯t have chip limiters though. Is that a big concern?
Custom grinding is interesting to me, but not something I¡¯ll be doing anytime soon; I¡¯m just looking to move away from my cruddy router table to the spindle in my forthcoming CF531. For my very short projects where I may need something
custom I can make it on my CNC router. As a hobbyist I have more time than money and can wait 1/2 hour for the router to cut the 4¡¯ of trim I need rather than spending time and money on custom knives.
I still think it¡¯s strange in the era of cheap CNC grinding that there isn¡¯t an obvious insert tooling option that gives the advantages of carbide and cost savings with the use of the interchangeable head for basic things. I know I could
get custom-ground CNC profiles in HSS or carbide, but I¡¯ve spent a couple hours on Amana, CMT, Freud, and other suppliers and there doesn¡¯t seem to be easy to find normal stuff. Maybe it¡¯s there; ALL of the websites I¡¯ve tried are terrible - Amana, Tools Today,
CMT, etc. Freud¡¯s was passable in that there were at least a few graphics showing multiple bit drawings and corresponding part numbers. The rest are a mishmash of poorly sorted drawings, many with no measurements given. Amana¡¯s site is truly awful for the
insert knives - you almost have to just start clicking on random numbers.
I have ordered the ¡°high speed spindle¡± for my CF531 which will let me use my existing 1/2¡± router bits as a backup. I was originally thinking that might be money poorly spent considering the slow speed of the shaper compared to a router,
but maybe with the cost of shaper tooling I will use it more than I originally thought.
Thanks for all of the advice. I welcome any corrections/chastisement/reproof, etc.
?I agree. ? Prospectively buying shaper tooling before you have need for the specific cutter is a quick way to the poor house.? Wait till you know what you need.
?
?
?
?
?I honestly would wait to buy until there is a need.
The multi profile kits are fine I suppose, but for a simple round over, ogee, or anything you just want to mount for a quick cut is no longer a quick cut if you have to set knives. You'll probably just use your router, that's fine, but a shaper will make a
much better cut requiring much less if any secondary processing,i.e. sanding.
?I like disposable carbide insert tooling most always, because they don't need to get sent out to sharpen and they put out about 3000 linear feet before dulling in medium hardwoods.
That said, these cutter heads a a bit pricey and are usually single or similar in profile.
I like a brazed cutter(round over, ogee, and such) for the profiles that are used often. Easy to swap out and you will forget you own a router. You can buy brazed tooling on ebay for? cheap and just get them sharpened. And can buy bushings to use heads that
do not match your spindle. I have a 50mm vari-angle? I picked up for $150 and use with bushings on a 1.25" spindle.
if I ever have the need and the $ at the same time I would buy a multi use cutter from Rangate about $1400 .
You should get a corrugated head or three. again you can usually find these on ebay, but since this will be an old friend eventually I spent the $ an bought a nice 3" from Shmidt to start.
It was worth it . I do have a 4" and 6" as well but bought as needed. Titan from Global Tooling in WA is fine to use and cheap when you need to make a quick 6" face cut.
With "slugs"? and "blanks"you can use a 1" knives in a 4"x4" head. Stay with larger diameters as they produce better finishes. Dual angle heads are a plus too, soft and hardwoods.
Daily use cheads for me are usually groovers and rebate heads,or discs sometimes called. It's nice to have these in the same diameter because you can stack two 12mm to make a 24mm or a 12mm with an adjustable groover for a wider range of cuts, two groovers
with spacer in between become a tenon cutting set-up, or three groovers makes double tenons that I use often.
I buy cheap Toolstoday heads for cuts that are not dependant on profile accuracy. Like a rebate for a back panel on a cabinet.
They are quite fine most any day and very affordable. BUT I find that the outer cut diamter between two 180mm groovers may vary .002" That may be well within spec for better companies, I dont know. Also in the Amana rebate head the kknive may not be exactly
parralel to one another so in theory you are producing a crowned face. Again this is extremely small and unoticable except if maybe you widthed two edges for glue up you might see a? larger glue line. I am anal about fitting and dont get much humbug from the
amana most days.
I get my custom profiles from Weinig , I was using a couple other places but had some folks burn the edges and it ruins the temper so..... Weinig is high quality and usually ships out in 48 hours or less. But probably plenty of good places to order knives.
?
?
