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Re: See the new dust collector?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hahaha!

Warm regards,
David

Dr David Luckensmeyer
Practice Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?

and

Designer and Woodworker
Original Designs in Wood
?

On 2 Dec 2016, at 10:33 AM, 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:




Wood dust and health risks seems to be a controversial topic without any clear authority to draw conclusions from.


I¡¯m pretty sure this is where the current ¡°Fake News¡± trend started - around dust collection specs.

David Best
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

David don't know what your referring to when you say fake news, please enlighten me.?


John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...>
Date: 2016-12-01 7:33 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] See the new dust collector?

?



Wood dust and health risks seems to be a controversial topic without any clear authority to draw conclusions from.


I¡¯m pretty sure this is where the current ¡°Fake News¡± trend started - around dust collection specs.

David Best
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý



Wood dust and health risks seems to be a controversial topic without any clear authority to draw conclusions from.


I¡¯m pretty sure this is where the current ¡°Fake News¡± trend started - around dust collection specs.

David Best
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

>?I¡¯m no expert, but I think that is why Felder (and others) quote amounts/volumes, rather than sizes?

Presumably the reason they use mg/m3 is because that's the standard medical exposure metric. ?For example, OSHA doesn't specify filter size, it specifies the maximum quantity (in mg) of dust that can be present in each cubic meter of air in the workplace. ? This metric does not factor particle size, but I believe the threshold assumes a typical particle size distribution -- that is to say, if you are under the threshold, you can assume you are safe regardless of the particle size distribution. ?

Fwiw, the NIOSH exposure limit is 1mg/m3.?
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

I don't see how the micron level of the filter and the mg/m3 are not directly related (not necessarily a linear relationship).? Of course they are not the same thing, but changing the micron level of the filter will definitely impact the mg/m3 level.? I see no way around that concept.? If your filter is actually filtering anything at all, then increasing the max micron level of the filter will by definition allow more particles through which will increase the mg/m3 level. ?

mg/m3 is not a measure of volume, it is more a definition of "dust density".

Wood dust and health risks seems to be a controversial topic without any clear authority to draw conclusions from.



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, John jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?

The only filter that gets 100% is totally plugged. A filter is also at its highest efficiency just before its plugged, Hepa or not. We're splitting a hell of a lot of hairs between 0.1, 0.05, 0.03. They are all Hepa rated and considered extremely safe and typically emit air cleaner than the air we breathe.?


John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "David Luckensmeyer dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 2016-12-01 6:33 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] See the new dust collector?

?

Brian, you¡¯ve hit the nail on the head (as usual). Whether a filter can filter down to a certain size or not is only one half of the story. It¡¯s the percentage efficiency that provides the other half. A filter that can filter down to 5 microns is definitely not good enough. But for filters that can filter down to 1 micron, or 0.5 microns, I¡¯ve never seen one that has 100% efficiency. This means that the filters are not getting all of the particles down to that size.?


I¡¯m no expert, but I think that is why Felder (and others) quote amounts/volumes, rather than sizes?

Warm regards,
David

Dr David Luckensmeyer
Practice Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?

and

Designer and Woodworker
Original Designs in Wood
?

On 2 Dec 2016, at 9:09 AM, Brian Lamb blamb11@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I guess I should have continued my train of thought¡­. I didn¡¯t see anything enlightening on the Festool group. I think an engineer for these dust collector companies would have to provide more info. What micron level the filters clean to is totally separate from how many milligrams per cubic meter is emitted from the DC.?


Obviously the less volume is emitted the better, but i think the size of particles has some bearing on health issues too.

Brian Lamb




On Dec 1, 2016, at 9:06 AM, John Kee?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Brian we were obviously trying to find a correlation between the apples and oranges. I think if you read the Festool link you will see the connection or am I completely missing something.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Brian Lamb?blamb11@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

You guys are talking apples to oranges¡­. the mg/m3 is ¡°Volume¡±, it¡¯s .05 milligrams per cubic meter. The other is dust particle size, microns. So it depends upon how well the unit separates the dust particle size in the airstream, and then the pass through of the filters will determine the amount in milligrams per cubic meter of air.


Brian Lamb




On Dec 1, 2016, at 8:24 AM, James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


I have no doubt that Felder RL is rated at HEPA level filtration.

Festool dust extractor has 0.3 micron HEPA filter,?.

So 0.05 mg/m? on Gyro Air is at least?HEPA level filtration, otherwise, they will not be able to sell it in Europe.

James


On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:14 AM, John Kee?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

I remembered there was discussion about this and found this thread on Festool Forum. The long and the short from what I read is that Felders H3 .1mg/m3 translates to HEPA filtration. See post #5 for those interested. Felder rates there filter as Class M which also says Hepa level filtration.



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:11 AM, James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

John,

I was trying to figure out what exact micron is equivalent to 0.05 mg/m? filter emission rating on the Gryo air dust collector spec?.

II checked Felder's RL160 spec, and its filter emission rating is 0.1?mg/m?,?

This means the air coming out of Gryo air dust collector is even cleaner than Felder RL's.

James


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:35 PM, John?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

I agree James, but in today's world when your trying to sell equipment with a high price tag don't you think that you would him at least checked what the rocket scientists in marketing department were putting out there on the web. LOL. ?



John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?
Date: 2016-11-29 12:16 PM (GMT-05:00)?
To: "phil_moger@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector??

?

I think it is a typo.?

If it was 5 micron, I do not think the owner of bridge city would buy it because he is allergic to wood dust as mentioned in the following review of his new dust collector.



James






On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM,?andy.giddings@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

As the filter appears to be 5 micron, seems more like a large dust distributor than a collector :-) Hope that's a misprint









--?
John Kee
JMK Services








--?
John Kee
JMK Services
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

The only filter that gets 100% is totally plugged. A filter is also at its highest efficiency just before its plugged, Hepa or not. We're splitting a hell of a lot of hairs between 0.1, 0.05, 0.03. They are all Hepa rated and considered extremely safe and typically emit air cleaner than the air we breathe.?


