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Hi folks,
I'm new to the group and enjoying reading old posts and learning a lot about electrifying boats.? This may have been covered in older posts so please excuse me if I'm bringing up something that has already been discussed but I would like to run some ideas and questions by ya'll:
- One of the differences between a 1984 38,000lb heavy cruising sailboat like my Liberty 458 and a modern cruiser/racer is that the cruiser/racer will point into the wind on a beat about 20-30 deg higher than I can.
- Another difference is that unlike many "plastic fantastics" my old boat is very comfortable, seaworthy and affordable.? In all but sailing performance, I prefer her to something newer and with better performance.
- I love to sail when possible but I'm no purist and if I can cheat without compromise, I will.? I'd like to add a 10Kw electric motor to my existing drive train so that when I'm beating, I can turn my fixed 3-blade 20" x 15" propellor enough to help my sailing performance (my transmission is a Borg Warner Velvet Drive and can freewheel without any problem).? I estimate 2-3kw into the drive shaft would?be sufficient in most conditions to bring my sailing angle up to around 30-40deg off the wind which would keep my?impatience in check.? When there is no wind, I may also use the "2nd auxiliary" to keep me moving rather than start the noisy 84Hp Perkins 236 engine.? It would also be very nice coming into harbor when crew are line handling and we can hear each other without having to yell over the engine.
Some questions that I have: - ? Has anybody done something similar to this?? Can they report on their results???
- ?If I placed a BLDC motor with a 2:1 dual belt drive to two?pulleys over my propshaft, it would apply some side load to the shaft which would, in turn, be applied to the bearings of the transmission and the Cutless?bearing.? I'm confident that the load on the transmission would not be a problem but I'm not so sure about the Cutless bearing.? Does anybody have any experience with this?
- Would I need to include pillow blocks on the output shaft of the motor or can the?motors generally handle the side load of placing a pulley directly on the output shaft?
- I'd love to use the system to regenerate also.? I've read how regeneration is not very efficient in smaller boats but, with sufficient wind, I can consistently?hold 7knts throwing a pretty big wheel.? I know from experience trying to stall my prop shaft when I'm running along that there is a lot of power there!? Other than an old-school brushed DC motor, is there any motor that will do a better job of regenerating than another?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.??
Matthew
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Hi Matthew,?
Would you plan to somehow disengage the belt to the pulleys when using your diesel motor?
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On Sep 3, 2020, at 07:24, Matthew Cook <matthewcook40@...> wrote:
? Hi folks,
I'm new to the group and enjoying reading old posts and learning a lot about electrifying boats.? This may have been covered in older posts so please excuse me if I'm bringing up something that has already been discussed but I would like to run some ideas and questions by ya'll:
- One of the differences between a 1984 38,000lb heavy cruising sailboat like my Liberty 458 and a modern cruiser/racer is that the cruiser/racer will point into the wind on a beat about 20-30 deg higher than I can.
- Another difference is that unlike many "plastic fantastics" my old boat is very comfortable, seaworthy and affordable.? In all but sailing performance, I prefer her to something newer and with better performance.
- I love to sail when possible but I'm no purist and if I can cheat without compromise, I will.? I'd like to add a 10Kw electric motor to my existing drive train so that when I'm beating, I can turn my fixed 3-blade 20" x 15" propellor enough to help my sailing performance (my transmission is a Borg Warner Velvet Drive and can freewheel without any problem).? I estimate 2-3kw into the drive shaft would?be sufficient in most conditions to bring my sailing angle up to around 30-40deg off the wind which would keep my?impatience in check.? When there is no wind, I may also use the "2nd auxiliary" to keep me moving rather than start the noisy 84Hp Perkins 236 engine.? It would also be very nice coming into harbor when crew are line handling and we can hear each other without having to yell over the engine.
Some questions that I have: - ? Has anybody done something similar to this?? Can they report on their results???
- ?If I placed a BLDC motor with a 2:1 dual belt drive to two?pulleys over my propshaft, it would apply some side load to the shaft which would, in turn, be applied to the bearings of the transmission and the Cutless?bearing.? I'm confident that the load on the transmission would not be a problem but I'm not so sure about the Cutless bearing.? Does anybody have any experience with this?
