|
Lurker here who enjoys all the informative info you all post.
This came down my?Quora feed, I thought it might be of interest to you. It's by a Li-ion battery designer and he provides a lot of practical knowledge.
Best regards,
Dan
| Karl Young,?Li-ion, supercapacitors, EVs, HEVs, BEVs??? |
|
|
Daniel H. Wolf, Esq.
Founder, CEO
Democracy Counts! San Diego, CA 92104 USA 619.270.6434 Mobile
Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you
do makes any difference.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????? A Buddhist saying
|
I checked out the post and the guy left out one simple yet important detail. You can't use a battery with a 100amp BMS for starting your car, which is what all of the cheaper prismatic cell lithium batteries come with. Thankfully most of them will point blank tell you not to use on your car but usually it's buried in the finer print that most people don't read or even follow half the time when they do.??
As long as you shell out for the upgraded BMS and cells that will give you the CCA capacity you need then lithium is great but I don't think it's a better value because? the batteries that can do that are much more expensive and that brings into questions the cost effectiveness of the extra investment, especially when you can pretty much count on a decent FLA to crank your car for 6 years or more. The lithium chemistry definitely outperforms Lead by leaps and bounds but it's the long-term reliability of the BMS I worry about. If you're paying 5 times more for a Lithium battery do you really think you'll get 5 times longer life? Do you even need 5 times longer life?
I'm a total Lithium convert and won't deny it's the near term future of energy storage. With the recent precipitous price drops, I finally converted the Arc from FLAs to? LiFePo this year and am flabbergasted at how much better they are but I think it's safe to say lead is not quite dead. Yet.?
Capt. Carter www.shipofimagination.com
On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 09:08:24 AM EST, Daniel Wolf <danielhwolf@...> wrote:
Lurker here who enjoys all the informative info you all post.
This came down my?Quora feed, I thought it might be of interest to you. It's by a Li-ion battery designer and he provides a lot of practical knowledge.
Best regards,
Dan
| Karl Young,?Li-ion, supercapacitors, EVs, HEVs, BEVs??? |
|
|
Daniel H. Wolf, Esq.
Founder, CEO
Democracy Counts! San Diego, CA 92104 USA 619.270.6434 Mobile
Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you
do makes any difference.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????? A Buddhist saying
|
John and Cap’n Carter offer great points and advice to consider. This year I had had enough with lead acid starting batteries on my Vanagon, which only gets driven really a few times a year.? I looked at available lithium options that might work to replace the starting battery, but except for “maybe” one that checked at least most of the boxes, the price was in the higher hundred$ for a Lithium Ion option.? Sure, LiFePo options are out there, but as pointed out earlier, there are BMS and other reasons they can’t handle this application. What did I do? I made my own Lithium Ion starter battery.? It was a lot of work and ended up not fitting, so I had to carve out some metal to get it to fit, but what an amazing starter battery I have now.? Tested CCA (Battery Analyzer): 3000 CCA. While it didn’t cost me a whole lot to do, it was a lot of work. In my case, I started with a known lithium ion cell stack I have used on my boat for 31-48v use (nom. 42v, 35ah, 12S2P config).? I then disassembled all the interconnects and carefully made new ones to make a nom. 14v (4S6P) 105ah battery.? I took the existing BMS card and made custom cabling, using just 4 of the monitoring channels. ?I already use these batteries and BMS cards on my boat pack (20P(12S(2P)) configuration for 700ah capacity) where I can monitor (and bypass if needed) any of the 240 cell pairs in the pack.? For my Vanagon, there’s just 4 cell hextets to monitor. In either case, no active BMS is really needed given the operating conditions I have.? In the boat’s case, I almost never take the pack voltage below 36v and check and balance the pack about once a year (only maybe 4-7 charge cycles). In the Vanagon’s case, I measured the BMS readings at rest, during start and after charging and after a couple trips and have seen no change in differential cell voltages. ? Performance: Rock solid starting (3000CCA vs maybe 250 or less with what I typically ended up with).? Ability to disconnect and float the battery (and cells) for months or years at a time without lead-acid worry of “sulfation”.? Cost was under $300 total. ? I still need to get the thing completely parked in place.? I do have a new battery compartment lid I made, but still need to hammer out a replacement side wall.? I also finally invested in a “house power” or auxiliary battery.? In that case, I bought some of the lower cost nom. 12v LFP 25ah(?) boxes out there.? The price was right, and they fit in the cavity nicely, but boy I really do hate that these battery manufacturers get away with embedding BMS electronics that cannot be disabled or won’t self-disable during times of no discharge.? Probably every one of these out there will “self-brick” within months if left alone.? When these LFP batteries I got arrived, each one of them only read under 2volts!!!? Fortunately, literature shows that most lithium chemistries will survive “self-discharge”, just not reverse polarity (which is what you get when you serially discharge a series of cells).? Still some of these LFP manufacturers (e.g. NEC) make batteries which, like laptop smart batteries, will blow an internal fuse or otherwise lock out the battery terminals from being charged or discharged if the voltage drops, say, below 10v. ?These may be recoverable as I found with the NEC batteries, but your mileage may vary… ? One last thing: You might be thinking “Wow, you must have one heck of a beefy BMS if it can work as a starter battery!”? Actually, no.? The BMS cards I use is only good to bypass about 1amp around cell pairs. ?It’s such a trickle that it can take days or longer to balance differentials of any significance.?? And that’s okay.? As configured, a 420amp starting current will draw just 70amps per cell with my battery.? Now, that is not exactly insignificant as these are 17ah cells, so this is about a 4C draw.? However, it’s just for a very short time and the amount of amp-hours drawn during a start episode is miniscule---I measured drop in the low millivolts at the cell level during a start. ? Anyway, long wind here, but for me, very happy with lithium ion for a starter battery. ? -Myles ? ?
