|
Of course you'll need a double bearing for axial loads in forward and reverse...
P? tir., den 16. mar. 2021 klokken 10:47, Carsten via groups.io <Carstensemail@...> skrev: Hi, Steve
Consider to make your thrust bearing with a high quality spherical roller thrust bearing, eg. of SKF brand. This can accept torsional forces much better than ball thrust bearings. Then you don't need the expensive solutions with a lot of rubber (which needs care and replacement when worn).
The tooth belt drive (not V-belt, which introduces higher radial forces to the shaft) can be mounted either before or after the thrust bearing. The housing for the thrust bearing should best be mounted close to the cutlass bearing, to minimize torsional bending of a long shaft.
Could you please post some photos of your existing setup of the shaft and cutlass ?
Have you considered which prop you will use for your new setup ? Going electric has a lot of torque at low revs, which is very useful during maneuvering, so the prop should have less pitch and larger diameter, imho.
Carsten
P? tir., den 16. mar. 2021 klokken 4:52, Steven Borg <steve@...> skrev: I'm in the process of planning and installing a Hyper-9 motor at 154V with a battery bank of 48 280Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 batteries I received from China. The motor is?rated to be plenty powerful to replace my 100 HP Diesel (which has been removed).? I'll keep everyone posted when it's installed.
In the meantime, I have a related question (maybe for ChristopherH?) around thrust bearings.? I've decided to use a belt drive (like the photos above, but for a single motor and gear.? But without the transmission I had planned on using (with integrated thrust bearings), I'm going to need to anchor the propshaft to the boat.??
Christopher, what inline thrust bearing did you use?? I'm trying to determine if I should build out a thrust bearing somewhere along the prop shaft, or whether I should integrate the thrust bearing into the engine mount, either before or after the belt pulley driving the shaft.? Also, if there's a pre-made thrust bearing for boats, I can't seem to find them (except large ones for giant ships). Does anyone know what they'd be called, so I can search for them.? (Yes, this is an embarrassing, totally newbie, question to ask, but I just can't seem to find them, so have been debating whether to just engineer my own from bearings off Granger or McMaster-Carr).
I'm not sure those questions even made sense, but that's where I'm starting...? Still trying to figure out the best way to get this done!??
This has been an amazing thread!? Thank you!
|
(sorry if this is a repeat - I posted it 8hrs ago and it never showed up)
I have also spent a lot of time looking for thrust bearing options.? That Python Drive looks like a great solution where there is room to fit it.? Looks like it will leave some room in the wallet too.?
Thunderstruck uses a trailer hub with tapered roller bearings.? It's a good simple and inexpensive solution for small setups (<30hp?).?? I think this is the hub they use:
One issue with these is setting the pre-load on the bearings.? If you have changed the wheel bearings on a car you know what this is about.? Thunderstruck does it by using a fixed collar and bushing on the prop side of the bearing and another bushing on the other side that is held in place by the tapered bushing that holds the toothed belt for the reduction gear pulley.? It's a simple setup with only a few parts and some simple machining on the shaft.
I am fabricating my own belt drive reduction gear for my boat (12kW motor) and I am going to use a trailer hub that's one size larger and available in stainless steel (with a price premium of course).? This is what I am using:
I am going to use a threaded split collar on the shaft to set the pre-load on the bearing.? My shaft will be a more complicated machining (including a threaded section) but I think it will be a better way to set and hold the pre-load on the bearings.?? The two parts I have to make are the shaft and the bushing.? Both will be stainless steel.? The hub will remain stock with no machining.? The bearings are standard hub bearings you can get anywhere.?? All the parts except the bearings will be stainless steel.? And the bearings will be in the grease.? The bushing will have the OD sized to fit the grease seal on the hub that takes the place of the standard cap when it is used on a wheel.? It's a standard grease seal but I had to hunt a bit to sort out fitting it in the hub.?
This could easily be scaled up for larger applications.?? These hubs come in at least two larger sizes in stainless.?
The bearing, reduction gear assembly, and motor will mount to an aluminum plate similar to what Thunderstruck does.? I was going to use a piece of c-channel and that would work well but I wanted more flexibility in the pulley sizing to be better able to fine tune the reduction ratio and the c-channel limits the diameter of the gear pulley a bit.? I am still sorting that part out but I am aiming for about 3:1 for the reduction.? The world of timing belts and pulleys is vast and has been difficult to get a handle on so far.?
Dan Pfeiffer
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2021-03-15 11:29 pm, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
Of course you'll need a double bearing for axial loads in forward and reverse...
P? tir., den 16. mar. 2021 klokken 10:47, Carsten via groups.io
<Carstensemail@...> skrev:
Hi, Steve
?
Consider to make your thrust bearing with a high quality spherical roller thrust bearing, eg. of SKF brand. This can accept torsional forces much better than ball thrust bearings.
Then you don't need the expensive solutions with a lot of rubber (which needs care and replacement when worn).
?
The tooth belt drive (not V-belt, which introduces higher radial forces to the shaft) can be mounted either before or after the thrust bearing.
The housing for the thrust bearing should best be mounted close to the cutlass bearing, to minimize torsional bending of a long shaft.
?
