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I would recommend checking out the ePropulsion outboards. I first bought an Elco 9.9 and was not happy with the noise and low efficiency. I then bought an ePropulsion Navy 6.0, which is much quieter, and much more efficient with its' larger 3 bladed props. The Elco is basically built on the bottom unit of a small-propped gas outboard, and loses efficiency in the 90 degree turn from the drive shaft to the prop, whereas the ePropulsion is a more modern design, with direct drive motor underwater that the prop is directly attached to. There are lower kW units that would be cheaper than the 6.0 that would be appropriate for your smaller (displacement?) boat.
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Sorry, that post was supposed to be a reply to the "3-5 Kw 48v motor" thread...
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I can’t imagine that the drive efficiency loss thru the “90 degree turn from drive shaft to prop” amounts to much.? The big loss is in using a small prop. My outboard conversion has served me well now since converting a 25HP 2-stroke Tohatsu to electric in 2003.? There are few with conversions or kits running today that predate this.? Thunderstruck Motors had started not long before this and had not yet offered its boat kits yet---I bought my ETEK from them after watching them drag race motorcycles in Oregon in 2003.? My telling them about my boat and buying the ETEK from them may have got them interested in targeting the boat market. Initially, I was not super impressed with the performance of my conversion, yet I was sold.? But then initially I was running with the stock 9.9” prop.? It did not take long before I modified my lower unit to accommodate up to a 14” prop.? I have been running with a 12” diameter 3-blade brass prop for about 18years now and have been quite pleased with the economy.? The amount of efficiency gain possible in going to 14” might be worth the expense and hassle, but probably only a small percentage.? Still, I may consider that one day. One thing I will never do: Eliminate the lower unit gearing for some other drive or relocation of the motor to an underwater pod. I do need to replace my original ETEK 8HP motor very soon.? It’s served me well for 19 years+ now, but with 3 sets of brushes nearly gone now and none available anywhere these days, I need to upgrade.? I’m considering brush and brushless options. -Myles Twete, Portland, Or. The Reach of Tide: ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of F. Neil
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion ? I would recommend checking out the ePropulsion outboards. I first bought an Elco 9.9 and was not happy with the noise and low efficiency. I then bought an ePropulsion Navy 6.0, which is much quieter, and much more efficient with its' larger 3 bladed props. The Elco is basically built on the bottom unit of a small-propped gas outboard, and loses efficiency in the 90 degree turn from the drive shaft to the prop, whereas the ePropulsion is a more modern design, with direct drive motor underwater that the prop is directly attached to. There are lower kW units that would be cheaper than the 6.0 that would be appropriate for your smaller (displacement?) boat.
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Miles and F Neil,
??? Thanks for the info. For the 12 foot dinghy I have a 1.2 kw Hang Kai, which like the Elco is a gas lower end modification. Small prop. I've looked around St Thomas at what people have and there are a ton of inoperative Torqueedos and I do have a friend with an Epropulsion 3.0 which he likes. The Elco is too big for the boat. I consulted with a boat designer friend who's a drag expert and he said it should run at 10 knots on 700 watts. So I'm going to put it in the water and test it with the small motor and see if it's acceptable.
??? I've noticed that 2 kw and under ebike and gocart motors are getting really cheap on Amazon. If one were to make an outboard leg out of these the most expensive part seems to be the right angle gearbox for the lower end. I found an industrial/farming type that would work but it's not water sealed. Anyone know of one? I agree with Myles that I don't want an underwater motor type unit. What I'd like to do is make a really lightweight leg out of mostly carbon that could swing big props and that is bulletproof. Then use the cheap motors and replace them as needed. It looks like the quality smaller motors like the Etek and Mars have almost disappeared.
??? I'll write back once I test the boat with the small motor, it might be enough power.
Thanks,
Jerry Barth
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On October 31, 2022, at 1:46 PM, Myles Twete <matwete@...> wrote: I can’t imagine that the drive efficiency loss thru the “90 degree turn from drive shaft to prop” amounts to much.? The big loss is in using a small prop. My outboard conversion has served me well now since converting a 25HP 2-stroke Tohatsu to electric in 2003.? There are few with conversions or kits running today that predate this.? Thunderstruck Motors had started not long before this and had not yet offered its boat kits yet---I bought my ETEK from them after watching them drag race motorcycles in Oregon in 2003.? My telling them about my boat and buying the ETEK from them may have got them interested in targeting the boat market. Initially, I was not super impressed with the performance of my conversion, yet I was sold.? But then initially I was running with the stock 9.9” prop.? It did not take long before I modified my lower unit to accommodate up to a 14” prop.? I have been running with a 12” diameter 3-blade brass prop for about 18years now and have been quite pleased with the economy.? The amount of efficiency gain possible in going to 14” might be worth the expense and hassle, but probably only a small percentage.? Still, I may consider that one day. One thing I will never do: Eliminate the lower unit gearing for some other drive or relocation of the motor to an underwater pod. I do need to replace my original ETEK 8HP motor very soon.? It’s served me well for 19 years+ now, but with 3 sets of brushes nearly gone now and none available anywhere these days, I need to upgrade.? I’m considering brush and brushless options. -Myles Twete, Portland, Or. The Reach of Tide: ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of F. Neil
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion ? I would recommend checking out the ePropulsion outboards. I first bought an Elco 9.9 and was not happy with the noise and low efficiency. I then bought an ePropulsion Navy 6.0, which is much quieter, and much more efficient with its' larger 3 bladed props. The Elco is basically built on the bottom unit of a small-propped gas outboard, and loses efficiency in the 90 degree turn from the drive shaft to the prop, whereas the ePropulsion is a more modern design, with direct drive motor underwater that the prop is directly attached to. There are lower kW units that would be cheaper than the 6.0 that would be appropriate for your smaller (displacement?) boat.
