--- In emcoV10lathe@..., "almus_kenter" <akenter@...> wrote:

Don't feel bad. (I am a physicist too) .

O.k., new plan. Imagine your an electron........

Nevermind. :)

--- In emcoV10lathe@..., Richard Kleinhenz <richk@...> wrote:

I've got the VFD working correctly and sending the right power and

frequency to the lathe. But I can't get the safety interlock circuit
to work. I had to hook up the motor on the primary side of C1. At
first I had it after E1 - that makes the most sense. I could never
get any voltage on the output side of C1. The door switch works, and
I could sense voltage at all the (accessible) right places. Actually,
maybe what I did was not correct... I measured between anywhere on
the circuit to ground. Since the circuit is between 2 phases, I would
not notice a break.

Does anyone else have the 'Special Safety' version? Or understand

the circuitry really well?

I don't have amanual, so I'm not sure what constitutes a Special
Safety version. Mine does have the extra yellow and red master kill /
lockout switch above the regular 5 position barrel switch. That would
be the switch labelled A1 on the diagram. If you want to retain the
door interlock, you could disconnect it from the existing circuit and
route your "START" signal through the door switch. If the door switch
is interupted, it won't go.

I had to wire the switch differently, since my VFD required a START

signal, and only REVERSE signal - open circuit is forward. I just
took off all the jumpers and straps from the B1 switch, and wired it
up to give me the signals I needed. I am very grateful for the advise
and the diagrams posted that got me thinking in the right direction.

I also now see the need for the breaking resistor. Without that the

motor idles to a stop. Unless there are some settings in the VFD I
have not set properly yet.

What sort of ramp-up speeds are you setting? I noticed that when I

set the acc. time too short it would trip when going to high speed on
the fastest gearing.

I leave the acceleration set at about 4 to 5 seconds, and with the
resistor, I run 1 second stop ramp unless I'm trying to thread to a
shoulder, then I set it tighter.

The accel ramp shouldn't kick the drive out easily. You may have your
faceplate amp rating set too low, or you may need to allow it a bit
more overcurrent on ramp. There are 100's of things to play with in
the settings, so make sure you know how to restore the default
settings and then have at it. They're pretty hard to hurt...

I've got the VFD working correctly and sending the right power and frequency to the lathe. But I can't get the safety interlock circuit to work. I had to hook up the motor on the primary side of C1. At first I had it after E1 - that makes the most sense. I could never get any voltage on the output side of C1. The door switch works, and I could sense voltage at all the (accessible) right places. Actually, maybe what I did was not correct... I measured between anywhere on the circuit to ground. Since the circuit is between 2 phases, I would not notice a break.

Does anyone else have the 'Special Safety' version? Or understand the circuitry really well?

I had to wire the switch differently, since my VFD required a START signal, and only REVERSE signal - open circuit is forward. I just took off all the jumpers and straps from the B1 switch, and wired it up to give me the signals I needed. I am very grateful for the advise and the diagrams posted that got me thinking in the right direction.

I also now see the need for the breaking resistor. Without that the motor idles to a stop. Unless there are some settings in the VFD I have not set properly yet.

What sort of ramp-up speeds are you setting? I noticed that when I set the acc. time too short it would trip when going to high speed on the fastest gearing.

--
Regards,
Rich
================================
Richard Kleinhenz


================================

I'm inching closer I think. I think I will need to jumper the user-interlock at the VFD. I need to wire the motor after E1. The signals my VFD wants are a little different from yours, so I have to work through the switches. I think I'll just take everything off the switches, and wire up the controls I need using the connection scheme from the manual. Testing before hooking up the motor ;-)

--
Regards,
Rich
================================
Richard Kleinhenz


================================

--- In emcoV10lathe@..., Richard Kleinhenz <richk@...> wrote:

Dave,
what wiring did your machine have? Mine is the 'Safety Electric'

wiring. I'm still trying to understand it. I'm a physicist, this
stuff is not totally alien to me, I just don't quite understand little
boxes that say 'low voltage release'. Trying to understand items like
c1 with terminals a/b and 13/14

If I wire the motor directly to the VFD, this whole circuit won't be

working, right? Since I won't have high voltage on it? My VFD wants
a low volt. signal though passed through an EMO switch... I am not
piecing it all together. I know I can get the functionality, I know I
can jumper that signal at the VFD side. Need to stare at it more I guess


There is a diagram in the pictures section, and a text file in the
files section. Figuring out the pinout on the barrel switch can be a
pain, and they are not all wired the same. It would be easier to
bypass it all, but you must insure that motor leads U2, V2, & W2 are
disconnected from the barrel switch. Otherwise, the position of your
switch can cause the motor to run in high speed.