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Subject: Re: [electricboats] Li-ion battery designer commentary? I checked out the post and the guy left out one simple yet important detail. You can't use a battery with a 100amp BMS for starting your car, which is what all of the cheaper prismatic cell lithium batteries come with. Thankfully most of them will point blank tell you not to use on your car but usually it's buried in the finer print that most people don't read or even follow half the time when they do.?? As long as you shell out for the upgraded BMS and cells that will give you the CCA capacity you need then lithium is great but I don't think it's a better value because? the batteries that can do that are much more expensive and that brings into questions the cost effectiveness of the extra investment, especially when you can pretty much count on a decent FLA to crank your car for 6 years or more. The lithium chemistry definitely outperforms Lead by leaps and bounds but it's the long-term reliability of the BMS I worry about. If you're paying 5 times more for a Lithium battery do you really think you'll get 5 times longer life? Do you even need 5 times longer life? I'm a total Lithium convert and won't deny it's the near term future of energy storage. With the recent precipitous price drops, I finally converted the Arc from FLAs to? LiFePo this year and am flabbergasted at how much better they are but I think it's safe to say lead is not quite dead. Yet.? On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 09:08:24 AM EST, Daniel Wolf <danielhwolf@...> wrote: Lurker here who enjoys all the informative info you all post. This came down my?Quora feed, I thought it might be of interest to you. It's by a Li-ion battery designer and he provides a lot of practical knowledge. | Karl Young,?Li-ion, supercapacitors, EVs, HEVs, BEVs??? |
| |
Founder, CEO Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you do makes any difference. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????? A Buddhist saying ?
|
These are great points. For instance, I'd not thought of having an Li-ion house bank while keeping an AGM for starting. Makes a lot of sense.?
I would urge people to click through to the Quora author's master page, he covers a lot of topics, some of which may help inform the discussions here rather than taking it abroad into cars and so on.
Best regards,
Dan?
Daniel H. Wolf, Esq.
Founder, CEO
Democracy Counts! San Diego, CA 92104 USA 619.270.6434 Mobile
Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you
do makes any difference.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????? A Buddhist saying
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:53 PM Myles Twete < matwete@...> wrote: John and Cap’n Carter offer great points and advice to consider. This year I had had enough with lead acid starting batteries on my Vanagon, which only gets driven really a few times a year.? I looked at available lithium options that might work to replace the starting battery, but except for “maybe” one that checked at least most of the boxes, the price was in the higher hundred$ for a Lithium Ion option.? Sure, LiFePo options are out there, but as pointed out earlier, there are BMS and other reasons they can’t handle this application. What did I do? I made my own Lithium Ion starter battery.? It was a lot of work and ended up not fitting, so I had to carve out some metal to get it to fit, but what an amazing starter battery I have now.? Tested CCA (Battery Analyzer): 3000 CCA. While it didn’t cost me a whole lot to do, it was a lot of work. In my case, I started with a known lithium ion cell stack I have used on my boat for 31-48v use (nom. 42v, 35ah, 12S2P config).? I then disassembled all the interconnects and carefully made new ones to make a nom. 14v (4S6P) 105ah battery.? I took the existing BMS card and made custom cabling, using just 4 of the monitoring channels.? I already use these batteries and BMS cards on my boat pack (20P(12S(2P)) configuration for 700ah capacity) where I can monitor (and bypass if needed) any of the 240 cell pairs in the pack.? For my Vanagon, there’s just 4 cell hextets to monitor. In either case, no active BMS is really needed given the operating conditions I have.? In the boat’s case, I almost never take the pack voltage below 36v and check and balance the pack about once a year (only maybe 4-7 charge cycles). In the Vanagon’s case, I measured the BMS readings at rest, during start and after charging and after a couple trips and have seen no change in differential cell voltages. ? Performance: Rock solid starting (3000CCA vs maybe 250 or less