Could you please post some photos of your existing setup of the shaft and cutlass ?
?
Have you considered which prop you will use for your new setup ?
Going electric has a lot of torque at low revs, which is very useful during maneuvering, so the prop should have less pitch and larger diameter, imho.
?
Carsten
?
?
P? tir., den 16. mar. 2021 klokken 4:52, Steven Borg
<steve@...> skrev:
I'm in the process of planning and installing a Hyper-9 motor at 154V with a battery bank of 48 280Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 batteries I received from China. The motor is?rated to be plenty powerful to replace my 100 HP Diesel (which has been removed).? I'll keep everyone posted when it's installed.
In the meantime, I have a related question (maybe for ChristopherH?) around thrust bearings.? I've decided to use a belt drive (like the photos above, but for a single motor and gear.? But without the transmission I had planned on using (with integrated thrust bearings), I'm going to need to anchor the propshaft to the boat.??
Christopher, what inline thrust bearing did you use?? I'm trying to determine if I should build out a thrust bearing somewhere along the prop shaft, or whether I should integrate the thrust bearing into the engine mount, either before or after the belt pulley driving the shaft.? Also, if there's a pre-made thrust bearing for boats, I can't seem to find them (except large ones for giant ships). Does anyone know what they'd be called, so I can search for them.? (Yes, this is an embarrassing, totally newbie, question to ask, but I just can't seem to find them, so have been debating whether to just engineer my own from bearings off Granger or McMaster-Carr).
I'm not sure those questions even made sense, but that's where I'm starting...? Still trying to figure out the best way to get this done!??
This has been an amazing thread!? Thank you!
|
Thanks, Dan !
Save your money on stainless (exept the shaft part from cutless bearing to prop). You have an inboard, and mechanical properties of good ol "rusty" steel are usually better than ss.
Could you please provide a sketch of your setup ? It seems very interesting !
Carsten
On Tuesday, 16 March 2021, 23:54:19 GMT+8, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@...> wrote:
(sorry if this is a repeat - I posted it 8hrs ago and it never showed up)
I have also spent a lot of time looking for thrust bearing options.? That Python Drive looks like a great solution where there is room to fit it.? Looks like it will leave some room in the wallet too.?
Thunderstruck uses a trailer hub with tapered roller bearings.? It's a good simple and inexpensive solution for small setups (<30hp?).?? I think this is the hub they use:
One issue with these is setting the pre-load on the bearings.? If you have changed the wheel bearings on a car you know what this is about.? Thunderstruck does it by using a fixed collar and bushing on the prop side of the bearing and another bushing on the other side that is held in place by the tapered bushing that holds the toothed belt for the reduction gear pulley.? It's a simple setup with only a few parts and some simple machining on the shaft.
I am fabricating my own belt drive reduction gear for my boat (12kW motor) and I am going to use a trailer hub that's one size larger and available in stainless steel (with a price premium of course).? This is what I am using:
I am going to use a threaded split collar on the shaft to set the pre-load on the bearing.? My shaft will be a more complicated machining (including a threaded section) but I think it will be a better way to set and hold the pre-load on the bearings.?? The two parts I have to make are the shaft and the bushing.? Both will be stainless steel.? The hub will remain stock with no machining.? The bearings are standard hub bearings you can get anywhere.?? All the parts except the bearings will be stainless steel.? And the bearings will be in the grease.? The bushing will have the OD sized to fit the grease seal on the hub that takes the place of the standard cap when it is used on a wheel.? It's a standard grease seal but I had to hunt a bit to sort out fitting it in the hub.?
This could easily be scaled up for larger applications.?? These hubs come in at least two larger sizes in stainless.?
The bearing, reduction gear assembly, and motor will mount to an aluminum plate similar to what Thunderstruck does.? I was going to use a piece of c-channel and that would work well but I wanted more flexibility in the pulley sizing to be better able to fine tune the reduction ratio and the c-channel limits the diameter of the gear pulley a bit.? I am still sorting that part out but I am aiming for about 3:1 for the reduction.? The world of timing belts and pulleys is vast and has been difficult to get a handle on so far.?
Dan Pfeiffer
?
On 2021-03-15 11:29 pm, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
Of course you'll need a double bearing for axial loads in forward and reverse...
P? tir., den 16. mar. 2021 klokken 10:47, Carsten via groups.io
<Carstensemail@...> skrev:
Hi, Steve
?
Consider to make your thrust bearing with a high quality spherical roller thrust bearing, eg. of SKF brand. This can accept torsional forces much better than ball thrust bearings.
Then you don't need the expensive solutions with a lot of rubber (which needs care and replacement when worn).
?
The tooth belt drive (not V-belt, which introduces higher radial forces to the shaft) can be mounted either before or after the thrust bearing.
The housing for the thrust bearing should best be mounted close to the cutlass bearing, to minimize torsional bending of a long shaft.
?
Could you please post some photos of your existing setup of the shaft and cutlass ?
?
Have you considered which prop you will use for your new setup ?
Going electric has a lot of torque at low revs, which is very useful during maneuvering, so the prop should have less pitch and larger diameter, imho.
?
Carsten
?
?