--
|
I have a DC40 and an older 3 wheel comatic (1HP) feeder that are heavy with respect to the feeder and its stand.. I would estimate around 125lbs per feeder with stand.? My DC40 is connected to my KF700 via a piston assist swing lift which works very well.?? Make sure you include the stand weight too. ?? ? Regards, ? Chris Perren 512-415-6951 ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of TJ Cornish Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 11:27 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [FOG] Getting started in shaper tooling #shapertools ? I appreciate that datapoint. ? The Felder website has no information on this. Is the ¡°F38¡± the Comatic AF38 and is the ¡°F32¡± the Comatic AF32 ? If I can live without variable speed, for light duty work would a ? HP feeder like the AF32 be adequate? The attractiveness of the mag base is I can position the feeder for the saw and the shaper, and maybe even the jointer. The flip mount only works for the shaper, and I don¡¯t think I will use the feeder often enough to justify the giant thing hanging off the back of the machine 99% of the time having to walk around it and bump into it. ? Having just mounted the long arm and a f38 power feeder back onto the saw... if they make a magnetic base... wow, it¡¯s gotta be special, because this thing is heavy. Heavy heavy like moving it on and off of anything seems like a quick trip to tossing your back out. Did I mention it¡¯s heavy? ?If the DC40 (which I¡¯m looking at upgrading to) is heavier... yeah.. you prolly need to bolt it to something and maybe get a friend to help install it. ? Sent from a device with less than stellar autocorrect ? On May 26, 2020, at 11:02 AM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
? Thanks for that perspective ¨C I really appreciate it. ? My current situation is I have a 52¡± SawStop table saw A3/31, and a Bridgeport in my 22 x 32 shop, not counting work benches and other smaller tools. I also have ¡°the corner of junk¡± where my kids have their workbenches and bits of things they take apart. Last summer I added a 4 x 8 CNC router which has drastically changed how I work with sheet goods and has made my giant SawStop an albatross, not to mention taking up a lot of floor space.? Right now I have no band saw of any consequence (will be a Felder FB510 someday) and would really like to have a drum sander, both which will help facilitate the kind of work I want to do on the CNC router. In order to make space for those, something has to go, which for me is separates for the table saw and jointer/planer. ? I hope to make furniture occasionally, but I¡¯m not really a cabinet shop. One thing I do is antique clock restorations, and that¡¯s all one-off stuff where almost everything is a changeover all the time anyway even on separate tools, so I¡¯m hoping occasional changeover time isn¡¯t a huge deal. Since I¡¯m working with relatively small pieces (breaking down sheet goods on the CNC router) I¡¯m hoping I can use the jointer/planer side pretty independently of the saw side of the CF531. The shaper is less familiar to me. ? As another cf owner- keep as many separates as you can. If I had my way, I¡¯d have separates versus the combo. Moving stuff around to reconfigure, even as great as the engineering is, it¡¯s still not as easy as turning off the power, walking a few feet and resuming on a different operation by turning on a switch. A nightmare to me is blowing up a board and not having a spare when doing shaper milling. Means I have to tear down shaper, set up jointer, then tear that down, set up planer, tear that down and then set up saw, then reset shaper. It can take an hour with all the setup and about 7 min of processing time for that one board. I have a separate router table I keep around and a miter saw but have to navigate the rest on the cf. I don¡¯t often use the router table but when I do it can be very handy. It is not a substitute for a shaper. I happen to use it most for quick one offs and have the cnc fence and lift that allows quick setup without a lot of jigs.? Get ready to reassess your workflow :) When you have it setup well you can do pretty well and get increased speed and quality in your processing with powerfeeds etc that would otherwise require a large workspace.?
