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Batteries


 

On Monday 03 March 2025 09:39:09 am Donald H Locker via groups.io wrote:
Have you ever tried the glow plug test on a Li AA cell?
That bit with the glow plug was back when I was in high school, *MANY* decades ago. Lithium AA cells weren't around back then...


--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin


 

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Andy,

The cell or battery is charged, for example, for a minute then discharged for a second and continuously repeat until charged.

I have seen it apply to different cell types.

Bertho

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Andy via groups.io

There was a long series of letters to the editor in one of the magazines about how to improve charging.

One thing that appeared to have helped was to have about 10% reverse charge during the process.

How does one give a cell a "reverse charge"?? What does it even mean?

?

It implies doing a partial DIScharge first.? Is that it?? I'm assuming it does not mean to discharge until the voltage reaches 10% negative, but like I said, I don't understand.

?

Does it help only with "non-rechargeable" dry cells?? Or does it apply to rechargeables too?

?

Andy

?


 

On Sun, Mar 2, 2025 at 02:18 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
The YT channel "Project Farm" does all sorts of comparison tests on a lot of stuff, and he did one video comparing different brands, some of which I'd never heard of. He arrived at the conclusion that lithium was the way to go, that they didn't leak, and offered better performance than any of the alkaline cells that were out there.
Now by "lithium" - do you mean the NON-rechargeable, super-long-life lithium 1.5 V cells?? The ones that cost $20 for a pack of four AA's?
?
I use those for the outside thermometer so it won't freeze, but I reserve it for that only because they cost so much.
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If I'm not mistaken, they are guaranteed to have at least 10 or 15 years of shelf life.
?
It is unfortunate that there are so many cells and batteries named "lithium" these days.? Some electronics insists "NO lithium batteries!" but of course they are talking about the lithium-ion rechargeables (which are nowhere near 1.5 V), not the non-rechargeable lithium cells (which are about 1.5 V).
?
Andy
?


 

On Sun, Mar 2, 2025 at 02:18 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
These days if you look at the battery rack in the front of a Wal-Mart near the registers, it's pretty much more Eveready than anything else.
Interesting.? That's not what I see here.? (I stopped going to Walmart during early COVID and mostly haven't been back.)? These days I see tons of Duracell and few of others.? I'm sure each retailer has their preferences.? Less supply-demand, more what they want to put on their shelves, as long as it moves.
?
Andy
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On Sun, Mar 2, 2025 at 10:50 AM, wn4isx wrote:
They started out wet but the electrolyte was replaced with magnesium dioxide and they became 'dry.'
I thought that was the key difference between Leclanche cells and regular (non-Leclanche) dry cells.
?
Andy
?


wn4isx
 

The Everready >primary< AA and AAA and 9V lithiums do not have a drop down regulator.
Just disassembled a dead AA and 9V.
They are pricey but probably worth it for several reasons...
For test gear I seldom use, the 10 year life expectancy means the test gear will probably work when I need it, and, if the lithium goes flat, it won't leak.
For devices like our blood pressure machine, used everyday, a set of lithiums last about 3 times as long as alkylines with no risk of leakage.
For the flashlights in the cars, given the 10 year life expectancy, I can count on having them work when I? need them.
My primary reason for adopting them was lack of leaking and no corrosion, and I pay through the nose for the cells / batteries.
?


 

On Sun, Mar 2, 2025 at 07:41 AM, Bertho wrote:

It appears to me that the alkaline batteries have gotten worse.? Presumably thinner shell to save money and increased performance.

I don't know, but I expect they all use crimped seals of? one form or another, and the quality of those seals (a manufacturing step where they can save money) surely comes into play.? Even if they use the same cell wall thickness, if the seal fails, it's no good.
?
They are not likely to inspect them after sealing them.
?
I remember a story some 20 years ago, how car batteries from the same "American" name brand companies suddenly became noticeably lighter, because they started using significantly thinner lead.? I think it coincided with using a different Chinese supplier for the American name brand.
?
Andy
?