with what I typically ended up with).? Ability to disconnect and float the battery (and cells) for months or years at a time without lead-acid worry of “sulfation”.? Cost was under $300 total. ? I still need to get the thing completely parked in place.? I do have a new battery compartment lid I made, but still need to hammer out a replacement side wall.? I also finally invested in a “house power” or auxiliary battery.? In that case, I bought some of the lower cost nom. 12v LFP 25ah(?) boxes out there.? The price was right, and they fit in the cavity nicely, but boy I really do hate that these battery manufacturers get away with embedding BMS electronics that cannot be disabled or won’t self-disable during times of no discharge.? Probably every one of these out there will “self-brick” within months if left alone.? When these LFP batteries I got arrived, each one of them only read under 2volts!!!? Fortunately, literature shows that most lithium chemistries will survive “self-discharge”, just not reverse polarity (which is what you get when you serially discharge a series of cells).? Still some of these LFP manufacturers (e.g. NEC) make batteries which, like laptop smart batteries, will blow an internal fuse or otherwise lock out the battery terminals from being charged or discharged if the voltage drops, say, below 10v.? These may be recoverable as I found with the NEC batteries, but your mileage may vary… ? One last thing: You might be thinking “Wow, you must have one heck of a beefy BMS if it can work as a starter battery!”? Actually, no.? The BMS cards I use is only good to bypass about 1amp around cell pairs.? It’s such a trickle that it can take days or longer to balance differentials of any significance.?? And that’s okay.? As configured, a 420amp starting current will draw just 70amps per cell with my battery.? Now, that is not exactly insignificant as these are 17ah cells, so this is about a 4C draw.? However, it’s just for a very short time and the amount of amp-hours drawn during a start episode is miniscule---I measured drop in the low millivolts at the cell level during a start. ? Anyway, long wind here, but for me, very happy with lithium ion for a starter battery. ? -Myles ? ? ? I checked out the post and the guy left out one simple yet important detail. You can't use a battery with a 100amp BMS for starting your car, which is what all of the cheaper prismatic cell lithium batteries come with. Thankfully most of them will point blank tell you not to use on your car but usually it's buried in the finer print that most people don't read or even follow half the time when they do.?? As long as you shell out for the upgraded BMS and cells that will give you the CCA capacity you need then lithium is great but I don't think it's a better value because? the batteries that can do that are much more expensive and that brings into questions the cost effectiveness of the extra investment, especially when you can pretty much count on a decent FLA to crank your car for 6 years or more. The lithium chemistry definitely outperforms Lead by leaps and bounds but it's the long-term reliability of the BMS I worry about. If you're paying 5 times more for a Lithium battery do you really think you'll get 5 times longer life? Do you even need 5 times longer life? I'm a total Lithium convert and won't deny it's the near term future of energy storage. With the recent precipitous price drops, I finally converted the Arc from FLAs to? LiFePo this year and am flabbergasted at how much better they are but I think it's safe to say lead is not quite dead. Yet.? On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 09:08:24 AM EST, Daniel Wolf <danielhwolf@...> wrote: Lurker here who enjoys all the informative info you all post. This came down my?Quora feed, I thought it might be of interest to you. It's by a Li-ion battery designer and he provides a lot of practical knowledge. | Karl Young,?Li-ion, supercapacitors, EVs, HEVs, BEVs??? |
| |
Founder, CEO Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you do makes any difference. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????? A Buddhist saying ?
|
Buy li then make u hang around so they die first
On Wednesday, December 7, 2022, 14:22, Daniel Wolf <danielhwolf@...> wrote: These are great points. For instance, I'd not thought of having an Li-ion house bank while keeping an AGM for starting. Makes a lot of sense.?
I would urge people to click through to the Quora author's master page, he covers a lot of topics, some of which may help inform the discussions here rather than taking it abroad into cars and so on.
Best regards,
Dan?
Daniel H. Wolf, Esq.
