|
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw? - NO
?I don't already have one.
I don't because I took a good long gander at how? organized and
methodical one has to be to use a combo and that just isn't me.?
I am not an organized person, I don't do this for a living.? Time
is not of the essence. It is all about the journey &? not the
result for me.?? Yes I want great results but?? the journey is
where my heart is.
So a combo would have been a very unpleasant? thing? - - for me.
On 8/17/20 4:32 PM, PK wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have
chosen differently.
PK
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
No worries. I¡¯ve been a part of the FOG for only about 60 days and I¡¯ve learned a lot. Due to the wide breadth of applications here, it is often necessary to sort out the full-timers where the capital cost of large and expensive machines
and space to put them in makes sense in terms of labor savings, from the DIYers that bought into Hammer/Felder because they enjoy nice tools but have different expectations and make different cost/benefit decisions.
?
i am glad you shared that detail. i just wanted to be sure i understood your concern correctly. yes, since an 8¡¯ piece of ply can be xcut on a slider (which one cannot do on a conventional saw) it does require more physical space to do
so.
with overhead saw guard on my K975 the material to the right of the blade if longer than ~50¡± can be only ~18¡± wide. i believe my cast iron table is 36¡± deep.
On Aug 17, 2020, at 5:26 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
?
PK was asking for experiences of combination machine owners, and as I¡¯m a recent convert, I thought my observations about workflow in general might be helpful since I¡¯m keenly aware of differences compared to how I used to do things. You
are right ¨C it¡¯s not Felder¡¯s fault that plywood is 8¡¯ long, but in a conventional table saw your kept piece is typically against the fence and right of the blade, where with the slider, the stop is left of the blade, meaning if you want to avoid the math
of subtracting the blade thickness and kept portion of the wood, the kept piece needs to be left of the blade. It¡¯s not necessarily better or worse, but it is a pretty different workflow with some space impact, at least for me.
?
BTW, my shop is 22¡¯ x 32¡¯ and my CF can use about 18¡¯ along the table axis (total distance including infeed and outfeed) and maybe about 13¡¯ of width. If I would have gotten the full-blown 10¡¯ slider in a CF741 ¨C something that a lot of
folks here recommend to be able to rip 8¡¯ on the table, I would have lost close to 8¡¯ worth of space in length, which in a shop that¡¯s only 32¡¯ on the long wall would have been a challenging sacrifice.
?
¡°Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can¡¯t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the blade to
use the material stops ¨C e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10¡± piece off a full sheet I would need 86¡± right of the blade for clearance, which I don¡¯t have (I actually don¡¯t have it left of the blade either¡±
if i understand your concern above it is not a felder machine issue rather the space you have for the machine. correct?
On Aug 17, 2020, at 5:02 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
?
I just purchased a CF531 and have now had it for a couple weeks. I replaced a 52¡± SawStop cabinet saw. I also previously had a A3/31 jointer/planer. The reason for my change was that I got a CNC machine with a 4¡¯ x 8¡¯ table and have moved
to doing my large sheet processing on the CNC router instead of the table saw. I wanted to reclaim some space.
?
I debated on the Hammer C3 and also just a saw shaper but ended up getting the CF531 for the nicer XRoll table and the tilting shaper. I got the full combo instead of just a saw shaper because the extra jointer/planer function was only
about $2K more than the saw shaper version and also provided some more table surface area.
?
I¡¯m not very far into the machine and this is my first sliding saw, but here are a few initial thoughts:
?
- Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can¡¯t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the
blade to use the material stops ¨C e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10¡± piece off a full sheet I would need 86¡± right of the blade for clearance, which I don¡¯t have (I actually don¡¯t have it left of the blade either ¨C I would probably do that cut with either the track
saw or the CNC router.
- The CF531 slider is perfect for 5¡¯ x 5¡¯ plywood sheets.
- There are some operations that are harder [for me] to do the slider way and therefore I use conventional saw techniques ¨C ripping boards longer than 6¡¯, or combination techniques ¨C
using the fence to put the kept piece of wood to the right of the blade but still using the sliding table to maneuver the rest of the sheet
- The hole in the table between the saw section and the J/P section is mildly annoying to work around ¨C if you want to set the fence at 18¡± you¡¯re doing it with a tape measure rather
than the fence scale. This is a minor nuisance only.