- Would I need to include pillow blocks on the output shaft of the motor or can the?motors generally handle the side load of placing a pulley directly on the output shaft?
- I'd love to use the system to regenerate also.? I've read how regeneration is not very efficient in smaller boats but, with sufficient wind, I can consistently?hold 7knts throwing a pretty big wheel.? I know from experience trying to stall my prop shaft when I'm running along that there is a lot of power there!? Other than an old-school brushed DC motor, is there any motor that will do a better job of regenerating than another?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.??
Matthew
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You¡¯d have to be able to swap between the diesel and the electric motor on
the drive shaft, otherwise the electric motor would act as a giant
alternator when running the diesel and that would greatly decrease the
efficiency of the diesel. If you have regen set up, it would however charge
your batteries rather quickly.
Hi Matthew,
Would you plan to somehow disengage the belt to the pulleys when using your
diesel motor?
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Wonder if you could install a tensioner pulley of some sort if you wanted to disengage the electric. But don't see why you would want to the seems the electric would work well as an alternator to charge batteries.
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
Get
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
You¡¯d have to be able to swap between the diesel and the electric motor on the drive shaft, otherwise the electric motor would act as a giant alternator when running the diesel and that would greatly decrease the efficiency of the diesel.
If you have regen set up, it would however charge your batteries rather quickly.
?
Would you plan to somehow disengage the belt to the pulleys when using your diesel motor?
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Hi Matthew,
I don't know if you have the space for this sort of arrangement, but back in the 1980s Briggs&Stratton had an interesting set-up in a hybrid electric car prototype.
Here's an image from my website.
The electric motor was physically in-line between the gasoline engine and the gearbox. There were clutches at each end of the electric motor.
The arrangement could run in a number of modes.
1) Electric motor connected to gearbox via clutch, disconnected from gas engine, runs as 100% electric vehicle.
2) Electric motor disengaged electrically, connected physically at both ends to gearbox and gas engine, runs as 100% gasoline vehicle.
3) Electric motor engaged electrically and to both ends physically, allowing both the gas engine and electric motor to drive the gear box.
4) Electric motor engaged to gas engine, disconnected from gearbox, electrically connected as a generator to charge the batteries while parked (EV charging stations were not common in the early 1980s).
The write-up on the vehicle can be viewed at:
view-source:
I suppose you could set up a clutch arrangement using pulleys to achieve much the same results.
Darryl McMahon
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On 9/3/2020 10:19 AM, Matthew Cook wrote: Hi folks,
I'm new to the group and enjoying reading old posts and learning a lot about electrifying boats.? This may have been covered in older posts so please excuse me if I'm bringing up something that has already been discussed but I would like to run some ideas and questions by ya'll:
* One of the differences between a 1984 38,000lb heavy cruising
sailboat like my Liberty 458 and a modern cruiser/racer is that the
cruiser/racer will point into the wind on a beat about 20-30 deg
higher than I can.
* Another difference is that unlike many "plastic fantastics" my old
boat is very comfortable, seaworthy and affordable.? In all but
sailing performance, I prefer her to something newer and with better
performance.
* I love to sail when possible but I'm no purist and if I can cheat
without compromise, I will.? I'd like to add a 10Kw electric motor
to my existing drive train so that when I'm beating, I can turn my
fixed 3-blade 20" x 15" propellor enough to help my sailing
performance (my transmission is a Borg Warner Velvet Drive and can
freewheel without any problem).? I estimate 2-3kw into the drive
shaft would?be sufficient in most conditions to bring my sailing
angle up to around 30-40deg off the wind which would keep
my?impatience in check.? When there is no wind, I may also use the
"2nd auxiliary" to keep me moving rather than start the noisy 84Hp
Perkins 236 engine.? It would also be very nice coming into harbor
when crew are line handling and we can hear each other without
having to yell over the engine.
Some questions that I have:
* ? Has anybody done something similar to this?? Can they report on
their results?
