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Anyone uses a used EV car battery for powering ?
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Scouting for a useful and low-cost battery bank, I would like to know - are some of you using a used EV car battery (50-80% remaining) for powering your boat ? If so, how ? I would like to wait to spend BIG bucks for a large new bank, so this might be an alternative, until the battery technology has come up at a higher level. Cheers, Carsten |
开云体育I don't have first hand info on this but I do know of one installation on a 13,000lb monohull that just upgraded from Chevy Volt batteries to a bank made from the 280AH LiFePo4 cells that are currently very popular and have been discussed here.? A single 280AH bank replacing a a bank of four of the 48V Volt (apr. 200AH)? The report was that the new battery configuration is performing much better though I don't have any metrics.? But the recommendation was that the Chevy Volt batteries were not worth considering with better options now available at competitive costs.?A 48V 280AH bank from the Eve or LeiShen cells will cost between $1700 and $2000 USD including a BMS (like a Daly).? A similar sized bank from Chevy Volt batteries will be about $500 for each 48V 50AH unit.? So that's about $3000 for the same capacity but the BMS will be more complicated I think.? And those are not new cells but probably have a lot of life left and might be a good interim solution if you can find a good deal on 2 or 3 of them.? They are more easily scaled with the 48V units.? But they run at a slightly lower voltage than the LifePo4 cells I think.? Dan Pfeiffer ?
On 2021-06-03 10:31 am, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
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Hi, I've been lurking here in the group for a couple years now as the topics are interesting and sometimes give me ideas but not commenting much. But I thought I might add an option here as I had a similar situation where I wanted to get a bank at lower cost and the lithium batteries can sometimes seem somewhat prohibitive in price for large banks.? I went with a sealed marine battery.? You can find reputable group 31 sized 12V with 100+ AH for about $100 a piece.? For a 48V 300+AH bank, that would be 12 batteries for $1,200.? As long as they are sealed marine/deep cycle batteries they should work fine especially and without requiring any of the special chargers and/or accessories which can be significant additional costs. It does require some research to find reputable brands at reasonable prices but it can save you a lot of money for equivalent power as long as the motor that you are planning to use doesn't require particularly high output.? Even then you may be able to compensate by just increasing the size of your bank.? But these batteries are typically larger and heavier than an equivalent lithium bank so you will also need to be extra careful about bank placement and how it affects it's seaworthiness.
On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 3:56:00 PM PDT, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@...> wrote:
I don't have first hand info on this but I do know of one installation on a 13,000lb monohull that just upgraded from Chevy Volt batteries to a bank made from the 280AH LiFePo4 cells that are currently very popular and have been discussed here.? A single 280AH bank replacing a a bank of four of the 48V Volt (apr. 200AH)? The report was that the new battery configuration is performing much better though I don't have any metrics.? But the recommendation was that the Chevy Volt batteries were not worth considering with better options now available at competitive costs.? A 48V 280AH bank from the Eve or LeiShen cells will cost between $1700 and $2000 USD including a BMS (like a Daly).? A similar sized bank from Chevy Volt batteries will be about $500 for each 48V 50AH unit.? So that's about $3000 for the same capacity but the BMS will be more complicated I think.? And those are not new cells but probably have a lot of life left and might be a good interim solution if you can find a good deal on 2 or 3 of them.? They are more easily scaled with the 48V units.? But they run at a slightly lower voltage than the LifePo4 cells I think.? Dan Pfeiffer ?
On 2021-06-03 10:31 am, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
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开云体育Dan, Where did you source your 280AH lifepo4 cells? ? Marcel Bodsky ? ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2021 3:56 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [electricboats] Anyone uses a used EV car battery for powering ? ? ??CAUTION: This email originated from an external sender. Verify the source before opening links or attachments. ? ? I don't have first hand info on this but I do know of one installation on a 13,000lb monohull that just upgraded from Chevy Volt batteries to a
bank made from the 280AH LiFePo4 cells that are currently very popular and have been discussed here.? A single 280AH bank replacing a a bank of four of the 48V Volt (apr. 200AH)? The report was that the new battery configuration is performing much better though
I don't have any metrics.? But the recommendation was that the Chevy Volt batteries were not worth considering with better options now available at competitive costs.?
?