- If you can plan your project where you do your operations in order, then the combination machine is totally functional. If you do a bunch of one-off things where you bounce between
saw and planer especially, the changeovers get annoying fast.
- There are a ton of options that take a lot of time to sort through. If you decide to order one, do your homework to figure out what you need and what the choices are. I had probably
30 hours of research and 4 hours of phone calls with my sales rep.
?
At this point, I think I¡¯m going to keep my A3/31 J/P along with the CF531. The way my shop is laid out I will probably do most of the jointing on the CF531 and planning on the A3/31, but could swap that around depending on the needs of
the job in hand.
?
Short version ¨C if you have a 10,000 sq ft shop and a rich benefactor, then a combo machine is not for you. If you have limited space like I have and your projects are usually on the smaller side, especially if you can plan all of your
construction steps to minimize tool changes, then the combo machine is probably fine.
?
Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
TJ,
i am glad you shared that detail. i just wanted to be sure i understood your concern correctly. yes, since an 8¡¯ piece of ply can be xcut on a slider (which one cannot do on a conventional saw) it does require more physical space to do so.
with overhead saw guard on my K975 the material to the right of the blade if longer than ~50¡± can be only ~18¡± wide. i believe my cast iron table is 36¡± deep.
imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 5:26 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote: ?
PK was asking for experiences of combination machine owners, and as I¡¯m a recent convert, I thought my observations about workflow in general might be helpful since I¡¯m keenly aware of differences compared to how I used to do things. You
are right ¨C it¡¯s not Felder¡¯s fault that plywood is 8¡¯ long, but in a conventional table saw your kept piece is typically against the fence and right of the blade, where with the slider, the stop is left of the blade, meaning if you want to avoid the math
of subtracting the blade thickness and kept portion of the wood, the kept piece needs to be left of the blade. It¡¯s not necessarily better or worse, but it is a pretty different workflow with some space impact, at least for me.
?
BTW, my shop is 22¡¯ x 32¡¯ and my CF can use about 18¡¯ along the table axis (total distance including infeed and outfeed) and maybe about 13¡¯ of width. If I would have gotten the full-blown 10¡¯ slider in a CF741 ¨C something that a lot of
folks here recommend to be able to rip 8¡¯ on the table, I would have lost close to 8¡¯ worth of space in length, which in a shop that¡¯s only 32¡¯ on the long wall would have been a challenging sacrifice.
?
¡°Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can¡¯t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the blade to
use the material stops ¨C e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10¡± piece off a full sheet I would need 86¡± right of the blade for clearance, which I don¡¯t have (I actually don¡¯t have it left of the blade either¡±
if i understand your concern above it is not a felder machine issue rather the space you have for the machine. correct?
On Aug 17, 2020, at 5:02 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
?
I just purchased a CF531 and have now had it for a couple weeks. I replaced a 52¡± SawStop cabinet saw. I also previously had a A3/31 jointer/planer. The reason for my change was that I got a CNC machine with a 4¡¯ x 8¡¯ table and have moved
to doing my large sheet processing on the CNC router instead of the table saw. I wanted to reclaim some space.
?
I debated on the Hammer C3 and also just a saw shaper but ended up getting the CF531 for the nicer XRoll table and the tilting shaper. I got the full combo instead of just a saw shaper because the extra jointer/planer function was only
about $2K more than the saw shaper version and also provided some more table surface area.
?
I¡¯m not very far into the machine and this is my first sliding saw, but here are a few initial thoughts:
?
- Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can¡¯t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the
blade to use the material stops ¨C e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10¡± piece off a full sheet I would need 86¡± right of the blade for clearance, which I don¡¯t have (I actually don¡¯t have it left of the blade either ¨C I would probably do that cut with either the track
saw or the CNC router.
- The CF531 slider is perfect for 5¡¯ x 5¡¯ plywood sheets.
- There are some operations that are harder [for me] to do the slider way and therefore I use conventional saw techniques ¨C ripping boards longer than 6¡¯, or combination techniques ¨C
using the fence to put the kept piece of wood to the right of the blade but still using the sliding table to maneuver the rest of the sheet
- The hole in the table between the saw section and the J/P section is mildly annoying to work around ¨C if you want to set the fence at 18¡± you¡¯re doing it with a tape measure rather
than the fence scale. This is a minor nuisance only.
