Just as a reminder, the IWF 2000 will be held in Atlanta on the 24th to
27th of August. You can register online at www.iwf2000.com I just
registered and also made a hotel reservation. there are not many rooms
left downtown near the Center. The closest top quality hotel near the
Center that has rooms left is the Ritz Carlton. This is where the
Felder sales team has reservations. :)
Hope to see a lot of you at the IWF in Atlanta this year.

John Renzetti
Chadds Ford, PA

Approximately three years prior to purchasing my KF-7X (which I took
delivery of in early 1999), I visited a Robland dealer in Silver Spring,
Md. This is close to where I live in Clifton, Va. I visited on three
occasions and on two of them spent about 3.5 hours each just fiddling
with the machine, running it, and generally getting accustomed to its
operation. After that, I decided not to buy one.

My decision was based largely on the X-31's engineering:

1. It did not run smoothly. Even with no load on the machine, the saw
table vibrated noticeably. This was unacceptable for a machine of this
type.

2. There was play in the sliding table. I can't remember whether it was
lateral or vertical.

3. The sliding table required floor support.

4. The main table was not flat and the extensions seemed not to mate
correctly.

5. I can't remember the capacity of the motors, but I do remember that I
felt that they were not large enough.

6. The table didn't seem to be designed with accessories in mind.

In addition, I felt that the dealer support wasn't strong enough. I
never got far enough to decide if the factory support was adequate.

I may have had other concerns which I have since forgotten. However,
these were enough to convince me that I would not be happy with the
purchase.

I hope that you will take this as my 'personal' opinion only. It's based
solely on my needs, some of which are admittedly eccentric. Thus, it may
not apply to others or to their situations. However, satisfying those
needs as well as the more obvious engineering needs was a part of my
overall goal. Felder has done both, so my marriage to Felder has been a
good one, one that I've not yet regretted.

TGee

"Dennis L. Jacob" wrote:

Good Morning:

As I read the comments about the Felder, and the experiences with the
X31, I now , more clearly, understand the comments about the
characteristics of the Felder machines. Not only is there quality in
the machine, so you will find in the customers Felder has developed.
As some of you have read, I am in the process of deciding which options
I want, on which machine. As John mentioned in one of his emails, the
specification process takes the longest time, to get it right.

I don't own a machine, yet, but like many of you have experienced with
other manufacturers the support falls short of the mark if compared to
the Felder line. I requested information several weeks ago on both the
Knapp and the Altendorf. Several years ago I attended a show in which
all three companies had their machines displayed. I spent several
hours looking at the X31, I even kept the factory reps there after the
normal show was over and asked if we could assemble, and disassemble
the machine. Every option, and every attachment was put on and taken
off, the bottom line was, (first they were pissed because I did not buy
the machine, even after special discounts to take it home) the
engineering and quality were not there. To change from one operation
to the next, and then back, I had little or no confidence the machine
was still true.

John, thanks again for the introduction to this site. Several have
made comments about the sales approach the Felder guys have, no
pressure. It's obvious why, the Felder owners sell the machines and
are the agressors.

Rick Strom

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Wow, what an interesting discussion with many excellent insights. I will
elaborate a bit on the more vague points from my original message. If it
wasn't clear in my first message - I've never owned an X31, but did take a
used one for a spin one rainy afternoon. Prior to that, I had been wanting
one for about two years and did a lot of research including corresponding
with present/past owners. When we talk about the pros/cons of anything, it
should be understood that it is usually in a subjective context - my
priorities are no doubt different than yours.

Paul Jordan wrote:

The following need further explanation in order to be fair:
----------------------------------------------------------------

+ More elegant sliding table rail system - does not need floor

support for full travel

The 10-year-old machine I "took for a spin" had a steel support leg to be
used with the sliding table rails. Other than that, I really liked the X31
slider until I looked at the Felders, which I feel is a "more elegant"
design.

A few points: the Felder rail system seems shorter and less in the way than
that of the X31. The way the Felder table cantilevers all the way forward
and back is amazing - it looks like magic. The spring-loaded end bumpers are
another nice touch, along with the locking mechanism.