P? tir., den 16. mar. 2021 klokken 4:52, Steven Borg
<steve@...> skrev:
I'm in the process of planning and installing a Hyper-9 motor at 154V with a battery bank of 48 280Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 batteries I received from China. The motor is?rated to be plenty powerful to replace my 100 HP Diesel (which has been removed).? I'll keep everyone posted when it's installed.
In the meantime, I have a related question (maybe for ChristopherH?) around thrust bearings.? I've decided to use a belt drive (like the photos above, but for a single motor and gear.? But without the transmission I had planned on using (with integrated thrust bearings), I'm going to need to anchor the propshaft to the boat.??
Christopher, what inline thrust bearing did you use?? I'm trying to determine if I should build out a thrust bearing somewhere along the prop shaft, or whether I should integrate the thrust bearing into the engine mount, either before or after the belt pulley driving the shaft.? Also, if there's a pre-made thrust bearing for boats, I can't seem to find them (except large ones for giant ships). Does anyone know what they'd be called, so I can search for them.? (Yes, this is an embarrassing, totally newbie, question to ask, but I just can't seem to find them, so have been debating whether to just engineer my own from bearings off Granger or McMaster-Carr).
I'm not sure those questions even made sense, but that's where I'm starting...? Still trying to figure out the best way to get this done!??
This has been an amazing thread!? Thank you!
|
Carsten,
Can you elaborate?? What kind of steel would you recommend for the short shaft on the reduction gear?? And you thin the SS hub is not worth the added expense?? I can certainly paint all this stuff.?
Attached is sketch of one version of my reduction gear.? I am still refining it.? This version is made from an aluminum c-channel (from Online Metals).? I will probably change the c-channel for a flat plate because I'll have more flexibility in the choice of pulleys and that will let me better fine tune the reduction ratio.? I also have a variable pitch prop to play with.? The drive will tilt back about 15 deg in the boat.? This version shows a DriveSaver? between the shaft couplings.? I have not worked all that out yet.? I may do a soft mount between the drive assembly and the beds.?
I have the motor mounted to the side to free up space in the compartment for a genset.? I have a nice new Kubota D722 and am exploring fitting another ME1616 to it to make a DC genset.? It should all fit in the compartment.? The Kubota is remarkably compact.?? Wth the ME1616 I should be able to get 8kW? I chose the ME1616 for it's water cooling which I think will bne important at 8kW.?? The BLDC motor with a rectifier and regulator could get into the 93% efficiancy range.? Or so I am told.? ?? I am still researching that.?? For now my attention is on the drive line.?
To Steve's questions,
I think the thrust from the prop is on the order of 1000lbs.? There was a recent post with some tests of that using a spring scale.? I just doubled that to spec my parts.? There are several larger hub options too.? For your setup (as I understand it) I would proably want to go bigger.? Like a 6-bolt hub like this:
But I don't know the details of your system and I am not an engineer.? Just a hobbyist.?
The threaded portion on my shaft is very short.? Just enough to tighten the threaded collar against the bushing and bearing.? Forward of that is the section the drive pullet will attach to.? That's 1" diameter for the bushing that the pulley mounts with.?? I have not yet determined all the final lengths for the different sections of trhe shaft.? I need to get some more measurements on the boat.?
For tension of the belt I think you would need idlers on both sides and they would have to be quite beefy.? The drive needs to run in both directions.? Look at the belt arrangement on the Beta Parallel Hybrid Motors.?
I think something like that would work.? It's more parts but it might make things easier in some respects???? R = 1/P where R is reliability and P is the number of parts.???
Dan Pfeiffer
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2021-03-16 12:28 pm, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
?
Thanks, Dan !
?
Save your money on stainless (exept the shaft part from cutless bearing to prop).
You have an inboard, and mechanical properties of good ol "rusty" steel are usually better than ss.
?
Could you please provide a sketch of your setup ?
It seems very interesting !
?
Carsten
?
?
On Tuesday, 16 March 2021, 23:54:19 GMT+8, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@...> wrote:
?
?
(sorry if this is a repeat - I posted it 8hrs ago and it never showed up)
I have also spent a lot of time looking for thrust bearing options.? That Python Drive looks like a great solution where there is room to fit it.? Looks like it will leave some room in the wallet too.?
Thunderstruck uses a trailer hub with tapered roller bearings.? It's a good simple and inexpensive solution for small setups (<30hp?).?? I think this is the hub they use:
One issue with these is setting the pre-load on the bearings.? If you have changed the wheel bearings on a car you know what this is about.? Thunderstruck does it by using a fixed collar and bushing on the prop side of the bearing and another bushing on the other side that is held in place by the tapered bushing that holds the toothed belt for the reduction gear pulley.? It's a simple setup with only a few parts and some simple machining on the shaft.
I am fabricating my own belt drive reduction gear for my boat (12kW motor) and I am going to use a trailer hub that's one size larger and available in stainless steel (with a price premium of course).? This is what I am using:
I am going to use a threaded split collar on the shaft to set the pre-load on the bearing.? My shaft will be a more complicated machining (including a threaded section) but I think it will be a better way to set and hold the pre-load on the bearings.?? The two parts I have to make are the shaft and the bushing.? Both will be stainless steel.? The hub will remain stock with no machining.? The bearings are standard hub bearings you can get anywhere.?? All the parts except the bearings will be stainless steel.? And the bearings will be in the grease.? The bushing will have the OD sized to fit the grease seal on the hub that takes the place of the standard cap when it is used on a wheel.? It's a standard grease seal but I had to hunt a bit to sort out fitting it in the hub.?
