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My first time on this wonderful info site. I thought my project would be easy. Mothership sailboat has 1k solar power with a 3k Victron inverter Charger powering the usual refer, autopilot, dc water maker and the like. House bank is 800 Ah. She has a Honda 2000 generator but I would dearly want not have to use it. With typical use and southern California/Mexico daylight and uniaxis pv tilt I hit float usually by mid day or so. I want my house bank to never dip below 50% DOD. I want componentry to see the house floating and send remaining power to a separate dedicated inverter??? To power the 120 v charger to drive 200 Ah lithium battery onboard the ding?... Echo charger relay??? I want rapid as possible charging of the dingy battery so I might use the 800 watt dingy motor for 2 hours every day. Any ideas ladies and gentlemen??
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Victron allows you to divert power to other sources once batteries are full.. a common use is to make more/hotter water for domestic use, but I don¡¯t see why you couldn¡¯t divert to another charger instead.
Sadly.. that¡¯s the sharp end of my knowledge. ¡ I¡¯ve seen it implementd but don¡¯t know how it was.
-Rob
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
My first time on this wonderful info site. I thought my project would be easy. Mothership sailboat has 1k solar power with a 3k Victron inverter Charger powering the usual refer, autopilot, dc water maker and the like. House bank is 800 Ah. She has a Honda 2000 generator but I would dearly want not have to use it. With typical use and southern California/Mexico daylight and uniaxis pv tilt I hit float usually by mid day or so. I want my house bank to never dip below 50% DOD. I want componentry to see the house floating and send remaining power to a separate dedicated inverter??? To power the 120 v charger to drive 200 Ah lithium battery onboard the ding?... Echo charger relay??? I want rapid as possible charging of the dingy battery so I might use the 800 watt dingy motor for 2 hours every day. Any ideas ladies and gentlemen??
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I hope I¡¯m on the right track. Let¡¯s say you have a mothership isolated AGM battery bank for the house and start batteries and as well as a second mppt isolated for the lithium battery bank for the electric dingy with its own charging profile. Could you make the Victron settings on two separate mppts to match each banks charging needs. The input current from the PV could be the line current that could be switched to the mppt current to a dedicated AGM with AGM charging profile, and a second mppt charger set for lithium charging.? And switch between one or the other depending on which battery bank you want charged. If it could be done automatically prioritizing the house that would be fantastic so it would be self selecting. What do you ladies and gentlemen think? Victron only because that¡¯s what¡¯s been exclusively used so want to keep with the Victron brand which I really like.
On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 8:02 AM Rob Hepler < rob@...> wrote: Victron allows you to divert power to other sources once batteries are full.. a common use is to make more/hotter water for domestic use, but I don¡¯t see why you couldn¡¯t divert to another charger instead.
Sadly.. that¡¯s the sharp end of my knowledge. ¡ I¡¯ve seen it implementd but don¡¯t know how it was.
-Rob
My first time on this wonderful info site. I thought my project would be easy. Mothership sailboat has 1k solar power with a 3k Victron inverter Charger powering the usual refer, autopilot, dc water maker and the like. House bank is 800 Ah. She has a Honda 2000 generator but I would dearly want not have to use it. With typical use and southern California/Mexico daylight and uniaxis pv tilt I hit float usually by mid day or so. I want my house bank to never dip below 50% DOD. I want componentry to see the house floating and send remaining power to a separate dedicated inverter??? To power the 120 v charger to drive 200 Ah lithium battery onboard the ding?... Echo charger relay??? I want rapid as possible charging of the dingy battery so I might use the 800 watt dingy motor for 2 hours every day. Any ideas ladies and gentlemen??
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Because each battery bank has its own charge profile. So each mppt should be set up for the two very specific and ?different charging profiles? On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 6:19 PM mosslandingcreatures via Groups.Io <mosslandingcreatures= [email protected]> wrote:
I hope I¡¯m on the right track. Let¡¯s say you have a mothership isolated AGM battery bank for the house and start batteries and as well as a second mppt isolated for the lithium battery bank for the electric dingy with its own charging profile. Could you make the Victron settings on two separate mppts to match each banks charging needs. The input current from the PV could be the line current that could be switched to the mppt current to a dedicated AGM with AGM charging profile, and a second mppt charger set for lithium charging.? And switch between one or the other depending on which battery bank you want charged. If it could be done automatically prioritizing the house that would be fantastic so it would be self selecting. What do you ladies and gentlemen think? Victron only because that¡¯s what¡¯s been exclusively used so want to keep with the Victron brand which I really like. On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 8:02 AM Rob Hepler < rob@...> wrote: Victron allows you to divert power to other sources once batteries are full.. a common use is to make more/hotter water for domestic use, but I don¡¯t see why you couldn¡¯t divert to another charger instead.