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Hi Jerry,?
Did you say what kind of boat you have? 10 knots at 700 watts sounds like a dream. I imagine 700 watts is the propulsive power At the prop? So motor watts will be something like 1200?? Matt Foley
Sunlight Conversions? 1-201-914-0466 Sunlightconversions.com Instagram:sunlightconversions WeChat: Mattymoonshine
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On Oct 31, 2022, at 4:49 PM, shredderf16 <Shredderf16@...> wrote:
? Miles and F Neil,
??? Thanks for the info. For the 12 foot dinghy I have a 1.2 kw Hang Kai, which like the Elco is a gas lower end modification. Small prop. I've looked around St Thomas at what people have and there are a ton of inoperative Torqueedos and I do have a friend with an Epropulsion 3.0 which he likes. The Elco is too big for the boat. I consulted with a boat designer friend who's a drag expert and he said it should run at 10 knots on 700 watts. So I'm going to put it in the water and test it with the small motor and see if it's acceptable.
??? I've noticed that 2 kw and under ebike and gocart motors are getting really cheap on Amazon. If one were to make an outboard leg out of these the most expensive part seems to be the right angle gearbox for the lower end. I found an industrial/farming type that would work but it's not water sealed. Anyone know of one? I agree with Myles that I don't want an underwater motor type unit. What I'd like to do is make a really lightweight leg out of mostly carbon that could swing big props and that is bulletproof. Then use the cheap motors and replace them as needed. It looks like the quality smaller motors like the Etek and Mars have almost disappeared.
??? I'll write back once I test the boat with the small motor, it might be enough power.
Thanks,
Jerry Barth
On October 31, 2022, at 1:46 PM, Myles Twete <matwete@...> wrote:
I can’t imagine that the drive efficiency loss thru the “90 degree turn from drive shaft to prop” amounts to much.? The big loss is in using a small prop. My outboard conversion has served me well now since converting a 25HP 2-stroke Tohatsu to electric in 2003.? There are few with conversions or kits running today that predate this.? Thunderstruck Motors had started not long before this and had not yet offered its boat kits yet---I bought my ETEK from them after watching them drag race motorcycles in Oregon in 2003.? My telling them about my boat and buying the ETEK from them may have got them interested in targeting the boat market. Initially, I was not super impressed with the performance of my conversion, yet I was sold.? But then initially I was running with the stock 9.9” prop.? It did not take long before I modified my lower unit to accommodate up to a 14” prop.? I have been running with a 12” diameter 3-blade brass prop for about 18years now and have been quite pleased with the economy.? The amount of efficiency gain possible in going to 14” might be worth the expense and hassle, but probably only a small percentage.? Still, I may consider that one day. One thing I will never do: Eliminate the lower unit gearing for some other drive or relocation of the motor to an underwater pod. I do need to replace my original ETEK 8HP motor very soon.? It’s served me well for 19 years+ now, but with 3 sets of brushes nearly gone now and none available anywhere these days, I need to upgrade.? I’m considering brush and brushless options. -Myles Twete, Portland, Or. The Reach of Tide: ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of F. Neil
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion ? I would recommend checking out the ePropulsion outboards. I first bought an Elco 9.9 and was not happy with the noise and low efficiency. I then bought an ePropulsion Navy 6.0, which is much quieter, and much more efficient with its' larger 3 bladed props. The Elco is basically built on the bottom unit of a small-propped gas outboard, and loses efficiency in the 90 degree turn from the drive shaft to the prop, whereas the ePropulsion is a more modern design, with direct drive motor underwater that the prop is directly attached to. There are lower kW units that would be cheaper than the 6.0 that would be appropriate for your smaller (displacement?) boat.
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On the PM brush motors similar to the ETEK, this is a decent read: My translation: The ETEK went bye-bye many years ago (before 2009).? ETEK’s design was based on the Lynch motor design (LEMCO or LMC) and Agni Motors followed.? John Fiorenza who had been involved in ETEK motors went and started producing similar motors under the new Mars Electric label which produced the ETEK-R and ETEK-RT motors.? Then along the way came the PermPMG (now Heinzmann?) motors which like the motors by Lynch and the Agni motors were axial flux and higher efficiency than the original ETEK.? ETEK-R, ETEK-RT (names given by resellers and not MARS) and other perm magnet brush motors we have seen are radial flux motors.? Mars later came out with ME0708, ME0709 and other models of axial flux motors. PMG (earlier Cupex) was to be a supplier for Lynch but instead went off and started making their own high performance axial flux motors (PMG 132) based on the Lynch design.? Later, Motenergy seems to have picked up the MARS line of motors and appears to still produce several radial flux brush motors (new and used seen on Ebay and from suppliers like ).? Others also have a full line of Motenergy radial flux brushmotor options, e.g. here: ($400-800 ish range). I still see European sources listing Heinzmann PMG132, Agni and Motenergy motor versions as with this site in France: I purchased a set of “ETEK” brushes from them but they turned out to be brushes for a PMG132. ?Now it looks like they may have the ETEK style brushes so I might have to take a chance on them…would at least keep the boat going for another few years without forcing an upgrade… ? In case this helps… ? -MT ? ? ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of shredderf16
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 1:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion ? Miles and F Neil,
??? Thanks for the info. For the 12 foot dinghy I have a 1.2 kw Hang Kai, which like the Elco is a gas lower end modification. Small prop. I've looked around St Thomas at what people have and there are a ton of inoperative Torqueedos and I do have a friend with an Epropulsion 3.0 which he likes. The Elco is too big for the boat. I consulted with a boat designer friend who's a drag expert and he said it should run at 10 knots on 700 watts. So I'm going to put it in the water and test it with the small motor and see if it's acceptable. ??? I've noticed that 2 kw and under ebike and gocart motors are getting really cheap on Amazon. If one were to make an outboard leg out of these the most expensive part seems to be the right angle gearbox for the lower end. I found an industrial/farming type that would work but it's not water sealed. Anyone know of one? I agree with Myles that I don't want an underwater motor type unit. What I'd like to do is make a really lightweight leg out of mostly carbon that could swing big props and that is bulletproof. Then use the cheap motors and replace them as needed. It looks like the quality smaller motors like the Etek and Mars have almost disappeared. ??? I'll write back once I test the boat with the small motor, it might be enough power.
