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Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
And there is another listing at $100 now, no bid yet. Weird. On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 4:25 PM James Zhu via <james.zhu2=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: The Unofficial Survival Guide
One hour left, the bid is $1,625! James On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:14 AM Michael Marsico <michael.marsico1@...> wrote:
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Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýThe other interesting question I asked was how much do we think a router bit slows down when under load in a router.? In the shaper it does not slow at all.? With some electronic variable speed controllers like Festool I think they hold an RPM.? My older single speed routers are 23,000 RPM with no load but as soon as I start cutting the sound pitch drops a lot indicating that the RPMs have dropped a lot.? I would not be surprised if the ?¡± straight bit RPMs drop to 15K with a router when cutting. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of David Kumm
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 10:30 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111 ? Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work at the 15K range.? Dave ? From:
[email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> ? Hi Joe, ? I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways. ? I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter dia less than 100mm. So now we have this: ? ? However, 4¡± (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia) for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise. ? Here is the data for above graph ? Imran ? From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen ? Number of flutes is important too. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of imranindiana via groups.io ? would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use. ? Imran
? My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s <image0.jpeg> ? ? lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage. ? There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b <image1.jpeg> ? ? I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle? ? Imran
? Not meant to be sarcastic¡I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.? ? I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I¡¯ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference. ? Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that¡¯s where ¡°you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits¡± wisdom arose? ? Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn¡¯t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot. ? So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow? ? ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson ? This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings. Cheers Eric ? On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýMy most used router bit is a 1/8¡± round over. Most of the time it¡¯s in the router spindle already.? It¡¯s removing almost nothing but the cut is great.? Used a 45 bevel router bit yesterday in the router spindle (never even looked at the RPM setting on the VFD) and it¡¯s cutting diameter the way I used it was like 7/8¡±.? Just removing a small amount of stock.? ? If anyone has any experiment ideas I would be happy to run some tests at 15,000 and 23,000 to see the difference using a power feeder.? Could but a new bit and test at the two RPM settings and 2 or 3 feed rates. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of David Kumm
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 10:30 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [FOG] Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111 ? Tip speed is most critical.? Feed speed can compensate for fast tip speed but not slow.? Number of flutes helps the cuts per inch but doesn't help when the tip speed slow other than potentially having each flute take less cut.? My experience with the 15K limit on the Felder is that core box and cove bits give me the most problem as speed is slow and a fair amount of stock needs to be removed.? I run those bits at 23K but most others seem to work at the 15K range.? Dave ? From:
[email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> ? Hi Joe, ? I did not post because I did not think I good useable info but here it is anyways. ? I choose b=100 because it has lines for the smallest cutter dia on all 4 plots. So I replotted b=100 lines from 4 diff graphs onto a single graph. Then I extrapolated for smaller spindle dia of 10mm & 20mm. Then extrapolated for cutter dia less than 100mm. So now we have this: ? ? However, 4¡± (100mm) is not a realistic cutting edge for a router bit. I thought anymore extrapolation (which would move 10mm & 20mm curves in NE direction) would likely be not valid. If Felder provided more data (for smaller cutter dia) for b=10 in their plots then it would be a more appropriate to repeat the above exercise. ? Here is the data for above graph ? Imran ? From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Joe Jensen ? Number of flutes is important too. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of imranindiana via groups.io ? would be interesting to put the data points from the 4 graphs to see if the relationship is linear. If so we can easily extrapolate if fir router use. ? Imran