Founder, CEO Democracy Counts! San Diego, CA 92104 USA 619.270.6434 Mobile
Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you
do makes any difference.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????? A Buddhist sayingOn Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:53 PM Myles Twete < matwete@...> wrote: John and Cap’n Carter offer great points and advice to consider. This year I had had enough with lead acid starting batteries on my Vanagon, which only gets driven really a few times a year.? I looked at available lithium options that might work to replace the starting battery, but except for “maybe” one that checked at least most of the boxes, the price was in the higher hundred$ for a Lithium Ion option.? Sure, LiFePo options are out there, but as pointed out earlier, there are BMS and other reasons they can’t handle this application. What did I do? I made my own Lithium Ion starter battery.? It was a lot of work and ended up not fitting, so I had to carve out some metal to get it to fit, but what an amazing starter battery I have now.? Tested CCA (Battery Analyzer): 3000 CCA. While it didn’t cost me a whole lot to do, it was a lot of work. In my case, I started with a known lithium ion cell stack I have used on my boat for 31-48v use (nom. 42v, 35ah, 12S2P config).? I then disassembled all the interconnects and carefully made new ones to make a nom. 14v (4S6P) 105ah battery.? I took the existing BMS card and made custom cabling, using just 4 of the monitoring channels.? I already use these batteries and BMS cards on my boat pack (20P(12S(2P)) configuration for 700ah capacity) where I can monitor (and bypass if needed) any of the 240 cell pairs in the pack.? For my Vanagon, there’s just 4 cell hextets to monitor. In either case, no active BMS is really needed given the operating conditions I have.? In the boat’s case, I almost never take the pack voltage below 36v and check and balance the pack about once a year (only maybe 4-7 charge cycles). In the Vanagon’s case, I measured the BMS readings at rest, during start and after charging and after a couple trips and have seen no change in differential cell voltages. ? Performance: Rock solid starting (3000CCA vs maybe 250 or less with what I typically ended up with).? Ability to disconnect and float the battery (and cells) for months or years at a time without lead-acid worry of “sulfation”.? Cost was under $300 total. ? I still need to get the thing completely parked in place.? I do have a new battery compartment lid I made, but still need to hammer out a replacement side wall.? I also finally invested in a “house power” or auxiliary battery.? In that case, I bought some of the lower cost nom. 12v LFP 25ah(?) boxes out there.? The price was right, and they fit in the cavity nicely, but boy I really do hate that these battery manufacturers get away with embedding BMS electronics that cannot be disabled or won’t self-disable during times of no discharge.? Probably every one of these out there will “self-brick” within months if left alone.? When these LFP batteries I got arrived, each one of them only read under 2volts!!!? Fortunately, literature shows that most lithium chemistries will survive “self-discharge”, just not reverse polarity (which is what you get when you serially discharge a series of cells).? Still some of these LFP manufacturers (e.g. NEC) make batteries which, like laptop smart batteries, will blow an internal fuse or otherwise lock out the battery terminals from being charged or discharged if the voltage drops, say, below 10v.? These may be recoverable as I found with the NEC batteries, but your mileage may vary… ? One last thing: You might be thinking “Wow, you must have one heck of a beefy BMS if it can work as a starter battery!”? Actually, no.? The BMS cards I use is only good to bypass about 1amp around cell pairs.? It’s such a trickle that it can take days or longer to balance differentials of any significance.?? And that’s okay.? As configured, a 420amp starting current will draw just 70amps per cell with my battery.? Now, that is not exactly insignificant as these are 17ah cells, so this is about a 4C draw.? However, it’s just for a very short time and the amount of amp-hours drawn during a start episode is miniscule---I measured drop in the low millivolts at the cell level during a start. ? Anyway, long wind here, but for me, very happy with lithium ion for a starter battery. ? -Myles ? ? ? I checked out the post and the guy left out one simple yet important detail. You can't use a battery with a 100amp BMS for starting your car, which is what all of the cheaper prismatic cell lithium batteries come with. Thankfully most of them will point blank tell you not to use on your car but usually it's buried in the finer print that most people don't read or even follow half the time when they do.?? As long as you shell out for the upgraded BMS and cells that will give you the CCA capacity you need then lithium is great but I don't think it's a better value because? the batteries that can do that are much more expensive and that brings into questions the cost effectiveness of the extra investment, especially when you can pretty much count on a decent FLA to crank your car for 6 years or more. The lithium chemistry definitely outperforms Lead by leaps and bounds but it's the long-term reliability of the BMS I worry about. If you're paying 5 times more for a Lithium battery do you really think you'll get 5 times longer life? Do you even need 5 times longer life? I'm a total Lithium convert and won't deny it's the near term future of energy storage. With the recent precipitous price drops, I finally converted the Arc from FLAs to? LiFePo this year and am flabbergasted at how much better they are but I think it's safe to say lead is not quite dead. Yet.? On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 09:08:24 AM EST, Daniel Wolf <danielhwolf@...> wrote: Lurker here who enjoys all the informative info you all post. This came down my?Quora feed, I thought it might be of interest to you. It's by a Li-ion battery designer and he provides a lot of practical knowledge. | Karl Young,?Li-ion, supercapacitors, EVs, HEVs, BEVs??? |
| |
Founder, CEO Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you do makes any difference. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????? A Buddhist saying ?
|
I was on the fence about LiFePo, but I have completely abandoned them.?
