Try waxing the table surface first.
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On May 22, 2020, at 6:59 PM, johnjgram via < johnjgram@...> wrote:
When are you use the thickness planer the rowers seem to be turning but when I put the word in there I can Them it doesn¡¯t feed the wood I have to push like hell and then pull it out penny Any thoughts
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
No, not all energy to do the work is converted to heat. For example, your saw idles at say 1hp, a heavy cut is consuming 3hp, that¡¯s a 2hp or 1500W increase. Picture a 1500W heater, which efficiently converts all it¡¯s watts to heat, do you really think you pumped out 1500W of heat into the shop taking a cut with the saw? No, you might have gotten 100W of heat in the cut, but everything else was consumed doing the actual work.
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Brian,
That is where I started. At least 80% of the energy is consumed in doing work otherwise it is a pretty inefficient setup. But these guys have convinced me that the energy used to do the work is also released as thermal energy in the environment. I have never thought of this before. It makes sense to me.
Imran? On May 23, 2020, at 10:36 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: ? You all are missing the point that a lot of the hp/watts is actually consumed doing the ¡°work¡±, whether it¡¯s sawing the wood, jointing, planing, sanding, lighting or even compressing air. It takes force to do most of these things (not lighting of course), and the force of the blade cutting through the wood is a large percentage of the watts consumed. Yes, there is always a heat load, but it¡¯s not anywhere close to 100% of consumed power¡. even here in AZ where it will be 111? later this week.
I think perhaps the issue then is the usual workload of a typical shop. Although in an it system things are, I imagine, a bit more stable in terms of draw and power use, that is not the case for most shops not in a factory environment. We tend to turn on and off equipment and not be steadily throwing plank after plank in rapid succession thorough a saw at max force leading to an actual nameplate type draw. Whereas computer fans are typically more blunt force objects running at max 100% of the time to account for a potentially catastrophic consequence of failing to control heat in a limited space and the consequences of those failures. And so, I may allow for a total heat release into your shop for the sake of argument, but even then, the draw is variable and subsequently the heat release. If the OP is concerned about utilizing a motor and dealing with the heat for 100% utilization, he is probably 1) not using the right equipment as Felder doesn¡¯t spec the duty as 100%, and 2) in the wrong forum and needs to be talking to factory owners.
But in more real world situations, we don¡¯t use 100% draw even when we are using machines most of the time, turn them off between runs, have leaks under a doors, windows to radiate out, poor insulation to not contain heat or cold, and a myriad of other issues. Sure, running motors will increase heat but it¡¯s not a 1:1 in any of our shops, and especially not at nameplate levels.
Get?
I think you just said mostly what I did ¨C that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.? ? 8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat may not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it¡¯s put into the room, no if¡¯s, and¡¯s, or but¡¯s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater. ? Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg ¨C the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that¡¯s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution. ? RE designing HVAC based on electrical load ¨C yes, this is exactly how it¡¯s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it¡¯s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ?? ? Small spaces like workshops ¨C small closed systems ¨C will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability. ? I agree it¡¯s complicated, and I¡¯m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I¡¯m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff ¨C the reason I joined the group ¨C happens when the complexity is welcomed.?? ? No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop. Within systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely in the electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy is released slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much about sizing hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it. Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop. ? A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting, sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood. ? It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of heat in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true. ? I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct. ¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡± Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat. ?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
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The holes for the bearings are through holes, correct?
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The holes I reamed, I reamed to a slight hair below 26mm..the ID hole on the bearing is 10mm..I used a 10mm bolt to secure everything together
On Saturday, May 23, 2020, 06:38:41 AM PDT, imranindiana via < imranindiana@...> wrote:
Randy,
I guess the nut at bottom is smaller than the ID of the bearing. I have only seen smaller reamers and the nut or the threaded rod is close to the size of the reamer OD. Just was curious how you achieved flat bottom.
Imran ?
Thanks Imran.. the reamer I used was an adjustable reamer.. works exactly like you described.. I had to adjust it 4 or 5 times till the desired size was achieved..