This could easily be scaled up for larger applications.?? These hubs come in at least two larger sizes in stainless.?
The bearing, reduction gear assembly, and motor will mount to an aluminum plate similar to what Thunderstruck does.? I was going to use a piece of c-channel and that would work well but I wanted more flexibility in the pulley sizing to be better able to fine tune the reduction ratio and the c-channel limits the diameter of the gear pulley a bit.? I am still sorting that part out but I am aiming for about 3:1 for the reduction.? The world of timing belts and pulleys is vast and has been difficult to get a handle on so far.?
Dan Pfeiffer
?
On 2021-03-15 11:29 pm, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
Of course you'll need a double bearing for axial loads in forward and reverse...
P? tir., den 16. mar. 2021 klokken 10:47, Carsten via groups.io
<Carstensemail@...> skrev:
Hi, Steve
?
Consider to make your thrust bearing with a high quality spherical roller thrust bearing, eg. of SKF brand. This can accept torsional forces much better than ball thrust bearings.
Then you don't need the expensive solutions with a lot of rubber (which needs care and replacement when worn).
?
The tooth belt drive (not V-belt, which introduces higher radial forces to the shaft) can be mounted either before or after the thrust bearing.
The housing for the thrust bearing should best be mounted close to the cutlass bearing, to minimize torsional bending of a long shaft.
?
Could you please post some photos of your existing setup of the shaft and cutlass ?
?
Have you considered which prop you will use for your new setup ?
Going electric has a lot of torque at low revs, which is very useful during maneuvering, so the prop should have less pitch and larger diameter, imho.
?
Carsten
?
?
P? tir., den 16. mar. 2021 klokken 4:52, Steven Borg
<steve@...> skrev:
I'm in the process of planning and installing a Hyper-9 motor at 154V with a battery bank of 48 280Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 batteries I received from China. The motor is?rated to be plenty powerful to replace my 100 HP Diesel (which has been removed).? I'll keep everyone posted when it's installed.
In the meantime, I have a related question (maybe for ChristopherH?) around thrust bearings.? I've decided to use a belt drive (like the photos above, but for a single motor and gear.? But without the transmission I had planned on using (with integrated thrust bearings), I'm going to need to anchor the propshaft to the boat.??
Christopher, what inline thrust bearing did you use?? I'm trying to determine if I should build out a thrust bearing somewhere along the prop shaft, or whether I should integrate the thrust bearing into the engine mount, either before or after the belt pulley driving the shaft.? Also, if there's a pre-made thrust bearing for boats, I can't seem to find them (except large ones for giant ships). Does anyone know what they'd be called, so I can search for them.? (Yes, this is an embarrassing, totally newbie, question to ask, but I just can't seem to find them, so have been debating whether to just engineer my own from bearings off Granger or McMaster-Carr).
I'm not sure those questions even made sense, but that's where I'm starting...? Still trying to figure out the best way to get this done!??
This has been an amazing thread!? Thank you!
?
|
Dan,
I have reviewed your drawings. Very interesting, a hybrid boat !
When you are using a toothbelt drive, you actually don't need a Drivesaver, as the toothbelt will slip or break in a crash-stop situation. A new belt is far easier (and cheaper) to replace than a Drivesaver coupling.
The inertia in an electric motor (the rotating mass) is far less than by a diesel engine with a big flywheel, and you have no gearbox anymore to worry about.
The position of the ME1616 motor is almost free to choose, meaning that you can add a pulley to the shaft almost anywhere until you reach the sterndrive. The distance from shaft centerline to motor centerline is also only determined of the toothbelt length. You don't HAVE to place it in one common frameplate.
If you make the motor base adjustable, it is easy to change the belt. If you make the frameplate with fixed driveshaft and motor shaft, like on your drawing, you likely will add an adjustable bearing roller to adjust the tension of the belt (same like in a car engine, for a camshaft toothbelt). Very handy too, for changes of pulleys for reduction ratio. (The roller must roll on the flat side of the belt, of course.) I guess a complete roller kit for a car is rather inexpensive.
Why use aluminum for the construction?
I know that it easier to cut a thread and drill a hole in aluminum than in steel. But :
Steel channels and steel plates are much easier to repair if you make a mistake, or something should be re-positioned. Aluminum welding is no fun, and threads cut in steel are much stronger. You use Helicoils in aluminium constructions, if threads shall be strong and lasting. That requires special tools, so - not for a DIY mechanic. If you need something done, any workshop in any port can weld steel, and can always find a standard machine tap in the dirty drawers.
I would say, that an ME1616 used as a generator might be shooting sparrows with a cannon - an expensive solution. Balmar have some 48V alternators, you can check them out.
How is your plan for cooling of the ME1616 for the shaft ? (I assume that you will make a common system for the Kubota and the ME1616.)
What kind of battery bank is in your plans ?