On 2021-06-03 10:31 am, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
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开云体育As usual, your mileage may vary. Truly, $1700-2000 for a 14kwh pack w/BMS is not a bad deal. That’s just about $120-140/kwh. And it’s true that some of the used EV packs and modules out there are being advertised at too high of a price for what they are worth. And it’s likely true that some of these module & BMS cards have issues. Still, there are deals out there AND the complexity of using packs made of modules with series strings themselves can be managed. ? Arguably, land-EV batteries are of the highest quality cells/module/packs designed, built and deployed.? Same story for the BMS systems.? And more and more you can find these, surplus or salvaged for very attractive rates.? Heck, if one has the time and room, you could purchase, then part out a salvaged EV while retaining the battery pack for a very low cost.? I almost did that a couple times with used THINK electrics. ? I use surplus Enerdel modules designed for use on a 2011 THINK EV for my boat’s pack.? I’ve paid a lot for this pack, particularly for the initial modules.? The last pack expansion added modules at a cost of around $500 ea (3kwh/module), or about $166/kwh for new, very high quality modules including remote BMS cards. ? Others have used Chevy Volt and other modules.? I would consider adding Chevy Volt modules to my pack (mainly because the earlier ones were 12S as my Enerdel modules are).? They’re also a handy size and I’m certain I could adapt Enerdel cell management cards to them (I have a ton of them).? A major factor for me going with lithium on my boat and for using Enerdel THINK modules is the fact that I own (and still drive) a 2011 THINK City electric.?? I now have over 70k miles on that car’s Enerdel pack and still love it.? Having spares for a car from a bankrupt company is a good feeling. ?That was my justification for leaving lead-acid with my boat. ? Anyway, people have different reasons for doing what they do. Just do the analysis and be clear about the reasons and the risks. Be aware that BMS and other electronics draw power and that power can draw a pack down while your boat sits idle at the marina. ?One Tesla owner recently related that her Tesla pack loses 3% charge for every 24hours.? It’s not the battery’s fault, but rather the design choice to value security over energy retention.? That car’s pack would brick within 30 days if not plugged in. ?Contrast that with my THINK City, which I left unplugged for 5 months and saw nearly no capacity drop. On my boat, I do not generally plug in and power my BMS. ?I see little need to do so regularly given I only charge 1x/2 or 3 months and the power rates are so low with my boat.? When I do plug in and power my BMS cards, there’s rarely a surprise---typically I have about 6 cell pairs out of 240 that droop or self-discharge more than the rest.? So there’s very little value added in powering my BMS cards 24:7, especially given that 1 bad decision or failed card or poor software could lead to depletion of a cell pair/module/pack before I realize it. ? Anyway, I’m rambling again. ? Again, YMMV- ? -MT ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2021 3:56 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [electricboats] Anyone uses a used EV car battery for powering ? ? I don't have first hand info on this but I do know of one installation on a 13,000lb monohull that just upgraded from Chevy Volt batteries to a bank made from the 280AH LiFePo4 cells that are currently very popular and have been discussed here.? A single 280AH bank replacing a a bank of four of the 48V Volt (apr. 200AH)? The report was that the new battery configuration is performing much better though I don't have any metrics.? But the recommendation was that the Chevy Volt batteries were not worth considering with better options now available at competitive costs.? ? On 2021-06-03 10:31 am, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
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Thanks, Myles ! Most used EV batteries are Li-Ion, except some odd ones, like Think City Zebra, which (as I read it) is a salt battery and needs some kind of heating before use. The trend for boats is to use LiFePO4. Is that for the safety of operation (no fires !), or for the charging/discharging benefits ? I guess both can be discharged 90%. Carsten
On Monday, 7 June 2021, 01:49:44 GMT+8, Myles Twete <matwete@...> wrote:
As usual, your mileage may vary. Truly, $1700-2000 for a 14kwh pack w/BMS is not a bad deal. That’s just about $120-140/kwh. And it’s true that some of the used EV packs and modules out there are being advertised at too high of a price for what they are worth. And it’s likely true that some of these module & BMS cards have issues. Still, there are deals out there AND the complexity of using packs made of modules with series strings themselves can be managed. ? Arguably, land-EV batteries are of the highest quality cells/module/packs designed, built and deployed.? Same story for the BMS systems.? And more and more you can find these, surplus or salvaged for very attractive rates.? Heck, if one has the time and room, you could purchase, then part out a salvaged EV while retaining the battery pack for a very low cost.? I almost did that a couple times with used THINK electrics. ? I use surplus Enerdel modules designed for use on a 2011 THINK EV for my boat’s pack.? I’ve paid a lot for this pack, particularly for the initial modules.? The last pack expansion added modules at a cost of around $500 ea (3kwh/module), or about $166/kwh for new, very high quality modules including remote BMS cards. ? Others have used Chevy Volt and