Sadly.. that¡¯s the sharp end of my knowledge. ¡ I¡¯ve seen it implementd but don¡¯t know how it was.
-Rob
My first time on this wonderful info site. I thought my project would be easy. Mothership sailboat has 1k solar power with a 3k Victron inverter Charger powering the usual refer, autopilot, dc water maker and the like. House bank is 800 Ah. She has a Honda 2000 generator but I would dearly want not have to use it. With typical use and southern California/Mexico daylight and uniaxis pv tilt I hit float usually by mid day or so. I want my house bank to never dip below 50% DOD. I want componentry to see the house floating and send remaining power to a separate dedicated inverter??? To power the 120 v charger to drive 200 Ah lithium battery onboard the ding?... Echo charger relay??? I want rapid as possible charging of the dingy battery so I might use the 800 watt dingy motor for 2 hours every day. Any ideas ladies and gentlemen??
|
Your post raises more questions.?
Do the panels follow the sun?... my panels when flat produce 1/4 the power.? At best 4/5ths of rated power.?
Just because the voltage is up mid day tells you nothing. When you turn the panel switch off what is the battery bank reading?
The last 20% of a lead acid bank can take more than ten hours.
800w motor, 1000w panel. 2hrs at 800w=1600w. Real numbers on the array bet more like 300w if flat.?
Check the numbers for your installation.?
If dink is high priority, consider splitting the array and dedicating some to the dink. Or add panels to the dink.?
Kevin
My first time on this wonderful info site. I thought my project would be easy. Mothership sailboat has 1k solar power with a 3k Victron inverter Charger powering the usual refer, autopilot, dc water maker and the like. House bank is 800 Ah. She has a Honda 2000 generator but I would dearly want not have to use it. With typical use and southern California/Mexico daylight and uniaxis pv tilt I hit float usually by mid day or so. I want my house bank to never dip below 50% DOD. I want componentry to see the house floating and send remaining power to a separate dedicated inverter??? To power the 120 v charger to drive 200 Ah lithium battery onboard the ding?... Echo charger relay??? I want rapid as possible charging of the dingy battery so I might use the 800 watt dingy motor for 2 hours every day. Any ideas ladies and gentlemen??
|
Uni axis currently tilted manually. Wish I knew of a durable reliable automatic tracker but everything I see online seems like it won¡¯t hold up to Ocean cruising environment. Do you know of one? I was just introduced to the Victron smart Cyrix. It seems like the answer? Thank you for your calcs and assistance! Let me know what you think.
Your post raises more questions.?
Do the panels follow the sun?... my panels when flat produce 1/4 the power.? At best 4/5ths of rated power.?
Just because the voltage is up mid day tells you nothing. When you turn the panel switch off what is the battery bank reading?
The last 20% of a lead acid bank can take more than ten hours.
800w motor, 1000w panel. 2hrs at 800w=1600w. Real numbers on the array bet more like 300w if flat.?
Check the numbers for your installation.?
If dink is high priority, consider splitting the array and dedicating some to the dink. Or add panels to the dink.?
Kevin
My first time on this wonderful info site. I thought my project would be easy. Mothership sailboat has 1k solar power with a 3k Victron inverter Charger powering the usual refer, autopilot, dc water maker and the like. House bank is 800 Ah. She has a Honda 2000 generator but I would dearly want not have to use it. With typical use and southern California/Mexico daylight and uniaxis pv tilt I hit float usually by mid day or so. I want my house bank to never dip below 50% DOD. I want componentry to see the house floating and send remaining power to a separate dedicated inverter??? To power the 120 v charger to drive 200 Ah lithium battery onboard the ding?... Echo charger relay??? I want rapid as possible charging of the dingy battery so I might use the 800 watt dingy motor for 2 hours every day. Any ideas ladies and gentlemen??
|
I would agree. Most mounting must be industrial quality. After seeing almost anything fly off deck though well lashed down, manual setting works best.