Do you have a photo of the shaft and of the engine room, as it is now ?
Cheers, Carsten
On Thursday, 18 March 2021, 01:50:03 GMT+8, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@...> wrote:
Carsten,
Can you elaborate?? What kind of steel would you recommend for the short shaft on the reduction gear?? And you thin the SS hub is not worth the added expense?? I can certainly paint all this stuff.?
Attached is sketch of one version of my reduction gear.? I am still refining it.? This version is made from an aluminum c-channel (from Online Metals).? I will probably change the c-channel for a flat plate because I'll have more flexibility in the choice of pulleys and that will let me better fine tune the reduction ratio.? I also have a variable pitch prop to play with.? The drive will tilt back about 15 deg in the boat.? This version shows a DriveSaver? between the shaft couplings.? I have not worked all that out yet.? I may do a soft mount between the drive assembly and the beds.?
I have the motor mounted to the side to free up space in the compartment for a genset.? I have a nice new Kubota D722 and am exploring fitting another ME1616 to it to make a DC genset.? It should all fit in the compartment.? The Kubota is remarkably compact.?? Wth the ME1616 I should be able to get 8kW? I chose the ME1616 for it's water cooling which I think will bne important at 8kW.?? The BLDC motor with a rectifier and regulator could get into the 93% efficiancy range.? Or so I am told.? ?? I am still researching that.?? For now my attention is on the drive line.?
To Steve's questions,
I think the thrust from the prop is on the order of 1000lbs.? There was a recent post with some tests of that using a spring scale.? I just doubled that to spec my parts.? There are several larger hub options too.? For your setup (as I understand it) I would proably want to go bigger.? Like a 6-bolt hub like this:
But I don't know the details of your system and I am not an engineer.? Just a hobbyist.?
The threaded portion on my shaft is very short.? Just enough to tighten the threaded collar against the bushing and bearing.? Forward of that is the section the drive pullet will attach to.? That's 1" diameter for the bushing that the pulley mounts with.?? I have not yet determined all the final lengths for the different sections of trhe shaft.? I need to get some more measurements on the boat.?
For tension of the belt I think you would need idlers on both sides and they would have to be quite beefy.? The drive needs to run in both directions.? Look at the belt arrangement on the Beta Parallel Hybrid Motors.?
I think something like that would work.? It's more parts but it might make things easier in some respects???? R = 1/P where R is reliability and P is the number of parts.???
Dan Pfeiffer
?
On 2021-03-16 12:28 pm, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
?
Thanks, Dan !
?
Save your money on stainless (exept the shaft part from cutless bearing to prop).
You have an inboard, and mechanical properties of good ol "rusty" steel are usually better than ss.
?
Could you please provide a sketch of your setup ?
It seems very interesting !
?
Carsten
?
?
On Tuesday, 16 March 2021, 23:54:19 GMT+8, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@...> wrote:
?
?
(sorry if this is a repeat - I posted it 8hrs ago and it never showed up)
I have also spent a lot of time looking for thrust bearing options.? That Python Drive looks like a great solution where there is room to fit it.? Looks like it will leave some room in the wallet too.?
Thunderstruck uses a trailer hub with tapered roller bearings.? It's a good simple and inexpensive solution for small setups (<30hp?).?? I think this is the hub they use:
One issue with these is setting the pre-load on the bearings.? If you have changed the wheel bearings on a car you know what this is about.? Thunderstruck does it by using a fixed collar and bushing on the prop side of the bearing and another bushing on the other side that is held in place by the tapered bushing that holds the toothed belt for the reduction gear pulley.? It's a simple setup with only a few parts and some simple machining on the shaft.
I am fabricating my own belt drive reduction gear for my boat (12kW motor) and I am going to use a trailer hub that's one size larger and available in stainless steel (with a price premium of course).? This is what I am using:
I am going to use a threaded split collar on the shaft to set the pre-load on the bearing.? My shaft will be a more complicated machining (including a threaded section) but I think it will be a better way to set and hold the pre-load on the bearings.?? The two parts I have to make are the shaft and the bushing.? Both will be stainless steel.? The hub will remain stock with no machining.? The bearings are standard hub bearings you can get anywhere.?? All the parts except the bearings will be stainless steel.? And the bearings will be in the grease.? The bushing will have the OD sized to fit the grease seal on the hub that takes the place of the standard cap when it is used on a wheel.? It's a standard grease seal but I had to hunt a bit to sort out fitting it in the hub.?
This could easily be scaled up for larger applications.?? These hubs come in at least two larger sizes in stainless.?
The bearing, reduction gear assembly, and motor will mount to an aluminum plate similar to what Thunderstruck does.? I was going to use a piece of c-channel and that would work well but I wanted more flexibility in the pulley sizing to be better able to fine tune the reduction ratio and the c-channel limits the diameter of the gear pulley a bit.? I am still sorting that part out but I am aiming for about 3:1 for the reduction.? The world of timing belts and pulleys is vast and has been difficult to get a handle on so far.?
Dan Pfeiffer
?
On 2021-03-15 11:29 pm, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
Of course you'll need a double bearing for axial loads in forward and reverse...