- If you can plan your project where you do your operations in order, then the combination machine is totally functional. If you do a bunch of one-off things where you bounce between
saw and planer especially, the changeovers get annoying fast.
- There are a ton of options that take a lot of time to sort through. If you decide to order one, do your homework to figure out what you need and what the choices are. I had probably
30 hours of research and 4 hours of phone calls with my sales rep.
?
At this point, I think I¡¯m going to keep my A3/31 J/P along with the CF531. The way my shop is laid out I will probably do most of the jointing on the CF531 and planning on the A3/31, but could swap that around depending on the needs of
the job in hand.
?
Short version ¨C if you have a 10,000 sq ft shop and a rich benefactor, then a combo machine is not for you. If you have limited space like I have and your projects are usually on the smaller side, especially if you can plan all of your
construction steps to minimize tool changes, then the combo machine is probably fine.
?
Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
PK,
i am a hobby WW as well and started with KF700SP with 2m slider. that was fine when i was otherwise employed and worked small projects. few yrs before retirement my workload at real job settled and i started spending more time in the shop and i realized the limitation of the saw shaper.
i sold my separate Jointer and planer and got a felder combo J/P. i find that considerably more palatable than saw/shaper. for one you are not removing things and putting them elsewhere like a shaper hood and various hold downs. secondly a DRO on planer allows you to go back to previous setting.
then i got a felder saw and now my KF serves as a shaper. if space and funds do not allow it is an easy call. i rather have a saw/shaper vs saw only. also, as others have pointed out, if you projects are small and you are not working on multiple things KF will be fine also.
imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 4:32 PM, PK <paul.kellymjc@...> wrote: ?Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
PK was asking for experiences of combination machine owners, and as I¡¯m a recent convert, I thought my observations about workflow in general might be helpful since I¡¯m keenly aware of differences compared to how I used to do things. You
are right ¨C it¡¯s not Felder¡¯s fault that plywood is 8¡¯ long, but in a conventional table saw your kept piece is typically against the fence and right of the blade, where with the slider, the stop is left of the blade, meaning if you want to avoid the math
of subtracting the blade thickness and kept portion of the wood, the kept piece needs to be left of the blade. It¡¯s not necessarily better or worse, but it is a pretty different workflow with some space impact, at least for me.
?
BTW, my shop is 22¡¯ x 32¡¯ and my CF can use about 18¡¯ along the table axis (total distance including infeed and outfeed) and maybe about 13¡¯ of width. If I would have gotten the full-blown 10¡¯ slider in a CF741 ¨C something that a lot of
folks here recommend to be able to rip 8¡¯ on the table, I would have lost close to 8¡¯ worth of space in length, which in a shop that¡¯s only 32¡¯ on the long wall would have been a challenging sacrifice.
?
¡°Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can¡¯t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the blade to
use the material stops ¨C e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10¡± piece off a full sheet I would need 86¡± right of the blade for clearance, which I don¡¯t have (I actually don¡¯t have it left of the blade either¡±
if i understand your concern above it is not a felder machine issue rather the space you have for the machine. correct?
On Aug 17, 2020, at 5:02 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
?
I just purchased a CF531 and have now had it for a couple weeks. I replaced a 52¡± SawStop cabinet saw. I also previously had a A3/31 jointer/planer. The reason for my change was that I got a CNC machine with a 4¡¯ x 8¡¯ table and have moved
to doing my large sheet processing on the CNC router instead of the table saw. I wanted to reclaim some space.
?
I debated on the Hammer C3 and also just a saw shaper but ended up getting the CF531 for the nicer XRoll table and the tilting shaper. I got the full combo instead of just a saw shaper because the extra jointer/planer function was only
about $2K more than the saw shaper version and also provided some more table surface area.
?
I¡¯m not very far into the machine and this is my first sliding saw, but here are a few initial thoughts:
?
- Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can¡¯t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the
blade to use the material stops ¨C e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10¡± piece off a full sheet I would need 86¡± right of the blade for clearance, which I don¡¯t have (I actually don¡¯t have it left of the blade either ¨C I would probably do that cut with either the track
saw or the CNC router.