I had the high speed router spindle and used it for bits - mostly edging and did not have any problem with it.? I may be mistaken but I think it was 15000 RPM ? On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 11:29 AM TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote: Waste of money because it won¡¯t work or is just sub-optimal? ? I¡¯m aware of the challenge of the relatively slow RPM of the shaper compared to a router table. I don¡¯t have the shop space luxury of being able to have 25 dedicated stations nor the finances (particularly after ordering the CF531), which is where compromises come in. Is there something else I¡¯m missing? ? ¡°I have ordered the ¡°high speed spindle¡± for my CF531 which will let me use my existing 1/2¡± router bits as a backup. I was originally thinking that might be money poorly spent considering the slow speed of the shaper compared to a router, but maybe with the cost of shaper tooling I will use it more than I originally thought. Thanks for all of the advice. I welcome any corrections/chastisement/reproof, etc.¡° Common poor conclusion it¡¯s a shaper not a router table! Waste of good money ,,rebate block , groover to start ? martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell Designing and building for 47 years ? On May 26, 2020, at 9:44 AM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
? Thank you for the book recommendation ¨C I ordered it. ? I¡¯m told I need a power feeder if I want to keep all my fingers. The Comatic DC40 seems to be the right place to start ¨C the older geared systems seem like they are significantly more limited compared to the modern variable speed ones. I¡¯m thinking of instead of mounting the power feeder on the side of the machine, getting one of these magnetic bases: ? ? ? That way I can use the feeder on the saw as well. Otherwise I would have to get the extra long arm for the power feeder. ? Any thoughts on that? They claim 2000lbs of holding force from the base. I¡¯m familiar with Magswitches in other industries and they are the real deal. ? If you are new to shaping in general, I¡¯d suggest a book read. It goes through all the background info I am sure you would find interesting including knife materials and differences, safety, and how to do cuts. I wish I had this book when I got my shaper. Spindle moulder handbook. Also, Rangate made quite a few videos with Joe Calhoun on their tooling which might give you some ideas, and Greg Godbout is a great resource. The tooling is top notch in cost and quality but some of the more basic things like insert hss are available affordably. But as you need is a great way to go. Most cutters are available pretty quickly when the demand manifests. If you think you will need a lot of custom profiles, on doors for instance, you definitely should consider insert knives for that like what Rangate has. ?
Thanks for all of the thoughts.? We¡¯ve covered a lot of ground so I¡¯ll summarize what I think you¡¯ve all said: For whatever reason, it¡¯s not a normal thing to have a 40mm interchangeable block that covers all of the meat and potatoes like standard 1/4¡± 3/8¡± and 1/2¡± roundover, cove, and ogees in a pre-packaged set. Felder sells a roundover kit separate from the interchangeable block, but it costs 8 billion dollars (my editorial - I¡¯m still falling over a bit on the cost of all of this compared to a $19 Freud roundover bit) Interchangeable heads are good and if possible get the chip limiter version, though in looking around, that seems to limit choices, too. Most interchangeable heads use HSS knives? There are tools like this:??that may be a better bet for the basic stuff and are carbide instead of the HSS knives that interchangeable blocks come with.? They don¡¯t have chip limiters though. Is that a big concern? Custom grinding is interesting to me, but not something I¡¯ll be doing anytime soon; I¡¯m just looking to move away from my cruddy router table to the spindle in my forthcoming CF531. For my very short projects where I may need something custom I can make it on my CNC router. As a hobbyist I have more time than money and can wait 1/2 hour for the router to cut the 4¡¯ of trim I need rather than spending time and money on custom knives. I still think it¡¯s strange in the era of cheap CNC grinding that there isn¡¯t an obvious insert tooling option that gives the advantages of carbide and cost savings with the use of the interchangeable head for basic things. I know I could get custom-ground CNC profiles in HSS or carbide, but I¡¯ve spent a couple hours on Amana, CMT, Freud, and other suppliers and there doesn¡¯t seem to be easy to find normal stuff. Maybe it¡¯s there; ALL of the websites I¡¯ve tried are terrible - Amana, Tools Today, CMT, etc. Freud¡¯s was passable in that there were at least a few graphics showing multiple bit drawings and corresponding part numbers. The rest are a mishmash of poorly sorted drawings, many with no measurements given. Amana¡¯s site is truly awful for the insert knives - you almost have to just start clicking on random numbers. I have ordered the ¡°high speed spindle¡± for my CF531 which will let me use my existing 1/2¡± router bits as a backup. I was originally thinking that might be money poorly spent considering the slow speed of the shaper compared to a router, but maybe with the cost of shaper tooling I will use it more than I originally thought. Thanks for all of the advice. I welcome any corrections/chastisement/reproof, etc. ?I agree. ? Prospectively buying shaper tooling before you have need for the specific cutter is a quick way to the poor house.? Wait till you know what you need. ? ? ? ? ?I honestly would wait to buy until there is a need.