On Saturday, May 23, 2020, 05:49:53 AM PDT, imranindiana via < imranindiana@...> wrote:
Randy,
Well done. Looks great. What kind of reamer did you use? Ones I have seen work for thru holes with adjusting nut on the bottom.
Imran ?
I will say, the seating of the bearing in the aluminum took a little time.? I used 4" wide x 6" long x 5/16" thick 6061 aluminum plates.? I put some green masking tape on both plates and used CA glue to glue the 2 plates together so they would not move.? I used a 15/16" drill bit ( bearings are 26mm in dia.) and drilled the holes on both ends of the plates,? Took a chisel and separated the plates after all the holes were drilled and then used an adjustable reamer to ream open the holes drilled for the bearings until the holes were just right and pressed the bearings in..The are seated very tightly and will not budge.? This is what prevents the sag of the arms when assembled?
On Friday, May 22, 2020, 09:53:15 PM PDT, joelgelman via < joelgelman@...> wrote:
For the mid-section of what I hope will be the super-easy-and-inexpensive-to-make-in-your-shop version, I made a quick demo of the plan for the pivot mechanism (gear will be used but omitted at this time). ?In picture 1, you see a 2 inch Forstner bit being used to drill partially through one of the pieces. ?The center indentation can be a guide for the drilling of the smaller hole in the middle for the bolt. ?Another way to insure a dead center hole is to clamp the workpiece, and change bits without moving the wood. ?Figure 2 shows a nice fit of the 2 inch OD angled thrust bearing. ?After the hole is bored (figure 3), a hole is bored in the other piece of wood, and with washers, and a nut and bolt, the units are assembled. ?For those who do not want to deal with seating bearings in aluminum, this bearing method may work well. ?I just need to make sure there will be adequate strength in the wood.?
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
Mark,
Thanks for the explanation. You are right, I just chose simple words. Law of conservation of energy is something learned early but this last bit I never realized or if I was taught/told did not comprehend or forgot. I am happy to be aware of this now.
Imran
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On May 23, 2020, at 10:44 AM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote: ?Imran, I think perhaps it's more intuitive when you realize that it's not actually "thermal loss".? It's not quite right to say that it's "loss", and likewise not right to say that this is "not true if some of the energy to do work is stored temporarily".? Energy is not neither lost nor stored, it's just moved around.??
Loss is just a concept relative to a some chosen boundary (the "closed system") and relative to your objectives for the energy.? ? If the boundary is the motor, and the goal is cutting wood, one can say that all the the energy pumped into the motor/cutting that doesn't result in cut wood is "lost", such as the friction that heats up the bearings.? ?But suppose that in addition to a saw blade, there's also a generator attached to the motor and it's charging a battery. The energy going into battery is just as "lost" from the motor/cutting system as is the bearing friction heat.? But neither is a loss, it's just movement, resulting in the energy being "stored" somewhere else.? ?Some of the energy is moved to (stored in) the battery, and some of the energy is moved to (stored in) the motor housing and air.?
With respect to physics,? it's not that one is "lost" and the other is "stored".
When you expand the system boundary -- eg, to the shop -- it's the same.? ?As Glen noted, when running his equipment, some of the energy pumped into his shop resulted in cut wood and some of it resulted in (desirable) warming of the shop air.? The energy that heated his shop wasn't lost, it was moved into the air, and is still inside the system boundary (his shop).? But if he had a heat pump hooked up to his equipment and the motor heat was pumped outside his shop, he'd say the energy was "lost" because it's now moved outside his boundary of concern.? But maybe the heat pump dumps the energy outside where it warms someone's tush.? That person won't say the energy is lost, they'll say they're getting a free tush warming!
Here's a silly non-energy metaphor of system boundary and loss and storage.? If I drop a $20 bill on the street, I might say I lost $20.? It's indeed "lost" with respect to the system boundary of my finances.? ?But my neighbor who finds it and "stores" it in their pocket doesn't see it was a loss.? And at the boundary of "neighborhood finances", there is no net change, just money moving around.
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
Imran, I think perhaps it's more intuitive when you realize that it's not actually "thermal loss".? It's not quite right to say that it's "loss", and likewise not right to say that this is "not true if some of the energy to do work is stored temporarily".? Energy is not neither lost nor stored, it's just moved around.??