- The CF531 slider is perfect for 5¡¯ x 5¡¯ plywood sheets.
- There are some operations that are harder [for me] to do the slider way and therefore I use conventional saw techniques ¨C ripping boards longer than 6¡¯, or combination techniques ¨C
using the fence to put the kept piece of wood to the right of the blade but still using the sliding table to maneuver the rest of the sheet
- The hole in the table between the saw section and the J/P section is mildly annoying to work around ¨C if you want to set the fence at 18¡± you¡¯re doing it with a tape measure rather
than the fence scale. This is a minor nuisance only.
- If you can plan your project where you do your operations in order, then the combination machine is totally functional. If you do a bunch of one-off things where you bounce between
saw and planer especially, the changeovers get annoying fast.
- There are a ton of options that take a lot of time to sort through. If you decide to order one, do your homework to figure out what you need and what the choices are. I had probably
30 hours of research and 4 hours of phone calls with my sales rep.
?
At this point, I think I¡¯m going to keep my A3/31 J/P along with the CF531. The way my shop is laid out I will probably do most of the jointing on the CF531 and planning on the A3/31, but could swap that around depending on the needs of
the job in hand.
?
Short version ¨C if you have a 10,000 sq ft shop and a rich benefactor, then a combo machine is not for you. If you have limited space like I have and your projects are usually on the smaller side, especially if you can plan all of your
construction steps to minimize tool changes, then the combo machine is probably fine.
?
Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
TJ,
¡°Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can¡¯t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the blade to use the material stops ¨C e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10¡± piece off a full sheet I would need 86¡± right of the blade for clearance, which I don¡¯t have (I actually don¡¯t have it left of the blade either¡±
if i understand your concern above it is not a felder machine issue rather the space you have for the machine. correct?
imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 5:02 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote: ?
I just purchased a CF531 and have now had it for a couple weeks. I replaced a 52¡± SawStop cabinet saw. I also previously had a A3/31 jointer/planer. The reason for my change was that I got a CNC machine with a 4¡¯ x 8¡¯ table and have moved
to doing my large sheet processing on the CNC router instead of the table saw. I wanted to reclaim some space.
?
I debated on the Hammer C3 and also just a saw shaper but ended up getting the CF531 for the nicer XRoll table and the tilting shaper. I got the full combo instead of just a saw shaper because the extra jointer/planer function was only
about $2K more than the saw shaper version and also provided some more table surface area.
?
I¡¯m not very far into the machine and this is my first sliding saw, but here are a few initial thoughts:
?
- Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can¡¯t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the
blade to use the material stops ¨C e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10¡± piece off a full sheet I would need 86¡± right of the blade for clearance, which I don¡¯t have (I actually don¡¯t have it left of the blade either ¨C I would probably do that cut with either the track
saw or the CNC router.
- The CF531 slider is perfect for 5¡¯ x 5¡¯ plywood sheets.
- There are some operations that are harder [for me] to do the slider way and therefore I use conventional saw techniques ¨C ripping boards longer than 6¡¯, or combination techniques ¨C
using the fence to put the kept piece of wood to the right of the blade but still using the sliding table to maneuver the rest of the sheet
- The hole in the table between the saw section and the J/P section is mildly annoying to work around ¨C if you want to set the fence at 18¡± you¡¯re doing it with a tape measure rather
than the fence scale. This is a minor nuisance only.
- If you can plan your project where you do your operations in order, then the combination machine is totally functional. If you do a bunch of one-off things where you bounce between
saw and planer especially, the changeovers get annoying fast.
- There are a ton of options that take a lot of time to sort through. If you decide to order one, do your homework to figure out what you need and what the choices are. I had probably
30 hours of research and 4 hours of phone calls with my sales rep.
?
At this point, I think I¡¯m going to keep my A3/31 J/P along with the CF531. The way my shop is laid out I will probably do most of the jointing on the CF531 and planning on the A3/31, but could swap that around depending on the needs of
the job in hand.
?
Short version ¨C if you have a 10,000 sq ft shop and a rich benefactor, then a combo machine is not for you. If you have limited space like I have and your projects are usually on the smaller side, especially if you can plan all of your
construction steps to minimize tool changes, then the combo machine is probably fine.
?
Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
Rule 1 with a combi. ?Always, but always rip, plane and thickness an extra length or two. ?DAMHIKT.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 17 Aug 2020, at 22:02, TJ Cornish < tj@...> wrote:
I just purchased a CF531 and have now had it for a couple weeks. I replaced a 52¡± SawStop cabinet saw. I also previously had a A3/31 jointer/planer. The reason for my change was that I got a CNC machine with a 4¡¯ x 8¡¯ table and have moved to doing my large sheet processing on the CNC router instead of the table saw. I wanted to reclaim some space. ? I debated on the Hammer C3 and also just a saw shaper but ended up getting the CF531 for the nicer XRoll table and the tilting shaper. I got the full combo instead of just a saw shaper because the extra jointer/planer function was only about $2K more than the saw shaper version and also provided some more table surface area. ? I¡¯m not very far into the machine and this is my first sliding saw, but here are a few initial thoughts: ? - Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can¡¯t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the blade to use the material stops ¨C e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10¡± piece off a full sheet I would need 86¡± right of the blade for clearance, which I don¡¯t have (I actually don¡¯t have it left of the blade either ¨C I would probably do that cut with either the track saw or the CNC router.
- The CF531 slider is perfect for 5¡¯ x 5¡¯ plywood sheets.
- There are some operations that are harder [for me] to do the slider way and therefore I use conventional saw techniques ¨C ripping boards longer than 6¡¯, or combination techniques ¨C using the fence to put the kept piece of wood to the right of the blade but still using the sliding table to maneuver the rest of the sheet
- The hole in the table between the saw section and the J/P section is mildly annoying to work around ¨C if you want to set the fence at 18¡± you¡¯re doing it with a tape measure rather than the fence scale. This is a minor nuisance only.
- If you can plan your project where you do your operations in order, then the combination machine is totally functional. If you do a bunch of one-off things where you bounce between saw and planer especially, the changeovers get annoying fast.
- There are a ton of options that take a lot of time to sort through. If you decide to order one, do your homework to figure out what you need and what the choices are. I had probably 30 hours of research and 4 hours of phone calls with my sales rep.
? At this point, I think I¡¯m going to keep my A3/31 J/P along with the CF531. The way my shop is laid out I will probably do most of the jointing on the CF531 and planning on the A3/31, but could swap that around depending on the needs of the job in hand. ? Short version ¨C if you have a 10,000 sq ft shop and a rich benefactor, then a combo machine is not for you. If you have limited space like I have and your projects are usually on the smaller side, especially if you can plan all of your construction steps to minimize tool changes, then the combo machine is probably fine. ? Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK?
|
Re: dust collection question
it has been a long while but i recall my KF having an adj current sense relay.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 4:43 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote: ?My father produces a metalworking machine and I assisted him in setting up the magnetic starter/overload protection box, which in the case of the product he was using was adjustable. My father's machine is user-fed, meaning that the load on the motor is proportional to how hard you push on the thing, very much like most woodworking tools. Based on the empirical testing we did, it is indeed difficult to know how hard you are pushing, especially with changing conditions like a dulling cutter or harder material. I think the best way to determine when you've reached the limit is by watching the motor current draw. When you've hit the full load amps as defined by Felder, then you're done. The motor will probably have more gas in the tank for short bursts, but that's approaching the red line. I just changed from a SawStop industrial saw with a 5HP motor to the ~4HP motor in my new CF531 combo machine. I'm not sure if I'm still adjusting to the different feel of pushing via the slider compared to just pushing the material into the blade, but I would say that working with 3/4" Baltic birch I have had to back off my feed rate compared to what I was used to on the 5HP Sawstop. Someday I'll pull out my current clamp and try to get an idea of if I'm overdriving my machine. For now I'm using my eyes and ears. RE load protection - I don't think I have a copy of the wiring schematic to see if there is overcurrent protection inside my machine, but I think it's interesting that Felder states that this machine should be protected by a breaker not larger than 20A (yes I know we recently discussed this on the list and that most people put it on a 30A). The cord my machine came with has 2.5mm conductors which translates to 13 AWG and slightly less than 20A ampacity. ?On 8/17/20, 1:08 PM, " [email protected] on behalf of imranindiana via groups.io" < [email protected] on behalf of imranindiana@...> wrote: as a concept, i have no issues with duty classification of motors. it allows manufacturer to provide a cost effective solution for each application. i just have a problem with derating a motor in an application where the load can exceed the derated HP. i hope that in such cases there are appropriate thermal limits or other protective measures to protect the motor because as a user i have no clue what level of load i am presenting to the motor. imran On Aug 17, 2020, at 1:05 PM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote:
?On 17-8-2020 16:49, Brian Lamb wrote:
3hp is 3hp, doesn¡¯t matter if it¡¯s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don¡¯t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor¡. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick. No it is not. It has to do with duty cycles and periods under load and reaching thermal equilibrium. S1 means continuous duty under load, S6 means continuous operation with periodic duty, which means the difference between S1 and S6 is that in the latter situation the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping for a while in between periods of use. See for illustrative diagrams and explanation: Regards, Jonathan
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
I just purchased a CF531 and have now had it for a couple weeks. I replaced a 52¡± SawStop cabinet saw. I also previously had a A3/31 jointer/planer. The reason for my change was that I got a CNC machine with a 4¡¯ x 8¡¯ table and have moved
to doing my large sheet processing on the CNC router instead of the table saw. I wanted to reclaim some space.