They can work well in conjunction with one of the many super capacitor 12v boards out there that will handle CCA,? but...
Story:
I have installed several RV solar installations using lithium, but recently I was introduced to a carbon lead battery that has more (greater) cycle life than LiFePo, and has the ability to supply large loads.?
The name of the battery is Northstar, and the series is the blue series. It is under the outback umbrella. Before you waste any more of your resources on polluting the earth, producing lithium products, download the manual for the blue series of batteries from there website.?
In answer to your future questions!? Yes I am using them on my system, and yes I am recommending them.?
Buy li then make u hang around so they die first On Wednesday, December 7, 2022, 14:22, Daniel Wolf <danielhwolf@...> wrote: These are great points. For instance, I'd not thought of having an Li-ion house bank while keeping an AGM for starting. Makes a lot of sense.?
I would urge people to click through to the Quora author's master page, he covers a lot of topics, some of which may help inform the discussions here rather than taking it abroad into cars and so on.
Best regards,
Dan?
Daniel H. Wolf, Esq.
Founder, CEO Democracy Counts! San Diego, CA 92104 USA 619.270.6434 Mobile
Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you
do makes any difference.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????? A Buddhist sayingOn Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:53 PM Myles Twete < matwete@...> wrote: John and Cap’n Carter offer great points and advice to consider. This year I had had enough with lead acid starting batteries on my Vanagon, which only gets driven really a few times a year.? I looked at available lithium options that might work to replace the starting battery, but except for “maybe” one that checked at least most of the boxes, the price was in the higher hundred$ for a Lithium Ion option.? Sure, LiFePo options are out there, but as pointed out earlier, there are BMS and other reasons they can’t handle this application. What did I do? I made my own Lithium Ion starter battery.? It was a lot of work and ended up not fitting, so I had to carve out some metal to get it to fit, but what an amazing starter battery I have now.? Tested CCA (Battery Analyzer): 3000 CCA. While it didn’t cost me a whole lot to do, it was a lot of work. In my case, I started with a known lithium ion cell stack I have used on my boat for 31-48v use (nom. 42v, 35ah, 12S2P config).? I then disassembled all the interconnects and carefully made new ones to make a nom. 14v (4S6P) 105ah battery.? I took the existing BMS card and made custom cabling, using just 4 of the monitoring channels.? I already use these batteries and BMS cards on my boat pack (20P(12S(2P)) configuration for 700ah capacity) where I can monitor (and bypass if needed) any of the 240 cell pairs in the pack.? For my Vanagon, there’s just 4 cell hextets to monitor. In either case, no active BMS is really needed given the operating conditions I have.? In the boat’s case, I almost never take the pack voltage below 36v and check and balance the pack about once a year (only maybe 4-7 charge cycles). In the Vanagon’s case, I measured the BMS readings at rest, during start and after charging and after a couple trips and have seen no change in differential cell voltages. ? Performance: Rock solid starting (3000CCA vs maybe 250 or less with what I typically ended up with).? Ability to disconnect and float the battery (and cells) for months or years at a time without lead-acid worry of “sulfation”.? Cost was under $300 total. ? I still need to get the thing completely parked in place.? I do have a new battery compartment lid I made, but still need to hammer out a replacement side wall.? I also finally invested in a “house power” or auxiliary battery.? In that case, I bought some of the lower cost nom. 12v LFP 25ah(?) boxes out there.? The price was right, and they fit in the cavity nicely, but boy I really do hate that these battery manufacturers get away with embedding BMS electronics that cannot be disabled or won’t self-disable during times of no discharge.? Probably every one of these out there will “self-brick” within months if left alone.? When these LFP batteries I got arrived, each one of them only read under 2volts!!!? Fortunately, literature shows that most lithium chemistries will survive “self-discharge”, just not reverse polarity (which is what you get when you serially discharge a series of cells).? Still some of these LFP manufacturers (e.g. NEC) make batteries which, like laptop smart batteries, will blow an internal fuse or otherwise lock out the battery terminals from being charged or discharged if the voltage drops, say, below 10v.? These may be recoverable as I found with the NEC batteries, but your mileage may vary… ? One last thing: You might be thinking “Wow, you must have one heck of a beefy BMS if it can work as a starter battery!”