Most VFD's provide the low voltage control circuit. I'm not familiar
with the little Rockwell drives, but it's often labelled Vcmn as it
uses the negative side. If you don't have a manual, there may be one
on the Allen Bradley website.

--- In emcoV10lathe@..., Richard Kleinhenz <richk@...> wrote:

Dave,
what wiring did your machine have? Mine is the 'Safety Electric'

wiring. I'm still trying to understand it. I'm a physicist, this
stuff is not totally alien to me, I just don't quite understand little
boxes that say 'low voltage release'. Trying to understand items like
c1 with terminals a/b and 13/14

Don't feel bad. (I am a physicist too) . Read over the VFD manual;
their features are very similar. It took me a bit of time looking
over the connections. Dave's diagram was very useful. Check your
connections and switching with a VOM (You are an experimentalist
right?). I was very wary hooking everything up.
At work I am a bit more cavalier 'cause if I fry
a 300.00 piece of electronics, the cost is in the noise, but
if I burn out my VFD or my motor, I will be hurting.

Keep in mind that your rotary switch may have
different jumpers wired in

My VFD is a Westinghouse-TECO, but I think they
are all very similar.

-Almus

Dave,
what wiring did your machine have? Mine is the 'Safety Electric' wiring. I'm still trying to understand it. I'm a physicist, this stuff is not totally alien to me, I just don't quite understand little boxes that say 'low voltage release'. Trying to understand items like c1 with terminals a/b and 13/14

If I wire the motor directly to the VFD, this whole circuit won't be working, right? Since I won't have high voltage on it? My VFD wants a low volt. signal though passed through an EMO switch... I am not piecing it all together. I know I can get the functionality, I know I can jumper that signal at the VFD side. Need to stare at it more I guess

--
Regards,
Rich
================================
Richard Kleinhenz


================================

Yup, same thing - Rockwell Automation calls them 'snubber resistors' - just there to bleed off the emf generated by the decelerating rotor. Sounds like a good idea to use :-)

On 4/8/2006 at 7:19 PM davedamouth wrote:

--- In emcoV10lathe@..., Richard Kleinhenz <richk@...> wrote:
Not sure on the terminology your manual is using. All but the very
cheapest vfd's can usually use a braking resistor. It's a large
resistor that will attach to an extra set of terminals. Allows for
much faster deceleration than just the drive transistors. At 30 rpm,
a 1/2 second braking ramp will stop the spindle in 1/4 revolution.

I use them wherever possible. If something is going wrong, I want the
spindle to stop quickly. Even changing the work in and out of the
chuck goes quicker when you don't need to wait for it to stop.

--
Regards,
Rich
================================
Richard Kleinhenz


================================

--- In emcoV10lathe@..., Richard Kleinhenz <richk@...> wrote:

Are you using what's referred to as a 'snubber resistor' in my VFD

manual? Had you tried without that and found you needed it, or is it
something that is just generally recommended and should always be used?

Not sure on the terminology your manual is using. All but the very
cheapest vfd's can usually use a braking resistor. It's a large
resistor that will attach to an extra set of terminals. Allows for
much faster deceleration than just the drive transistors. At 30 rpm,
a 1/2 second braking ramp will stop the spindle in 1/4 revolution.

I use them wherever possible. If something is going wrong, I want the
spindle to stop quickly. Even changing the work in and out of the
chuck goes quicker when you don't need to wait for it to stop.

Thanks, Dave, seems like the right thoughts went through my head, and I have a fairly reasonable understanding of the issues and functionality. I fully realize that with the low-low speed thought using a wired-up potentiometer I lose a lot of power. I figured this would allow me to stop on a dime when cutting a thread against a shoulder. I am not too worried about power there. But 27 RPM is pretty slow, maybe it's not an issue.

Are you using what's referred to as a 'snubber resistor' in my VFD manual? Had you tried without that and found you needed it, or is it something that is just generally recommended and should always be used?

--
Regards,
Rich
================================
Richard Kleinhenz


================================

--- In emcoV10lathe@..., Richard Kleinhenz <richk@...> wrote:

Simplest thing would be to wire the VFD output into the S11 input.