?
I debated on the Hammer C3 and also just a saw shaper but ended up getting the CF531 for the nicer XRoll table and the tilting shaper. I got the full combo instead of just a saw shaper because the extra jointer/planer function was only
about $2K more than the saw shaper version and also provided some more table surface area.
?
I¡¯m not very far into the machine and this is my first sliding saw, but here are a few initial thoughts:
?
- Felder recommends way more operating clearance around the machine than I (and probably most people have). Because of that, I can¡¯t always put my kept piece of wood to the left of the
blade to use the material stops ¨C e.g. if I wanted to cut a 10¡± piece off a full sheet I would need 86¡± right of the blade for clearance, which I don¡¯t have (I actually don¡¯t have it left of the blade either ¨C I would probably do that cut with either the track
saw or the CNC router.
- The CF531 slider is perfect for 5¡¯ x 5¡¯ plywood sheets.
- There are some operations that are harder [for me] to do the slider way and therefore I use conventional saw techniques ¨C ripping boards longer than 6¡¯, or combination techniques ¨C
using the fence to put the kept piece of wood to the right of the blade but still using the sliding table to maneuver the rest of the sheet
- The hole in the table between the saw section and the J/P section is mildly annoying to work around ¨C if you want to set the fence at 18¡± you¡¯re doing it with a tape measure rather
than the fence scale. This is a minor nuisance only.
- If you can plan your project where you do your operations in order, then the combination machine is totally functional. If you do a bunch of one-off things where you bounce between
saw and planer especially, the changeovers get annoying fast.
- There are a ton of options that take a lot of time to sort through. If you decide to order one, do your homework to figure out what you need and what the choices are. I had probably
30 hours of research and 4 hours of phone calls with my sales rep.
?
At this point, I think I¡¯m going to keep my A3/31 J/P along with the CF531. The way my shop is laid out I will probably do most of the jointing on the CF531 and planning on the A3/31, but could swap that around depending on the needs of
the job in hand.
?
Short version ¨C if you have a 10,000 sq ft shop and a rich benefactor, then a combo machine is not for you. If you have limited space like I have and your projects are usually on the smaller side, especially if you can plan all of your
construction steps to minimize tool changes, then the combo machine is probably fine.
?
Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
Mark,
Thanks for the input!? What combo do you own?