John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "David Luckensmeyer dhluckens@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...>
Date: 2016-12-01 6:33 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] See the new dust collector?

?

Brian, you¡¯ve hit the nail on the head (as usual). Whether a filter can filter down to a certain size or not is only one half of the story. It¡¯s the percentage efficiency that provides the other half. A filter that can filter down to 5 microns is definitely not good enough. But for filters that can filter down to 1 micron, or 0.5 microns, I¡¯ve never seen one that has 100% efficiency. This means that the filters are not getting all of the particles down to that size.?


I¡¯m no expert, but I think that is why Felder (and others) quote amounts/volumes, rather than sizes?

Warm regards,
David

Dr David Luckensmeyer
Practice Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?

and

Designer and Woodworker
Original Designs in Wood
?

On 2 Dec 2016, at 9:09 AM, Brian Lamb blamb11@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

I guess I should have continued my train of thought¡­. I didn¡¯t see anything enlightening on the Festool group. I think an engineer for these dust collector companies would have to provide more info. What micron level the filters clean to is totally separate from how many milligrams per cubic meter is emitted from the DC.?


Obviously the less volume is emitted the better, but i think the size of particles has some bearing on health issues too.

Brian Lamb




On Dec 1, 2016, at 9:06 AM, John Kee?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:


Brian we were obviously trying to find a correlation between the apples and oranges. I think if you read the Festool link you will see the connection or am I completely missing something.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Brian Lamb?blamb11@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

You guys are talking apples to oranges¡­. the mg/m3 is ¡°Volume¡±, it¡¯s .05 milligrams per cubic meter. The other is dust particle size, microns. So it depends upon how well the unit separates the dust particle size in the airstream, and then the pass through of the filters will determine the amount in milligrams per cubic meter of air.


Brian Lamb




On Dec 1, 2016, at 8:24 AM, James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


I have no doubt that Felder RL is rated at HEPA level filtration.

Festool dust extractor has 0.3 micron HEPA filter,?.

So 0.05 mg/m? on Gyro Air is at least?HEPA level filtration, otherwise, they will not be able to sell it in Europe.

James


On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:14 AM, John Kee?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

I remembered there was discussion about this and found this thread on Festool Forum. The long and the short from what I read is that Felders H3 .1mg/m3 translates to HEPA filtration. See post #5 for those interested. Felder rates there filter as Class M which also says Hepa level filtration.



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:11 AM, James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

John,

I was trying to figure out what exact micron is equivalent to 0.05 mg/m? filter emission rating on the Gryo air dust collector spec?.

II checked Felder's RL160 spec, and its filter emission rating is 0.1?mg/m?,?

This means the air coming out of Gryo air dust collector is even cleaner than Felder RL's.

James


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:35 PM, John?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

I agree James, but in today's world when your trying to sell equipment with a high price tag don't you think that you would him at least checked what the rocket scientists in marketing department were putting out there on the web. LOL. ?



John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?
Date: 2016-11-29 12:16 PM (GMT-05:00)?
To: "phil_moger@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector??

?

I think it is a typo.?

If it was 5 micron, I do not think the owner of bridge city would buy it because he is allergic to wood dust as mentioned in the following review of his new dust collector.



James






On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM,?andy.giddings@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

As the filter appears to be 5 micron, seems more like a large dust distributor than a collector :-) Hope that's a misprint









--?
John Kee
JMK Services








--?
John Kee
JMK Services
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Brian, you¡¯ve hit the nail on the head (as usual). Whether a filter can filter down to a certain size or not is only one half of the story. It¡¯s the percentage efficiency that provides the other half. A filter that can filter down to 5 microns is definitely not good enough. But for filters that can filter down to 1 micron, or 0.5 microns, I¡¯ve never seen one that has 100% efficiency. This means that the filters are not getting all of the particles down to that size.?

I¡¯m no expert, but I think that is why Felder (and others) quote amounts/volumes, rather than sizes?

Warm regards,
David

Dr David Luckensmeyer
Practice Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?

and

Designer and Woodworker
Original Designs in Wood
?

On 2 Dec 2016, at 9:09 AM, Brian Lamb blamb11@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

I guess I should have continued my train of thought¡­. I didn¡¯t see anything enlightening on the Festool group. I think an engineer for these dust collector companies would have to provide more info. What micron level the filters clean to is totally separate from how many milligrams per cubic meter is emitted from the DC.?


Obviously the less volume is emitted the better, but i think the size of particles has some bearing on health issues too.

Brian Lamb




On Dec 1, 2016, at 9:06 AM, John Kee?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:


Brian we were obviously trying to find a correlation between the apples and oranges. I think if you read the Festool link you will see the connection or am I completely missing something.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Brian Lamb?blamb11@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

You guys are talking apples to oranges¡­. the mg/m3 is ¡°Volume¡±, it¡¯s .05 milligrams per cubic meter. The other is dust particle size, microns. So it depends upon how well the unit separates the dust particle size in the airstream, and then the pass through of the filters will determine the amount in milligrams per cubic meter of air.


Brian Lamb




On Dec 1, 2016, at 8:24 AM, James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


I have no doubt that Felder RL is rated at HEPA level filtration.

Festool dust extractor has 0.3 micron HEPA filter,?.

So 0.05 mg/m? on Gyro Air is at least?HEPA level filtration, otherwise, they will not be able to sell it in Europe.

James


On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:14 AM, John Kee?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

I remembered there was discussion about this and found this thread on Festool Forum. The long and the short from what I read is that Felders H3 .1mg/m3 translates to HEPA filtration. See post #5 for those interested. Felder rates there filter as Class M which also says Hepa level filtration.



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:11 AM, James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

John,

I was trying to figure out what exact micron is equivalent to 0.05 mg/m? filter emission rating on the Gryo air dust collector spec?.

II checked Felder's RL160 spec, and its filter emission rating is 0.1?mg/m?,?

This means the air coming out of Gryo air dust collector is even cleaner than Felder RL's.