Thanks,
Jerry Barth
On October 31, 2022, at 1:46 PM, Myles Twete <matwete@...> wrote:
I can’t imagine that the drive efficiency loss thru the “90 degree turn from drive shaft to prop” amounts to much.? The big loss is in using a small prop. My outboard conversion has served me well now since converting a 25HP 2-stroke Tohatsu to electric in 2003.? There are few with conversions or kits running today that predate this.? Thunderstruck Motors had started not long before this and had not yet offered its boat kits yet---I bought my ETEK from them after watching them drag race motorcycles in Oregon in 2003.? My telling them about my boat and buying the ETEK from them may have got them interested in targeting the boat market. Initially, I was not super impressed with the performance of my conversion, yet I was sold.? But then initially I was running with the stock 9.9” prop.? It did not take long before I modified my lower unit to accommodate up to a 14” prop.? I have been running with a 12” diameter 3-blade brass prop for about 18years now and have been quite pleased with the economy.? The amount of efficiency gain possible in going to 14” might be worth the expense and hassle, but probably only a small percentage.? Still, I may consider that one day. One thing I will never do: Eliminate the lower unit gearing for some other drive or relocation of the motor to an underwater pod. I do need to replace my original ETEK 8HP motor very soon.? It’s served me well for 19 years+ now, but with 3 sets of brushes nearly gone now and none available anywhere these days, I need to upgrade.? I’m considering brush and brushless options. -Myles Twete, Portland, Or. The Reach of Tide: ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of F. Neil
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion ? I would recommend checking out the ePropulsion outboards. I first bought an Elco 9.9 and was not happy with the noise and low efficiency. I then bought an ePropulsion Navy 6.0, which is much quieter, and much more efficient with its' larger 3 bladed props. The Elco is basically built on the bottom unit of a small-propped gas outboard, and loses efficiency in the 90 degree turn from the drive shaft to the prop, whereas the ePropulsion is a more modern design, with direct drive motor underwater that the prop is directly attached to. There are lower kW units that would be cheaper than the 6.0 that would be appropriate for your smaller (displacement?) boat.
|
Update: I’m excited.? I just placed an order for new brushes for my original ETEK motor.? Found that Thunderstruck has them again.? We’ll see if they fit. ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion? I can’t imagine that the drive efficiency loss thru the “90 degree turn from drive shaft to prop” amounts to much.? The big loss is in using a small prop. My outboard conversion has served me well now since converting a 25HP 2-stroke Tohatsu to electric in 2003.? There are few with conversions or kits running today that predate this.? Thunderstruck Motors had started not long before this and had not yet offered its boat kits yet---I bought my ETEK from them after watching them drag race motorcycles in Oregon in 2003.? My telling them about my boat and buying the ETEK from them may have got them interested in targeting the boat market. Initially, I was not super impressed with the performance of my conversion, yet I was sold.? But then initially I was running with the stock 9.9” prop.? It did not take long before I modified my lower unit to accommodate up to a 14” prop.? I have been running with a 12” diameter 3-blade brass prop for about 18years now and have been quite pleased with the economy.? The amount of efficiency gain possible in going to 14” might be worth the expense and hassle, but probably only a small percentage.? Still, I may consider that one day. One thing I will never do: Eliminate the lower unit gearing for some other drive or relocation of the motor to an underwater pod. I do need to replace my original ETEK 8HP motor very soon.? It’s served me well for 19 years+ now, but with 3 sets of brushes nearly gone now and none available anywhere these days, I need to upgrade.? I’m considering brush and brushless options. -Myles Twete, Portland, Or. The Reach of Tide: ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of F. Neil
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion ? I would recommend checking out the ePropulsion outboards. I first bought an Elco 9.9 and was not happy with the noise and low efficiency. I then bought an ePropulsion Navy 6.0, which is much quieter, and much more efficient with its' larger 3 bladed props. The Elco is basically built on the bottom unit of a small-propped gas outboard, and loses efficiency in the 90 degree turn from the drive shaft to the prop, whereas the ePropulsion is a more modern design, with direct drive motor underwater that the prop is directly attached to. There are lower kW units that would be cheaper than the 6.0 that would be appropriate for your smaller (displacement?) boat.
|
That’s interesting about all the inoperative torqueedos. I’d be interested to hear what the failures are. They are pretty highly regarded from what I’ve seen. Also interested to hear why the aversion to direct drive? I do see the potential problem of leakage which would pretty much destroy the motor ( just gave up on a trolling motor that has leaked).?
I did however just buy an epropulsion spirit plus for my pontoon boat. Higher capacity battery (that floats!) and no surcharge for long shaft. Can’t wait to try it out.?