PK
|
Re: dust collection question
My father produces a metalworking machine and I assisted him in setting up the magnetic starter/overload protection box, which in the case of the product he was using was adjustable. My father's machine is user-fed, meaning that the load on the motor is proportional to how hard you push on the thing, very much like most woodworking tools. Based on the empirical testing we did, it is indeed difficult to know how hard you are pushing, especially with changing conditions like a dulling cutter or harder material. I think the best way to determine when you've reached the limit is by watching the motor current draw. When you've hit the full load amps as defined by Felder, then you're done. The motor will probably have more gas in the tank for short bursts, but that's approaching the red line. I just changed from a SawStop industrial saw with a 5HP motor to the ~4HP motor in my new CF531 combo machine. I'm not sure if I'm still adjusting to the different feel of pushing via the slider compared to just pushing the material into the blade, but I would say that working with 3/4" Baltic birch I have had to back off my feed rate compared to what I was used to on the 5HP Sawstop. Someday I'll pull out my current clamp and try to get an idea of if I'm overdriving my machine. For now I'm using my eyes and ears. RE load protection - I don't think I have a copy of the wiring schematic to see if there is overcurrent protection inside my machine, but I think it's interesting that Felder states that this machine should be protected by a breaker not larger than 20A (yes I know we recently discussed this on the list and that most people put it on a 30A). The cord my machine came with has 2.5mm conductors which translates to 13 AWG and slightly less than 20A ampacity. ?On 8/17/20, 1:08 PM, " [email protected] on behalf of imranindiana via groups.io" < [email protected] on behalf of imranindiana@...> wrote: as a concept, i have no issues with duty classification of motors. it allows manufacturer to provide a cost effective solution for each application. i just have a problem with derating a motor in an application where the load can exceed the derated HP. i hope that in such cases there are appropriate thermal limits or other protective measures to protect the motor because as a user i have no clue what level of load i am presenting to the motor. imran
On Aug 17, 2020, at 1:05 PM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote:
?On 17-8-2020 16:49, Brian Lamb wrote:
> 3hp is 3hp, doesn¡¯t matter if it¡¯s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don¡¯t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor¡. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick.
No it is not. It has to do with duty cycles and periods under load and reaching thermal equilibrium.
S1 means continuous duty under load, S6 means continuous operation with periodic duty, which means the difference between S1 and S6 is that in the latter situation the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping for a while in between periods of use.
See for illustrative diagrams and explanation:
Regards,
Jonathan
|
Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
Yes, I have one, my shop is 685 sq feet and I am a hobbiest. I think it is the perfect machine for me. Sure a separate would be nice but I do not have room and the budget point for a saw/shaper is nicer than separates.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK
|
Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
Specifically, if you have a small footprint shop (hobbiest).
If you already have one, I would love to know if you would have chosen differently.
PK
|
Re: dust collection question
Brian,
Can you tell from the tag if the motors in my CF731 are S1 or S6?
The tag on the CF731 says 3kw but the motors say 2kw.
Joe in New Orleans
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:45 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
?I¡¯m not sure what you mean by ¡°no it is not¡±, a marketing gimmick? If so, yes it is. They get to call the motor a larger hp than it can provide running full load S1. If you dig into the actual motor specs, which I did years ago (2001 when I got my machines) you will find that the diameter and lengths of the motor are different depending upon the rating. The S6 3kw motors I got were actually only 2.2kw S1 motors.
In actuality Felder should be supplying S7 motors and not S6, as they allow for more frequent starts and stops.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
On Aug 17, 2020, at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote:
On 17-8-2020 16:49, Brian Lamb wrote:
3hp is 3hp, doesn¡¯t matter if it¡¯s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don¡¯t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor¡. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick. No it is not. It has to do with duty cycles and periods under load and reaching thermal equilibrium.
S1 means continuous duty under load, S6 means continuous operation with periodic duty, which means the difference between S1 and S6 is that in the latter situation the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping for a while in between periods of use.
See for illustrative diagrams and explanation:
Regards,
Jonathan
|
Re: dust collection question
as a concept, i have no issues with duty classification of motors. it allows manufacturer to provide a cost effective solution for each application.
i just have a problem with derating a motor in an application where the load can exceed the derated HP. i hope that in such cases there are appropriate thermal limits or other protective measures to protect the motor because as a user i have no clue what level of load i am presenting to the motor.
imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 1:05 PM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote: ?On 17-8-2020 16:49, Brian Lamb wrote: 3hp is 3hp, doesn¡¯t matter if it¡¯s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don¡¯t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor¡. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick. No it is not. It has to do with duty cycles and periods under load and reaching thermal equilibrium. S1 means continuous duty under load, S6 means continuous operation with periodic duty, which means the difference between S1 and S6 is that in the latter situation the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping for a while in between periods of use. See for illustrative diagrams and explanation: Regards, Jonathan
|
Re: dust collection question
I¡¯m not sure what you mean by ¡°no it is not¡±, a marketing gimmick? If so, yes it is. They get to call the motor a larger hp than it can provide running full load S1. If you dig into the actual motor specs, which I did years ago (2001 when I got my machines) you will find that the diameter and lengths of the motor are different depending upon the rating. The S6 3kw motors I got were actually only 2.2kw S1 motors.