James


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:35 PM, John?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

I agree James, but in today's world when your trying to sell equipment with a high price tag don't you think that you would him at least checked what the rocket scientists in marketing department were putting out there on the web. LOL. ?



John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?
Date: 2016-11-29 12:16 PM (GMT-05:00)?
To: "phil_moger@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector??

?

I think it is a typo.?

If it was 5 micron, I do not think the owner of bridge city would buy it because he is allergic to wood dust as mentioned in the following review of his new dust collector.



James






On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM,?andy.giddings@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

As the filter appears to be 5 micron, seems more like a large dust distributor than a collector :-) Hope that's a misprint









--?
John Kee
JMK Services








--?
John Kee
JMK Services
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I guess I should have continued my train of thought¡­. I didn¡¯t see anything enlightening on the Festool group. I think an engineer for these dust collector companies would have to provide more info. What micron level the filters clean to is totally separate from how many milligrams per cubic meter is emitted from the DC.?

Obviously the less volume is emitted the better, but i think the size of particles has some bearing on health issues too.

Brian Lamb




On Dec 1, 2016, at 9:06 AM, John Kee jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:


Brian we were obviously trying to find a correlation between the apples and oranges. I think if you read the Festool link you will see the connection or am I completely missing something.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Brian Lamb?blamb11@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

You guys are talking apples to oranges¡­. the mg/m3 is ¡°Volume¡±, it¡¯s .05 milligrams per cubic meter. The other is dust particle size, microns. So it depends upon how well the unit separates the dust particle size in the airstream, and then the pass through of the filters will determine the amount in milligrams per cubic meter of air.


Brian Lamb




On Dec 1, 2016, at 8:24 AM, James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


I have no doubt that Felder RL is rated at HEPA level filtration.

Festool dust extractor has 0.3 micron HEPA filter,?.

So 0.05 mg/m? on Gyro Air is at least?HEPA level filtration, otherwise, they will not be able to sell it in Europe.

James


On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:14 AM, John Kee?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

I remembered there was discussion about this and found this thread on Festool Forum. The long and the short from what I read is that Felders H3 .1mg/m3 translates to HEPA filtration. See post #5 for those interested. Felder rates there filter as Class M which also says Hepa level filtration.



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:11 AM, James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

John,

I was trying to figure out what exact micron is equivalent to 0.05 mg/m? filter emission rating on the Gryo air dust collector spec?.

II checked Felder's RL160 spec, and its filter emission rating is 0.1?mg/m?,?

This means the air coming out of Gryo air dust collector is even cleaner than Felder RL's.

James


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:35 PM, John?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

I agree James, but in today's world when your trying to sell equipment with a high price tag don't you think that you would him at least checked what the rocket scientists in marketing department were putting out there on the web. LOL. ?



John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?
Date: 2016-11-29 12:16 PM (GMT-05:00)?
To: "phil_moger@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector??

?

I think it is a typo.?

If it was 5 micron, I do not think the owner of bridge city would buy it because he is allergic to wood dust as mentioned in the following review of his new dust collector.



James






On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM,?andy.giddings@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

As the filter appears to be 5 micron, seems more like a large dust distributor than a collector :-) Hope that's a misprint









--?
John Kee
JMK Services








--?
John Kee
JMK Services
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

Yes, I emailed their director (Ben Chan) for international marketing regarding the filtration.

I told him that all the cheap or junk dust collectors sold in North America come with 5 micron filter. A lot of people replaced the 5 micron filter with the 0.5 micron filter made by Wynn environmental.

By having a 5 micron filter on the dust collector regardless how excellent the design/performance is, it basically puts the product inline with the cheap/junk models in terms of air filtration, huge mistake. Customer should not pay extra to upgrade the filter, a US$ 4000 dust collector should equip with HEPA filter (0.3 micron like Festool's).

James



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Cliff rohrabacher@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

5 micron filter. That's a little sloppy



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Re: See the new dust collector?

Cliff
 

5 micron filter. That's a little sloppy
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

Brian we were obviously trying to find a correlation between the apples and oranges. I think if you read the Festool link you will see the connection or am I completely missing something.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Brian Lamb blamb11@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

?

You guys are talking apples to oranges¡­. the mg/m3 is ¡°Volume¡±, it¡¯s .05 milligrams per cubic meter. The other is dust particle size, microns. So it depends upon how well the unit separates the dust particle size in the airstream, and then the pass through of the filters will determine the amount in milligrams per cubic meter of air.


Brian Lamb




On Dec 1, 2016, at 8:24 AM, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


I have no doubt that Felder RL is rated at HEPA level filtration.

Festool dust extractor has 0.3 micron HEPA filter,?.

So 0.05 mg/m? on Gyro Air is at least?HEPA level filtration, otherwise, they will not be able to sell it in Europe.

James


On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:14 AM, John Kee?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

I remembered there was discussion about this and found this thread on Festool Forum. The long and the short from what I read is that Felders H3 .1mg/m3 translates to HEPA filtration. See post #5 for those interested. Felder rates there filter as Class M which also says Hepa level filtration.



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:11 AM, James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

John,

I was trying to figure out what exact micron is equivalent to 0.05 mg/m? filter emission rating on the Gryo air dust collector spec?.

II checked Felder's RL160 spec, and its filter emission rating is 0.1?mg/m?,?

This means the air coming out of Gryo air dust collector is even cleaner than Felder RL's.

James


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:35 PM, John?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

I agree James, but in today's world when your trying to sell equipment with a high price tag don't you think that you would him at least checked what the rocket scientists in marketing department were putting out there on the web. LOL. ?



John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?
Date: 2016-11-29 12:16 PM (GMT-05:00)?
To: "phil_moger@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector??

?

I think it is a typo.?

If it was 5 micron, I do not think the owner of bridge city would buy it because he is allergic to wood dust as mentioned in the following review of his new dust collector.



James






On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM,?andy.giddings@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@...>?wrote:
?