P? tir., den 16. mar. 2021 klokken 10:47, Carsten via groups.io
<Carstensemail@...> skrev:
Hi, Steve
?
Consider to make your thrust bearing with a high quality spherical roller thrust bearing, eg. of SKF brand. This can accept torsional forces much better than ball thrust bearings.
Then you don't need the expensive solutions with a lot of rubber (which needs care and replacement when worn).
?
The tooth belt drive (not V-belt, which introduces higher radial forces to the shaft) can be mounted either before or after the thrust bearing.
The housing for the thrust bearing should best be mounted close to the cutlass bearing, to minimize torsional bending of a long shaft.
?
Could you please post some photos of your existing setup of the shaft and cutlass ?
?
Have you considered which prop you will use for your new setup ?
Going electric has a lot of torque at low revs, which is very useful during maneuvering, so the prop should have less pitch and larger diameter, imho.
?
Carsten
?
?
P? tir., den 16. mar. 2021 klokken 4:52, Steven Borg
<steve@...> skrev:
I'm in the process of planning and installing a Hyper-9 motor at 154V with a battery bank of 48 280Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 batteries I received from China. The motor is?rated to be plenty powerful to replace my 100 HP Diesel (which has been removed).? I'll keep everyone posted when it's installed.
In the meantime, I have a related question (maybe for ChristopherH?) around thrust bearings.? I've decided to use a belt drive (like the photos above, but for a single motor and gear.? But without the transmission I had planned on using (with integrated thrust bearings), I'm going to need to anchor the propshaft to the boat.??
Christopher, what inline thrust bearing did you use?? I'm trying to determine if I should build out a thrust bearing somewhere along the prop shaft, or whether I should integrate the thrust bearing into the engine mount, either before or after the belt pulley driving the shaft.? Also, if there's a pre-made thrust bearing for boats, I can't seem to find them (except large ones for giant ships). Does anyone know what they'd be called, so I can search for them.? (Yes, this is an embarrassing, totally newbie, question to ask, but I just can't seem to find them, so have been debating whether to just engineer my own from bearings off Granger or McMaster-Carr).
I'm not sure those questions even made sense, but that's where I'm starting...? Still trying to figure out the best way to get this done!??
This has been an amazing thread!? Thank you!
?
|
That drawing I sent was a bit old.? There are ongoing revisions as I sort out design issues.?
MOUNTING PLATE
I chose aluminum for the motor plate/reduction gear for a couple reasons.? Mostly it's easier to work with than SS.? The thickness will also allow me to counter sink the heads on mounting hardware which is useful. ?? My first idea of using the C-channel for the mounting plate was because I wanted the extra rigidity of the channel without having any welding to do.? In the past I have had issues with aluminum (and SS) distortion with welding.? I thought that might present a problem for belt alignment in the finished plate so I wanted to make it without any welding on that component.?? There would not be any fasteners threaded into the aluminum mounting plate.?
The motor base will be adjustable for belt tension.? That didn't show in the drawing.? I was planning on milling slots for the motor mounting.? Simple.? The common frame plate was to facilitate good alignment.??
DRIIVESAVER
The driveSaver was more for vibration reduction but I have decided it's better to make things so a proper alignment is easier and not use the driveSaver.? The idea if it as protection of the drive line from impact damage wasn't a consideration.? But I suppose that's why they are called DriveSavers.?
Here's an interesting reference on couplers:
I am building a 48V 280AH battery bank from the EVE cells that have been discussed in other threads here.? They are on the way now.? Here is an aluminum box they will nicely fit in:
I would line it with electric grade fiberglass sheet:
https://www.mcmaster.com/electrical-grade-fiberglass-(gpo3)-sheets
GENERATOR
The ME1616 has liquid cooling and as a generator should be capable of 8-10kW.? Cost of the motor alone is $950.? I would need a 3-phase rectifier and a regulator.? I have not gotten too far in researching that yet.?? I have not researched the Balmar 48V alternators but I think they price a lot higher for a lot less output?? More than $4000 here:
BELT DRIVE I have some questions about the toothed belt drive.? Originally I was planning on a 42 tooth belt on the output shaft and 16 on the motor to get the 3:1 ratio.? I have an 18" variable pitch prop and want to get prop RPM at 800 for max (2400 on motor at 48V).?? I wondered if the 16 was a bit small and would be better with a larger pulley for more tooth engagement.? If I went ot 20 I could go to 60 on the output.? That also give me more flexibility to tweak the ratio with changing the motor pulley up or down from 20.? The steps are proportionally smaller so more fine.? That seems useful.? But that 60 tooth belt is 9" in diameter on a 1" shaft.? Is that a potential problem??? Carsten, You mentioned that I should not bother with stainless steel for my small output shaft.? What would you suggest for that instead?? I attached another drawing showing the parts in a sequence to (hopefully) make it a little easier to understand.? Some details and line weight stuff diesn't translate well to the image file but you get the gist.? It's really wide to show all the parts but it's a wee little file at 250K.? Also a photo of the engine bay as it looks at the moment with the old engine beds.? They are not usable for this as they are too far aft because original engine had v-drive.? They are also not very precisely installed.? I can do better.? Dan Pfeiffer On 2021-03-18 11:22 am, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
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Dan,
?