In actuality Felder should be supplying S7 motors and not S6, as they allow for more frequent starts and stops.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Martens <jonathan@...> wrote:
On 17-8-2020 16:49, Brian Lamb wrote:
3hp is 3hp, doesn¡¯t matter if it¡¯s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don¡¯t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor¡. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick. No it is not. It has to do with duty cycles and periods under load and reaching thermal equilibrium.
S1 means continuous duty under load, S6 means continuous operation with periodic duty, which means the difference between S1 and S6 is that in the latter situation the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping for a while in between periods of use.
See for illustrative diagrams and explanation:
Regards,
Jonathan
|
Re: dust collection question
On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 08:43 AM, imranindiana wrote:
high torque of diesel moves weight more efficiently than a gasoline engine
You're confusing torque (force), HP (work) and efficiency.? ?You should do some reading to get these concepts straight. Analogies to ICE is also complicated by different energy densities -- diesel has more energy per unit mass than gasoline does, and there is analog to this in 1P v 3P.
|
Re: dust collection question
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 17, 2020, at 1:00 PM, jmkserv@... wrote: ?
Sorry Imran couldn't resist pal, now that you've joined the senior crowd.?
-------- Original message -------- From: "imranindiana via groups.io" <imranindiana@...> Date: 2020-08-17 12:43 p.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
okay John, 3100 cubic meter per hr.
On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:09 PM, jmkserv@... wrote:
?
I would really like to see what it takes to produce 3100 cubic meters/sec. Big LOL.?
-------- Original message -------- From: "imranindiana via groups.io" <imranindiana@...> Date: 2020-08-17 11:43 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
this has been a point of interest for my nerd self. when i saw the AF22 spec (which BTW is 3100cubicm/s) it made me think diesel vs gasoline engines as a very loose comparison. high torque of diesel moves weight more efficiently than a gasoline engine. same HP diesel engine can have twice the torque. so just talking out loud.
i am trying to find torque vs current plots of 3ph and 1ph motors to see if i learn something.
imran
On Aug 17, 2020, at 11:06 AM, jmkserv@... wrote:
?
Also Felder has proven over the years their actual specs listed in catalogs are up for debate as far air flow goes. Many misprint. Austria being a metric country calculate in Cubic Meters per minute which sometimes gets confusing for those accustomed to Cubic Feet per minute.?
-------- Original message -------- From: Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> Date: 2020-08-17 10:49 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] dust collection question
3hp is 3hp, doesn¡¯t matter if it¡¯s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don¡¯t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor¡. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick.
when i look up AF 22 on eshop there is something interesting. 3HP, 3ph moves same amount of air as 4HP, 1ph unit. anyone know if these specifications are correct?
i am interested in understanding if 3ph motor has advantage over 1ph. this might be a good example possibly showing (or not) that the higher torque of 3ph can do more actual work under load than a 1ph motor both pulling same current.
imran? ?I have an AF 22 for sale.? It can be wall mounted up out of the way and use just on bag to save space.
|
Re: dust collection question
On 17-8-2020 16:49, Brian Lamb wrote: 3hp is 3hp, doesn¡¯t matter if it¡¯s a single or three phase motor. If the specs say the same CFM is accomplished, then the specs are most likely wrong, or they are using the same exact impeller and housing and the 4hp motor is essentially over kill for the application. Don¡¯t forget, Felder uses the S1 and S6 motor specifications, so hp is a relative term depending upon the rating of the motor¡. the S1 3hp motor is the same as a S6 4hp motor. It is a marketing gimmick. No it is not. It has to do with duty cycles and periods under load and reaching thermal equilibrium. S1 means continuous duty under load, S6 means continuous operation with periodic duty, which means the difference between S1 and S6 is that in the latter situation the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping for a while in between periods of use. See for illustrative diagrams and explanation: Regards, Jonathan
|
Mark Foster
imran
PK
Jonathan Martens