 

I don't know if this is relevant.? ?But one of the stated characteristics of Leclanche cells was an initial open-circuit voltage of about 1.4 V, which rapidly falls off.? Whereas carbon/zinc dry cells are supposed to be a little above 1.5 V, and all the ones I played with, measured close to 1.6 V when new.
?
And I still wonder why the only person in the world I have ever seen call them Leclanche cells, is here in this group.? Nobody else ever calls them that.? Why is that?? Is it because few of the people I know are chemists?? But surely many of them are engineers, and none of the engineers I know ever called them that.? Even some chemists don't call them Leclanche either.
?
I have your word, or I have my years of experience, to go on here.? Which do you think I am inclined to believe?

There was a long series of letters to the editor in one of the magazines about how to improve charging.
One thing that appeared to have helped was to have about 10% reverse charge during the process.
How does one give a cell a "reverse charge"?? What does it even mean?
?
It implies doing a partial DIScharge first.? Is that it?? I'm assuming it does not mean to discharge until the voltage reaches 10% negative, but like I said, I don't understand.
?
Does it help only with "non-rechargeable" dry cells?? Or does it apply to rechargeables too?
?
Andy
?


 

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Question about the Lithium AA cells - I know they use a little buck regulator to get the voltage down to 1.5V (nominal) but that also means that they are current-limited. Finding out the current limit on the advertised products it "deucedly" difficult. Have you ever tried the glow plug test on a Li AA cell?

Many TIA,
Donald.

On 3/2/25 14:37, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. via groups.io wrote:
On Sunday 02 March 2025 01:49:59 am Andy via groups.io wrote:
On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 01:30 PM, wn4isx wrote:

****The "less likely to leak" has become a joke, all the major brands now
leak long before their use by date.
****

[snip]

The YT channel "Project Farm" does all sorts of comparison tests on a lot of stuff,  and he did one video comparing different brands,  some of which I'd never heard of.  He arrived at the conclusion that lithium was the way to go,  that they didn't leak,  and offered better performance than any of the alkaline cells that were out there.



 

On Sunday 02 March 2025 01:49:59 am Andy via groups.io wrote:
On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 01:30 PM, wn4isx wrote:


****The "less likely to leak" has become a joke, all the major brands now
leak long before their use by date.
****
If rumors are to be believed (I know, there's a major problem with that), then some brands are considerably better than others in this respect.

I have been warned never to buy name-brand "X" because they almost always leak, whereas name-brand "Y" rarely does.? I have heard that said by several people, which suggests there is some truth to it.

At the same time, though, I would expect that it is a "moving target", and what was the best advice 5 or 10 years ago, is probably meaningless today, as the name brands frequently change their suppliers.

It used to be simpler when we knew things were manufactured domestically by the company with the name on the box, by?the same factories and people over long periods of time.? But I digress.
That may be changing, we'll see.

I went through a period where I tried all sorts of brands. Dollar store brands, etc. And I arrive at the conclusion that the name brands like Duracell and Eveready would last longer than any of those other ones. Yeah, you can get a whole big honkin' box of those other ones fairly cheaply, but who wants to be bothered with changing them more often?

I used to favor Duracell, but they had a period of time where they seemed to be more prone to leakage. These days if you look at the battery rack in the front of a Wal-Mart near the registers, it's pretty much more Eveready than anything else. OTOH, I have a couple of Duracell D size that I pulled out of a magliite flashlight after realizing that they'd been in there close to a decade and a half, There's a date of "MAR 2013" on them And they still test good!

The YT channel "Project Farm" does all sorts of comparison tests on a lot of stuff, and he did one video comparing different brands, some of which I'd never heard of. He arrived at the conclusion that lithium was the way to go, that they didn't leak, and offered better performance than any of the alkaline cells that were out there.