My experiments tell me in a stationary setting tilting panels every 1 or 2 hours will yield enough power that any other effort is just wasted.?
Another issue is shadowing. When one panel is partly shaded,the whole is brought down...For this?reason I recommend a controller for every panel in the system.?
I? have more but I am not on the computer.?
Uni axis currently tilted manually. Wish I knew of a durable reliable automatic tracker but everything I see online seems like it won¡¯t hold up to Ocean cruising environment. Do you know of one? I was just introduced to the Victron smart Cyrix. It seems like the answer? Thank you for your calcs and assistance! Let me know what you think. Your post raises more questions.?
Do the panels follow the sun?... my panels when flat produce 1/4 the power.? At best 4/5ths of rated power.?
Just because the voltage is up mid day tells you nothing. When you turn the panel switch off what is the battery bank reading?
The last 20% of a lead acid bank can take more than ten hours.
800w motor, 1000w panel. 2hrs at 800w=1600w. Real numbers on the array bet more like 300w if flat.?
Check the numbers for your installation.?
If dink is high priority, consider splitting the array and dedicating some to the dink. Or add panels to the dink.?
Kevin
My first time on this wonderful info site. I thought my project would be easy. Mothership sailboat has 1k solar power with a 3k Victron inverter Charger powering the usual refer, autopilot, dc water maker and the like. House bank is 800 Ah. She has a Honda 2000 generator but I would dearly want not have to use it. With typical use and southern California/Mexico daylight and uniaxis pv tilt I hit float usually by mid day or so. I want my house bank to never dip below 50% DOD. I want componentry to see the house floating and send remaining power to a separate dedicated inverter??? To power the 120 v charger to drive 200 Ah lithium battery onboard the ding?... Echo charger relay??? I want rapid as possible charging of the dingy battery so I might use the 800 watt dingy motor for 2 hours every day. Any ideas ladies and gentlemen??
|
And adjusting the panels is fun. Gives an old retired guy something to do! I have 6 panels and 4 controllers so we are on the same pathway. Thank you for the coraboration!
I would agree. Most mounting must be industrial quality. After seeing almost anything fly off deck though well lashed down, manual setting works best.
My experiments tell me in a stationary setting tilting panels every 1 or 2 hours will yield enough power that any other effort is just wasted.?
Another issue is shadowing. When one panel is partly shaded,the whole is brought down...For this?reason I recommend a controller for every panel in the system.?
I? have more but I am not on the computer.?
Uni axis currently tilted manually. Wish I knew of a durable reliable automatic tracker but everything I see online seems like it won¡¯t hold up to Ocean cruising environment. Do you know of one? I was just introduced to the Victron smart Cyrix. It seems like the answer? Thank you for your calcs and assistance! Let me know what you think. Your post raises more questions.?
Do the panels follow the sun?... my panels when flat produce 1/4 the power.? At best 4/5ths of rated power.?
Just because the voltage is up mid day tells you nothing. When you turn the panel switch off what is the battery bank reading?
The last 20% of a lead acid bank can take more than ten hours.
800w motor, 1000w panel. 2hrs at 800w=1600w. Real numbers on the array bet more like 300w if flat.?
Check the numbers for your installation.?
If dink is high priority, consider splitting the array and dedicating some to the dink. Or add panels to the dink.?
Kevin
My first time on this wonderful info site. I thought my project would be easy. Mothership sailboat has 1k solar power with a 3k Victron inverter Charger powering the usual refer, autopilot, dc water maker and the like. House bank is 800 Ah. She has a Honda 2000 generator but I would dearly want not have to use it. With typical use and southern California/Mexico daylight and uniaxis pv tilt I hit float usually by mid day or so. I want my house bank to never dip below 50% DOD. I want componentry to see the house floating and send remaining power to a separate dedicated inverter??? To power the 120 v charger to drive 200 Ah lithium battery onboard the ding?... Echo charger relay??? I want rapid as possible charging of the dingy battery so I might use the 800 watt dingy motor for 2 hours every day. Any ideas ladies and gentlemen??
|
Speaking of shadowing, if you have a bunch of solar panels... maybe
a wind generator and regen, what do you do? Do you take a number of
controllers and gang them together, or is there a controller with
maybe 10-15 inputs that someone could recommend for not a huge
price?