As the filter appears to be 5 micron, seems more like a large dust distributor than a collector :-) Hope that's a misprint









--?
John Kee
JMK Services







--
John Kee
JMK Services
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Are Euro and US HEPA standards the same?? There is always a lot of talk about filtration standards but a good quality collector with quality filters will return air that won't kill you.? As important, maybe more so, is to size the system correctly to pull enough cfm to reduce the dust envelope that never makes it to the collector.? Get the cfm right and any spun bond, nano, hepa or singed poly felt will return better air than what you breathe in the real world.? Dave



From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 10:24 AM
To: phil_moger@... [felder-woodworking]
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector?
?
?

I have no doubt that Felder RL is rated at HEPA level filtration.

Festool dust extractor has 0.3 micron HEPA filter,?.

So 0.05 mg/m? on Gyro Air is at least?HEPA level filtration, otherwise, they will not be able to sell it in Europe.

James


On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:14 AM, John Kee jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?

I remembered there was discussion about this and found this thread on Festool Forum. The long and the short from what I read is that Felders H3 .1mg/m3 translates to HEPA filtration. See post #5 for those interested. Felder rates there filter as Class M which also says Hepa level filtration.



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:11 AM, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?

John,

I was trying to figure out what exact micron is equivalent to 0.05 mg/m? filter emission rating on the Gryo air dust collector spec?.

II checked Felder's RL160 spec, and its filter emission rating is 0.1?mg/m?,?

This means the air coming out of Gryo air dust collector is even cleaner than Felder RL's.

James


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:35 PM, John jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?

I agree James, but in today's world when your trying to sell equipment with a high price tag don't you think that you would him at least checked what the rocket scientists in marketing department were putting out there on the web. LOL. ?



John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 2016-11-29 12:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "phil_moger@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector?

?

I think it is a typo.?

If it was 5 micron, I do not think the owner of bridge city would buy it because he is allergic to wood dust as mentioned in the following review of his new dust collector.



James






On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM, andy.giddings@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?

As the filter appears to be 5 micron, seems more like a large dust distributor than a collector :-) Hope that's a misprint





--
John Kee
JMK Services
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

You guys are talking apples to oranges¡­. the mg/m3 is ¡°Volume¡±, it¡¯s .05 milligrams per cubic meter. The other is dust particle size, microns. So it depends upon how well the unit separates the dust particle size in the airstream, and then the pass through of the filters will determine the amount in milligrams per cubic meter of air.

Brian Lamb




On Dec 1, 2016, at 8:24 AM, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:


I have no doubt that Felder RL is rated at HEPA level filtration.

Festool dust extractor has 0.3 micron HEPA filter,?.

So 0.05 mg/m? on Gyro Air is at least?HEPA level filtration, otherwise, they will not be able to sell it in Europe.

James


On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:14 AM, John Kee?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?wrote:
?

I remembered there was discussion about this and found this thread on Festool Forum. The long and the short from what I read is that Felders H3 .1mg/m3 translates to HEPA filtration. See post #5 for those interested. Felder rates there filter as Class M which also says Hepa level filtration.



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:11 AM, James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?wrote:
?

John,

I was trying to figure out what exact micron is equivalent to 0.05 mg/m? filter emission rating on the Gryo air dust collector spec?.

II checked Felder's RL160 spec, and its filter emission rating is 0.1?mg/m?,?

This means the air coming out of Gryo air dust collector is even cleaner than Felder RL's.

James


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:35 PM, John?jmkserv@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?wrote:
?

I agree James, but in today's world when your trying to sell equipment with a high price tag don't you think that you would him at least checked what the rocket scientists in marketing department were putting out there on the web. LOL. ?



John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu?james.zhu2@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?
Date: 2016-11-29 12:16 PM (GMT-05:00)?
To: "phil_moger@...?[felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector??

?

I think it is a typo.?

If it was 5 micron, I do not think the owner of bridge city would buy it because he is allergic to wood dust as mentioned in the following review of his new dust collector.



James






On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM,?andy.giddings@...?[felder-woodworking]?<felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>?wrote:
?

As the filter appears to be 5 micron, seems more like a large dust distributor than a collector :-) Hope that's a misprint









--?
John Kee
JMK Services
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

I have no doubt that Felder RL is rated at HEPA level filtration.

Festool dust extractor has 0.3 micron HEPA filter,?.

So 0.05 mg/m? on Gyro Air is at least?HEPA level filtration, otherwise, they will not be able to sell it in Europe.

James


On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:14 AM, John Kee jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?

I remembered there was discussion about this and found this thread on Festool Forum. The long and the short from what I read is that Felders H3 .1mg/m3 translates to HEPA filtration. See post #5 for those interested. Felder rates there filter as Class M which also says Hepa level filtration.



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:11 AM, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?

John,

I was trying to figure out what exact micron is equivalent to 0.05 mg/m? filter emission rating on the Gryo air dust collector spec?.

II checked Felder's RL160 spec, and its filter emission rating is 0.1?mg/m?,?

This means the air coming out of Gryo air dust collector is even cleaner than Felder RL's.

James


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:35 PM, John jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?

I agree James, but in today's world when your trying to sell equipment with a high price tag don't you think that you would him at least checked what the rocket scientists in marketing department were putting out there on the web. LOL. ?



John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 2016-11-29 12:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "phil_moger@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector?

?

I think it is a typo.?

If it was 5 micron, I do not think the owner of bridge city would buy it because he is allergic to wood dust as mentioned in the following review of his new dust collector.



James






On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM, andy.giddings@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?

As the filter appears to be 5 micron, seems more like a large dust distributor than a collector :-) Hope that's a misprint






--
John Kee
JMK Services
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

I remembered there was discussion about this and found this thread on Festool Forum. The long and the short from what I read is that Felders H3 .1mg/m3 translates to HEPA filtration. See post #5 for those interested. Felder rates there filter as Class M which also says Hepa level filtration.



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:11 AM, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:

?

John,

I was trying to figure out what exact micron is equivalent to 0.05 mg/m? filter emission rating on the Gryo air dust collector spec?.