These motors are relatively expensive, but I’m paying for convenience. My daughter will be the main skipper on the pontoon boat and lugging a 12v marine battery for a trolling motor, or fooling with 2 ?cycle ?gas mix and pull starting a gas outboard detracts from enjoying time on the lake.? -Steve
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On Oct 31, 2022, at 4:49 PM, shredderf16 <Shredderf16@...> wrote:
? Miles and F Neil,
??? Thanks for the info. For the 12 foot dinghy I have a 1.2 kw Hang Kai, which like the Elco is a gas lower end modification. Small prop. I've looked around St Thomas at what people have and there are a ton of inoperative Torqueedos and I do have a friend with an Epropulsion 3.0 which he likes. The Elco is too big for the boat. I consulted with a boat designer friend who's a drag expert and he said it should run at 10 knots on 700 watts. So I'm going to put it in the water and test it with the small motor and see if it's acceptable.
??? I've noticed that 2 kw and under ebike and gocart motors are getting really cheap on Amazon. If one were to make an outboard leg out of these the most expensive part seems to be the right angle gearbox for the lower end. I found an industrial/farming type that would work but it's not water sealed. Anyone know of one? I agree with Myles that I don't want an underwater motor type unit. What I'd like to do is make a really lightweight leg out of mostly carbon that could swing big props and that is bulletproof. Then use the cheap motors and replace them as needed. It looks like the quality smaller motors like the Etek and Mars have almost disappeared.
??? I'll write back once I test the boat with the small motor, it might be enough power.
Thanks,
Jerry Barth
On October 31, 2022, at 1:46 PM, Myles Twete <matwete@...> wrote:
I can’t imagine that the drive efficiency loss thru the “90 degree turn from drive shaft to prop” amounts to much.? The big loss is in using a small prop. My outboard conversion has served me well now since converting a 25HP 2-stroke Tohatsu to electric in 2003.? There are few with conversions or kits running today that predate this.? Thunderstruck Motors had started not long before this and had not yet offered its boat kits yet---I bought my ETEK from them after watching them drag race motorcycles in Oregon in 2003.? My telling them about my boat and buying the ETEK from them may have got them interested in targeting the boat market. Initially, I was not super impressed with the performance of my conversion, yet I was sold.? But then initially I was running with the stock 9.9” prop.? It did not take long before I modified my lower unit to accommodate up to a 14” prop.? I have been running with a 12” diameter 3-blade brass prop for about 18years now and have been quite pleased with the economy.? The amount of efficiency gain possible in going to 14” might be worth the expense and hassle, but probably only a small percentage.? Still, I may consider that one day. One thing I will never do: Eliminate the lower unit gearing for some other drive or relocation of the motor to an underwater pod. I do need to replace my original ETEK 8HP motor very soon.? It’s served me well for 19 years+ now, but with 3 sets of brushes nearly gone now and none available anywhere these days, I need to upgrade.? I’m considering brush and brushless options. -Myles Twete, Portland, Or. The Reach of Tide: ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of F. Neil
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion ? I would recommend checking out the ePropulsion outboards. I first bought an Elco 9.9 and was not happy with the noise and low efficiency. I then bought an ePropulsion Navy 6.0, which is much quieter, and much more efficient with its' larger 3 bladed props. The Elco is basically built on the bottom unit of a small-propped gas outboard, and loses efficiency in the 90 degree turn from the drive shaft to the prop, whereas the ePropulsion is a more modern design, with direct drive motor underwater that the prop is directly attached to. There are lower kW units that would be cheaper than the 6.0 that would be appropriate for your smaller (displacement?) boat.
|
I looked into elco eprop and torqueedo. I went with eprop but have not been able to use it yet.
I went with the navy 30 which is more than I need for my little trimaran.
Do we know anyone custom printing props that could give me a prop with bit more speed? Both torq and eprop are limited to just under 10 k by their props. This is understandable for motor protection on a larger boat but my little boat is very easily driven
Nick
Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
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-------- Original message -------- From: "steve sawtelle via groups.io" <swsyah@...> Date: 2022-10-31 8:13 p.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion
That’s interesting about all the inoperative torqueedos. I’d be interested to hear what the failures are. They are pretty highly regarded from what I’ve seen. Also interested to hear why the aversion to direct drive? I do see the potential problem of leakage which would pretty much destroy the motor ( just gave up on a trolling motor that has leaked).?
I did however just buy an epropulsion spirit plus for my pontoon boat. Higher capacity battery (that floats!) and no surcharge for long shaft. Can’t wait to try it out.?
These motors are relatively expensive, but I’m paying for convenience. My daughter will be the main skipper on the pontoon boat and lugging a 12v marine battery for a trolling motor, or fooling with 2 ?cycle ?gas mix and pull starting a gas outboard detracts from enjoying time on the lake.? -Steve On Oct 31, 2022, at 4:49 PM, shredderf16 <Shredderf16@...> wrote:
? Miles and F Neil,
??? Thanks for the info. For the 12 foot dinghy I have a 1.2 kw Hang Kai, which like the Elco is a gas lower end modification. Small prop. I've looked around St Thomas at what people have and there are a ton of inoperative Torqueedos and I do have a friend with an Epropulsion 3.0 which he likes. The Elco is too big for the boat. I consulted with a boat designer friend who's a drag expert and he said it should run at 10 knots on 700 watts. So I'm going to put it in the water and test it with the small motor and see if it's acceptable.