The multi profile kits are fine I suppose, but for a simple round over, ogee, or anything you just want to mount for a quick cut is no longer a quick cut if you have to set knives. You'll probably just use your router, that's fine, but a shaper will make a much better cut requiring much less if any secondary processing,i.e. sanding.
?I like disposable carbide insert tooling most always, because they don't need to get sent out to sharpen and they put out about 3000 linear feet before dulling in medium hardwoods.
That said, these cutter heads a a bit pricey and are usually single or similar in profile.
I like a brazed cutter(round over, ogee, and such) for the profiles that are used often. Easy to swap out and you will forget you own a router. You can buy brazed tooling on ebay for? cheap and just get them sharpened. And can buy bushings to use heads that do not match your spindle. I have a 50mm vari-angle? I picked up for $150 and use with bushings on a 1.25" spindle.
if I ever have the need and the $ at the same time I would buy a multi use cutter from Rangate about $1400 .
You should get a corrugated head or three. again you can usually find these on ebay, but since this will be an old friend eventually I spent the $ an bought a nice 3" from Shmidt to start.
It was worth it . I do have a 4" and 6" as well but bought as needed. Titan from Global Tooling in WA is fine to use and cheap when you need to make a quick 6" face cut.
With "slugs"? and "blanks"you can use a 1" knives in a 4"x4" head. Stay with larger diameters as they produce better finishes. Dual angle heads are a plus too, soft and hardwoods.
Daily use cheads for me are usually groovers and rebate heads,or discs sometimes called. It's nice to have these in the same diameter because you can stack two 12mm to make a 24mm or a 12mm with an adjustable groover for a wider range of cuts, two groovers with spacer in between become a tenon cutting set-up, or three groovers makes double tenons that I use often.
I buy cheap Toolstoday heads for cuts that are not dependant on profile accuracy. Like a rebate for a back panel on a cabinet.
They are quite fine most any day and very affordable. BUT I find that the outer cut diamter between two 180mm groovers may vary .002" That may be well within spec for better companies, I dont know. Also in the Amana rebate head the kknive may not be exactly parralel to one another so in theory you are producing a crowned face. Again this is extremely small and unoticable except if maybe you widthed two edges for glue up you might see a? larger glue line. I am anal about fitting and dont get much humbug from the amana most days.
I get my custom profiles from Weinig , I was using a couple other places but had some folks burn the edges and it ruins the temper so..... Weinig is high quality and usually ships out in 48 hours or less. But probably plenty of good places to order knives.
?
?
--
|
I appreciate that datapoint.
?
The Felder website has no information on this. Is the ¡°F38¡± the Comatic AF38
and is the ¡°F32¡± the Comatic AF32
? If I can live without variable speed, for light duty work would a ? HP feeder like the AF32 be adequate? The attractiveness of the mag base is I can position the
feeder for the saw and the shaper, and maybe even the jointer. The flip mount only works for the shaper, and I don¡¯t think I will use the feeder often enough to justify the giant thing hanging off the back of the machine 99% of the time having to walk around
it and bump into it.
?
Having just mounted the long arm and a f38 power feeder back onto the saw... if they make a magnetic base... wow, it¡¯s gotta be special, because this thing is heavy.
Heavy heavy like moving it on and off of anything seems like a quick trip to tossing your back out.
Did I mention it¡¯s heavy? ?If the DC40 (which I¡¯m looking at upgrading to) is heavier... yeah.. you prolly need to bolt it to something and maybe get a friend to help install it.
?
Sent from a device with less than stellar autocorrect
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 26, 2020, at 11:02 AM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
?
Thanks for that perspective ¨C I really appreciate it.
?
My current situation is I have a 52¡± SawStop table saw A3/31, and a Bridgeport in my 22 x 32 shop, not counting work benches and other smaller tools. I also have ¡°the corner of junk¡± where my kids have their workbenches and bits of things
they take apart. Last summer I added a 4 x 8 CNC router which has drastically changed how I work with sheet goods and has made my giant SawStop an albatross, not to mention taking up a lot of floor space.? Right now I have no band saw of any consequence (will
be a Felder FB510 someday) and would really like to have a drum sander, both which will help facilitate the kind of work I want to do on the CNC router. In order to make space for those, something has to go, which for me is separates for the table saw and
jointer/planer.
?
