On Tue, Mar 4, 2025 at 11:24 AM, Bertho wrote:

Andy,

When that type of performance is needed, it is a custom design project and not for the general public.

I do not expect the batteries will be replaced in my lifetime.

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I get that.

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But the problem is they are selling them in the AA, C, and D form-factors, where the expected voltage is 1.5 V, not 3.6 V.? That is a catastrophe waiting to happen.

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Andy

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On Tue, Mar 4, 2025 at 09:23 AM, Bertho wrote:

For the ultimate lithium battery (cell) see:

Darn!? All these alternate technologies!? With built-in ways to mess us up.

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Those Tadiran cells come in standard AA, C, and D form factors, but do NOT have the standard voltage.? Their nominal voltage in those form factors is 3.6V.? Now that's a million catastrophies just waiting to happen.

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THIS is the kind of thing that should never have happened.? Shame on them.

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Hopefully their very high cost will deter most people from using them in equipment designed to accept AA, C, or D dry cells.

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I also wonder why anyone would design equipment to accept 3.6V cells with AA, C, or D form factors.? Do traffic control equipment designers really do such a thing?? Or do they take the smart route and only use the alternate form factors?

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Andy

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I've ordered a set of 4 AA cells to see how they work.

Now these cells clearly have a circuit for charging and to step the 3.6ishV down to 1.5V.

IF they perform as advertised, they would be an extremely good value. I'll run some tests, voltage drop in a 4 cell incandescent flashlight versus time, charge them, leave them in the freezer and repeat the test. We seldom have temperatures below zero more often then once or twice a winter, but when we do, many cells / batteries roll over and play dead until they warm up.

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I have an older Panasonic digital camera that eats cells, it takes two AAs and you get about 50 photos with high quality alkaline. It will be interesting to see how these cells work in this camera.?

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I only keep the camera because we were able to remove the IR blocking filter and the camera takes very high quality IR photos. I fell in love with IR when I was 8 and Dad bought a roll of Kodak IR film to photograph some trees on land our family owns in Eastern KY. Trees with health problems can "scream" at you in IR (or BW with a deep red filter).

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We ended up cutting down about 50 diseased trees. I was too young to understand what was wrong.

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Normal digital cameras are moderately sensitive to IR, you can check an IR remote control with a camera phone, but they include IR blocking filters that knock down at least 90% of the near IR and all of the deeper IR, remove the filter and it's an entire new world, if you have an IR pass filter.

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The camera has a xenon flash that produces near zero IR. I have to illuminate an object with an array of IR LEDs.

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On Mon, Mar 3, 2025 at 01:35 PM, Andy wrote:

Are you sure?? I never saw anything suggesting that.? I can't say for certain, but I am fairly sure they do not.

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There were no electronic components in either the AA or 9 V. I've already taken them to the electronic recycle center or I'd post photos.

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It's been too many years since university, but, I may well have only heard Laclanche in the chemistry class and not EE classes. I can't say we studied cells/battery chemistry in any detail other then lead acid and NiCad-AgCad, the later two only for the specific use conditions that produce the memory effect.

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I have all my notes from university (please don't ask me why because I have no idea) and I've pulled the photocopy box with those notes, I'll go through them tomorrow before shredding them. I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone but a chemist refer to carbon-zinc as Laclanche. In a way I regret starting this part of the thread because it's created needless confusion. Unless one is taking a university chemistry of batteries, or a class on the history of batteries, I doubt anyone would hear or read the word Laclanche. I've created needless confusion. Just accept that "yes a carbon-zinc is a Laclanche, the chemistry has been improved, and today's carbon-zinc bears little resemblance to the laboratory prototype Mr. Laclanche invented. The liquid electrolyte was replaced with a damp mess of magnesium dioxide." I suspect chemists have found adding trace amounts of various chemicals has improved both the life, lowered the internal resistance, and changed the no load open circuit. I have no way of verifying the last sentence but it makes sense to me.

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However I am 100% certain there is no step down regulator on Everready primary 1.5V / 9V cells / batteries.

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I am interested in the statement in the everready PDF about protection against over current situations.

I expected to find a small thermal cutout, there wasn't one. I'm guessing the chemistry and construction limit the maximum current.

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I bet a primary lithium AA wouldn't heat a glow plug. I'll have to measure the maximum current I can draw from a lithium AA.

On Mon, Mar 3, 2025 at 01:21 PM, Bertho wrote:

Andy,

The cell or battery is charged, for example, for a minute then discharged for a second and continuously repeat until charged.

I have seen it apply to different cell types.

Bertho

I think they they added a resistor with a diode wired backwards to the main diode that diode provided V+

They specified a 10% reverse charge

Say you charge at 100mA, then you'd want to add a reverse charge of 10ma.

They fed raw AC to the diodes from a transformer. The entire circuit looked rather cheap and poorly thought out to me.

I'm going from memory here as?I never built the circuit, struck me as a waste of time as I had NiCads and lead acid.