On 3/5/2020 2:46 PM, Kevin Pemberton
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I would agree. Most mounting must be industrial
quality. After seeing almost anything fly off deck though well
lashed down, manual setting works best.
My experiments tell me in a stationary setting
tilting panels every 1 or 2 hours will yield enough power that
any other effort is just wasted.?
Another issue is shadowing. When one panel is
partly shaded,the whole is brought down...For this?reason I
recommend a controller for every panel in the system.?
I? have more but I am not on the computer.?
Uni axis currently tilted manually. Wish I
knew of a durable reliable automatic tracker but
everything I see online seems like it won¡¯t hold up to
Ocean cruising environment. Do you know of one? I was just
introduced to the Victron smart Cyrix. It seems like the
answer? Thank you for your calcs and assistance! Let me
know what you think.
Your post raises more questions.?
Do the panels follow the sun?... my
panels when flat produce 1/4 the power.? At best
4/5ths of rated power.?
Just because the voltage is up mid day
tells you nothing. When you turn the panel switch
off what is the battery bank reading?
The last 20% of a lead acid bank can
take more than ten hours.
800w motor, 1000w panel. 2hrs at
800w=1600w. Real numbers on the array bet more like
300w if flat.?
Check the numbers for your
installation.?
If dink is high priority, consider
splitting the array and dedicating some to the dink.
Or add panels to the dink.?
Kevin
My
first time on this wonderful info site. I thought my
project would be easy. Mothership sailboat has 1k
solar power with a 3k Victron inverter Charger
powering the usual refer, autopilot, dc water maker
and the like. House bank is 800 Ah. She has a Honda
2000 generator but I would dearly want not have to
use it. With typical use and southern
California/Mexico daylight and uniaxis pv tilt I hit
float usually by mid day or so. I want my house bank
to never dip below 50% DOD. I want componentry to
see the house floating and send remaining power to a
separate dedicated inverter??? To power the 120 v
charger to drive 200 Ah lithium battery onboard the
ding?... Echo charger relay??? I want rapid as
possible charging of the dingy battery so I might
use the 800 watt dingy motor for 2 hours every day.
Any ideas ladies and gentlemen??
|
Because I¡¯m a layman with limited electrical expertise I can only say ¡°I¡¯ve heard it¡¯s best that the electrical harvest devises be the same as each if either paralleled or series connected together or the controller will be confused or the stronger or weaker ?of the two will bring the other down¡±
On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 9:50 PM Bill Farina < bill@...> wrote:
Speaking of shadowing, if you have a bunch of solar panels... maybe
a wind generator and regen, what do you do? Do you take a number of
controllers and gang them together, or is there a controller with
maybe 10-15 inputs that someone could recommend for not a huge
price?
On 3/5/2020 2:46 PM, Kevin Pemberton
wrote:
I would agree. Most mounting must be industrial
quality. After seeing almost anything fly off deck though well
lashed down, manual setting works best.
My experiments tell me in a stationary setting
tilting panels every 1 or 2 hours will yield enough power that
any other effort is just wasted.?
Another issue is shadowing. When one panel is
partly shaded,the whole is brought down...For this?reason I
recommend a controller for every panel in the system.?
I? have more but I am not on the computer.?
Uni axis currently tilted manually. Wish I
knew of a durable reliable automatic tracker but
everything I see online seems like it won¡¯t hold up to
Ocean cruising environment. Do you know of one? I was just
introduced to the Victron smart Cyrix. It seems like the
answer? Thank you for your calcs and assistance! Let me
know what you think.
Your post raises more questions.?
Do the panels follow the sun?... my
panels when flat produce 1/4 the power.? At best
4/5ths of rated power.?
Just because the voltage is up mid day
tells you nothing. When you turn the panel switch
off what is the battery bank reading?
The last 20% of a lead acid bank can
take more than ten hours.
800w motor, 1000w panel. 2hrs at
800w=1600w. Real numbers on the array bet more like
300w if flat.?
Check the numbers for your
installation.?