? Actually, no.? The BMS cards I use is only good to bypass about 1amp around cell pairs.? It’s such a trickle that it can take days or longer to balance differentials of any significance.?? And that’s okay.? As configured, a 420amp starting current will draw just 70amps per cell with my battery.? Now, that is not exactly insignificant as these are 17ah cells, so this is about a 4C draw.? However, it’s just for a very short time and the amount of amp-hours drawn during a start episode is miniscule---I measured drop in the low millivolts at the cell level during a start. ? Anyway, long wind here, but for me, very happy with lithium ion for a starter battery. ? -Myles ? ? ? I checked out the post and the guy left out one simple yet important detail. You can't use a battery with a 100amp BMS for starting your car, which is what all of the cheaper prismatic cell lithium batteries come with. Thankfully most of them will point blank tell you not to use on your car but usually it's buried in the finer print that most people don't read or even follow half the time when they do.?? As long as you shell out for the upgraded BMS and cells that will give you the CCA capacity you need then lithium is great but I don't think it's a better value because? the batteries that can do that are much more expensive and that brings into questions the cost effectiveness of the extra investment, especially when you can pretty much count on a decent FLA to crank your car for 6 years or more. The lithium chemistry definitely outperforms Lead by leaps and bounds but it's the long-term reliability of the BMS I worry about. If you're paying 5 times more for a Lithium battery do you really think you'll get 5 times longer life? Do you even need 5 times longer life? I'm a total Lithium convert and won't deny it's the near term future of energy storage. With the recent precipitous price drops, I finally converted the Arc from FLAs to? LiFePo this year and am flabbergasted at how much better they are but I think it's safe to say lead is not quite dead. Yet.? On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 09:08:24 AM EST, Daniel Wolf <danielhwolf@...> wrote: Lurker here who enjoys all the informative info you all post. This came down my?Quora feed, I thought it might be of interest to you. It's by a Li-ion battery designer and he provides a lot of practical knowledge. | Karl Young,?Li-ion, supercapacitors, EVs, HEVs, BEVs??? |
| |
Founder, CEO Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you do makes any difference. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????? A Buddhist saying ?
|
At >60 pounds per kWh, and limited 50% depth of discharge (for maximum lifespan), these Northstar carbon lead batteries are not really in the same class as Lifepo4 batteries for applications where energy density is an issue...?
|
I've heard good things about NorthStar batteries, and I've used the Trojan "carbon infused" batteries but I wasn't that impressed. Sure, they worked a lot better, but they still don't hold a candle to Lithium chemistry. And carbon infused lead batteries are a lot more expensive so that cancels out any cost advantage they might offer.? ?
The problem with lead chemistry is not it's capacity to store energy, it actually provides a pretty good value for that. The problem is you lose your ass putting the energy in and taking it out, especially if you want to do it in a hurry. If you have a system where you can charge slowly and only do low current draws with low depth of discharge, you could have argued that lead was a better value than lithium until recently. But now that you can buy a ready to use kWhr of lithium storage capacity for $250, lead has just about lost any price advantage it had and once it hit's $150/kWhr it will pretty much be game over for the lead battery industry. I don't think lead will ever completely be dead but it will soon be relegated to only very specialized applications imo.?
I'm on a cruise right now running my new lithium batteries hard for the first time and I can state UNEQUIVELENTLY they are definitely in another league than ANY lead batteries I've ever used or heard of and I've cruised the Arc over 5000 miles using various lead batteries over the last 12 years. As a long time holdout for using lead acid chemistry, I have to agree with Elon Musk now when he said, "lead sucks".?
You can still debate the cost benefit ratio of lead for some specialty applications but comparing the performance of lead to lithium is like comparing little league baseball to the major league.? Lithium is that much better, imo.
Capt. Carter www.shipofimagination.com
On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 06:57:55 AM EST, F. Neil <fneilss@...> wrote:
At >60 pounds per kWh, and limited 50% depth of discharge (for maximum lifespan), these Northstar carbon lead batteries are not really in the same class as Lifepo4 batteries for applications where energy density is an issue...?
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Yah! If you're loading your racing boat up with lithium and your wanting to plane, energy to weight ratio is big. However when displacement hulls are the major players weight becomes less of a factor.?
If I consider my sailboat, it had 5000 lbs. Of lead bolted on the underside. Had a 5411 universal diesel originally installed. Battery density becomes a non-issue.?
I of course must take into account recyclable resource when I consider the avenue I take. Why? Well because I got into sail-electric to help the environment. This required my research into the processes used to make my components.?
So what are my components?