One time when I was still in high school I picked up a "glow plug" at a hobby shop, the sort of thing you'd use for a model airplane engine. And just for the heck of it I connected it up to a AA alkaline cell, and sure enough that little heating element glowed. So I got curious and measured the current. I was really surprised to see that it was over an amp! I had no idea that you could pull that much out of one of those....
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin


 

On Sunday 02 March 2025 01:29:11 am Andy via groups.io wrote:
On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 04:03 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

The only place I've ever seen AAAA being used was in laser pointers. And
you can get 'em by siassembling a 9V, cheaper than buying them as AAAA...
My wife has something that uses one.? I think it goes with her tablet.? From about 5 years ago.

I got replacement AAAA cells at either CVS or the local grocery store.? They were relatively cheap at about $3 for a packet of 2 or 4.? Maybe that isn't cheap by everyone's standards, but it was good enough for me.? I think it would cost more to buy a pair of 9V batteries and cut them open, if that is really where you got yours from.
You don't need to cut anything open. Just grab one corner of the sheet metal where it joins with a pair of needle nosed pliers, and twist. Keep going like that and eventually you peel all of the metal off. Early 9V batteries had six smallish rectangular cells stacked, but the current alkaline ones have six AAAA cells standing up.

I don't have anything around here that uses them. Some stuff here uses AAA, which is annoying enough. Going from AAA to AA you get almost 3 times the power out of it...

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin


 

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One more battery detail:

Pagers (beepers) used N-cells and later AA-cels.? Mercury cells were popular with the much longer life.

I collected dead cells and recovered the mercury that I then refined.

Designing the RF and IF sections was not easy.? From the single cell, there was a linear regulator so only 0.975V was available at a couple of mA.

Bertho


wn4isx
 

On Sun, Mar 2, 2025 at 10:48 AM, wn4isx wrote:
I wrote:
They started out dry but the electrolyte was replaced with magnesium dioxide and they became 'dry.'
That should have been?
They started out wet but the electrolyte was replaced with magnesium dioxide and they became 'dry.'
?
I'm still on codeine cough syrup and it sure shows. Glad I don't have to drive anywhere today.


wn4isx
 

Nobody but engineers and chemists called them by their proper name.
Leclanché cells were the first practical "dry cell." They started out dry but the electrolyte was replaced with magnesium dioxide and they became 'dry.' [damp really] Of course "as deployed" they were quite different from the original and featured additions/modifications by several people.
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https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/zinc-carbon-battery
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I took a class in the "physics of electrical cells" in 'university' and learned the proper name.
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Most of us called them carbon-zinc batteries being ignorant that a battery is a collection of cells.
I cringe when I hear people call a "D" cell a battery.
?
You can actually recharge carbon-zinc/Leclanché cells. They don't recharge all that well, the only place I could see the process being worthwhile was for a night watchman, use one set and recharge the other.
Going from a vague memory, each recharge lost about 5% of capacity. Typically recharging ended when the process ate through the zinc shell.
?
There was a long series of letters to the editor in one of the magazines about how to improve charging.
One thing that appeared to have helped was to have about 10% reverse charge during the process.
?
Everready [or one of the battery companies] actually sold a commercial charger.
I don't think you can recharge alkaline cells at all. even charging the carbon-zinc was a loss leader.
?
The university class was interesting because it helped me understand "Primary batteries are burning metal to produce electricity." Not exactly accurate but it gets the idea across. We visited Oak Ridge and saw a liquid sodium battery. Good energy to weight ratio but molten sodium is pretty energetic if there is a leak.
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At the time, silver-cadmium had the best, as in highest energy to weight ratio, they were prone to memory just like nickle-cadmium but handled temperature extremes better. Of course they were somewhere so far beyond obscene expensive only the military and NASA could use them. The US Navy OSCAR series used them. The Nike' Zeus missile defense missiles would have also used them.?
[Been to one Nike' Zeus as they demolished it. Interesting site.]?
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Note: The Navy OSCAR and amateur Oscar only share names and have nothing else but being satellites in common.
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?
??
?


 

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It appears to me that the alkaline batteries have gotten worse.? Presumably thinner shell to save money and increased performance.

It also appears that the free carbon-zinc batteries from China leak less.? They do not push the life/performance issue.