I hope to make furniture occasionally, but I¡¯m not really a cabinet shop. One thing I do is antique clock restorations, and that¡¯s all one-off stuff where almost everything is a changeover all the time anyway even on separate tools, so
I¡¯m hoping occasional changeover time isn¡¯t a huge deal. Since I¡¯m working with relatively small pieces (breaking down sheet goods on the CNC router) I¡¯m hoping I can use the jointer/planer side pretty independently of the saw side of the CF531. The shaper
is less familiar to me.
?
As another cf owner- keep as many separates as you can. If I had my way, I¡¯d have separates versus the combo. Moving stuff around to reconfigure, even as great as the engineering is, it¡¯s still not as easy as turning off the power, walking
a few feet and resuming on a different operation by turning on a switch. A nightmare to me is blowing up a board and not having a spare when doing shaper milling. Means I have to tear down shaper, set up jointer, then tear that down, set up planer, tear that
down and then set up saw, then reset shaper. It can take an hour with all the setup and about 7 min of processing time for that one board. I have a separate router table I keep around and a miter saw but have to navigate the rest on the cf. I don¡¯t often use
the router table but when I do it can be very handy. It is not a substitute for a shaper. I happen to use it most for quick one offs and have the cnc fence and lift that allows quick setup without a lot of jigs.?
Get ready to reassess your workflow :) When you have it setup well you can do pretty well and get increased speed and quality in your processing with powerfeeds etc that would otherwise require a large workspace.?
I had the high speed router spindle and used it for bits - mostly edging and did not have any problem with it.? I may be mistaken but I think it was 15000 RPM
?
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 11:29 AM TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
Waste of money because it won¡¯t work or is just sub-optimal?
?
I¡¯m aware of the challenge of the relatively slow RPM of the shaper compared to a router table. I don¡¯t have the shop space luxury of being able to have 25 dedicated stations nor the finances (particularly after ordering the CF531), which
is where compromises come in. Is there something else I¡¯m missing?
?
¡°I have ordered the ¡°high speed spindle¡± for my CF531 which will let me use my existing 1/2¡± router bits as a backup. I was originally thinking that might be money poorly spent considering the slow speed of the shaper compared to a router,
but maybe with the cost of shaper tooling I will use it more than I originally thought.
Thanks for all of the advice. I welcome any corrections/chastisement/reproof, etc.¡°
Common poor conclusion it¡¯s a shaper not a router table! Waste of good money ,,rebate block , groover to start
?
martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell
Designing and building for 47 years
?
On May 26, 2020, at 9:44 AM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
?
Thank you for the book recommendation ¨C I ordered it.
?
I¡¯m told I need a power feeder if I want to keep all my fingers. The Comatic DC40 seems to be the right place to start ¨C the older geared systems seem like they are significantly more limited compared to the modern variable speed ones.
I¡¯m thinking of instead of mounting the power feeder on the side of the machine, getting one of these magnetic bases:
?
?
?
That way I can use the feeder on the saw as well. Otherwise I would have to get the extra long arm for the power feeder.
?
Any thoughts on that? They claim 2000lbs of holding force from the base. I¡¯m familiar with Magswitches in other industries and they are the real deal.
?
If you are new to shaping in general, I¡¯d suggest a book read. It goes through all the background info I am sure you would find interesting including knife materials and differences, safety, and how to do cuts. I wish I had this book when
I got my shaper. Spindle moulder handbook. Also, Rangate made quite a few videos with Joe Calhoun on their tooling which might give you some ideas, and Greg Godbout is a great resource. The tooling is top notch in cost and quality but some of the more basic
things like insert hss are available affordably. But as you need is a great way to go. Most cutters are available pretty quickly when the demand manifests. If you think you will need a lot of custom profiles, on doors for instance, you definitely should consider
insert knives for that like what Rangate has. ?
Thanks for all of the thoughts.? We¡¯ve covered a lot of ground so I¡¯ll summarize what I think you¡¯ve all said:
For whatever reason, it¡¯s not a normal thing to have a 40mm interchangeable block that covers all of the meat and potatoes like standard 1/4¡± 3/8¡± and 1/2¡± roundover, cove, and ogees in a pre-packaged set.
Felder sells a roundover kit separate from the interchangeable block, but it costs 8 billion dollars (my editorial - I¡¯m still falling over a bit on the cost of all of this compared to a $19 Freud roundover bit)
Interchangeable heads are good and if possible get the chip limiter version, though in looking around, that seems to limit choices, too. Most interchangeable heads use HSS knives?