If dink is high priority, consider
splitting the array and dedicating some to the dink.
Or add panels to the dink.?
Kevin
My
first time on this wonderful info site. I thought my
project would be easy. Mothership sailboat has 1k
solar power with a 3k Victron inverter Charger
powering the usual refer, autopilot, dc water maker
and the like. House bank is 800 Ah. She has a Honda
2000 generator but I would dearly want not have to
use it. With typical use and southern
California/Mexico daylight and uniaxis pv tilt I hit
float usually by mid day or so. I want my house bank
to never dip below 50% DOD. I want componentry to
see the house floating and send remaining power to a
separate dedicated inverter??? To power the 120 v
charger to drive 200 Ah lithium battery onboard the
ding?... Echo charger relay??? I want rapid as
possible charging of the dingy battery so I might
use the 800 watt dingy motor for 2 hours every day.
Any ideas ladies and gentlemen??
|
The reason that I asked was because I'm in the planning stages of
purchasing a sailboat and I'm kind of fond of my electricity. With
all the things on a sailboat that can shadow a solar panel and since
a shadow over a single panel can severely attenuate the output of
all the panels that are ganged together with that panel, it makes
sense to wire each panel separately into the controller so that this
doesn't happen. Most of the controllers that I'm seeing have space
for three pairs of wire. I've seen a couple of examples where there
are two or three of these controllers connected together. In my mind
it's better to have a single controller to handle all the electrical
generation sources on the boat. (This conversation seems to be
wandering way off course and I'm not helping things.)
On 3/6/2020 1:42 AM,
mosslandingcreatures wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Because I¡¯m a layman with limited electrical
expertise I can only say ¡°I¡¯ve heard it¡¯s best that the
electrical harvest devises be the same as each if either
paralleled or series connected together or the controller will
be confused or the stronger or weaker ?of the two will bring
the other down¡±
On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 9:50
PM Bill Farina < bill@...> wrote:
Speaking of shadowing, if you have a bunch of solar
panels... maybe a wind generator and regen, what do you
do? Do you take a number of controllers and gang them
together, or is there a controller with maybe 10-15 inputs
that someone could recommend for not a huge price?
On 3/5/2020 2:46 PM, Kevin Pemberton wrote:
I would agree. Most mounting must be
industrial quality. After seeing almost anything fly
off deck though well lashed down, manual setting works
best.
My experiments tell me in a stationary
setting tilting panels every 1 or 2 hours will yield
enough power that any other effort is just wasted.?
Another issue is shadowing. When one
panel is partly shaded,the whole is brought
down...For this?reason I recommend a controller for
every panel in the system.?
I? have more but I am not on the
computer.?
Uni axis currently tilted
manually. Wish I knew of a durable reliable
automatic tracker but everything I see online
seems like it won¡¯t hold up to Ocean cruising
environment. Do you know of one? I was just
introduced to the Victron smart Cyrix. It seems
like the answer? Thank you for your calcs and
assistance! Let me know what you think.
Your post raises more
questions.?
Do the panels follow the
sun?... my panels when flat produce 1/4
the power.? At best 4/5ths of rated
power.?
Just because the voltage is
up mid day tells you nothing. When you
turn the panel switch off what is the
battery bank reading?
The last 20% of a lead acid
bank can take more than ten hours.
800w motor, 1000w panel.
2hrs at 800w=1600w. Real numbers on the
array bet more like 300w if flat.?
Check the numbers for your
installation.?
If dink is high priority,
consider splitting the array and
dedicating some to the dink. Or add panels
to the dink.?
Kevin
My first time
on this wonderful info site. I thought my
project would be easy. Mothership sailboat
has 1k solar power with a 3k Victron
inverter Charger powering the usual refer,
autopilot, dc water maker and the like.
House bank is 800 Ah. She has a Honda 2000
generator but I would dearly want not have
to use it. With typical use and southern
California/Mexico daylight and uniaxis pv
tilt I hit float usually by mid day or so.