I have reviewed your drawings. Very interesting, a hybrid boat !
?
When you are using a toothbelt drive, you actually don't need a Drivesaver, as the toothbelt will slip or break in a crash-stop situation. A new belt is far easier (and cheaper) to replace than a Drivesaver coupling.
The inertia in an electric motor (the rotating mass) is far less than by a diesel engine with a big flywheel, and you have no gearbox anymore to worry about.
?
The position of the ME1616 motor is almost free to choose, meaning that you can add a pulley to the shaft almost anywhere until you reach the sterndrive. The distance from shaft centerline to motor centerline is also only determined of the toothbelt length. You don't HAVE to place it in one common frameplate.
?
If you make the motor base adjustable, it is easy to change the belt.
If you make the frameplate with fixed driveshaft and motor shaft, like on your drawing, you likely will add an adjustable bearing roller to adjust the tension of the belt (same like in a car engine, for a camshaft toothbelt). Very handy too, for changes of pulleys for reduction ratio. (The roller must roll on the flat side of the belt, of course.)
I guess a complete roller kit for a car is rather inexpensive.
?
Why use aluminum for the construction?
I know that it easier to cut a thread and drill a hole in aluminum than in steel.
But :
Steel channels and steel plates are much easier to repair if you make a mistake, or something should be re-positioned.
Aluminum welding is no fun, and threads cut in steel are much stronger. You use Helicoils in aluminium constructions, if threads shall be strong and lasting. That requires special tools, so - not for a DIY mechanic.
If you need something done, any workshop in any port can weld steel, and can always find a standard machine tap in the dirty drawers.
?
I would say, that an ME1616 used as a generator might be shooting sparrows with a cannon - an expensive solution. Balmar have some 48V alternators, you can check them out.
?
How is your plan for cooling of the ME1616 for the shaft ? (I assume that you will make a common system for the Kubota and the ME1616.)
?
What kind of battery bank is in your plans ?
?
Do you have a photo of the shaft and of the engine room, as it is now ?
?
?
Cheers,
Carsten
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Hi, Dan
I will suggest 34CrNiMo6 alloy for your shaft.
On Friday, 19 March 2021, 07:07:01 GMT+8, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@...> wrote:
That drawing I sent was a bit old.? There are ongoing revisions as I sort out design issues.?
MOUNTING PLATE
I chose aluminum for the motor plate/reduction gear for a couple reasons.? Mostly it's easier to work with than SS.? The thickness will also allow me to counter sink the heads on mounting hardware which is useful. ?? My first idea of using the C-channel for the mounting plate was because I wanted the extra rigidity of the channel without having any welding to do.? In the past I have had issues with aluminum (and SS) distortion with welding.? I thought that might present a problem for belt alignment in the finished plate so I wanted to make it without any welding on that component.?? There would not be any fasteners threaded into the aluminum mounting plate.?
The motor base will be adjustable for belt tension.? That didn't show in the drawing.? I was planning on milling slots for the motor mounting.? Simple.? The common frame plate was to facilitate good alignment.??
DRIIVESAVER
The driveSaver was more for vibration reduction but I have decided it's better to make things so a proper alignment is easier and not use the driveSaver.? The idea if it as protection of the drive line from impact damage wasn't a consideration.? But I suppose that's why they are called DriveSavers.?
Here's an interesting reference on couplers:
I am building a 48V 280AH battery bank from the EVE cells that have been discussed in other threads here.? They are on the way now.? Here is an aluminum box they will nicely fit in:
I would line it with electric grade fiberglass sheet:
https://www.mcmaster.com/electrical-grade-fiberglass-(gpo3)-sheets
GENERATOR
The ME1616 has liquid cooling and as a generator should be capable of 8-10kW.? Cost of the motor alone is $950.? I would need a 3-phase rectifier and a regulator.? I have not gotten too far in researching that yet.?? I have not researched the Balmar 48V alternators but I think they price a lot higher for a lot less output?? More than $4000 here:
BELT DRIVE I have some questions about the toothed belt drive.? Originally I was planning on a 42 tooth belt on the output shaft and 16 on the motor to get the 3:1 ratio.? I have an 18" variable pitch prop and want to get prop RPM at 800 for max (2400 on motor at 48V).?? I wondered if the 16 was a bit small and would be better with a larger pulley for more tooth engagement.? If I went ot 20 I could go to 60 on the output.? That also give me more flexibility to tweak the ratio with changing the motor pulley up or down from 20.? The steps are proportionally smaller so more fine.? That seems useful.? But that 60 tooth belt is 9" in diameter on a 1" shaft.? Is that a potential problem??? Carsten, You mentioned that I should not bother with stainless steel for my small output shaft.? What would you suggest for that instead?? I attached another drawing showing the parts in a sequence to (hopefully) make it a little easier to understand.? Some details and line weight stuff diesn't translate well to the image file but you get the gist.? It's really wide to show all the parts but it's a wee little file at 250K.? Also a photo of the engine bay as it looks at the moment with the old engine beds.? They are not usable for this as they are too far aft because original engine had v-drive.? They are also not very precisely installed.? I can do better.? Dan Pfeiffer On 2021-03-18 11:22 am, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
?