The X31 had simple cotter pins for end bumpers and no supplied mechanism to
secure the sliding table. If the rails got in your way, you would unclamp
and slide them forward or back. It is a fine sliding table for its design,
however.

+ Excellent dust collection all around [a couple non-owners have

mentioned this, but the X31 dc points are fair to pretty good]

Of the owners I corresponded with, less-than-optimal dust collection was a
more common complaint. On the machine I looked at, the saw cabinet was full
of shavings, and the jointer would leave piles of shavings on the planer
table - and this was with the Robland 3HP dust collector connected via flex
hose. There was no dust collection for the mortiser.

I'm a stickler for good dust pickup, and the Felder really impressed me with
the thorough attention to this aspect for all functions, including the
mortiser.

+ Table extensions [available on the X31]

At the time I was looking, the only table extension available was a small
one for use with the shaper portion. It could not be used on other parts of
the machine, such as for the jointer, planer, or saw tables. I much
preferred the versatility and variety of the Felder extension systems.

+ Better safety devices [??? - the X31 is fine in this regard]

Indeed, the X31 is fine, safety-wise. However, I feel the Felder offers even
more in this department, such as the safety-interlock system to prevent
starting in certain unsafe configurations, safety-bars for the shaper fence,
etc. I also prefer the convenience of the "Euro-guard" for the Felder
jointer, and the clear crown guard for the saw.

+ Start and stop buttons at each working position [X31 has more

than enough stop buttons, don't need more start buttons]

My personal preference is for start and stop buttons at each station. It is
more convenient, and another level of safety as the machine will only let
you start the motor for the mode you selected.

+ Straight table edge for rip fence rail [??? - the X31 rip fence

worked fine - but I had the old style]

This is a comment on the offset jointer table of the X31 requiring two rip
fences. The new rip fence addresses this concern, but also introduces its
own quirks. Yes, it works fine, but I found the straight table edge of the
Felder a much better solution, and it works quite well.

+ Disposable planer knives [I installed the Esta on the Robland

for $231 and about 2 hours work, but you can now order them that
way]

At the time I was looking at the X31, it was still up in the air as to what
system they were going to go with and how much extra it would cost... the
salesman told me only a high-production shop really needs disposable blades
and that as a hobbyist, standard blades would be more appropriate for me
(hmm). The used machine I looked at had standard blades. Retrofitting the
Esta system sounded good, but drilling and tapping the expensive cutter head
sounded a little daunting to me. The Felders come standard with disposable
blades.

+ Latching tow bar for moving the machine [same as X31]

Correct me if I'm wrong. The tow-bar on the X31 doesn't latch, it
over-centers. After I saw the Felder design, I immediately liked the idea of
its positive foot-operated latch mechanism. It offers a more secure
connection, and you can move the bar up and down as needed without dropping
the machine. It's one of the many small details that add up to a lot more
money, but also convinced me to go with the Felder.

+ Optional outrigger can be removed when not needed [don't know

about the LX31 outrigger]

Dave's post cleared that up. I assume the X31 cannot be retrofitted with the
LX31 outrigger, whereas with the Felder this can be added later.

All in all I feel the X31 is a fine machine for the dollars, but the
Felder/Hammers are in a different class in terms of fit and finish.

Agreed, although the Hammers offer some pretty attractive competition now.
After looking at the one machine, I went away feeling it would be an OK
compromise, but was a little disappointed with the machining and design
details compared to other tools I already owned. I did almost buy the
machine, and I probably would have been happy with it for awhile. However,
being a perfectionist with a mind for details it would have only been a
matter of time before the itch to upgrade reared its head.

..Geoff

Ooops - correction... my feelings of disappointment and compromise related
to the X31, not the Hammer line, which I have not seen in person yet.

..Geoff

Just logged on to this site and read with great interest all the
comments to Geoff's question. I was glad to hear (or rather read) that
I have in fact made the right decision in purchasing a Felder BF 6-31.
Although the machine was used and I'm still finessing with all the
settings, I have to say the support of both the Felder USA "TEAM" and
Felder Austria have reaffirmed my belief that after-market service is
what this company is about.
During the set-up process, I noted that both of the jointer tables had
significantly warped and therefore would not provide an accurately
jointed surface on longer/wider boards. After bringing this to the
attention of Felder (mind you this machine was manufactured in 94') the
company stepped up to replacing both tables at no expense. In addition
John Hartshorne has been more than cordial in responding to all
questions and issues. Now that is what I call service and standing
behind your product.