Regardless, I have switched to rechargeable Enelope cells.? I have not had a leak yet after many years.

Bertho

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Andy via groups.io
Sent: 2 March, 2025 1:50
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [electronics101] Batteries

?

On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 01:30 PM, wn4isx wrote:

The "less likely to leak" has become a joke, all the major brands now leak long before their use by date.

If rumors are to be believed (I know, there's a major problem with that), then some brands are considerably better than others in this respect.

?

I have been warned never to buy name-brand "X" because they almost always leak, whereas name-brand "Y" rarely does.? I have heard that said by several people, which suggests there is some truth to it.

?

At the same time, though, I would expect that it is a "moving target", and what was the best advice 5 or 10 years ago, is probably meaningless today, as the name brands frequently change their suppliers.

?

It used to be simpler when we knew things were manufactured domestically by the company with the name on the box, by?the same factories and people over long periods of time.? But I digress.

?

Andy

?


 

On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 01:30 PM, wn4isx wrote:
The "less likely to leak" has become a joke, all the major brands now leak long before their use by date.
If rumors are to be believed (I know, there's a major problem with that), then some brands are considerably better than others in this respect.
?
I have been warned never to buy name-brand "X" because they almost always leak, whereas name-brand "Y" rarely does.? I have heard that said by several people, which suggests there is some truth to it.
?
At the same time, though, I would expect that it is a "moving target", and what was the best advice 5 or 10 years ago, is probably meaningless today, as the name brands frequently change their suppliers.
?
It used to be simpler when we knew things were manufactured domestically by the company with the name on the box, by?the same factories and people over long periods of time.? But I digress.
?
Andy
?


 

I've heard of "wet cells" versus "dry cells".? That Wikipedia article suggests that Leclanche cells would be called "wet cells" and were not the same as the normal "dry cells" that were commonly available in the USA before Alkalines.? It seems as if Leclanche cells petered out from common usage (in the USA) decades before Alkalines arrived and took over.
?
Andy
?


 

On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 01:30 PM, wn4isx wrote:
Up until alkaline cells replaced the Leclanché, the Leclanché was the standard "D" "C" "AA" 9V.
Really?? So what you're saying is that all the carbon/zinc batteries that everyone around here (USA) used for decades before Alkalines came out, were actually Leclanche cells.? Then why didn't they - why didn't ANYONE - ever call them that?
?
Was it strictly an eastern Kentucky thing where they were called Leclanche?
?
That's odd, the Wikipedia page about Leclanche cells does not seem to suggest that they were the common ordinary carbon/zinc batteries everyone used before Alkalines.? Are you sure you have that right?
?
Andy
?


 

On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 04:03 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
The only place I've ever seen AAAA being used was in laser pointers. And you can get 'em by siassembling a 9V, cheaper than buying them as AAAA...
My wife has something that uses one.? I think it goes with her tablet.? From about 5 years ago.
?
I got replacement AAAA cells at either CVS or the local grocery store.? They were relatively cheap at about $3 for a packet of 2 or 4.? Maybe that isn't cheap by everyone's standards, but it was good enough for me.? I think it would cost more to buy a pair of 9V batteries and cut them open, if that is really where you got yours from.
?
Andy
?


wn4isx
 

Nice! I've never met a flashlight I didn't fall in love with. I have some Soviet flashlights, varnished cardboard tubes and reflector and the glass has rough edges like it was snipped from window glass.
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A funny story about flashlights.

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Kentucky might be called "the land of caves." There are caves all over the place.

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Mammoth Cave, and private nearby caves, are famous.

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Floyd Collins was trapped in a cave and the coast to coast radio coverage mesmerized the nation. [he was an idiot, there was a back way out.]

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While I was born in Eastern Kentucky I lived in Central Kentucky from the tender age of 3 months on.

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When I was 6 the older boys talked me into exploring a cave under a mansion that was being torn down. We came to a large room with many tunnels going off in every direction.

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They brought me because I had 3 flashlights.