??? I've noticed that 2 kw and under ebike and gocart motors are getting really cheap on Amazon. If one were to make an outboard leg out of these the most expensive part seems to be the right angle gearbox for the lower end. I found an industrial/farming type that would work but it's not water sealed. Anyone know of one? I agree with Myles that I don't want an underwater motor type unit. What I'd like to do is make a really lightweight leg out of mostly carbon that could swing big props and that is bulletproof. Then use the cheap motors and replace them as needed. It looks like the quality smaller motors like the Etek and Mars have almost disappeared.
??? I'll write back once I test the boat with the small motor, it might be enough power.
Thanks,
Jerry Barth
On October 31, 2022, at 1:46 PM, Myles Twete <matwete@...> wrote:
I can’t imagine that the drive efficiency loss thru the “90 degree turn from drive shaft to prop” amounts to much.? The big loss is in using a small prop. My outboard conversion has served me well now since converting a 25HP 2-stroke Tohatsu to electric in 2003.? There are few with conversions or kits running today that predate this.? Thunderstruck Motors had started not long before this and had not yet offered its boat kits yet---I bought my ETEK from them after watching them drag race motorcycles in Oregon in 2003.? My telling them about my boat and buying the ETEK from them may have got them interested in targeting the boat market. Initially, I was not super impressed with the performance of my conversion, yet I was sold.? But then initially I was running with the stock 9.9” prop.? It did not take long before I modified my lower unit to accommodate up to a 14” prop.? I have been running with a 12” diameter 3-blade brass prop for about 18years now and have been quite pleased with the economy.? The amount of efficiency gain possible in going to 14” might be worth the expense and hassle, but probably only a small percentage.? Still, I may consider that one day. One thing I will never do: Eliminate the lower unit gearing for some other drive or relocation of the motor to an underwater pod. I do need to replace my original ETEK 8HP motor very soon.? It’s served me well for 19 years+ now, but with 3 sets of brushes nearly gone now and none available anywhere these days, I need to upgrade.? I’m considering brush and brushless options. -Myles Twete, Portland, Or. The Reach of Tide: ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of F. Neil
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion ? I would recommend checking out the ePropulsion outboards. I first bought an Elco 9.9 and was not happy with the noise and low efficiency. I then bought an ePropulsion Navy 6.0, which is much quieter, and much more efficient with its' larger 3 bladed props. The Elco is basically built on the bottom unit of a small-propped gas outboard, and loses efficiency in the 90 degree turn from the drive shaft to the prop, whereas the ePropulsion is a more modern design, with direct drive motor underwater that the prop is directly attached to. There are lower kW units that would be cheaper than the 6.0 that would be appropriate for your smaller (displacement?) boat.
|
Ray motors are old design but I find them very reliable.? I have a 60V on a 24 ft pontoon.? Years without any trouble.? I would do a 48V next time though. Harry M
Miles and F Neil,
??? Thanks for the info. For the 12 foot dinghy I have a 1.2 kw Hang Kai, which like the Elco is a gas lower end modification. Small prop. I've looked around St Thomas at what people have and there are a ton of inoperative Torqueedos and I do have a friend with an Epropulsion 3.0 which he likes. The Elco is too big for the boat. I consulted with a boat designer friend who's a drag expert and he said it should run at 10 knots on 700 watts. So I'm going to put it in the water and test it with the small motor and see if it's acceptable.
??? I've noticed that 2 kw and under ebike and gocart motors are getting really cheap on Amazon. If one were to make an outboard leg out of these the most expensive part seems to be the right angle gearbox for the lower end. I found an industrial/farming type that would work but it's not water sealed. Anyone know of one? I agree with Myles that I don't want an underwater motor type unit. What I'd like to do is make a really lightweight leg out of mostly carbon that could swing big props and that is bulletproof. Then use the cheap motors and replace them as needed. It looks like the quality smaller motors like the Etek and Mars have almost disappeared.
??? I'll write back once I test the boat with the small motor, it might be enough power.
Thanks,
Jerry Barth
On October 31, 2022, at 1:46 PM, Myles Twete <matwete@...> wrote:
I can’t imagine that the drive efficiency loss thru the “90 degree turn from drive shaft to prop” amounts to much.? The big loss is in using a small prop. My outboard conversion has served me well now since converting a 25HP 2-stroke Tohatsu to electric in 2003.? There are few with conversions or kits running today that predate this.? Thunderstruck Motors had started not long before this and had not yet offered its boat kits yet---I bought my ETEK from them after watching them drag race motorcycles in Oregon in 2003.? My telling them about my boat and buying the ETEK from them may have got them interested in targeting the boat market. Initially, I was not super impressed with the performance of my conversion, yet I was sold.? But then initially I was running with the stock 9.9” prop.? It did not take long before I modified my lower unit to accommodate up to a 14” prop.? I have been running with a 12” diameter 3-blade brass prop for about 18years now and have been quite pleased with the economy.? The amount of efficiency gain possible in going to 14” might be worth the expense and hassle, but probably only a small percentage.? Still, I may consider that one day. One thing I will never do: Eliminate the lower unit gearing for some other drive or relocation of the motor to an underwater pod. I do need to replace my original ETEK 8HP motor very soon.? It’s served me well for 19 years+ now, but with 3 sets of brushes nearly gone now and none available anywhere these days, I need to upgrade.? I’m considering brush and brushless options. -Myles Twete, Portland, Or. The Reach of Tide: ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of F. Neil
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion ? I would recommend checking out the ePropulsion outboards. I first bought an Elco 9.9 and was not happy with the noise and low efficiency. I then bought an ePropulsion Navy 6.0, which is much quieter, and much more efficient with its' larger 3 bladed props. The Elco is basically built on the bottom unit of a small-propped gas outboard, and loses efficiency in the 90 degree turn from the drive shaft to the prop, whereas the ePropulsion is a more modern design, with direct drive motor underwater that the prop is directly attached to. There are lower kW units that would be cheaper than the 6.0 that would be appropriate for your smaller (displacement?) boat.