There are tools like this:??that may be a better bet for the basic stuff and are carbide instead of the HSS knives that interchangeable
blocks come with.? They don¡¯t have chip limiters though. Is that a big concern?
Custom grinding is interesting to me, but not something I¡¯ll be doing anytime soon; I¡¯m just looking to move away from my cruddy router table to the spindle in my forthcoming CF531. For my very short projects where I may need something
custom I can make it on my CNC router. As a hobbyist I have more time than money and can wait 1/2 hour for the router to cut the 4¡¯ of trim I need rather than spending time and money on custom knives.
I still think it¡¯s strange in the era of cheap CNC grinding that there isn¡¯t an obvious insert tooling option that gives the advantages of carbide and cost savings with the use of the interchangeable head for basic things. I know I could
get custom-ground CNC profiles in HSS or carbide, but I¡¯ve spent a couple hours on Amana, CMT, Freud, and other suppliers and there doesn¡¯t seem to be easy to find normal stuff. Maybe it¡¯s there; ALL of the websites I¡¯ve tried are terrible - Amana, Tools Today,
CMT, etc. Freud¡¯s was passable in that there were at least a few graphics showing multiple bit drawings and corresponding part numbers. The rest are a mishmash of poorly sorted drawings, many with no measurements given. Amana¡¯s site is truly awful for the
insert knives - you almost have to just start clicking on random numbers.
I have ordered the ¡°high speed spindle¡± for my CF531 which will let me use my existing 1/2¡± router bits as a backup. I was originally thinking that might be money poorly spent considering the slow speed of the shaper compared to a router,
but maybe with the cost of shaper tooling I will use it more than I originally thought.
Thanks for all of the advice. I welcome any corrections/chastisement/reproof, etc.
?I agree. ? Prospectively buying shaper tooling before you have need for the specific cutter is a quick way to the poor house.? Wait till you know what you need.
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?I honestly would wait to buy until there is a need.
The multi profile kits are fine I suppose, but for a simple round over, ogee, or anything you just want to mount for a quick cut is no longer a quick cut if you have to set knives. You'll probably just use your router, that's fine, but a shaper will make a
much better cut requiring much less if any secondary processing,i.e. sanding.
?I like disposable carbide insert tooling most always, because they don't need to get sent out to sharpen and they put out about 3000 linear feet before dulling in medium hardwoods.
That said, these cutter heads a a bit pricey and are usually single or similar in profile.
I like a brazed cutter(round over, ogee, and such) for the profiles that are used often. Easy to swap out and you will forget you own a router. You can buy brazed tooling on ebay for? cheap and just get them sharpened. And can buy bushings to use heads that
do not match your spindle. I have a 50mm vari-angle? I picked up for $150 and use with bushings on a 1.25" spindle.
if I ever have the need and the $ at the same time I would buy a multi use cutter from Rangate about $1400 .
You should get a corrugated head or three. again you can usually find these on ebay, but since this will be an old friend eventually I spent the $ an bought a nice 3" from Shmidt to start.
It was worth it . I do have a 4" and 6" as well but bought as needed. Titan from Global Tooling in WA is fine to use and cheap when you need to make a quick 6" face cut.
With "slugs"? and "blanks"you can use a 1" knives in a 4"x4" head. Stay with larger diameters as they produce better finishes. Dual angle heads are a plus too, soft and hardwoods.
Daily use cheads for me are usually groovers and rebate heads,or discs sometimes called. It's nice to have these in the same diameter because you can stack two 12mm to make a 24mm or a 12mm with an adjustable groover for a wider range of cuts, two groovers
with spacer in between become a tenon cutting set-up, or three groovers makes double tenons that I use often.
I buy cheap Toolstoday heads for cuts that are not dependant on profile accuracy. Like a rebate for a back panel on a cabinet.
They are quite fine most any day and very affordable. BUT I find that the outer cut diamter between two 180mm groovers may vary .002" That may be well within spec for better companies, I dont know. Also in the Amana rebate head the kknive may not be exactly
parralel to one another so in theory you are producing a crowned face. Again this is extremely small and unoticable except if maybe you widthed two edges for glue up you might see a? larger glue line. I am anal about fitting and dont get much humbug from the
amana most days.