? My machine has generic guide that is based upon recommended feed rate between 40 & 70m/s <image0.jpeg> ? ? lower feed rate than 40m/s can result in kickback and higher than 75m/s can cause damage to tooling not to mention excessive wear if the tool continues to run w/o damage. ? There is a graph in the manual that further refined this with inclusion of cutter length b <image1.jpeg> ? ? I know this does not cover router spindle. Has anyone seen a graph like above from Felder for router spindle? ? Imran
? Not meant to be sarcastic¡I read all the time that 15,000 is too slow for small bits.? Is there engineering behind this?? Seems like RPM and feed rate and chip removal are related.? Higher RPM allows for a faster feed rate. But also if the feed rate is too low relative to the RPM you get poor results.? For commercial cutters for the shaper you often get given the ideal RPM/Feed rate.? ? I have not used my router inverted in a table since getting my Felder early 2010.? The router spindle with my machine was rated for 19,000 rpm continuously, and for up to 23,000 RPM for short use with higher bearing wear.? I¡¯ve tried small bits at 15,000, 19,000, and 23,000 RPM and not noticed any difference. ? Could be that single speed routers all ran at a nominal 22,000-23,000 with no load and bigger bits were a problem with vibration.? So then when router bits west big they made variable speed routers to slow them down for big bits and maybe that¡¯s where ¡°you need 22,000 RPM to run small bits¡± wisdom arose? ? Also, ever notice how with a very light cut at 22K RPM with pitch is high and as soon as you load the router down the pitch lowers a lot? What RPM is the motor actually running at under load?? With my 4kw shaper motor my 15K RPM spindle doesn¡¯t slow at all.? I would not be surprised at all to see that under load routers slow down a lot. ? So, does anyone have science or engineering on the Intrawebs wisdom that says 15,000 RPM is too slow? ? ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Eric Janson ? This spindle works at 15,000 rpm, so for smaller- diameter router bits the cutting edge speed is kind of low. For larger bits and deeper cuts, it works great, having many HP behind it, and is as close to totally?vibration- free as you are going to get. Changing spindles is not difficult, but changing back and forth is a pain, so my cast- iron router table is my go- to for that sort of work unless I feel I really need what the Felder spindle brings. Cheers Eric ? On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: CF741, Thicknesser, Feed Roller Problem
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýHi Gary, U.K. (european) terminology better describes the machine function even to the uninitiated. Too bad, looks like you may actually need to adjust or replace. Please do share your solution since I have experienced what you describe. It is possible that it is just not bad enough yet on my dual51. Imran On Dec 31, 2020, at 3:15 PM, garyfergus84 <garyfergus@...> wrote:
?Hello Imran, Thanks for the reply, you make a good point but the problem occurs with all timbers including hardwoods, and I wax the tables regularly. Just a point of clarification. I'm in the UK, I believe what we call the "thicknesser" is called the "planer" in North America. |
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Re: CF741, Thicknesser, Feed Roller Problem
Hello Imran,
Thanks for the reply, you make a good point but the problem occurs with all timbers including hardwoods, and I wax the tables regularly. Just a point of clarification. I'm in the UK, I believe what we call the "thicknesser" is called the "planer" in North America. |
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Re: VIP Program from Felder
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On Dec 31, 2020, at 2:54 PM, tom@... wrote:
? I placed an order for $3k+ in accessories last week using the code. I noticed ~$500 in shipping as well, after chatting with my salesperson these are the takeaways: - The inventory displayed on the e-Shop is controlled by the mothership in Austria, and does not necessarily represent what is actually available.
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Re: VIP Program from Felder
I placed an order for $3k+ in accessories last week using the code. I noticed ~$500 in shipping as well, after chatting with my salesperson these are the takeaways: - The inventory displayed on the e-Shop is controlled by the mothership in Austria, and does not necessarily represent what is actually available.