Loss is just a concept relative to a some chosen boundary (the "closed system") and relative to your objectives for the energy.? ? If the boundary is the motor, and the goal is cutting wood, one can say that all the the energy pumped into the motor/cutting that doesn't result in cut wood is "lost", such as the friction that heats up the bearings.? ?But suppose that in addition to a saw blade, there's also a generator attached to the motor and it's charging a battery. The energy going into battery is just as "lost" from the motor/cutting system as is the bearing friction heat.? But neither is a loss, it's just movement, resulting in the energy being "stored" somewhere else.? ?Some of the energy is moved to (stored in) the battery, and some of the energy is moved to (stored in) the motor housing and air.?
With respect to physics,? it's not that one is "lost" and the other is "stored".
When you expand the system boundary -- eg, to the shop -- it's the same.? ?As Glen noted, when running his equipment, some of the energy pumped into his shop resulted in cut wood and some of it resulted in (desirable) warming of the shop air.? The energy that heated his shop wasn't lost, it was moved into the air, and is still inside the system boundary (his shop).? But if he had a heat pump hooked up to his equipment and the motor heat was pumped outside his shop, he'd say the energy was "lost" because it's now moved outside his boundary of concern.? But maybe the heat pump dumps the energy outside where it warms someone's tush.? That person won't say the energy is lost, they'll say they're getting a free tush warming!
Here's a silly non-energy metaphor of system boundary and loss and storage.? If I drop a $20 bill on the street, I might say I lost $20.? It's indeed "lost" with respect to the system boundary of my finances.? ?But my neighbor who finds it and "stores" it in their pocket doesn't see it was a loss.? And at the boundary of "neighborhood finances", there is no net change, just money moving around.
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
Brian,
That is where I started. At least 80% of the energy is consumed in doing work otherwise it is a pretty inefficient setup. But these guys have convinced me that the energy used to do the work is also released as thermal energy in the environment. I have never thought of this before. It makes sense to me.
Imran?
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On May 23, 2020, at 10:36 AM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote: ? You all are missing the point that a lot of the hp/watts is actually consumed doing the ¡°work¡±, whether it¡¯s sawing the wood, jointing, planing, sanding, lighting or even compressing air. It takes force to do most of these things (not lighting of course), and the force of the blade cutting through the wood is a large percentage of the watts consumed. Yes, there is always a heat load, but it¡¯s not anywhere close to 100% of consumed power¡. even here in AZ where it will be 111? later this week.
I think perhaps the issue then is the usual workload of a typical shop. Although in an it system things are, I imagine, a bit more stable in terms of draw and power use, that is not the case for most shops not in a factory environment. We tend to turn on and off equipment and not be steadily throwing plank after plank in rapid succession thorough a saw at max force leading to an actual nameplate type draw. Whereas computer fans are typically more blunt force objects running at max 100% of the time to account for a potentially catastrophic consequence of failing to control heat in a limited space and the consequences of those failures. And so, I may allow for a total heat release into your shop for the sake of argument, but even then, the draw is variable and subsequently the heat release. If the OP is concerned about utilizing a motor and dealing with the heat for 100% utilization, he is probably 1) not using the right equipment as Felder doesn¡¯t spec the duty as 100%, and 2) in the wrong forum and needs to be talking to factory owners.
But in more real world situations, we don¡¯t use 100% draw even when we are using machines most of the time, turn them off between runs, have leaks under a doors, windows to radiate out, poor insulation to not contain heat or cold, and a myriad of other issues. Sure, running motors will increase heat but it¡¯s not a 1:1 in any of our shops, and especially not at nameplate levels.
Get?
I think you just said mostly what I did ¨C that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.? ? 8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat may not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it¡¯s put into the room, no if¡¯s, and¡¯s, or but¡¯s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater. ? Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg ¨C the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that¡¯s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution. ? RE designing HVAC based on electrical load ¨C yes, this is exactly how it¡¯s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it¡¯s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ?? ? Small spaces like workshops ¨C small closed systems ¨C will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability. ? I agree it¡¯s complicated, and I¡¯m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I¡¯m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff ¨C the reason I joined the group ¨C happens when the complexity is welcomed.?? ? No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop. Within systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely in the electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy is released slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much about sizing hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it. Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop. ? A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting, sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood. ? It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of heat in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true. ? I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct. ¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡± Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat. ?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
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Joel,
Is there going to be that much space between the two pieces or is thus where the gears go?