other modules.? I would consider adding Chevy Volt modules to my pack (mainly because the earlier ones were 12S as my Enerdel modules are).? They’re also a handy size and I’m certain I could adapt Enerdel cell management cards to them (I have a ton of them).? A major factor for me going with lithium on my boat and for using Enerdel THINK modules is the fact that I own (and still drive) a 2011 THINK City electric.?? I now have over 70k miles on that car’s Enerdel pack and still love it.? Having spares for a car from a bankrupt company is a good feeling. ?That was my justification for leaving lead-acid with my boat. ? Anyway, people have different reasons for doing what they do. Just do the analysis and be clear about the reasons and the risks. Be aware that BMS and other electronics draw power and that power can draw a pack down while your boat sits idle at the marina. ?One Tesla owner recently related that her Tesla pack loses 3% charge for every 24hours.? It’s not the battery’s fault, but rather the design choice to value security over energy retention.? That car’s pack would brick within 30 days if not plugged in. ?Contrast that with my THINK City, which I left unplugged for 5 months and saw nearly no capacity drop. On my boat, I do not generally plug in and power my BMS. ?I see little need to do so regularly given I only charge 1x/2 or 3 months and the power rates are so low with my boat.? When I do plug in and power my BMS cards, there’s rarely a surprise---typically I have about 6 cell pairs out of 240 that droop or self-discharge more than the rest.? So there’s very little value added in powering my BMS cards 24:7, especially given that 1 bad decision or failed card or poor software could lead to depletion of a cell pair/module/pack before I realize it. ? Anyway, I’m rambling again. ? Again, YMMV- ? -MT ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2021 3:56 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [electricboats] Anyone uses a used EV car battery for powering ? ? I don't have first hand info on this but I do know of one installation on a 13,000lb monohull that just upgraded from Chevy Volt batteries to a bank made from the 280AH LiFePo4 cells that are currently very popular and have been discussed here.? A single 280AH bank replacing a a bank of four of the 48V Volt (apr. 200AH)? The report was that the new battery configuration is performing much better though I don't have any metrics.? But the recommendation was that the Chevy Volt batteries were not worth considering with better options now available at competitive costs.? ? On 2021-06-03 10:31 am, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
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开云体育?? Most used EV batteries are Li-Ion, except some odd ones, like Think City Zebra, which (as I read it) is a salt battery and needs some kind of heating before use. Yes, of course. ? ?? The trend for boats is to use LiFePO4.? Is that for the safety of operation (no fires !), or for the charging/discharging benefits ?? I guess both can be discharged 90%. If you’re a follower of trends, not sure why you are pursuing an E-boat… I converted my boat to electric in 2003 and wanted to since 1998 or so. There was nothing trendy about it.? And at that time, while we had LiFePO4 and even Zinc-Air battery options, affordability dictated lead acid for E-boat conversions.? And so, nearly everyone until maybe 2011 or so was using lead-acid.? Around that time we started to hear of folks using packs made from cheap LiFePO4 from China. ?And that has continued to the present.? If there is a trend, it is that since 2012, many folks have found it attractive to adapt used land-EV LiIon battery modules for their boats.? It may not be a majority, but it certainly has gone from zero to some percentage, vs LiFePO4 which surely jumped out of the gate earlier. ? As for safety, people have different levels of paranoia, perspective, risk tolerance and philosophy. ?I do not consider the marine environment I experience as any more risky than the under-car environment of my 2011 THINK in terms of likeliness of a cell to self-immolate.? And so, I have used super-high quality American LiIon since 2012 or so on my boat as I do with my car.? An advantage in safety is that these are in the original metal cases developed for these cells.? Is there risk?? Sure.? Is it mitigated?? Absolutely.? Is there enough scare for folks to be steering away from LiIon to LiFePO4---sure, some exaggerate the risks and others listen---then they order low cost LiFePO4 from China and are happy. ? As for charge/discharge %capacities and rates, I don’t think it’s a factor in folks’ choices. ? Not a trend follower… ? -Myles |
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Myles, it's great, that you are so much into this, with experience since 2003 and before ! That's what we need here. Well Myles, I said "the trend", not MY trend. If you look at eg. cruisersforum, you will see that it is a trend. A trend is, when most people follow that path. I'm asking this group questions of using used car batteries to make a useful bank, so I think that makes me not biased towards LiFePO4's in any way. Especially not, if they are shipped directly to you from China, without any decent quality control. If you order for a few thousand $$ as a private, you will definitely not be first in line to be shipped the top grade quality, that the car factories gets. Remember, in these days, everything you buy, produced in China, is solely controlled by local chinese supervisors !!! There are virtually NO western inspectors in China to check export goods anymore, due to very hard quarantine restrictions when entering China. No one wants to go to China now, just to sit quarantined alone in an appointed hotel room for 4 weeks. Carsten