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Re: Dealing with woodworking machine companies - Harvey
Fair's fair.? I e-mailed a complaint to the e-mail David Best referenced yesterday, and received a totally appropriate response from Felder.? My back-ordered handwheel that I had been previously told would get here when Austria gets around to sending it is miraculously being shipped today from their California store.? It really shouldn't take "going to the top" to resolve and issue that shouldn't have been an issue in the first place, but at least it has now been resolved.? The A3 has been "drop shipped" to my mover who will deliver it to my shop within the hour hopefully. On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 8:00 PM Robert Johnson <woodewe@...> wrote: Interesting; I say nice things about Harvey and the thread immediately circles back to the frustration with Felder? |
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Re: CF741, Thicknesser, Feed Roller Problem
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýBefore you adjust anything, what wood are you thicknessing? I have had this exact issue with cypress and recently with WR Cedar. These woods are sticky. Never had an issue with hard wood. It also only happens on the back half of the planer table because that is what i use for planing. Switching to front half has never failed. So my theory is that table needs to be cleaned ?and waxed. This so far has worked for me. I would suggest trying this if you have not already before any adjustment. Imran On Dec 31, 2020, at 2:19 PM, garyfergus84 <garyfergus@...> wrote:
?When thicknessing the workpiece increasingly ends up stuck under the knives, a few inches from the end. I can pull the work through, and if I catch it in time there's no problems, if I don't get it in time it leaves an effect that looks a bit like snipe. I presume the second feed roller, the smooth one, isn't functioning properly. The manual talks about adjusting two screws by the cutter block to adjust the second feed roller, but it makes dire warnings that this should only be done with great care. Has anyone else encountered this problem and if so how did you resolve it? Thanks! |
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CF741, Thicknesser, Feed Roller Problem
When thicknessing the workpiece increasingly ends up stuck under the knives, a few inches from the end. I can pull the work through, and if I catch it in time there's no problems, if I don't get it in time it leaves an effect that looks a bit like snipe.
I presume the second feed roller, the smooth one, isn't functioning properly. The manual talks about adjusting two screws by the cutter block to adjust the second feed roller, but it makes dire warnings that this should only be done with great care. Has anyone else encountered this problem and if so how did you resolve it? Thanks! |
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Re: VIP Program from Felder
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýNot sure if you would be interested in picking up from Dallas. If so call your rep and tell him that. You shoukd be place your order via phone and take advantage of the 10% (i hope). Imran On Dec 31, 2020, at 2:06 PM, Larry <larry@...> wrote:
?I had hemmed and hawed about buying a FAT 300 and decided I would order it today. Got most of the way through the process and was ready to order until I noticed that it was going to cost $500 to ship it. My 800# lathe was just a little more than that and it was shipped from Wisconsin...my guess is that the FAT 300 will be shipped from Dallas (I live in the Houston area).?
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Re: VIP Program from Felder
Since I've had my fat 300,and the salesman had to talk me into it, I've been overjoyed at what it does for you from taking the outrigger off, or sheets of ply off the back of a pickup right up to the saw. Awesome machine whatever the cost. Bill B¨¦langer On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 12:05 PM Larry <larry@...> wrote: I had hemmed and hawed about buying a FAT 300 and decided I would order it today. Got most of the way through the process and was ready to order until I noticed that it was going to cost $500 to ship it. My 800# lathe was just a little more than that and it was shipped from Wisconsin...my guess is that the FAT 300 will be shipped from Dallas (I live in the Houston area).? |
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Re: VIP Program from Felder
I had hemmed and hawed about buying a FAT 300 and decided I would order it today. Got most of the way through the process and was ready to order until I noticed that it was going to cost $500 to ship it. My 800# lathe was just a little more than that and it was shipped from Wisconsin...my guess is that the FAT 300 will be shipped from Dallas (I live in the Houston area).?
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Re: Dealing with woodworking machine companies - Harvey
to add to that drift, Cliff, I love it that GM went to stainless steel exhaust system back in 90s. My first car in USA was a new 1984 Toyota Celica. I drove short distances so muffler lasted maybe 3yrs. I had it replaced by Midas with life time warranty and definitely got my money¡¯s worth as I was probably on the 3rd or 4th muffler. Some pipe and hangers were replaced as well in the 14 yrs i had the car. Since then i have had 4 GM vehicles and none needed anything replaced on the exhaust. Owned S10 truck for 12 yrs and 03¡¯ & ¡®09 avalanches are still going ?
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Imran On Dec 31, 2020, at 12:53 PM, Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq. <rohrabacher@...> wrote:
? On 12/30/20 10:19 PM, TJ Cornish wrote: whole point of an electric car is efficiency. If the charger HHAHAHAHA I remember in the s FORD did a survey on the cost to produce a stainless steel exhaust. They concluded that it'd be something like $120 more at retail to do so and nixed the idea. Car manufacturers will kill to save a nickel. |
Joe Jensen
imran
garyfergus84
Tom Gensmer
Jeff
Bill Belanger
Larry