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Do we know anyone custom printing props that could give me a prop with bit more speed?
For a small, easily driven boat, look at APC props. They produce mostly for the R/C airplane market, but have also started producing marine props for human-propelled boats (used by some R2AK entrants). I've been using an APC 11x6 sport prop with a 480W motor to move my Windrider 16 trimaran. Top speed above 8km/h. Not bad for a $5 plastic prop - although I also added a spinner to reduce drag under water.
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Thanks I will look into them
Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
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-------- Original message -------- From: "cpcanoesailor via groups.io" <cpcanoesailor@...> Date: 2022-11-01 10:39 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion
Do we know anyone custom printing props that could give me a prop with bit more speed?
For a small, easily driven boat, look at APC props. They produce mostly for the R/C airplane market, but have also started producing marine props for human-propelled boats (used by some R2AK entrants). I've been using an APC 11x6 sport prop with a 480W motor to move my Windrider 16 trimaran. Top speed above 8km/h. Not bad for a $5 plastic prop - although I also added a spinner to reduce drag under water.
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Matt,
??? Yes the boat is very efficient. Craig Clos in Australia designed it. He's a retired guy whose hobby is hydrodynamics. He recently finished an 8 meter long cabin cruiser with all the amenities that makes 22 knots on two 30 hp gas engines. My dinghy is a slightly stretched version of this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SA6cDk2Imb0
???? These are pretty much full displacement boats that are designed for a specific speed range. The dinghy above does 14 knots on 3 hp gas. He later put a Yamaha 9.9 on it and got 15 knots. So the top end is very cliff like.
???? He sells plans through the gmail account. They are very good. He might take a while to respond while he's cruising. A lot of this has to do with keeping the weight down. 3/4 of way thru building I think my 12 foot divinylcell dinghy will be 120 lbs without motors and batteries.
???? Myles, thanks for the motor info. Explains a lot.
Jerry
On November 1, 2022, at 7:38 AM, Harry Michalowski <harrymichalowski@...> wrote: Ray motors are old design but I find them very reliable.? I have a 60V on a 24 ft pontoon.? Years without any trouble.? I would do a 48V next time though. Harry M Miles and F Neil,
??? Thanks for the info. For the 12 foot dinghy I have a 1.2 kw Hang Kai, which like the Elco is a gas lower end modification. Small prop. I've looked around St Thomas at what people have and there are a ton of inoperative Torqueedos and I do have a friend with an Epropulsion 3.0 which he likes. The Elco is too big for the boat. I consulted with a boat designer friend who's a drag expert and he said it should run at 10 knots on 700 watts. So I'm going to put it in the water and test it with the small motor and see if it's acceptable.
??? I've noticed that 2 kw and under ebike and gocart motors are getting really cheap on Amazon. If one were to make an outboard leg out of these the most expensive part seems to be the right angle gearbox for the lower end. I found an industrial/farming type that would work but it's not water sealed. Anyone know of one? I agree with Myles that I don't want an underwater motor type unit. What I'd like to do is make a really lightweight leg out of mostly carbon that could swing big props and that is bulletproof. Then use the cheap motors and replace them as needed. It looks like the quality smaller motors like the Etek and Mars have almost disappeared.
??? I'll write back once I test the boat with the small motor, it might be enough power.
Thanks,
Jerry Barth
On October 31, 2022, at 1:46 PM, Myles Twete <matwete@...> wrote:
I can’t imagine that the drive efficiency loss thru the “90 degree turn from drive shaft to prop” amounts to much.? The big loss is in using a small prop. My outboard conversion has served me well now since converting a 25HP 2-stroke Tohatsu to electric in 2003.? There are few with conversions or kits running today that predate this.? Thunderstruck Motors had started not long before this and had not yet offered its boat kits yet---I bought my ETEK from them after watching them drag race motorcycles in Oregon in 2003.? My telling them about my boat and buying the ETEK from them may have got them interested in targeting the boat market. Initially, I was not super impressed with the performance of my conversion, yet I was sold.? But then initially I was running with the stock 9.9” prop.? It did not take long before I modified my lower unit to accommodate up to a 14” prop.? I have been running with a 12” diameter 3-blade brass prop for about 18years now and have been quite pleased with the economy.? The amount of efficiency gain possible in going to 14” might be worth the expense and hassle, but probably only a small percentage.? Still, I may consider that one day. One thing I will never do: Eliminate the lower unit gearing for some other drive or relocation of the motor to an underwater pod. I do need to replace my original ETEK 8HP motor very soon.? It’s served me well for 19 years+ now, but with 3 sets of brushes nearly gone now and none available anywhere these days, I need to upgrade.? I’m considering brush and brushless options. -Myles Twete, Portland, Or. The Reach of Tide: ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of F. Neil
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion ? I would recommend checking out the ePropulsion outboards. I first bought an Elco 9.9 and was not happy with the noise and low efficiency. I then bought an ePropulsion Navy 6.0, which is much quieter, and much more efficient with its' larger 3 bladed props. The Elco is basically built on the bottom unit of a small-propped gas outboard, and loses efficiency in the 90 degree turn from the drive shaft to the prop, whereas the ePropulsion is a more modern design, with direct drive motor underwater that the prop is directly attached to. There are lower kW units that would be cheaper than the 6.0 that would be appropriate for your smaller (displacement?) boat.