I'm located in the Orting Valley just outside of Tacoma, WA. and would
like to meet other Felder owners in the general Puget Sound area.

OK, I couldn't put this off any longer, and having a messy shop is no
excuse! So, I just uploaded a 180-degree (well almost) view of my shop, as
of a few days ago. It's getting a thorough spring cleaning now, so maybe
I'll post an "after" picture later. You can see my recently acquired '97
BF6-31 front and center in the image. To the left of that is a plywood
Felder mockup that I built before getting the machine to make sure I
wouldn't be too crowded. In back is the Shopsmith, and to the right is my
handy wood storage rack made from the "super-mega-heavy-duty" epoxy coated
shelving system available at most home centers. The AF-22 is out of view to
the left, and the phase converter/electrical stuff out of view on the right.
I'll post pictures of those items a little later.



Click on "Member Shop & Project Pictures" then on my name...

Thanks for viewing..
--
Geoff Shepherd
Everett, WA

Welcome to the group! I'm in Everett and was out your way on business a few
years ago (in Orting, actually). Now there are at least four of us from this
area on the felder-woodworking forum... maybe we should have a BBQ
get-together this summer.

I also have a used BF6-31... a 1997 model. My experience with Felder USA is
similar - I think they intend to make lifetime customers out of us (isn't
that sneaky of them). I feel like I bought a green Mercedes that makes
sawdust instead of burning rubber. Pretty slick.

If you don't mind, what is your first name? I only see your first initial...

..Geoff

Hi all,

This has nothing to do with woodworking, but I have often heard the
comparison of Felder to BMW. Today I went to the Ultimate Driving
Experience, at Hollywood Park (near Los Angeles). It was a 2 hour
driving school with the new BMW SUV X5, it was free and lots of fun.
There were professional drivers teaching you how to drive a car like
you would not believe. You get to drive the car at its limits, learning
quite a bit. It was one of the most exciting things I have done in a
long time.

The program tours the country, check out www.bmwusa.com - go to events
then to the Ultimate Driving Experience.

I know that it will be in San Francisco next month. It will also be in
Dallas & Miami. You do not have to own a BMW to take part in it. If you
have the time and like to drive, check it out. -- Scott

For those who are interested, I was able to find well machined bushings
for using 1-1/4" tooling on a 30mm spindle. Amana's catalog No. BU-566
is just such a bushing. This was not easy to find since the required
wall thickness for this spindle adaptation is a fraction of a
millimeter. Total cost for two bushings was $20.00.

Not quite sure if this response will work or not as this is my first
time in a chat room.

I appreciate your response. In regard to your question and suggestion.
The first name is Rod and I support your idea about getting together
for a BBQ.
You most likely passed my house as you headed into Orting, I'm located
just off highway 161 about two miles north of Orting. You mentioned
that there are two other Felder owners in the area and although I have
not heard from them to date, I hope to in the near future.
Have not had a chance to check the vault as of yet but will be doing so
shortly. Look forward to seeing your shop pictures in addition the
other postings. Always nice to see how others set up their workspace
as there is always something new that I have never thought of doing.
When my wife and I decided to move to the Orting valley it was not
without some regret as I had just finished build a 1,000 sq. ft. shop
which I had to leave behind. I now occupy a 200 sq. ft. garage space.
Oh well, had to keep my wife happy and I did end up with a Felder
machine after all was said and done!
Although off the subject of Felder, I suspect that there may be a wood
turner or two out there as well. I am a member of the South Puget
Sound Chapter of the American Association of Woodturners.


"geoff shepherd" <geof-@...> wrote:
original article:
=165

Welcome to the group! I'm in Everett and was out your way on business

a few

years ago (in Orting, actually). Now there are at least four of us

from this

area on the felder-woodworking forum... maybe we should have a BBQ
get-together this summer.