II checked Felder's RL160 spec, and its filter emission rating is 0.1?mg/m?,?

This means the air coming out of Gryo air dust collector is even cleaner than Felder RL's.

James


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:35 PM, John jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?

I agree James, but in today's world when your trying to sell equipment with a high price tag don't you think that you would him at least checked what the rocket scientists in marketing department were putting out there on the web. LOL. ?



John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 2016-11-29 12:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "phil_moger@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector?

?

I think it is a typo.?

If it was 5 micron, I do not think the owner of bridge city would buy it because he is allergic to wood dust as mentioned in the following review of his new dust collector.



James






On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM, andy.giddings@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?

As the filter appears to be 5 micron, seems more like a large dust distributor than a collector :-) Hope that's a misprint






--
John Kee
JMK Services
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

James that sticker is on the side of my RL160, I also haven't found a direct cross from these numbers to actual filtration. Might to contact a filter manufacturer to see what they say.?



John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...>
Date: 2016-12-01 9:11 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: "phil_moger@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...>
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector?

?

John,

I was trying to figure out what exact micron is equivalent to 0.05 mg/m? filter emission rating on the Gryo air dust collector spec?.

II checked Felder's RL160 spec, and its filter emission rating is 0.1?mg/m?,?

This means the air coming out of Gryo air dust collector is even cleaner than Felder RL's.

James


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:35 PM, John jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?

I agree James, but in today's world when your trying to sell equipment with a high price tag don't you think that you would him at least checked what the rocket scientists in marketing department were putting out there on the web. LOL. ?



John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 2016-11-29 12:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "phil_moger@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector?

?

I think it is a typo.?

If it was 5 micron, I do not think the owner of bridge city would buy it because he is allergic to wood dust as mentioned in the following review of his new dust collector.



James






On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM, andy.giddings@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?

As the filter appears to be 5 micron, seems more like a large dust distributor than a collector :-) Hope that's a misprint
Re: Hello all,

 

Regarding heat. Where are you located? I'm here in Minnesota. I had a pole barn shop quite a few years back. Those buildings are very difficult to insulate properly and as a result hard to heat. I set my thermostat to roll back to about 50 overnight. Even then I had some trouble with surface rust on machined cast iron tables, not to mention internal screws and shafts etc. I would not be contemplating dropping 20 grand, much less 200 in a building that was going to freeze. It will be trouble. If you can make it warm to work in there, you should be able to keep it warm all the time, correct? Its only money.

I love shopping for used machinery, I'd be happy to assist. On simple things like sanders and jointers, there is not a lot to go wrong. I've got a good wide belt tech here in MN that was very helpful and will look at used stuff and weigh in. There are some brands he told me to not even bother looking at too. My machine is a bare bones Ramco from the late 80's. Not his favorite, but he set it up and it sands flat and parallel within a couple thou over 37". Not bad for under $4k.

Edge sanders are the most used machines in our shop. Oakley, Wysong, Eckstrom Carlson were the cream of the crop, ran all day every day for decades in factories. My 112 with a 7.5 hp motor is a shaping beast. Its also the best way to joint veneers up to 60" long. I used a newish Kundig for a while and its a terrific, although small machine.

If you want to send me links to used stuff, I'd be happy to give you my opinion.

Thanks
Jason

Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture

3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
Re: See the new dust collector?

 

John,

I was trying to figure out what exact micron is equivalent to 0.05 mg/m? filter emission rating on the Gryo air dust collector spec?.

II checked Felder's RL160 spec, and its filter emission rating is 0.1?mg/m?,?

This means the air coming out of Gryo air dust collector is even cleaner than Felder RL's.

James


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:35 PM, John jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?

I agree James, but in today's world when your trying to sell equipment with a high price tag don't you think that you would him at least checked what the rocket scientists in marketing department were putting out there on the web. LOL. ?



John
JMK Services?




-------- Original message --------
From: "James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 2016-11-29 12:16 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "phil_moger@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Re: See the new dust collector?

?

I think it is a typo.?

If it was 5 micron, I do not think the owner of bridge city would buy it because he is allergic to wood dust as mentioned in the following review of his new dust collector.



James






On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM, andy.giddings@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?

As the filter appears to be 5 micron, seems more like a large dust distributor than a collector :-) Hope that's a misprint
Re: Hello all,

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I would look at the Felder rebadged EMC widebelts if still available.? If not, EMC is sold elsewhere here in US.? SCM sells lots of WB too.? 3S is a nice machine.? The Felder ACM rebadged bandsaws or the minimax Centauro saws would be my choice.? Either in the 28" range with a 17" resaw.? The 24x24 machine has too high a resaw for its size IMO.? Dave



From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of Rick Fisher rickfisher.cbs@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 11:37 PM
To: felder-woodworking@...
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
?

Well .?

I have a Martin T-60C sliding table saw that I am getting acquainted with .. ? Its by far the nicest built machine in my shop. ??

The Felder Edge Sander I bought used for about half, ?its a great machine.. ?built in Spindle sander which uses drum sander paper instead of tubes.. ?brilliant design .. ?lots of power.? I think its actually made by ACM in Italy and branded Felder. ?

Felder Dust collector, ?Griggio planer, Griggio jointer, SCM Wide Belt Sander and MM-24 Bandsaw .. plus and older SCM 24" bandsaw for resawing. ?

So I guess other than Martin .. I have 2 of quite a few brands.?

Griggio is a good brand.? IMO they tend to be simpler, and heavily built. ? Griggio and Martin use Milled cast Iron ( which I prefer ) .. ? SCM and Felder use regular cast.? Does it matter ? not really ..

On the subject of reliability..? These are rugged machines.? They can also give you as much trouble brand new as used.? In fact, ?used tends to have the bugs worked out. ??

I'm going to upgrade my Wide Belt soon and am probably going to buy a Houfek from Czech..? I've compared the Felder 950 Classic, ?Sandya 1s and the Buldog 3 ..? The Houfek seems right to me.?