On Friday, 11 June 2021, 02:45:21 GMT+8, Myles Twete <matwete@...> wrote:
?? Most used EV batteries are Li-Ion, except some odd ones, like Think City Zebra, which (as I read it) is a salt battery and needs some kind of heating before use. Yes, of course. ? ?? The trend for boats is to use LiFePO4.? Is that for the safety of operation (no fires !), or for the charging/discharging benefits ?? I guess both can be discharged 90%. If you’re a follower of trends, not sure why you are pursuing an E-boat… I converted my boat to electric in 2003 and wanted to since 1998 or so. There was nothing trendy about it.? And at that time, while we had LiFePO4 and even Zinc-Air battery options, affordability dictated lead acid for E-boat conversions.? And so, nearly everyone until maybe 2011 or so was using lead-acid.? Around that time we started to hear of folks using packs made from cheap LiFePO4 from China. ?And that has continued to the present.? If there is a trend, it is that since 2012, many folks have found it attractive to adapt used land-EV LiIon battery modules for their boats.? It may not be a majority, but it certainly has gone from zero to some percentage, vs LiFePO4 which surely jumped out of the gate earlier. ? As for safety, people have different levels of paranoia, perspective, risk tolerance and philosophy. ?I do not consider the marine environment I experience as any more risky than the under-car environment of my 2011 THINK in terms of likeliness of a cell to self-immolate.? And so, I have used super-high quality American LiIon since 2012 or so on my boat as I do with my car.? An advantage in safety is that these are in the original metal cases developed for these cells.? Is there risk?? Sure.? Is it mitigated?? Absolutely.? Is there enough scare for folks to be steering away from LiIon to LiFePO4---sure, some exaggerate the risks and others listen---then they order low cost LiFePO4 from China and are happy. ? As for charge/discharge %capacities and rates, I don’t think it’s a factor in folks’ choices. ? Not a trend follower… ? -Myles |
Hi Carsten,I wrote a long rant in response to your brief one:>Remember, in these days, everything you buy, produced in China, is solely controlled by local chinese supervisors !!!>There are virtually NO western inspectors in China to check export goods anymore, due to very hard quarantine restrictions when entering China. No one wants to go to China >now, just to sit quarantined alone in an appointed hotel room for 4 weeks.but I'll just summarize it.? This has nothing to do with China or Chinese.? This is short-term thinking driving the global race to the bottom.? None of us likes it, but many of us support it by purchasing products made in a factory.? But lest your statement be read as saying that western quality inspectors are superior to Chinese ones, I'll just say it ain't so.? They're all just doing their job, following instructions.? Short-term thinking dominates industry today and this is part of what has shifted factories to China. In my travels in China, I have found Chinese people to be just as compassionate, thoughtful, kind, loving, caring, attentive, creative, passionate, intelligent, etc. as people in other places in the world.? I'm very sad about the pollution and constraints on freedoms that they have to endure both at the workplace and in their personal time.? Reasons for avoiding China travel vary; my main one is that I don't want to risk my freedom taken away without due process as retaliation for some action taken elsewhere with due process, against a person with connections to the government of China.? Alright, it's longer than your rant, but at least it's shorter than it was!? :-) |
开云体育Back again to your question “How”, I would elaborate that I used unmodified Enerdel THINK 3kw modules (30-49v, ~42v nom), with each half-module connected in a 20P arrangement across the pack. ?Each has a 10amp (or was it 20?) fuse to ensure against any external short from destroying any battery and also to keep each battery from taking down the mains. ?BMS cards are original Enerdel (20 of them), powered by 12vDC when powered and data and programming via dual CAN bus communication with an Arduino DUE-based controller with SW I wrote.? It can be used to just get the latest data from all 240 cell pairs or to manage the cells (BMS) or can be arranged to control charger automatically and do the BMS.? The latter is currently not set up, but I did have that working once (until I discovered a relay had failed shorted due to lack of sufficient suppression). I only do BMS balancing now about every 6-18 months, or maybe 2-7 charge cycles. ? In case this helps… ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Carsten via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2021 8:31 AM To: Electricboats <[email protected]> Subject: [electricboats] Anyone uses a used EV car battery for powering ? ? Scouting for a useful and low-cost battery bank, I would like to know - are some of you using a used EV car battery (50-80% remaining) for powering your boat ? ? If so, how ? ? I would like to wait to spend BIG bucks for a large new bank, so this might be an alternative, until the battery technology has come up at a higher level. ? Cheers, Carsten |
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Battery hookup has covey volt batteries for sale now
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On Friday, June 11, 2021, 13:24, Myles Twete <matwete@...> wrote:
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Chevy
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On Sunday, June 13, 2021, 11:49, sw <v1opps@...> wrote:
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