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Steve,
???? I think a lot of it has to do with location. St Thomas tends to collect a lot of ruined boats, dreams, and peeps! Guys get a boat in the states, load up the significant other and head out. A year later the girlfriend has had it and all the stuff on the boat is breaking just as they arrive in the Virgin Islands.
????? I can't tell you how many junked and abandoned rib dinghies we have here. Once the tubes go bad they junk instead of fix. Torqueedo had big corrosion problems early on (article in Pro Boatbuilder). They fixed it but I suspect a lot of those early units ended up here. Coupled with the proprietary battery might be why there are a bunch of broke ones.
Jerry
On October 31, 2022, at 7:13 PM, "steve sawtelle via groups.io" <swsyah@...> wrote: That’s interesting about all the inoperative torqueedos. I’d be interested to hear what the failures are. They are pretty highly regarded from what I’ve seen. Also interested to hear why the aversion to direct drive? I do see the potential problem of leakage which would pretty much destroy the motor ( just gave up on a trolling motor that has leaked).?
I did however just buy an epropulsion spirit plus for my pontoon boat. Higher capacity battery (that floats!) and no surcharge for long shaft. Can’t wait to try it out.?
These motors are relatively expensive, but I’m paying for convenience. My daughter will be the main skipper on the pontoon boat and lugging a 12v marine battery for a trolling motor, or fooling with 2 ?cycle ?gas mix and pull starting a gas outboard detracts from enjoying time on the lake.? -Steve ? Miles and F Neil,
??? Thanks for the info. For the 12 foot dinghy I have a 1.2 kw Hang Kai, which like the Elco is a gas lower end modification. Small prop. I've looked around St Thomas at what people have and there are a ton of inoperative Torqueedos and I do have a friend with an Epropulsion 3.0 which he likes. The Elco is too big for the boat. I consulted with a boat designer friend who's a drag expert and he said it should run at 10 knots on 700 watts. So I'm going to put it in the water and test it with the small motor and see if it's acceptable.
??? I've noticed that 2 kw and under ebike and gocart motors are getting really cheap on Amazon. If one were to make an outboard leg out of these the most expensive part seems to be the right angle gearbox for the lower end. I found an industrial/farming type that would work but it's not water sealed. Anyone know of one? I agree with Myles that I don't want an underwater motor type unit. What I'd like to do is make a really lightweight leg out of mostly carbon that could swing big props and that is bulletproof. Then use the cheap motors and replace them as needed. It looks like the quality smaller motors like the Etek and Mars have almost disappeared.
??? I'll write back once I test the boat with the small motor, it might be enough power.
Thanks,
Jerry Barth
On October 31, 2022, at 1:46 PM, Myles Twete <matwete@...> wrote:
I can’t imagine that the drive efficiency loss thru the “90 degree turn from drive shaft to prop” amounts to much.? The big loss is in using a small prop. My outboard conversion has served me well now since converting a 25HP 2-stroke Tohatsu to electric in 2003.? There are few with conversions or kits running today that predate this.? Thunderstruck Motors had started not long before this and had not yet offered its boat kits yet---I bought my ETEK from them after watching them drag race motorcycles in Oregon in 2003.? My telling them about my boat and buying the ETEK from them may have got them interested in targeting the boat market. Initially, I was not super impressed with the performance of my conversion, yet I was sold.? But then initially I was running with the stock 9.9” prop.? It did not take long before I modified my lower unit to accommodate up to a 14” prop.? I have been running with a 12” diameter 3-blade brass prop for about 18years now and have been quite pleased with the economy.? The amount of efficiency gain possible in going to 14” might be worth the expense and hassle, but probably only a small percentage.? Still, I may consider that one day. One thing I will never do: Eliminate the lower unit gearing for some other drive or relocation of the motor to an underwater pod. I do need to replace my original ETEK 8HP motor very soon.? It’s served me well for 19 years+ now, but with 3 sets of brushes nearly gone now and none available anywhere these days, I need to upgrade.? I’m considering brush and brushless options. -Myles Twete, Portland, Or. The Reach of Tide: ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of F. Neil
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion ? I would recommend checking out the ePropulsion outboards. I first bought an Elco 9.9 and was not happy with the noise and low efficiency. I then bought an ePropulsion Navy 6.0, which is much quieter, and much more efficient with its' larger 3 bladed props. The Elco is basically built on the bottom unit of a small-propped gas outboard, and loses efficiency in the 90 degree turn from the drive shaft to the prop, whereas the ePropulsion is a more modern design, with direct drive motor underwater that the prop is directly attached to. There are lower kW units that would be cheaper than the 6.0 that would be appropriate for your smaller (displacement?) boat.
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I went with the Navy 6, even though it's a bit big for my skiff, because it offered both high torque and high pitch 3 blade prop options. I would have preferred the lighter/less expensive Navy 3, but it offers only a single, two blade compromise prop that would not give me the speed I need. So I agree they need more prop options for the Navy 3.
These props are fiberglass reinforced plastic - do you think you could 3D print a prop that would be strong enough??
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Has anybody tried or know how to pick a model airplane prop for electric outboard? Thx?
On Wednesday, November 2, 2022, 05:14:31 AM PDT, F. Neil <fneilss@...> wrote:
I went with the Navy 6, even though it's a bit big for my skiff, because it offered both high torque and high pitch 3 blade prop options. I would have preferred the lighter/less expensive Navy 3, but it offers only a single, two blade compromise prop that would not give me the speed I need. So I agree they need more prop options for the Navy 3.