A wide belt sander is IMO a great machine.. ?so handy .. used all the time .. ?

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 6:36 PM, GLEN chris3645@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?

Hi Rick
I would love to consider used equipment, and I should but here is my issues
I am not sure what i am looking at it may be clean but am I inheriting some one else problem, has the machine been work to death.

While i can make amazing things from raw wood, my skills, mechanical skills on working on repair of machinery is limited.
Location: I found some things of interest but they are 3000 miles away, cost to go look at it and if get it back here, and may have to work on it i can burn a lot of money fast.
As you said and i agree the are some machines I should buy used and some machines I would never buy used.

so what do you have for the saw, band saw and Wide belt. I was looking felder on the wide belt but from ones response i dropped it off my list with Felder.

if you don't mind,? tell me about you edge sander I dropped it of my list with Felder because at 10k i could not really see it . My and my old shop mate made our own, he was the mechanical guy i made the table , fence and the dust collection part. I think we less than a grand in it

Glen




-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Fisher rickfisher.cbs@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Nov 30, 2016 5:37 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
Hey Glen.. ?

$200,000 is a decent chunk of money ..? I would still look at buying some used machinery simply because of the savings vs value. ?

Big Jointers don't seem hard to come by and they're such a simple tool.? You can pick up a 16" SCM or Griggio for 40-50 percent of new.. ?make sure it has a Tersa head or similar, and it will still be good for another 50 years. ? Shapers seem plentiful used as well, the power feeder is pretty much thrown in on a used shaper, but I can tell you its not on a new one. .lol?

A good used SCM T-130 is a common machine.. ?lots of power, lots of capacity ..?

My favorite tools are my slider, Bandsaw, Wide belt and edge sander. ? The edge sander is a Felder, ?really a great machine. ??

You might want to check out Festool as well for smaller machines..?

?

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 5:16 PM, GLEN chris3645@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?
I would like to thank everyone of you for all the information you have provide me . I have read every post very carefully and ended up with 6 pages of notes and hundred of questions. I have learned more her in 24 hours than i have in the last three months. I have a very hard time with details i get out of salesmen, I do know their final agenda. ?

So if you don't mind im going to ask you guys & you Julie a lot of questions.

Im going to work with one machine at a time so my pea sized brain does not explode and take more notes from you.
so before i start with my first machine i have generic things to mention.

for the one that said it will be fun spending someone else s money or something along that line, Please do! you all have hundred times or more knowledge thank I do. This is a one time thing for me and i will make mistakes, I am not going to be able and just run out and drop another 20k on a machine of I make that mistake.

my space:2800 Sf about 300 sf of office i really don't need Ill use one room for old stile drafting table and to set up a space for my CAD system the othe office i guess will be a crash pad when i cant get home because of snow and the rest I guess to store samples and finished product. what i like about the building is i have the high ceilings which is very hard to get up here

My Budget Its not unlimited. I have saved for over ten years for this day, that said I have 200k for this project not including the building.
That is for everything from the big tools down to the countersink bits. my girlfriend was not very happy when i told her100k if she findsout its twice that? will probably be living in my shop.

So my first question

Felder:I like Felder i think they make a good machine for the price, a little more machine than i really need but if i actually ever make anything to sell and sell it i want to have a little more machine than i think I need.

I plan to have Felder deliver install/set up and run the machines at my shop. althoiugh the extra cost i think it is well worth it for me buying machines i am not familer with. I am planing on doing a service contract with Felder yearly or bi yearly () the say they offer it but i don't know the costs yet) My biggest concern is service and parts and the timeline.... One of you mention this

and one last thing for now before I bore you to death

Electronics They scare me, I know they have come along way and are a lot better but in my building which will not be conditioned all the time can get in the mid teens in the winter. Felder doesn't seen there is a big issue but I do Thats my first and biggest question from you that work in areas that get this cold. I have started to look in to a systen to heat the machines? internally but that wont do any good for the cnc data screens.

Thank you all
Glen
and its 19 deg F tonight



?


-----Original Message-----
From: David Davies myfinishingtouch@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Nov 30, 2016 3:27 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,
?
Glen,
? Something you'll want to consider is support...this forum is an excellent source of support for Felder equipment.? Felder may or may not monitor the forum but if you're having issues with your machines this forum can get you answers.
Dave

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Joe dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?
Glen,

Don't get obsessed with buying the best machine available. ?

It does not make sense to buy a Martin t27 shaper if you are a hobbyist.? You will be paying for features you will not take advantage of.? If you have a shop with multiple employees running long hours you get the maximum benefit from a very heavy duty large machine.? Some of the value of Martin is in the ability to run hour after hour day after day, if you run your shaper a few hours a week you may not need the extra robustness. That said, if I had the space and money was not an issue I would love to have a t27 with tenoning table powered power feeder arm.

One nice thing about heavy robust machines that most here will hopefully never learn about first hand is that a heavy machine is much better when something goes wrong.? If you are spinning a heavy cutter on a shaper and a knife breaks resulting is an unbalanced spinning object a light machine which worked well with a balanced cutter may start oscillating and the operator will have less time to shut everything down before something fails.? While it is possible to spin a 40 pound 12" cutter on a single trunnion f700z it is much better to use a Profile 45 in the event that something goes wrong for safety reasons.

I took delivery of a Profile 45z X-motion in March to replace my f700z and am very happy.? I especially love X-motion control.? Also, recognize that machines with elaborate control systems may have a limited lifespan.? What do you do when your touch screen goes out on a 10 year old machine?? Look at the value of used CNC routers to see what I mean.? I look for machines with generic modular control system ?components.? Felder uses such parts and has been good at helping me repair older Felder machines.? In 2009 Felder's service department provided updated electronics for my year 2000 cf731p combination machine.? It now has modular electronics that can be easily repaired. ?

Joe in New Orleans?