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In college a classmate was fascinated by the Underground Railroad and had diaries that mentioned how runaway slaves would use the caves in Central Kentucky as part of the underground railroad.

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According to her diaries, you could go from Versailles road (Kenland Race track) to Russell's cave underground.

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And nope never had the chance to go the full route, but I did go on parts and have no doubts in 1850 it was possible for a dedicated person to make it all the way.

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I've been in over a dozen private caves.

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[It's OK everyone knew I didn't have a lot of common sense anyway.]

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My wife is claustrophobic in a way that makes my acrophobia look like a mild dislike. I was shocked when she decided we were going to Carter Caves.

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She girded her loins and we went through all the guided cave tours. There is another cave that is self tour. You have to check in at the ranger station and they insist everyone in your party must have a flashlight.

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The lady was nice and said "We really like for people to have a spare flashlight."

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So I started pulling out flashlights and told her to say "when enough is enough."

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I had 20.

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My wife only had 6. [the slacker]

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The lady sort of freaked "We've never had anyone with that many flashlights!"

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I didn't have the heart to tell her I had spare bulbs and batteries. I might well die in a cave but it probably won't be in the dark.

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Don't get me wrong, I am not afraid of the dark, it's just I'm not a bat that works with echolocation, in my view of reality, God gave me eyes to use.

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I mentioned in another post how I'd swipe my Dad's WWII flashlight and hide in closets. I was less then clear. Yep I liked making light in the dark, but I could sit in the dark for hours and not worry in the least.

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I wish the same could be said for my poor mother. She eventually accepted "The doors are locked, the windows latched, he's in here someplace. I could curl up in places you'd swear no human child could possible fit.

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I also still have some luminescent plastic toy soldiers from back then that glow in the dark. I could sit there for hours and watch the light decay, then blast them with the flashlight and instant bright glow.?

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But one of my favorite all time memories was the look of utter disbelief as I started laying flashlights on the check out counter. The ranger was shocked speechless.

[I've often had that effect on people]

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Of course I have been caught without a flashlight a time or two when I needed one, really needed one.

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You change the fuel pump by feel in a 1968 VW bug at 3:00AM in the Red River Gorge Nature Preserve, on a moonless night, with nothing but starlight. Those 2 13mm nuts and hose clamps are soo much fun words fail me.

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[My wife is reading over my shoulder and just had a severe attack of the giggles. The wench.]

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Starlight is actually brighter then you might suppose .... after your eyes adjust. Not bright mind you, but you can sort of almost make out your hand.

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One time I changed the fuel pump with the light from an HP-35 sat to display all 8s for "maximum light." It was so much better then starlight.

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One might think I'd either have had flashlight or added an under the hood light. Nope, not that wise.

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I now carry 3 LED flashlights, spare batteries, have a LED light bar under the hood and in the trunk.

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Of course the chances of me being in Red River Gorge at 3:00AM are rather remote now that I'm 73 and the Gorge is filled with drunken druggies. I don't know enough people with enough firepower to make a 3:00AM pit stop safe.

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And changing the fuel pump in a modern car is no casual undertaking.

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Such is life.

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I made an "el cheapo" night vision device.

I picked up a new in the box Android phone "virtual reality headset."

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Now I have about as much use for a gaming accessory as I do a hard hit upside the head.

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But, you can carefully drill a hole so your camera phone lens can see out. Illuminate the dark area with IR LEDs and viola instant sort of night vision device. Of course there is zero depth perception. But, as proof of concept is was sort of neat, all the more so because the VR headset cost me all of $5. [I'm cheap.]

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And I have IR illuminators, boy do I have IR illuminators. A 60 X 60 aray that draws 2 amps. It's deep IR so you can't see it with the naked eye but your smart phone would love it.

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I also have a slew of surplus 30 IR LEDs mounted on a ring to go around a closed circuit TV camera lens.

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So I can flood an area with IR.

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A friend wants a night vision headset with a crossbow equipped with an IR laser pointer. Robert always was a tad strange.

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