* ?If I placed a BLDC motor with a 2:1 dual belt drive to two?pulleys
over my propshaft, it would apply some side load to the shaft which
would, in turn, be applied to the bearings of the transmission and
the Cutless?bearing.? I'm confident that the load on the
transmission would not be a problem but I'm not so sure about the
Cutless bearing.? Does anybody have any experience with this?
* Would I need to include pillow blocks on the output shaft of the
motor or can the?motors generally handle the side load of placing a
pulley directly on the output shaft?
* I'd love to use the system to regenerate also.? I've read how
regeneration is not very efficient in smaller boats but, with
sufficient wind, I can consistently?hold 7knts throwing a pretty big
wheel.? I know from experience trying to stall my prop shaft when
I'm running along that there is a lot of power there!? Other than an
old-school brushed DC motor, is there any motor that will do a
better job of regenerating than another?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
Matthew
--
Curtains for COVID
Darryl McMahon
COVID-19 blog:
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I have gone the double belt route after the one belt experiment ?kept slipping and burned out bearings?from the tension.? ? ? ? Now I use a goodyear synchronous (like in a supercharger) ?and have not?burned out any bearings.?
My electric motor is mounted on a home made?frame to my BorgWarner. Pulled out 4 main cover bolts and used larger ones to mount the frame to the transmission. ?Goodyear supplies gears for the top 10 kw (3 phase) ?and my ?large gear between the transmission and shaft (which had to be machined to fit ). ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?My biggest problem is heat ?... ?and Im thinking?to convert up to 96 volts.? Any ?concurrence?on?96 volts works running?cooler?
There are probably?better ways and head scratching has cost me lot of hair.? ? ? ? ?HAS ANYONE UTILIZED A TRANSFER CASE??
There is a shop in Whisky Creek that has made parts for Borg Warner that is willing and has designed a transfer case for our purpose. ? ? ? ? ? ? 10 k Canadian for the first one ... ?less if there are more ? any interest ? ?Sincerely, Orest? ?Alberni Charters ?250-735-6503.
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:54 AM William Shannahan via <shannahanwilliam= [email protected]> wrote:
Wonder if you could install a tensioner pulley of some sort if you wanted to disengage the electric. But don't see why you would want to the seems the electric would work well as an alternator to charge batteries.
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
Get
?
You¡¯d have to be able to swap between the diesel and the electric motor on the drive shaft, otherwise the electric motor would act as a giant alternator when running the diesel and that would greatly decrease the efficiency of the diesel.
If you have regen set up, it would however charge your batteries rather quickly.
?
Would you plan to somehow disengage the belt to the pulleys when using your diesel motor?
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That's an interesting idea Darryl but I don't think I'd be able to fit something like that in my case.
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I was intending not to have to install any kind of clutch.? My thinking is that I could allow the diesel to drive the motor as a generator until the batteries were charged and then the motor would effectively go offload and freewheel and provide very little parasitic load (Im thinking of using a?48V Sevcon Gen-4 which supports regeneration).?
The Perkins 236 has ample power to drive the boat and the generator.? As it is, the diesel is driving a 170 amp Baldor alternator which I could probably remove and sell and replace with a standard 35amp alternator as it would be relegated to only charging the diesel starter batteries.
Orest, I was thinking of using something like the cogged belt that you suggest.? I'll look into the Goodyear option. Thanks.? I can see that by using a cogged belt the required tension is much less critical and so the side load on the bearings should be less.? I like the idea of mounting directly to the transmission.? I don't know if I have enough room for that.? I'll need to check.? I was thinking of glassing in a mounting pad directly to the hull and mounting the motor onto that via a hinge, similar to an alternator on an engine.
If you get a taker for the transmission?case idea, I could be interested but my budget for the whole project is under US$5k so I imagine that would be out of my reach.
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I just took a look in my engine room and I do think I could possibly mount the motor directly onto the transmission.? Orest, would you be willing to post a photo of your arrangement?? I'd be most interested to see just where you bolted the mounting bracket.??
Also, I was looking at Goodyear toothed power transmission belts.? There are many different types!? Do you recall just what kind you are using?