On Nov 30, 2016, at 4:45 AM, 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?
I¡¯ll second Dave Kumm¡¯s comment that there isn¡¯t a single brand that is best-in-breed at everything. ? My shop is mostly Felder (Kappa 400 xMotion, Profil 45, Dual 51, RL160), and I have owned various Felder machines since I slipped into the deep end of the pool in 2001. ? Felder isn¡¯t perfect - no company is. ? I have also been a Martin dealer.? While I respect Martin's in-house machines, they are not without their own quirks, and some of their machines are made by other companies. ? No company covers the equipment territory with all best-in-breed machines. ? Even Marin has disgruntled customers. ? ?

If you have NO BUDGET CONSTRAINTS, you can do better than Felder in almost every category, but not from a single supplier IMO. ? If, on the other hand, you¡¯re looking for exceptional value from a single source, Felder is a great choice for several categories of equipment. ? Felder is also a progressive growth company, comes up with terrific innovations from time to time (Silent Power cutterhead on their J/P¡¯s to name just one), and invests heavily in R&D and manufacturing. ? In contrast, the Martin factory looks like a re-tooled tank manufacturing facility from WWII, and they have had their share management turmoil the past 10 years. ? I don¡¯t want to dis Martin, they do make great machines, but they come at a price, and not everything in their line is on par.

Your Felder shopping list looks good. ? I would encourage you to consider an RL250 or the Al-Ko dust collector system instead of RL200. ? I¡¯d consider alternatives to the FW950 for all the reasons mentioned by Lucky. ? I don¡¯t know what an FB190 is, but if you¡¯re looking for a bandsaw, the newer 24¡± machines from a number of suppliers are all basically the same IMO - minor variations, everyone chasing maximum resaw capacity. ? Felder used to OEM ACM bandsaws, now they make their own. ? Edgebanding machines are temperamental beasts and if you¡¯re thinking of going into cabinet production full time, I¡¯d encourage you to buy from a vendor who provides local support with 24 hour on-call service (which Felder does not have). ? John Ferandin (here on FOG) has recent experience with the Forka and might comment - trust his comments, he¡¯s not easily bullshitted. ? Before you settle on the FAT300, have a good long look at Barth (available from Rangate or Martin). ? I have the Barth 500V and it¡¯s my constant companion in the shop, even though I choked hard on the price, it¡¯s worth it IMO.

Tooling your equipment is another deep subculture, and worthy of lots of thought and discussion before you buy. ? Mac¡¯s Airtight Clamps are a ¡°must have¡± IMO. ? There are better alternatives to the Felder parallel fence system from Brian and Mac (both here on FOG).? Aigner¡¯s catalog will drain your bank account quickly unless you know more about how you¡¯re going to work, you¡¯ll be convinced you need everything they make. ? Rangate is a good source for shaper tooling and other goodies including Barth, Zuani, and they are very service oriented.

Harry at Felder is a terrific guy, and is one of a select few customer-facing people at Felder who actually knows woodworking and can convey the benefits of the equipment to an honest woodworker.? He is one hell of a nice guy, but a sales person nonetheless. ? Do your homework.

If you have specific questions on equipment or options, sing out - there are plenty of great resources right here on FOG to help spend your money.

David Best

On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:05 PM, David Kumm davekumm@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



--
Dave & Marie Davies

318-219-7868


Re: Hello all,

 

Glen,

I think heating is definitely needed in the workshop in the cold climate, not only for the comfort, but also for rust prevention, you do not want to see rust on the cast iron table on your expensive beautiful machines.

Felder machines do have the good value for the price, I bought AD741, FB510 and KF700S in the past 12 months.

For big slider, commissioning service is needed. I had Felder commissioned my KF700SP, but I am not 100% satisfied, cause the sliding table's height in relation to the cast iron top is not even within Felder's own standard (.012 inch). After Felder technician left, I used 3 dial indicators (David Best's method) to check the sliding table's height in different positions, the worst was .022 inch.?

Eventually, I spent one entire weekend about 20 hours to re-adjust the cast iron table and sliding table, now it is within .007 inch higher than cast iron table on the entire length, I probably need a few more hours to get it within .005 inch, so I stopped at .007 inch. It was a frustrating and exhausted weekend, but I am glad I did it. Again, I got instruction from David Best. Without his detailed instruction, there is no way I could accomplish it cause I had no experience at all.

My point is you cannot rely 100% on Felder technician. I had emailed Felder technican a few times after taking delivery of the machine, NEVER EVER got prompt response, a few times, no response at all. But the Felder sales guy whom I bought machines from is very helpful, he always tries to help me get the answer.?

The good thing is you can get swift response from people like David Best, Brain Lamb and other very knowledgeable folks in this awesome forum.

James


On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 8:16 PM, GLEN chris3645@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?

I would like to thank everyone of you for all the information you have provide me . I have read every post very carefully and ended up with 6 pages of notes and hundred of questions. I have learned more her in 24 hours than i have in the last three months. I have a very hard time with details i get out of salesmen, I do know their final agenda. ?

So if you don't mind im going to ask you guys & you Julie a lot of questions.

Im going to work with one machine at a time so my pea sized brain does not explode and take more notes from you.
so before i start with my first machine i have generic things to mention.

for the one that said it will be fun spending someone else s money or something along that line, Please do! you all have hundred times or more knowledge thank I do. This is a one time thing for me and i will make mistakes, I am not going to be able and just run out and drop another 20k on a machine of I make that mistake.

my space:2800 Sf about 300 sf of office i really don't need Ill use one room for old stile drafting table and to set up a space for my CAD system the othe office i guess will be a crash pad when i cant get home because of snow and the rest I guess to store samples and finished product. what i like about the building is i have the high ceilings which is very hard to get up here

My Budget Its not unlimited. I have saved for over ten years for this day, that said I have 200k for this project not including the building.
That is for everything from the big tools down to the countersink bits. my girlfriend was not very happy when i told her100k if she findsout its twice that? will probably be living in my shop.

So my first question

Felder:I like Felder i think they make a good machine for the price, a little more machine than i really need but if i actually ever make anything to sell and sell it i want to have a little more machine than i think I need.