The negatives would be that fast switching off and on may reset the
VFD. Let's say I try not to do that. But when I switch from off to
speed 1 and then speed 2 don't I do exactly that, as far as the VFD is
concerned? Don't know whether the rotary switch B1 is make before
break or what.

Your VFD is not going to like that. Each speed seting on the motor has
a different amp draw, and different speed. There may be a wiring
diagram inside the cover of the elecrical box that will help.

The advantage would be that I can wire up a potentiometer for

external speed control to the VFD to be able to go down to nearly
zero. Max would be 60 Hz.

Really low hz are not a good idea. HP falls off linearly below 60 hz.
If 60 hz is 1.5 hp, 30 hz = .75 hp. Above 60 hz, hp remains fairly
flat, so 100 hz = 1.5 hp.

If I wire up as shown in the posted diagram, the logic goes back to

the VFD and presumably there are no switching issues. But with my VFD
at least I lose the capability to control the speed via a
potentiometer. The downside is that I don't know if the motor is
rated for 120Hz for extended times.

Seems to work fine. As you've noted, you won't use 2000 rpm very
often. The motor was designed to run 3400 rpm, which is all it is
turning. With the stock wiring, 3400 rpm is speed 2, 1700 is speed 1.

I understand that this wiring uses all poles and has more torque at

high speed rather than use only every other pole for high speed with
the original wiring. Don't know whether torque at high speed really
is an issue of course - I doubt it.

The wiring suggested actually uses only the 1700 rpm circuit, and lets
the vfd overspeed the 1700 rpm circuit to 3400. The purpose for using
the low speed circuit is to provide the best power across all
settings. The low speed circuit does provide more torque, but as the
frequency is increased beyond 60 hz, the vfd auomatically reduces the
torque. So there is no net gain in high speed torque.

However, if you were to use the 3400 rpm circuit, you would have
slightly more power at 3400 rpm. 3400 rpm would be 60 hz, so o
achieve 1700 rpm you would dial it down to 30 hz. At 30 hz, you would
have 50% of your original power.

I have to say I don't fully understand the rationale for the 2nd

speed, or how it is used in general. It seems to really give 1
distinct extra speed, 2200 RPM. Do you normally turn on speed1 (elec.
switch) and is speed2 just there for a finishing cut or polishing for
the convenience of not having to switch gears? And the 2200 would
have the highest startup current draw of course, probably the worst
thing for a VFD, switching quickly through speed1 to speed2.

Doesn't seem to mind. I'm using a braking resisor, so if you move
slow enough, it almost stops from speed 1 turning off before speed 2
starts. Still works just fine.

Another option you may want to try: Put the stock switch in speed 1.
Pull the switch handle off so you're not tempted to use it. Then
mount your vfd externally and run it like you want. The two items of
concern that I worry about:
1. If you ever accidentally get the barrel switch into speed 2, you
risk trying to turn the motor 6800rpm. This would be bad.
2. The little buttons on the VFD are a very small target to be
searching for when the machine is making thunk-thunk noises as it
tries to destroy itself, your work, or you. I always prefer external
switching on a VFD. At a minimum, find a way to put an E-Stop switch
wihin easy reach.

Good Luck!
Dave

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OK here is another data point.

I have a V10P and a Super-11.

The milling column attachment bolts appear
to be the same; same size and same spacing.

Both machines are "green" vintage.

-Almus

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Sorry I should have been clearer. Yes, does the bracket mount directly w/o redrilling, and is the column diameter the same. Also whether the column to lathe distance is the same, which would be a function of the bracket.

On 4/4/2006 at 11:24 AM almus_kenter wrote:

--- In emcoV10lathe@..., Richard Kleinhenz <richk@...> wrote:

Does anyone know whether the V10 milling column and head will fit

the Super 11?

--

Do you want to know if the bolt spacing is the same on
the lathe bed? ie the bolts that hold the mill to the lathe
bed?

--
Regards,
Rich
================================
Richard Kleinhenz


================================

--- In emcoV10lathe@..., Richard Kleinhenz <richk@...> wrote:

Does anyone know whether the V10 milling column and head will fit

the Super 11?

--

Do you want to know if the bolt spacing is the same on
the lathe bed? ie the bolts that hold the mill to the lathe
bed?

-A

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