These props are fiberglass reinforced plastic - do you think you could 3D print a prop that would be strong enough??
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I would love to know how much speed you get from that prop. From the literature I have read and the theory that eprop borrowed from torq. Is the 6 is still only designed for the same top end speed as the three just able to so it on a heavier boat.
When I showed him the literature the dealer that was going to sell me the 6 cuz I was thinking the same as you said your right let's order you the 3.
I have heard of folks printing their own but I have lost track of them when various lists shifted away from yahoo. Was hoping some of the guys were here.
If your in a rocky area a printer will pay for itself pretty quick at the prices these guys are charging g for props.
Nick
Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
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-------- Original message -------- From: "F. Neil" <fneilss@...> Date: 2022-11-02 8:14 a.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion
I went with the Navy 6, even though it's a bit big for my skiff, because it offered both high torque and high pitch 3 blade prop options. I would have preferred the lighter/less expensive Navy 3, but it offers only a single, two blade compromise prop that would not give me the speed I need. So I agree they need more prop options for the Navy 3. These props are fiberglass reinforced plastic - do you think you could 3D print a prop that would be strong enough??
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Has anybody tried or know how to pick a model airplane prop for electric outboard?
I first did some boat speed and electrical power measurements using the stock prop that came with the motor, to get a performance baseline. I read an article that said prop efficiency increases with diameter, so I determined how large a prop could I reasonably use with my motor, based on submerged depth, length of the skeg, etc. I also estimated the pitch of the stock prop. Then I translated that pitch value to the larger prop size to get the pitch number for a similar speed performance (but now more efficient). That gave me an idea of which pitch numbers to look for in the larger sized airplane props. In my case, I thought I wanted about twice the pitch of the stock prop, since the motor was hitting its RPM limit but drawing only half the rated current. That actually worked out well for me - the motor with the larger, higher pitched prop now draws rated current at max RPM. And power measurements indicate that for a given speed, the new prop takes noticeably less electrical power than the stock prop did. One downside to slim airplane props is they slip a lot more than standard marine props. This is only a problem if you're pushing your boat into a strong wind, or trying to tow a heavy load with lots of drag. For me, on a sailboat, it's not a serious issue. But I do keep the stock prop and a wrench in the bilge...
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The only time and situation I’ve seen people use model airplane props for hydro propulsion was for pedal powered kayaks on Vancouver Island back in 1996.? The homemade propulsion units were based on the Eide SeaCycle pedal units but made much narrower, light weight and with a spring-loaded mounting arrangement that allowed the prop and water leg to pop up thru a dagger slot when the unit hit something as it was going along. ?The person who made these called the resulting pedal kayaks “Kawaks”.? They were super fast---we pedaled our Seacycle catamaran at top speed while pacing with the person who invented the Kawak drive.? Knowing the Seacycle was supposed to hit about 10mph at top speed, Bob called to me and said “is that as fast as you can go?”---then he pushed his pedal drive faster and took off ahead of us.? He told me that large model airplane propellers worked well for his drives. ? -mt ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of cpcanoesailor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2022 7:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Elco vs ePropulsion ? Has anybody tried or know how to pick a model airplane prop for electric outboard?
I first did some boat speed and electrical power measurements using the stock prop that came with the motor, to get a performance baseline.
I read an article that said prop efficiency increases with diameter, so I determined how large a prop could I reasonably use with my motor, based on submerged depth, length of the skeg, etc.
I also estimated the pitch of the stock prop. Then I translated that pitch value to the larger prop size to get the pitch number for a similar speed performance (but now more efficient).
That gave me an idea of which pitch numbers to look for in the larger sized airplane props. In my case, I thought I wanted about twice the pitch of the stock prop, since the motor was hitting its RPM limit but drawing only half the rated current.
That actually worked out well for me - the motor with the larger, higher pitched prop now draws rated current at max RPM. And power measurements indicate that for a given speed, the new prop takes noticeably less electrical power than the stock prop did.
One downside to slim airplane props is they slip a lot more than standard marine props. This is only a problem if you're pushing your boat into a strong wind, or trying to tow a heavy load with lots of drag. For me, on a sailboat, it's not a serious issue. But I do keep the stock prop and a wrench in the bilge...
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Any suggested size pitch for a 24v ? ?Thx?
On Wednesday, November 2, 2022, 07:29:34 AM PDT, cpcanoesailor via groups.io <cpcanoesailor@...> wrote:
Has anybody tried or know how to pick a model airplane prop for electric outboard?
I first did some boat speed and electrical power measurements using the stock prop that came with the motor, to get a performance baseline. I read an article that said prop efficiency increases with diameter, so I determined how large a prop could I reasonably use with my motor, based on submerged depth, length of the skeg, etc. I also estimated the pitch of the stock prop. Then I translated that pitch value to the larger prop size to get the pitch number for a similar speed performance (but now more efficient). That gave me an idea of which pitch numbers to look for in the larger sized airplane props. In my case, I thought I wanted about twice the pitch of the stock prop, since the motor was hitting its RPM limit but drawing only half the rated current. That actually worked out well for me - the motor with the larger, higher pitched prop now draws rated current at max RPM. And power measurements indicate that for a given speed, the new prop takes noticeably less electrical power than the stock prop did. One downside to slim airplane props is they slip a lot more than standard marine props. This is only a problem if you're pushing your boat into a strong wind, or trying to tow a heavy load with lots of drag. For me, on a sailboat, it's not a serious issue. But I do keep the stock prop and a wrench in the bilge...
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cpcanoesailor