Randy¡¯s version has gears on one side only, if your version is similar than is there enough depth in wood to get two pieces of wood closer?
I am guessing that if the two pieces of wood are abutted, with UHMW tape between, that should increase rigidity.?
Imran?
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On May 23, 2020, at 12:53 AM, joelgelman via groups.io <joelgelman@...> wrote: ?For the mid-section of what I hope will be the super-easy-and-inexpensive-to-make-in-your-shop version, I made a quick demo of the plan for the pivot mechanism (gear will be used but omitted at this time). ?In picture 1, you see a 2 inch Forstner bit being used to drill partially through one of the pieces. ?The center indentation can be a guide for the drilling of the smaller hole in the middle for the bolt. ?Another way to insure a dead center hole is to clamp the workpiece, and change bits without moving the wood. ?Figure 2 shows a nice fit of the 2 inch OD angled thrust bearing. ?After the hole is bored (figure 3), a hole is bored in the other piece of wood, and with washers, and a nut and bolt, the units are assembled. ?For those who do not want to deal with seating bearings in aluminum, this bearing method may work well. ?I just need to make sure there will be adequate strength in the wood.?
<1.JPG> <2.JPG> <3.jpg> <4.jpg>
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
You all are missing the point that a lot of the hp/watts is actually consumed doing the ¡°work¡±, whether it¡¯s sawing the wood, jointing, planing, sanding, lighting or even compressing air. It takes force to do most of these things (not lighting of course), and the force of the blade cutting through the wood is a large percentage of the watts consumed. Yes, there is always a heat load, but it¡¯s not anywhere close to 100% of consumed power¡. even here in AZ where it will be 111? later this week.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I think perhaps the issue then is the usual workload of a typical shop. Although in an it system things are, I imagine, a bit more stable in terms of draw and power use, that is not the case for most shops not in a factory environment. We tend to turn on and off equipment and not be steadily throwing plank after plank in rapid succession thorough a saw at max force leading to an actual nameplate type draw. Whereas computer fans are typically more blunt force objects running at max 100% of the time to account for a potentially catastrophic consequence of failing to control heat in a limited space and the consequences of those failures. And so, I may allow for a total heat release into your shop for the sake of argument, but even then, the draw is variable and subsequently the heat release. If the OP is concerned about utilizing a motor and dealing with the heat for 100% utilization, he is probably 1) not using the right equipment as Felder doesn¡¯t spec the duty as 100%, and 2) in the wrong forum and needs to be talking to factory owners.
But in more real world situations, we don¡¯t use 100% draw even when we are using machines most of the time, turn them off between runs, have leaks under a doors, windows to radiate out, poor insulation to not contain heat or cold, and a myriad of other issues. Sure, running motors will increase heat but it¡¯s not a 1:1 in any of our shops, and especially not at nameplate levels.
Get?
I think you just said mostly what I did ¨C that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.? ? 8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat may not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it¡¯s put into the room, no if¡¯s, and¡¯s, or but¡¯s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater. ? Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg ¨C the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that¡¯s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution. ? RE designing HVAC based on electrical load ¨C yes, this is exactly how it¡¯s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it¡¯s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ?? ? Small spaces like workshops ¨C small closed systems ¨C will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability. ? I agree it¡¯s complicated, and I¡¯m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I¡¯m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff ¨C the reason I joined the group ¨C happens when the complexity is welcomed.?? ? No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop. Within systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely in the electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy is released slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much about sizing hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it. Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop. ? A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting, sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood. ? It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of heat in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true. ? I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct. ¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡± Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat. ?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
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The holes I reamed, I reamed to a slight hair below 26mm..the ID hole on the bearing is 10mm..I used a 10mm bolt to secure everything together
On Saturday, May 23, 2020, 06:38:41 AM PDT, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Randy,
I guess the nut at bottom is smaller than the ID of the bearing. I have only seen smaller reamers and the nut or the threaded rod is close to the size of the reamer OD. Just was curious how you achieved flat bottom.