Used off grid solar panels, replacing aged sails. Reusing panels keeps those panels out of the landfills, and have a cost benefit. (Roughly 3000w used panels vary from rated values).?
Carbon lead Batteries not only have higher c ratings than lead acid, they have the same ability to be recycled. Recycling of lithium Batteries are a completely different subject.? As well as the strain on the environment during the initial refinement required.?
With the removal of sailing gear, the lead ballast can be replaced by lead Carbon power storage. (3000# ÷ 156#=53 NSB batteries). Not to say that you would need to, but the lead in the keel replaced by blues would be 2000amp hours at the typical 48volt system without changing the water line.?
48 volt 200ah bank was at the time of purchase 1800 usd. In conjunction with 3000 watt solar bank,? and 10kw drive. Keeps the battery bank usable at less than hull speed.?
In summary: if I were talking to a group of car enthusiasts, I would have to consider destroying the environment, but I am not! I am talking to a group of mostly displacement hull enthusiasts? what I am encouraged about is my post was considered.?
Have a wonderful day!!
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 8:45 AM twowheelinguy via <twowheelinguy= [email protected]> wrote:
I've heard good things about NorthStar batteries, and I've used the Trojan "carbon infused" batteries but I wasn't that impressed. Sure, they worked a lot better, but they still don't hold a candle to Lithium chemistry. And carbon infused lead batteries are a lot more expensive so that cancels out any cost advantage they might offer.? ?
The problem with lead chemistry is not it's capacity to store energy, it actually provides a pretty good value for that. The problem is you lose your ass putting the energy in and taking it out, especially if you want to do it in a hurry. If you have a system where you can charge slowly and only do low current draws with low depth of discharge, you could have argued that lead was a better value than lithium until recently. But now that you can buy a ready to use kWhr of lithium storage capacity for $250, lead has just about lost any price advantage it had and once it hit's $150/kWhr it will pretty much be game over for the lead battery industry. I don't think lead will ever completely be dead but it will soon be relegated to only very specialized applications imo.?
I'm on a cruise right now running my new lithium batteries hard for the first time and I can state UNEQUIVELENTLY they are definitely in another league than ANY lead batteries I've ever used or heard of and I've cruised the Arc over 5000 miles using various lead batteries over the last 12 years. As a long time holdout for using lead acid chemistry, I have to agree with Elon Musk now when he said, "lead sucks".?
You can still debate the cost benefit ratio of lead for some specialty applications but comparing the performance of lead to lithium is like comparing little league baseball to the major league.? Lithium is that much better, imo.
Capt. Carter
On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 06:57:55 AM EST, F. Neil < fneilss@...> wrote:
At >60 pounds per kWh, and limited 50% depth of discharge (for maximum lifespan), these Northstar carbon lead batteries are not really in the same class as Lifepo4 batteries for applications where energy density is an issue...?
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Excellent treatise, Kevin.? And no criticism here of the logic justifying using lead-acid batteries for displacement water craft propulsion based on the factors noted.? You could also add to the factors: Cycle Life.? A 2000-3000 charge cycle life is meaningless for most recreational boaters, let alone displacement craft that might only get used 1-2x/month.? In my case, this was a major factor in my early analysis for not considering lithium alternatives since most arguments for lithium vs lead are based on a 3-5x effective cycle improvement.? I mean, if, like me, you average only about 20-30 outings a year and assuming you only have to charge the pack 4x, that’s just 4 cycles per year (what I typically do now).? It’s hard to rationale paying more to improve cycle life when a perhaps 400 charge cycle life lead alternative would on paper last 100 years. ? But that’s not the whole picture with cycle life and lead.? Lead acid batteries usually die prematurely well before reaching the rated cycle life. ?Often 10x sooner, especially and mostly in cases where cycle time is very extended---and that is particularly the case with marine pleasure displacement craft like mine.? My boat went thru 3 sets of lead acid deep cycle golf cart batteries all of which sulfated prematurely because I could not keep them maintained as they needed to be to realize anything close to a long cycle life.? Further, as this progression deepened, in each case, it was a guess and a worry how much capacity my pack actually had after being charged. ?At some point you get really tired of this lack of dependability.? Not to mention the hassle to haul out a raft of lead each time and haul it off to the recycler. ?Have you seen how nasty the recycle process is with lead?? I suppose in the States it might be environmentally sound but there are videos online of it being done in an open air shop in places in India and I wonder how eco-friendly the whole process really is. ? Add to this the fact that there are a raft of ex-automotive EV battery packs out there with gobs of cycles and capacity left in them with cost/kwh that rivals or exceeds the cost for comparable lead-acid alternatives. ?Saving those packs from the recycler or junk heap has eco value.? And so, some of us here (e.g. me) have gone to lithium thru this path, reusing ex-land EV batteries for our boat propulsion.? Result: Affordable and high performance packs with high dependability in terms of absolutely knowing how much capacity your pack has left.? Packs that otherwise might have been left to rot on the auto junk heap, packs that can sit in our displacement craft for months unattended with zero degradation, very much unlike lead. ?Packs that will literally outlast our boats.? Replacing this pack in the future is no longer a necessity at all.? Hard to see the end-of-life recyclability as a big argument against lithium for low-cycle, displacement E-boat propulsion. ? Thanks for the points you made.? You made them well. J ? -Myles Twete, Portlandia ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kevin Pemberton
Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2023 8:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Li-ion battery designer commentary ? Yah! If you're loading your racing boat up with lithium and your wanting to plane, energy to weight ratio is big. However when displacement hulls are the major players weight becomes less of a factor.?