It's interesting that you are experiencing heat problems.? Is it when you're running or is it when regenerating that you're developing heat?? Do you think a liquid cooled motor might be in order for this application perhaps?? Do you often run in the 10kw range or are you getting hot at lower power also?
Thanks,
Matthew
Dexter, Michigan
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I would definitely worry about, and fortify your cutlass bearing but I can say for sure that the electric motor and the bearing on the Velvet drive transmissions are NO PROBLEM. This was a big concern of mine in the beginning too but? I've been running this setup for almost 10 years now.?
Unfortunately I have to manually remove the chain when going from electric to diesel but I so seldom run the diesel it is not an issue. That's why I've never bothered to come up with any kind of clutch mechanism either. I do not recommend using a chain although the components are much cheaper to buy and easier to install, it is noisy and and a lot of maintenance. I plan to eventually convert to series hybrid configuration when either the diesel or the electric motor ever dies and will switch to a synchronous belt drive directly to the driveshaft and do away with the V-drive. I know that will perform much better but as long as it all continues to work, I'll keep using it. The diesel is a 1962 British Standard and the motor is from D&D in Syracuse NY with an Altrax DSC500 controller.?
I have had occasion to run the diesel with the chain still attached to the electric and it worked fine but was a little noisy. Since the dampener plate on the flywheel of the diesel started popping springs about 5 years ago I have only used the diesel one time when something went wrong with the motor controller,?(I do start the motor every few months just to be sure it's still operational).??I was drifting toward shore so I fired it up and motored to deeper water to anchor while I figured out what was going on.? ?That's the time I ran it with the chain still on. The diesel system still works great but the failing dampener plate is hard on the transmission so it's reserved for emergency use only. I don't want to put the money into fixing it since I plan on redoing the whole thing eventually.?
On Thursday, September 3, 2020, 10:24:45 AM EDT, Matthew Cook <matthewcook40@...> wrote:
Hi folks,
I'm new to the group and enjoying reading old posts and learning a lot about electrifying boats.? This may have been covered in older posts so please excuse me if I'm bringing up something that has already been discussed but I would like to run some ideas and questions by ya'll:
- One of the differences between a 1984 38,000lb heavy cruising sailboat like my Liberty 458 and a modern cruiser/racer is that the cruiser/racer will point into the wind on a beat about 20-30 deg higher than I can.
- Another difference is that unlike many "plastic fantastics" my old boat is very comfortable, seaworthy and affordable.? In all but sailing performance, I prefer her to something newer and with better performance.
- I love to sail when possible but I'm no purist and if I can cheat without compromise, I will.? I'd like to add a 10Kw electric motor to my existing drive train so that when I'm beating, I can turn my fixed 3-blade 20" x 15" propellor enough to help my sailing performance (my transmission is a Borg Warner Velvet Drive and can freewheel without any problem).? I estimate 2-3kw into the drive shaft would?be sufficient in most conditions to bring my sailing angle up to around 30-40deg off the wind which would keep my?impatience in check.? When there is no wind, I may also use the "2nd auxiliary" to keep me moving rather than start the noisy 84Hp Perkins 236 engine.? It would also be very nice coming into harbor when crew are line handling and we can hear each other without having to yell over the engine.
Some questions that I have: - ? Has anybody done something similar to this?? Can they report on their results???
- ?If I placed a BLDC motor with a 2:1 dual belt drive to two?pulleys over my propshaft, it would apply some side load to the shaft which would, in turn, be applied to the bearings of the transmission and the Cutless?bearing.? I'm confident that the load on the transmission would not be a problem but I'm not so sure about the Cutless bearing.? Does anybody have any experience with this?
- Would I need to include pillow blocks on the output shaft of the motor or can the?motors generally handle the side load of placing a pulley directly on the output shaft?
- I'd love to use the system to regenerate also.? I've read how regeneration is not very efficient in smaller boats but, with sufficient wind, I can consistently?hold 7knts throwing a pretty big wheel.? I know from experience trying to stall my prop shaft when I'm running along that there is a lot of power there!? Other than an old-school brushed DC motor, is there any motor that will do a better job of regenerating than another?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.??
Matthew
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Darryl McMahon