Imran
On May 23, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Randy Child via groups.io <strongman_one@...> wrote: ?
Thanks Imran.. the reamer I used was an adjustable reamer.. works exactly like you described.. I had to adjust it 4 or 5 times till the desired size was achieved..
On Saturday, May 23, 2020, 05:49:53 AM PDT, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Randy,
Well done. Looks great. What kind of reamer did you use? Ones I have seen work for thru holes with adjusting nut on the bottom.
Imran
On May 23, 2020, at 8:34 AM, Randy Child via groups.io <strongman_one@...> wrote:
?
I will say, the seating of the bearing in the aluminum took a little time.? I used 4" wide x 6" long x 5/16" thick 6061 aluminum plates.? I put some green masking tape on both plates and used CA glue to glue the 2 plates together so they would not move.? I used a 15/16" drill bit ( bearings are 26mm in dia.) and drilled the holes on both ends of the plates,? Took a chisel and separated the plates after all the holes were drilled and then used an adjustable reamer to ream open the holes drilled for the bearings until the holes were just right and pressed the bearings in..The are seated very tightly and will not budge.? This is what prevents the sag of the arms when assembled?
On Friday, May 22, 2020, 09:53:15 PM PDT, joelgelman via groups.io <joelgelman@...> wrote:
For the mid-section of what I hope will be the super-easy-and-inexpensive-to-make-in-your-shop version, I made a quick demo of the plan for the pivot mechanism (gear will be used but omitted at this time). ?In picture 1, you see a 2 inch Forstner bit being used to drill partially through one of the pieces. ?The center indentation can be a guide for the drilling of the smaller hole in the middle for the bolt. ?Another way to insure a dead center hole is to clamp the workpiece, and change bits without moving the wood. ?Figure 2 shows a nice fit of the 2 inch OD angled thrust bearing. ?After the hole is bored (figure 3), a hole is bored in the other piece of wood, and with washers, and a nut and bolt, the units are assembled. ?For those who do not want to deal with seating bearings in aluminum, this bearing method may work well. ?I just need to make sure there will be adequate strength in the wood.?
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Randy,
I guess the nut at bottom is smaller than the ID of the bearing. I have only seen smaller reamers and the nut or the threaded rod is close to the size of the reamer OD. Just was curious how you achieved flat bottom.
Imran
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On May 23, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Randy Child via groups.io <strongman_one@...> wrote: ?
Thanks Imran.. the reamer I used was an adjustable reamer.. works exactly like you described.. I had to adjust it 4 or 5 times till the desired size was achieved..
On Saturday, May 23, 2020, 05:49:53 AM PDT, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Randy,
Well done. Looks great. What kind of reamer did you use? Ones I have seen work for thru holes with adjusting nut on the bottom.
Imran
On May 23, 2020, at 8:34 AM, Randy Child via groups.io <strongman_one@...> wrote:
?
I will say, the seating of the bearing in the aluminum took a little time.? I used 4" wide x 6" long x 5/16" thick 6061 aluminum plates.? I put some green masking tape on both plates and used CA glue to glue the 2 plates together so they would not move.? I used a 15/16" drill bit ( bearings are 26mm in dia.) and drilled the holes on both ends of the plates,? Took a chisel and separated the plates after all the holes were drilled and then used an adjustable reamer to ream open the holes drilled for the bearings until the holes were just right and pressed the bearings in..The are seated very tightly and will not budge.? This is what prevents the sag of the arms when assembled?
On Friday, May 22, 2020, 09:53:15 PM PDT, joelgelman via groups.io <joelgelman@...> wrote:
For the mid-section of what I hope will be the super-easy-and-inexpensive-to-make-in-your-shop version, I made a quick demo of the plan for the pivot mechanism (gear will be used but omitted at this time). ?In picture 1, you see a 2 inch Forstner bit being used to drill partially through one of the pieces. ?The center indentation can be a guide for the drilling of the smaller hole in the middle for the bolt. ?Another way to insure a dead center hole is to clamp the workpiece, and change bits without moving the wood. ?Figure 2 shows a nice fit of the 2 inch OD angled thrust bearing. ?After the hole is bored (figure 3), a hole is bored in the other piece of wood, and with washers, and a nut and bolt, the units are assembled. ?For those who do not want to deal with seating bearings in aluminum, this bearing method may work well. ?I just need to make sure there will be adequate strength in the wood.?