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Wiki has an interesting article on lithium batteries, the data is somewhat at odds with the information in the book. Lithium cells/batteries is an extremely complex subject with a lot of what appear to be contradictions.

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I found this interesting...I had to sign for the primary lithiums I purchased at Wal-Mart at the first of the year. I guess I exceeded their non druggy user policy. It's as bad as when you need pseudoephedrine decongestant. In Kentucky there is a government tracking program, CASPER, that monitors /records what controlled substances you purchase. Given how oxy whatever is a plague in Eastern Kentucky I guess I see the need. I had no idea you could use primary lithium cells for some pretty evil purposes...?

Unused lithium batteries provide a convenient source of lithium metal for use as a??in??labs. Specifically, lithium metal reduces??and??to??in the??method, which employs solutions of alkali metals dissolved in anhydrous?.

Some jurisdictions have passed laws to restrict lithium battery sales or asked businesses to make voluntary restrictions in an attempt to help curb the creation of?. In 2004??stores were reported to limit the sale of disposable lithium batteries to three packages in Missouri and ....

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The book I referenced earlier in this thread is extremely useful.

Batteries in a Portable World - A Handbook on Rechargeable - Isidor Buchmann - 4, 2017

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On Mon, Mar 3, 2025 at 01:38 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

... I just recently did a battery swap, and found out that one place that used to carry Exide exclusively was carrying an assortment of brands, including some that were Korean. But not chinese.

Just to be clear about this -

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I wasn't talking about Chinese brands.? I was referring to American battery brands, with off-shore manufacturing.

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I first heard the story at a ham radio convention, from someone speaking of first-hand experience.? There was about a 20% weight reduction from one year to the next.? I'm sure it affected the battery's capabilities.? Later, I read confirmation from a couple of written references.? They all were sold by "trusted" American battery makers.? Yes, it was hearsay and might be part of the general fear of cheap Chinese imports, but who knows?

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Andy

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Link to Everready primary lithium cell data

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On Mon, Mar 3, 2025 at 09:39 AM, Donald H Locker wrote:

Question about the Lithium AA cells - I know they use a little buck regulator to get the voltage down to 1.5V (nominal) ...

Are you sure?? I never saw anything suggesting that.? I can't say for certain, but I am fairly sure they do not.

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I was wrong about their shelf life.? It says 20 years, not 10 or 15.

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Andy

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I think we are getting hung up on technical definitions that were not used in the real world.

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A carbon-zinc is classified as a Laclanche in all my battery books. [can't add the diacritical above the e in this font] While carbon-zinc and Laclanche are "the same." I suspect every since the first Laclanche was built in a lab, there has been constant improvements with minor differences in the open terminal battery voltage.

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From "Batteries in a Portable World - A Handbook on Rechargeable - Isidor Buchmann - 4, 2017"

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High specific energy and long storage have made alkaline more popular than the old zinc- carbon, which Georges Leclanché invented in 1868.

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Choices of Primary Batteries

Zinc-carbon, also known as carbon-zinc or the Leclanché battery, is one of the earliest and least expensive primary batteries. It delivers 1.5V and often come with consumer devices. The first zinc-carbon invented by Georges Leclanché in

1859 was wet.

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When I was a kid, the magazines all said we could count on a new carbon-zinc having an open circuit voltage of 1.5V.

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I suspect this was a bit optimistic but hobbyist accuracy in 1960 was probably a lot more hope then reality.

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I bought a set of carbon-zinc "D" cells at Kroger Sunday, cut one open (God what a mess) and it had the expected carbon rod down the center and a layer of zinc surrounded by a case of steel.

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With the exception of the outer case of steel, it looks just like the cells I opened back in 1958~1965. I'm assuming the damp black crud is magnesium dioxide, I don't have any way to verify that at the moment. [I wonder if you heat magnesium dioxide in a closed container if you could 'drive off' the oxygen leaving magnesium.

I can test magnesium but lighting it, if it burns brighter then the sun, it's magnesium.]

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The open circuit voltage was 1.61V.

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I suspect the magnesium dioxide probably has an additive. Again, I don't have an analytical chemistry lab handy, don't think the university will let me use one of their labs, and it's been so long since I've done any chemical analysis (class back in 1976) I wouldn't trust myself to make an accurate analysis.

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One thing the battery book stated was "all primary cells release hydrogen" and that might be why alkaline cells are now leaking.

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My wife has a Dell something or other laptop with touch screen, the screen rotates and flips around to form a giant tablet and a stylus that uses AAAA cells. She can do some nice art work with the stylus.

I wrote:

These days I see tons of Duracell and few of others.

Sorry, I take that back.

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It depends on which store I go to.? Where I shop most frequently, Energizer fills most of the racks.? In another, it's Duracell.

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But not the Eveready brand name.? I think Eveready and Energizer are co-owned, but Eveready is its own brand, which I rarely ever see anymore.

Andy

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