I plan to have Felder deliver install/set up and run the machines at my shop. althoiugh the extra cost i think it is well worth it for me buying machines i am not familer with. I am planing on doing a service contract with Felder yearly or bi yearly () the say they offer it but i don't know the costs yet) My biggest concern is service and parts and the timeline.... One of you mention this

and one last thing for now before I bore you to death

Electronics They scare me, I know they have come along way and are a lot better but in my building which will not be conditioned all the time can get in the mid teens in the winter. Felder doesn't seen there is a big issue but I do Thats my first and biggest question from you that work in areas that get this cold. I have started to look in to a systen to heat the machines? internally but that wont do any good for the cnc data screens.

Thank you all
Glen
and its 19 deg F tonight



?


-----Original Message-----
From: David Davies myfinishingtouch@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
To: felder-woodworking <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com>
 Sent: Wed, Nov 30, 2016 3:27 pm
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Hello all,

?
Glen,
? Something you'll want to consider is support...this forum is an excellent source of support for Felder equipment.? Felder may or may not monitor the forum but if you're having issues with your machines this forum can get you answers.
Dave

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Joe dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?
Glen,

Don't get obsessed with buying the best machine available. ?

It does not make sense to buy a Martin t27 shaper if you are a hobbyist.? You will be paying for features you will not take advantage of.? If you have a shop with multiple employees running long hours you get the maximum benefit from a very heavy duty large machine.? Some of the value of Martin is in the ability to run hour after hour day after day, if you run your shaper a few hours a week you may not need the extra robustness. That said, if I had the space and money was not an issue I would love to have a t27 with tenoning table powered power feeder arm.

One nice thing about heavy robust machines that most here will hopefully never learn about first hand is that a heavy machine is much better when something goes wrong.? If you are spinning a heavy cutter on a shaper and a knife breaks resulting is an unbalanced spinning object a light machine which worked well with a balanced cutter may start oscillating and the operator will have less time to shut everything down before something fails.? While it is possible to spin a 40 pound 12" cutter on a single trunnion f700z it is much better to use a Profile 45 in the event that something goes wrong for safety reasons.

I took delivery of a Profile 45z X-motion in March to replace my f700z and am very happy.? I especially love X-motion control.? Also, recognize that machines with elaborate control systems may have a limited lifespan.? What do you do when your touch screen goes out on a 10 year old machine?? Look at the value of used CNC routers to see what I mean.? I look for machines with generic modular control system ?components.? Felder uses such parts and has been good at helping me repair older Felder machines.? In 2009 Felder's service department provided updated electronics for my year 2000 cf731p combination machine.? It now has modular electronics that can be easily repaired. ?

Joe in New Orleans?

On Nov 30, 2016, at 4:45 AM, 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?
I¡¯ll second Dave Kumm¡¯s comment that there isn¡¯t a single brand that is best-in-breed at everything. ? My shop is mostly Felder (Kappa 400 xMotion, Profil 45, Dual 51, RL160), and I have owned various Felder machines since I slipped into the deep end of the pool in 2001. ? Felder isn¡¯t perfect - no company is. ? I have also been a Martin dealer.? While I respect Martin's in-house machines, they are not without their own quirks, and some of their machines are made by other companies. ? No company covers the equipment territory with all best-in-breed machines. ? Even Marin has disgruntled customers. ? ?

If you have NO BUDGET CONSTRAINTS, you can do better than Felder in almost every category, but not from a single supplier IMO. ? If, on the other hand, you¡¯re looking for exceptional value from a single source, Felder is a great choice for several categories of equipment. ? Felder is also a progressive growth company, comes up with terrific innovations from time to time (Silent Power cutterhead on their J/P¡¯s to name just one), and invests heavily in R&D and manufacturing. ? In contrast, the Martin factory looks like a re-tooled tank manufacturing facility from WWII, and they have had their share management turmoil the past 10 years. ? I don¡¯t want to dis Martin, they do make great machines, but they come at a price, and not everything in their line is on par.

Your Felder shopping list looks good. ? I would encourage you to consider an RL250 or the Al-Ko dust collector system instead of RL200. ? I¡¯d consider alternatives to the FW950 for all the reasons mentioned by Lucky. ? I don¡¯t know what an FB190 is, but if you¡¯re looking for a bandsaw, the newer 24¡± machines from a number of suppliers are all basically the same IMO - minor variations, everyone chasing maximum resaw capacity. ? Felder used to OEM ACM bandsaws, now they make their own. ? Edgebanding machines are temperamental beasts and if you¡¯re thinking of going into cabinet production full time, I¡¯d encourage you to buy from a vendor who provides local support with 24 hour on-call service (which Felder does not have). ? John Ferandin (here on FOG) has recent experience with the Forka and might comment - trust his comments, he¡¯s not easily bullshitted. ? Before you settle on the FAT300, have a good long look at Barth (available from Rangate or Martin). ? I have the Barth 500V and it¡¯s my constant companion in the shop, even though I choked hard on the price, it¡¯s worth it IMO.

Tooling your equipment is another deep subculture, and worthy of lots of thought and discussion before you buy. ? Mac¡¯s Airtight Clamps are a ¡°must have¡± IMO. ? There are better alternatives to the Felder parallel fence system from Brian and Mac (both here on FOG).? Aigner¡¯s catalog will drain your bank account quickly unless you know more about how you¡¯re going to work, you¡¯ll be convinced you need everything they make. ? Rangate is a good source for shaper tooling and other goodies including Barth, Zuani, and they are very service oriented.

Harry at Felder is a terrific guy, and is one of a select few customer-facing people at Felder who actually knows woodworking and can convey the benefits of the equipment to an honest woodworker.? He is one hell of a nice guy, but a sales person nonetheless. ? Do your homework.

If you have specific questions on equipment or options, sing out - there are plenty of great resources right here on FOG to help spend your money.

David Best

On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:05 PM, David Kumm davekumm@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



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Dave & Marie Davies

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