Dan,
?
I have reviewed your drawings. Very interesting, a hybrid boat !
?
When you are using a toothbelt drive, you actually don't need a Drivesaver, as the toothbelt will slip or break in a crash-stop situation. A new belt is far easier (and cheaper) to replace than a Drivesaver coupling.
The inertia in an electric motor (the rotating mass) is far less than by a diesel engine with a big flywheel, and you have no gearbox anymore to worry about.
?
The position of the ME1616 motor is almost free to choose, meaning that you can add a pulley to the shaft almost anywhere until you reach the sterndrive. The distance from shaft centerline to motor centerline is also only determined of the toothbelt length. You don't HAVE to place it in one common frameplate.
?
If you make the motor base adjustable, it is easy to change the belt.
If you make the frameplate with fixed driveshaft and motor shaft, like on your drawing, you likely will add an adjustable bearing roller to adjust the tension of the belt (same like in a car engine, for a camshaft toothbelt). Very handy too, for changes of pulleys for reduction ratio. (The roller must roll on the flat side of the belt, of course.)
I guess a complete roller kit for a car is rather inexpensive.
?
Why use aluminum for the construction?
I know that it easier to cut a thread and drill a hole in aluminum than in steel.
But :
Steel channels and steel plates are much easier to repair if you make a mistake, or something should be re-positioned.
Aluminum welding is no fun, and threads cut in steel are much stronger. You use Helicoils in aluminium constructions, if threads shall be strong and lasting. That requires special tools, so - not for a DIY mechanic.
If you need something done, any workshop in any port can weld steel, and can always find a standard machine tap in the dirty drawers.
?
I would say, that an ME1616 used as a generator might be shooting sparrows with a cannon - an expensive solution. Balmar have some 48V alternators, you can check them out.
?
How is your plan for cooling of the ME1616 for the shaft ? (I assume that you will make a common system for the Kubota and the ME1616.)
?
What kind of battery bank is in your plans ?
?
Do you have a photo of the shaft and of the engine room, as it is now ?
?
?
Cheers,
Carsten
?
?
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Amazing thoughts! Thank you so much for all this information. I'm plodding along an slowly progressing.? Here are my existing thoughts. Dan, I'm planning on riffing from your plans, spinning the engine to the other side, and doing a few other things.
Here¡¯s my latest thinking for getting my 55¡¯ sailboat on electric. It¡¯s based on all the wonderful feedback here!
After much thought, I¡¯ve decided against using a transmission and am going to go with a pulley system. It¡¯s just simpler, even though I lose the ability to have a neutral (which would allow my auxiliary shaft to be used for an emergency pump). That decision was driven by the advice of the good people on this list. Thank you!
However, I¡¯m planning on mounting my engine the opposite direction of everyone on this list, and I thought I¡¯d explain why, in hopes of getting feedback from folks.
Here¡¯s a very, very ugly diagram, not to scale, made by cutting and pasting.
?
I¡¯m going to go with off the shelf components where possible. That¡¯s one reason for putting the Spindle facing forward ¨C I won¡¯t have to machine it, and it puts the larger bearings where they will accept the forward thrust (which for me is more common).
Initial (potentially incorrect) thoughts:
- Put thrust plate AFTER large belt spindle ¨C given the limited forward and backward slip from the Hub, I don¡¯t think that will cause issues with the belt slipping off (1 ?¡± belt, I believe)
- Orient the Hub and Spindle with the ¡®wheel¡¯ side facing fore ¨C this means no metal working for me, places the biggest bearing where it will take the forward thrust and simplifies installation
- Orient the motor on the fore side of the mounting plate ¨C this is necessary to get the belt and gears on the same side, plus I have more room on this side of the plate if I decide to mount the plate, motor and gears at a 45 degree angle to starboard to get more space in the engine room
- Use the 6000 lb hub and spindle ¨C this gives me the capability to support more thrust.?
- Rule of thumb of 20 lbs force for every HP gives me 2000 lbs force, which is within tolerances for this hub and associated bearing.
- Hub:?
- #42 Spindle:?
- Use a motorcycle kit for my sprockets and belts ¨C I¡¯m looking for a 5 to 1 reduction, and that¡¯s really hard to find on Grainger without having a really small engine sprocket. The Zero motorcycle is an electric motorcycle that provides torque only slightly less than the Hyper-9, so I thought it would be a good solution. It¡¯s made for providing power transmission and has a reduction ration of 4.5 to 1 which is good enough (20 teeth to 90 teeth).
- Tighten with one or two idler pulleys ¨C not sure if I will have enough space to tighten much, so will likely need to get belt pretty close to the right size if I even change the engine sprocket to change the reduction ratio.
- In the worst case, I can have one pull in, and another pull out, but that's not ideal
- Battery box will be custom built, as I have 48 Lishen (similar to Eve) 280AH batteries that will take up a lot of room. They will end up on the stays with supports to allow walking on them when I drop into the engine compartment.? Should I call that a motor compartment now? ;-)
Thanks so much for everyone on this list. Dan, I'm really happy you started this thread, and Carsten, you have so much wonderful knowledge. And everyone else has such valuable experience and insight.? Thank you!
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