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Thanks Imran.. the reamer I used was an adjustable reamer.. works exactly like you described.. I had to adjust it 4 or 5 times till the desired size was achieved..
On Saturday, May 23, 2020, 05:49:53 AM PDT, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Randy,
Well done. Looks great. What kind of reamer did you use? Ones I have seen work for thru holes with adjusting nut on the bottom.
Imran
On May 23, 2020, at 8:34 AM, Randy Child via groups.io <strongman_one@...> wrote: ?
I will say, the seating of the bearing in the aluminum took a little time.? I used 4" wide x 6" long x 5/16" thick 6061 aluminum plates.? I put some green masking tape on both plates and used CA glue to glue the 2 plates together so they would not move.? I used a 15/16" drill bit ( bearings are 26mm in dia.) and drilled the holes on both ends of the plates,? Took a chisel and separated the plates after all the holes were drilled and then used an adjustable reamer to ream open the holes drilled for the bearings until the holes were just right and pressed the bearings in..The are seated very tightly and will not budge.? This is what prevents the sag of the arms when assembled?
On Friday, May 22, 2020, 09:53:15 PM PDT, joelgelman via groups.io <joelgelman@...> wrote:
For the mid-section of what I hope will be the super-easy-and-inexpensive-to-make-in-your-shop version, I made a quick demo of the plan for the pivot mechanism (gear will be used but omitted at this time). ?In picture 1, you see a 2 inch Forstner bit being used to drill partially through one of the pieces. ?The center indentation can be a guide for the drilling of the smaller hole in the middle for the bolt. ?Another way to insure a dead center hole is to clamp the workpiece, and change bits without moving the wood. ?Figure 2 shows a nice fit of the 2 inch OD angled thrust bearing. ?After the hole is bored (figure 3), a hole is bored in the other piece of wood, and with washers, and a nut and bolt, the units are assembled. ?For those who do not want to deal with seating bearings in aluminum, this bearing method may work well. ?I just need to make sure there will be adequate strength in the wood.?
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
Michael, Joe, Mark and TJ,
Thanks for the education. I have really not thought about this before and it is not intuitive to equate 100% of the energy, consumed to do mechanical work, to thermal loss in environment. This as we discussed is not true if some of the energy to do work is stored temporarily.
Good stuff.
Imran?
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On May 22, 2020, at 11:19 PM, Michael Tagge <mike.j.tagge@...> wrote: ? Imran ¨C ? That¡¯s more akin to a heat sink- It messes with the temporality of the heat into the system, ie stores it and decays. A wood shop equivalent is the sawdust and the specific heat of cast iron / steel that dissipate heat over an extended period of time. Great for IT heat management strategies to allow for short term overclocking and increased heat generation. ? In a pump, the conversion is into potential energy actually, and there is the analogue. Its not converted to heat but to potential which then can be utilized at a different time in its path to heat equilibration. ? So the real crux is how to actually measure heat generation. On a theoretical level, all energy into a system is the energy out of the system. But the systems are leaky, time delayed, and fluctuant in real world situations is my point. So yes, thermodynamics hold true but you have to measure further than anyone wants to really go, or maybe they do, and in which case, that¡¯s cool too ¨C I¡¯m really fond of getting into arguments over details. ? ? ? I am intrigued by this conversation. In a data center I follow that energy is turning into heat. But in case of a motor I am not convinced. Imagine a well pump. There is energy stored in the water that has been lifted. So per the law of conservation of energy not all energy got converted into heat.