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Weight is a factor with big displacement boats, for an opposite reason.? For example,? I'll be taking out 10,000 lbs of Detroit Diesel 8v71s and installing motors weighing +/- 400 lbs. I need all the battery weight I can get.
On Sun, Jan 1, 2023 at 8:45 AM, Kevin Pemberton <pembertonkevin@...> wrote: Yah! If you're loading your racing boat up with lithium and your wanting to plane, energy to weight ratio is big. However when displacement hulls are the major players weight becomes less of a factor.?
If I consider my sailboat, it had 5000 lbs. Of lead bolted on the underside. Had a 5411 universal diesel originally installed. Battery density becomes a non-issue.?
I of course must take into account recyclable resource when I consider the avenue I take. Why? Well because I got into sail-electric to help the environment. This required my research into the processes used to make my components.?
So what are my components?
Used off grid solar panels, replacing aged sails. Reusing panels keeps those panels out of the landfills, and have a cost benefit. (Roughly 3000w used panels vary from rated values).?
Carbon lead Batteries not only have higher c ratings than lead acid, they have the same ability to be recycled. Recycling of lithium Batteries are a completely different subject.? As well as the strain on the environment during the initial refinement required.?
With the removal of sailing gear, the lead ballast can be replaced by lead Carbon power storage. (3000# ÷ 156#=53 NSB batteries). Not to say that you would need to, but the lead in the keel replaced by blues would be 2000amp hours at the typical 48volt system without changing the water line.?
48 volt 200ah bank was at the time of purchase 1800 usd. In conjunction with 3000 watt solar bank,? and 10kw drive. Keeps the battery bank usable at less than hull speed.?
In summary: if I were talking to a group of car enthusiasts, I would have to consider destroying the environment, but I am not! I am talking to a group of mostly displacement hull enthusiasts? what I am encouraged about is my post was considered.?
Have a wonderful day!! On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 8:45 AM twowheelinguy via <twowheelinguy= [email protected]> wrote:
I've heard good things about NorthStar batteries, and I've used the Trojan "carbon infused" batteries but I wasn't that impressed. Sure, they worked a lot better, but they still don't hold a candle to Lithium chemistry. And carbon infused lead batteries are a lot more expensive so that cancels out any cost advantage they might offer.? ?
The problem with lead chemistry is not it's capacity to store energy, it actually provides a pretty good value for that. The problem is you lose your ass putting the energy in and taking it out, especially if you want to do it in a hurry. If you have a system where you can charge slowly and only do low current draws with low depth of discharge, you could have argued that lead was a better value than lithium until recently. But now that you can buy a ready to use kWhr of lithium storage capacity for $250, lead has just about lost any price advantage it had and once it hit's $150/kWhr it will pretty much be game over for the lead battery industry. I don't think lead will ever completely be dead but it will soon be relegated to only very specialized applications imo.?
I'm on a cruise right now running my new lithium batteries hard for the first time and I can state UNEQUIVELENTLY they are definitely in another league than ANY lead batteries I've ever used or heard of and I've cruised the Arc over 5000 miles using various lead batteries over the last 12 years. As a long time holdout for using lead acid chemistry, I have to agree with Elon Musk now when he said, "lead sucks".?
You can still debate the cost benefit ratio of lead for some specialty applications but comparing the performance of lead to lithium is like comparing little league baseball to the major league.? Lithium is that much better, imo.
Capt. Carter
On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 06:57:55 AM EST, F. Neil < fneilss@...> wrote:
At >60 pounds per kWh, and limited 50% depth of discharge (for maximum lifespan), these Northstar carbon lead batteries are not really in the same class as Lifepo4 batteries for applications where energy density is an issue...?
|