I also have a used BF6-31... a 1997 model. My experience with Felder

USA is

similar - I think they intend to make lifetime customers out of us

(isn't

that sneaky of them). I feel like I bought a green Mercedes that makes
sawdust instead of burning rubber. Pretty slick.

If you don't mind, what is your first name? I only see your first

initial...

..Geoff

----- Original Message -----
From: R. Barton <r_barton@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 8:04 PM
Subject: [felder-woodworking] Hello

Just logged on to this site and read with great interest all the
comments to Geoff's question. I was glad to hear (or rather read)

that

I have in fact made the right decision in purchasing a Felder BF

6-31.

(snip)

Hi,

Since there has been some discussion about where members live, I would
suggest that we fill out our profiles. You do not have to include
personal information, but a city/state would be great. To edit your
profile, go to the members page, then click on your name, you will be
able to enter information. It would be nice to know who lives nearby,
possibly to meet some of you in person. --Scott

For the past two weeks, as a new member, I have read your comments
about the Robland X31. While I agree with most all that has been
written, I have not seen much written about the Knapp machine. They
also have a 12" and 16" "kombi". I would welcome any input on the
comparison between their CK-410, and the BF-741F.

Just one more thought on this topic. With my X-31 I always had to
wonder if it was going to be accurate when I walked into the shop in
the morning and if it was going to stay accurate during use. With
Felder this concern is gone.

Dear Rod,
Glad you found our group, I think you will enjoy the other members.
How are you commimg with your planer adjustment? I tried to call the
other night. I must have missed you. Feel free to call me if you need
to. If I'm not in the office ask them to connect you to my cell phone.
Thanks,
John





"r. barton" <r_barto-@...> wrote:
original article:
=168

Not quite sure if this response will work or not as this is my first
time in a chat room.

I appreciate your response. In regard to your question and

suggestion.

The first name is Rod and I support your idea about getting together
for a BBQ.
You most likely passed my house as you headed into Orting, I'm located
just off highway 161 about two miles north of Orting. You mentioned
that there are two other Felder owners in the area and although I have
not heard from them to date, I hope to in the near future.
Have not had a chance to check the vault as of yet but will be doing

so

shortly. Look forward to seeing your shop pictures in addition the
other postings. Always nice to see how others set up their workspace
as there is always something new that I have never thought of doing.
When my wife and I decided to move to the Orting valley it was not
without some regret as I had just finished build a 1,000 sq. ft. shop
which I had to leave behind. I now occupy a 200 sq. ft. garage

space.

Oh well, had to keep my wife happy and I did end up with a Felder
machine after all was said and done!
Although off the subject of Felder, I suspect that there may be a wood
turner or two out there as well. I am a member of the South Puget
Sound Chapter of the American Association of Woodturners.


"geoff shepherd" <geof-@...> wrote:
original article:

rt

=165

Welcome to the group! I'm in Everett and was out your way on

business

a few

years ago (in Orting, actually). Now there are at least four of us

from this

area on the felder-woodworking forum... maybe we should have a BBQ
get-together this summer.

I also have a used BF6-31... a 1997 model. My experience with Felder

USA is

similar - I think they intend to make lifetime customers out of us

(isn't

that sneaky of them). I feel like I bought a green Mercedes that

makes

sawdust instead of burning rubber. Pretty slick.

If you don't mind, what is your first name? I only see your first

initial...

..Geoff

----- Original Message -----
From: R. Barton <r_barton@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 8:04 PM
Subject: [felder-woodworking] Hello

Just logged on to this site and read with great interest all the
comments to Geoff's question. I was glad to hear (or rather read)

that

I have in fact made the right decision in purchasing a Felder BF

6-31.

(snip)

I want to thank you all for your posts on Felder vs. Robland X31
issues. I guess you can put me on the list of looking to get a Felder
as a replacement to the X31. Now I need to decide if I should go new,
or used. A new one would be nice, but I will keep my options open for
now. Anybody know of used 6 and 7 series machines available? I could go
4 or 5 group combo or table saw/shaper and joiner/planner units. Since
Felder hasn't mentioned the "new" 700 series, does anybody know what
changes or differences there are with the old models? Thanks again for
you insight. Dennis L. Jacob

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