On May 22, 2020, at 10:34 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
? I think you just said mostly what I did ¨C that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.? ? 8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat may not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it¡¯s put into the room, no if¡¯s, and¡¯s, or but¡¯s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater. ? Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg ¨C the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that¡¯s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution. ? RE designing HVAC based on electrical load ¨C yes, this is exactly how it¡¯s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it¡¯s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ?? ? Small spaces like workshops ¨C small closed systems ¨C will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability. ? I agree it¡¯s complicated, and I¡¯m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I¡¯m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff ¨C the reason I joined the group ¨C happens when the complexity is welcomed. ? ? No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it¡¯s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop. Within systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely in the electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy is released slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don¡¯t know much about sizing hvac but I don¡¯t think this is the way to do it. Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I¡¯m waiting for my finish to dry.
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop. ? A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat ¨C electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor ¨C the cutting, sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat ¨C if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood. ? It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn¡¯t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of heat in your room as a result of the motor running. It¡¯s counter-intuitive, but it¡¯s true. ? I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct. ¡°?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.¡± Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat. ?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
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Randy,
Well done. Looks great. What kind of reamer did you use? Ones I have seen work for thru holes with adjusting nut on the bottom.
Imran
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On May 23, 2020, at 8:34 AM, Randy Child via groups.io <strongman_one@...> wrote: ?
I will say, the seating of the bearing in the aluminum took a little time.? I used 4" wide x 6" long x 5/16" thick 6061 aluminum plates.? I put some green masking tape on both plates and used CA glue to glue the 2 plates together so they would not move.? I used a 15/16" drill bit ( bearings are 26mm in dia.) and drilled the holes on both ends of the plates,? Took a chisel and separated the plates after all the holes were drilled and then used an adjustable reamer to ream open the holes drilled for the bearings until the holes were just right and pressed the bearings in..The are seated very tightly and will not budge.? This is what prevents the sag of the arms when assembled?
On Friday, May 22, 2020, 09:53:15 PM PDT, joelgelman via groups.io <joelgelman@...> wrote:
For the mid-section of what I hope will be the super-easy-and-inexpensive-to-make-in-your-shop version, I made a quick demo of the plan for the pivot mechanism (gear will be used but omitted at this time). ?In picture 1, you see a 2 inch Forstner bit being used to drill partially through one of the pieces. ?The center indentation can be a guide for the drilling of the smaller hole in the middle for the bolt. ?Another way to insure a dead center hole is to clamp the workpiece, and change bits without moving the wood. ?Figure 2 shows a nice fit of the 2 inch OD angled thrust bearing. ?After the hole is bored (figure 3), a hole is bored in the other piece of wood, and with washers, and a nut and bolt, the units are assembled. ?For those who do not want to deal with seating bearings in aluminum, this bearing method may work well. ?I just need to make sure there will be adequate strength in the wood.?
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I will say, the seating of the bearing in the aluminum took a little time.? I used 4" wide x 6" long x 5/16" thick 6061 aluminum plates.? I put some green masking tape on both plates and used CA glue to glue the 2 plates together so they would not move.? I used a 15/16" drill bit ( bearings are 26mm in dia.) and drilled the holes on both ends of the plates,? Took a chisel and separated the plates after all the holes were drilled and then used an adjustable reamer to ream open the holes drilled for the bearings until the holes were just right and pressed the bearings in..The are seated very tightly and will not budge.? This is what prevents the sag of the arms when assembled?
On Friday, May 22, 2020, 09:53:15 PM PDT, joelgelman via groups.io <joelgelman@...> wrote:
For the mid-section of what I hope will be the super-easy-and-inexpensive-to-make-in-your-shop version, I made a quick demo of the plan for the pivot mechanism (gear will be used but omitted at this time). ?In picture 1, you see a 2 inch Forstner bit being used to drill partially through one of the pieces. ?The center indentation can be a guide for the drilling of the smaller hole in the middle for the bolt. ?Another way to insure a dead center hole is to clamp the workpiece, and change bits without moving the wood. ?Figure 2 shows a nice fit of the 2 inch OD angled thrust bearing. ?After the hole is bored (figure 3), a hole is bored in the other piece of wood, and with washers, and a nut and bolt, the units are assembled. ?For those who do not want to deal with seating bearings in aluminum, this bearing method may work well. ?I just need to make sure there will be adequate strength in the wood.?