I get my custom profiles from Weinig , I was using a couple other places but had some folks burn the edges and it ruins the temper so..... Weinig is high quality and usually ships out in 48 hours or less. But probably plenty of good places to order knives.
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
For a circular saw cutting maybe5 minutes an hour, yes. For continuous duty use of things like dust collectors, vacuum hold down tables, and CNC equipment running multi-hour jobs it can get real hot real fast.?
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And practically speaking, most of this has very little to do with calculating a simple answer for heat gain in your workshop.
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Michael Tagge via groups.io <mike.j.tagge@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 11:07:23 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [FOG] Building a closet for dust collector
Maybe it¡¯s better to think of work and heat as both being kinetic energy. ¡°Work¡± is potential energy converted to mechanical energy which is kinetic and potential energy into the system. This potential energy can be stepwise converted down
the line to heat as the final result or other work along the way. And the road goes on until heat equilibrium or all particles in the system are moving at the same speed so no transfers can occur and all potential is exhausted. Universally, this is the theoretical
¡°heat death¡± although that¡¯s a topic to explore on your own.
Brian, the point is doing the work creates heat too.? Take a milling machine.? The motor has inefficiency, heat. The motor moves things in the mill, some friction some more heat.? Then the cutter removes metal, more heat. The coolant
cools the metal warming the coolant. 100% of the energy in ends up as either potential energy like raising a hoist, or heat. With lighting the energy either turns into light which shines on objects and heats them or it is wasted in the LED driver etc.
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You all are missing the point that a lot of the hp/watts is actually consumed doing the ¡°work¡±, whether it¡¯s sawing the wood, jointing, planing, sanding, lighting or even compressing air. It takes force to do most of these things (not
lighting of course), and the force of the blade cutting through the wood is a large percentage of the watts consumed. Yes, there is always a heat load, but it¡¯s not anywhere close to 100% of consumed power¡. even here in AZ where it will be 111? later this
week.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
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You all are missing the point that a lot of the hp/watts is actually consumed doing the ¡°work¡±, whether it¡¯s sawing the wood, jointing, planing, sanding, lighting or even compressing air. It takes force to do most of these things (not
lighting of course), and the force of the blade cutting through the wood is a large percentage of the watts consumed. Yes, there is always a heat load, but it¡¯s not anywhere close to 100% of consumed power¡. even here in AZ where it will be 111? later this
week.
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I think perhaps the issue then is the usual workload of a typical shop. Although in an it system things are, I imagine, a bit more stable in terms of draw and power use, that is not
the case for most shops not in a factory environment. We tend to turn on and off equipment and not be steadily throwing plank after plank in rapid succession thorough a saw at max force leading to an actual nameplate type draw. Whereas computer fans are typically
more blunt force objects running at max 100% of the time to account for a potentially catastrophic consequence of failing to control heat in a limited space and the consequences of those failures. And so, I may allow for a total heat release into your shop
for the sake of argument, but even then, the draw is variable and subsequently the heat release. If the OP is concerned about utilizing a motor and dealing with the heat for 100% utilization, he is probably 1) not using the right equipment as Felder doesn¡¯t
spec the duty as 100%, and 2) in the wrong forum and needs to be talking to factory owners.
But in more real world situations, we don¡¯t use 100% draw even when we are using machines most of the time, turn them off between runs, have leaks under a doors, windows to radiate
out, poor insulation to not contain heat or cold, and a myriad of other issues. Sure, running motors will increase heat but it¡¯s not a 1:1 in any of our shops, and especially not at nameplate levels.
I think you just said mostly what I did ¨C that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.?
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8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat
may not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it¡¯s put into the room, no if¡¯s, and¡¯s, or but¡¯s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater.
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Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg ¨C the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it
is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there
is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that¡¯s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution.
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RE designing HVAC based on electrical load ¨C yes, this is exactly how it¡¯s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it¡¯s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing
equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ??
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Small spaces like workshops ¨C small closed systems ¨C will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability.
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I agree it¡¯s complicated, and I¡¯m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I¡¯m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff ¨C the reason I joined the group ¨C happens when the complexity
is welcomed.??
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No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop.
Within systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely
in the electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy
is released slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much
about sizing hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it.
Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop.
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A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting,
sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood.
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It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of
heat in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true.
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I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct.
¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡±
Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat.
?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander
running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran
machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
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Joe Jensen
Jason Holtz
David P. Best
imran