I want my house bank to never dip below
50% DOD. I want componentry to see the
house floating and send remaining power to
a separate dedicated inverter??? To power
the 120 v charger to drive 200 Ah lithium
battery onboard the ding?... Echo charger
relay??? I want rapid as possible charging
of the dingy battery so I might use the
800 watt dingy motor for 2 hours every
day. Any ideas ladies and gentlemen??
|
actually Bill just a single cell being shaded brings down the panel. I suggest?a controller for every panel. I have seen panels shaded by a tree that over time discolor due to heat. In fact a panel that is shaded by a sail completely is better off, but will produce very little.
You can look at solar?panels thinking?of the panel, or cell as the cell in a battery bank. One cell goes and the whole bank goes down. Only thing you can do is electrically isolate every battery/panel. This is done with each panel having it's own controller.
The controllers can all feed the same battery bank.
so one more time for clarity. each solar panel gets it's own controller and all controllers feed the same bank. If you have a BMS/ battery monitor you will see a great increase of power going to the bank.
Kevin
On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 7:47 PM Bill Farina < bill@...> wrote:
The reason that I asked was because I'm in the planning stages of
purchasing a sailboat and I'm kind of fond of my electricity. With
all the things on a sailboat that can shadow a solar panel and since
a shadow over a single panel can severely attenuate the output of
all the panels that are ganged together with that panel, it makes
sense to wire each panel separately into the controller so that this
doesn't happen. Most of the controllers that I'm seeing have space
for three pairs of wire. I've seen a couple of examples where there
are two or three of these controllers connected together. In my mind
it's better to have a single controller to handle all the electrical
generation sources on the boat. (This conversation seems to be
wandering way off course and I'm not helping things.)
On 3/6/2020 1:42 AM,
mosslandingcreatures wrote:
Because I¡¯m a layman with limited electrical
expertise I can only say ¡°I¡¯ve heard it¡¯s best that the
electrical harvest devises be the same as each if either
paralleled or series connected together or the controller will
be confused or the stronger or weaker ?of the two will bring
the other down¡±
On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 9:50
PM Bill Farina < bill@...> wrote:
Speaking of shadowing, if you have a bunch of solar
panels... maybe a wind generator and regen, what do you
do? Do you take a number of controllers and gang them
together, or is there a controller with maybe 10-15 inputs
that someone could recommend for not a huge price?
On 3/5/2020 2:46 PM, Kevin Pemberton wrote:
I would agree. Most mounting must be
industrial quality. After seeing almost anything fly
off deck though well lashed down, manual setting works
best.
My experiments tell me in a stationary
setting tilting panels every 1 or 2 hours will yield
enough power that any other effort is just wasted.?
Another issue is shadowing. When one
panel is partly shaded,the whole is brought
down...For this?reason I recommend a controller for
every panel in the system.?
I? have more but I am not on the
computer.?
Uni axis currently tilted
manually. Wish I knew of a durable reliable
automatic tracker but everything I see online
seems like it won¡¯t hold up to Ocean cruising
environment. Do you know of one? I was just
introduced to the Victron smart Cyrix. It seems
like the answer? Thank you for your calcs and
assistance! Let me know what you think.
Your post raises more
questions.?
Do the panels follow the
sun?... my panels when flat produce 1/4
the power.? At best 4/5ths of rated
power.?
Just because the voltage is
up mid day tells you nothing. When you
turn the panel switch off what is the
battery bank reading?
The last 20% of a lead acid
bank can take more than ten hours.
800w motor, 1000w panel.
2hrs at 800w=1600w. Real numbers on the
array bet more like 300w if flat.?
Check the numbers for your
installation.?
If dink is high priority,
consider splitting the array and
dedicating some to the dink. Or add panels
to the dink.?
Kevin
My first time
on this wonderful info site. I thought my
project would be easy. Mothership sailboat
has 1k solar power with a 3k Victron
inverter Charger powering the usual refer,
autopilot, dc water maker and the like.
House bank is 800 Ah. She has a Honda 2000
generator but I would dearly want not have
to use it. With typical use and southern
California/Mexico daylight and uniaxis pv
tilt I hit float usually by mid day or so.
I want my house bank to never dip below
50% DOD. I want componentry to see the
house floating and send remaining power to
a separate dedicated inverter??? To power
the 120 v charger to drive 200 Ah lithium
battery onboard the ding?... Echo charger
relay??? I want rapid as possible charging
of the dingy battery so I might use the
800 watt dingy motor for 2 hours every
day. Any ideas ladies and gentlemen??
|