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On Friday, May 22, 2020, 07:43:32 PM PDT, Glen Christensen <grchris1966@...> wrote:
Randy, That is a very impressive build, It looks very well thought out and assembled. Where I don't see the need for one in my situation, When you list the build, and parts I might just give it a try and do it for fun Again well done. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 4:07 PM Randy Child via <strongman_one= [email protected]> wrote: As some of you know, Joel Gelman and I have been attempting to make an articulate boom arm.? After some trial and error (with more emphasis on error), I think I finally got the boom arm the way it's suppose to be.? I still have more to do with it, like hook the hoses onto it at the joint, but all in all, it turned out exactly the way I'd had hoped..
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For me and the boom arm shown, its 107" long, extended..it hangs directly in the middle of my assembly table.? This boom arm Joel and I are doing, anyone can be make it to whatever length they need.? It's all about how long you make the arms whether they be longer or shorter.
On Friday, May 22, 2020, 06:04:43 PM PDT, jmkserv@... <jmkserv@...> wrote:
What was your final? boom arm extended length?
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 7:07 PM Randy Child via <strongman_one= [email protected]> wrote: As some of you know, Joel Gelman and I have been attempting to make an articulate boom arm.? After some trial and error (with more emphasis on error), I think I finally got the boom arm the way it's suppose to be.? I still have more to do with it, like hook the hoses onto it at the joint, but all in all, it turned out exactly the way I'd had hoped..
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
Designing and building for 47 years
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On May 22, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Sang Luu <sangluu@...> wrote:
?Joe - I did a similar project recently for my 650 sq. ft. shop, so had to move the cyclone outside of the space. I built an enclosure, attached to the outside wall of the workshop, encased in Roxul insulation. The noise from the cyclone motor is barely noticeable outside the shop, but as TJ noted the return air back into the shop produces a lot of noise. I opted to relocate the filter inside the shop to not lose conditioned air, so it was a trade off.?
If you can some how build a baffle with sound dampening material around the filter too, I think that would help reduce the noise further.
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Is it possible you¡¯re not taking a big enough cut?
Bill Belanger?
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 22:15 Dennis Hegyi < dhegyi@...> wrote: John,
There is a ¡°friction wheel¡±, a wheel driven by friction via a rubber tire on its rim which drives the rollers.? If the rollers are not operating at full force since you say you need to push in the wood, it could be that the tire is worn.? The tire is relatively inexpensive and depending on your planer is not difficult to replace.
Dennis Hegyi On May 22, 2020, at 6:59 PM, johnjgram via < johnjgram@...> wrote:
When are you use the thickness planer the rowers seem to be turning but when I put the word in there I can Them it doesn¡¯t feed the wood I have to push like hell and then pull it out penny Any thoughts
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John,
There is a ¡°friction wheel¡±, a wheel driven by friction via a rubber tire on its rim which drives the rollers. ?If the rollers are not operating at full force since you say you need to push in the wood, it could be that the tire is worn. ?The tire is relatively inexpensive and depending on your planer is not difficult to replace.
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On May 22, 2020, at 6:59 PM, johnjgram via < johnjgram@...> wrote:
When are you use the thickness planer the rowers seem to be turning but when I put the word in there I can Them it doesn¡¯t feed the wood I have to push like hell and then pull it out penny Any thoughts
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Re: Building a closet for dust collector
Joe, you need to look at the exhaust cost itself. Assume you're exhausting 1200cfm (pulling in 1200 cfm of 110¡ã air), and you want to cool this to 70¡ã (40¡ã delta T)? ? The standard equation HVAC engineers use is the "sensible?heat" equation:
BTU/hr = 1.08 x cfm x (Ti - To)
This works out to 51,840 btu/hr you need to cool the air exchanged by your DC.? Divided by 3412 and you get ~17kW/hr.
That means it costs you ~$2.50/hr to exhaust to the outside.? That doesn't seem like "definitely a problem:"? ? If you do that 2 hours a day, say 100 days a year, over 5 years you've spent $2,500.? ?How much will you spend on a closet?? ?Probably that much if you value your labor at anything.?
Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander running. That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran machines all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
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imran
Bill Belanger