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[Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
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Mark, your Albin 27 is a slippery boat, much like the Pearson Triden or Alberg. ? I can believe the numbers at that speed... ?Dave K From: acsarfkram To: electricboats@... Sent: Sat, November 27, 2010 9:44:34 PM Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 Hi Eric, I've posted this before; 4 West Marine (East Penn) group 27's and 4 universal UB121100 group 30's. It was dead calm when we motored for this long. We had the main up the entire time and tried varying amounts of headsail (we had a lot of time to play around :-). When the headsail was unfurled we would keep weight to leaward which would keep the sail somewhat full. I think you do get "lift" from the sail in this configuration like an aircraft but That's just my "feeling" I have no proof. My PakTrakr is down below so I do not constantly see my current draw and I was using the GPS at the helm and keeping the speed at 3 knots. Every time I checked the amp usage it was between 18 and 21 amps. I totally understand your skepticism, the numbers don't work but I think there may be some sort of "Black Magic" in pushing a sailboat hull through a thick fluid and thin airfoils through a thin fluid. Boy that ought to go over well with this group :-) I look forward to you actually using your system and documenting your performance. Mark Santa Cruz --- In electricboats@..., "Eric" wrote: > > Mark, > > You've posted these results before and the impressive part is that you pulled 140Ah (20A x 7hrs) out of 100Ah batteries and had some left over.? While I am not discounting your accomplishment, I would not recommend that other people count on getting the same results from the same setup.? If you share the specific brand and model of battery that you are using, then more people here can take advantage of these under-rated batteries. > > Fair winds, > Eric > > --- In electricboats@..., "acsarfkram" wrote: > > > > Hi Glenn, > > > > With my Ericson 27, (7000lbs before batteries) I have motored for 7 hrs at a draw of 20 amps.... > > > > During that trip I used only one of the two 48 volt 100 amp hr banks that I have.... > > > > I understand the theory dictates lower run times but I would be interested in what people are getting in real life. > > > > Mark > > Santa Cruz > > > > > > > > --- In electricboats@..., "Glenn Dennis" wrote: > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > Thanks for the input, IMO the battery is key here. > > > > > > > > The actual power required to push the boat and the reserve capacity was what I was unsure of. It's good to get advice from some one who has experience in the field rather than just going it alone. Truthfully I had been more interested in the mechanical part of the system and did not put much effort in calculating the battery requirements. I was a little optimistic on range but I could start with smaller pack and go larger later. L/A or AGM will certainly add a lot of weight, maybe a smaller lithium pack, say 40 or 50 Ah and generator (Hybrid) would be the way to go. Several things to consider and of course cost; the boat although in very good shape is 39 years old. > > > > > > > > Glenn > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: ? ? <*> Your email settings: ? ? Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: ? ? ? ? (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: ? ? electricboats-digest@... ? ? electricboats-fullfeatured@... <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ? ? electricboats-unsubscribe@... <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: ? ? |
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Hi Dave,
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My boat is actually a Bruce King designed 1976 Ericson 27. And my current motoring numbers are better now that I have a larger (12x10) three blade prop; 4 knots at 20 amps. Mark Santa Cruz --- In electricboats@..., Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...> wrote:
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Dave,
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I agree. Mark's reported watts to knots performance is perfectly reasonable. Fair winds, Eric --- In electricboats@..., Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...> wrote:
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Mark, I hope I can get those good numbers in tests to come, have done pretty close with my ChrisCraft Capri 30. ?My drive prop is a 14X12 three blade that I've ducted with a Rice speed nozzle modified. ?Thrust is great and the preliminary numbers are close to yours. ? For a 12000 boat that isn't as slippery as yours its pretty good, but I'm still working on the system. ?My boat needed a total rebuild inside and out so it wasn't just a put the electrics in place. ? I've build a 5 blade 11 pitch prop from composite, I am not as concerned about push as I am about developing the best prop for regen while sailing.... ?a topic that everyone says isn't worth the effort, I disagree and will continue the project until I have things in working condition...
? as Winston Churchill once said, "don't ever, ever, give up".... ?chuckle.... ?I won't... Dave K From: acsarfkram To: electricboats@... Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 1:03:15 PM Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 Hi Dave, My boat is actually a Bruce King designed 1976 Ericson 27. And my current motoring numbers are better now that I have a larger (12x10) three blade prop; 4 knots at 20 amps. Mark Santa Cruz |
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Dave,
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Hope the regen works out...keep us posted.
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John
From: Dave Kellogg To: electricboats@... Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 8:01:55 PM Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 ?
Mark,
I hope I can get those good numbers in tests to come, have done pretty close with my ChrisCraft Capri 30. ?My drive prop is a 14X12 three blade that I've ducted with a Rice speed nozzle modified. ?Thrust is great and the preliminary numbers are close to yours. ? For a 12000 boat that isn't as slippery as yours its pretty good, but I'm still working on the system. ?My boat needed a total rebuild inside and out so it wasn't just a put the electrics in place. ? I've build a 5 blade 11 pitch prop from composite, I am not as concerned about push as I am about developing the best prop for regen while sailing.... ?a topic that everyone says isn't worth the effort, I disagree and will continue the project until I have things in working condition... ? as Winston Churchill once said, "don't ever, ever, give up".... ?chuckle.... ?I won't...
Dave K
From: acsarfkram To: electricboats@... Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 1:03:15 PM Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 Hi Dave, My boat is actually a Bruce King designed 1976 Ericson 27. And my current motoring numbers are better now that I have a larger (12x10) three blade prop; 4 knots at 20 amps. Mark Santa Cruz |
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¿ªÔÆÌåÓýHere¡¯s to those NaySayers that say regen doesn¡¯t work.? Here¡¯s some
boats that are doing it using towed gens as well as the free wheeling the
prop/dc motor in regen mode.
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? From: Dave Kellogg
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin
27 ?
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Mark,
I hope I can get those good numbers in tests to come, have done pretty
close with my ChrisCraft Capri 30.? My drive prop is a 14X12 three blade
that I've ducted with a Rice speed nozzle modified.? Thrust is great and
the preliminary numbers are close to yours.?? For a 12000 boat that
isn't as slippery as yours its pretty good, but I'm still working on the
system.? My boat needed a total rebuild inside and out so it wasn't just a
put the electrics in place.?? I've build a 5 blade 11 pitch prop from
composite, I am not as concerned about push as I am about developing the best
prop for regen while sailing....? a topic that everyone says isn't worth
the effort, I disagree and will continue the project until I have things in
working condition...?? as Winston Churchill once said, "don't ever,
ever, give up"....? chuckle....? I won't...
?
Dave K
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From: acsarfkram To: electricboats@... Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 1:03:15 PM Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 Hi Dave, My boat is actually a Bruce King designed 1976 Ericson 27. And my current motoring numbers are better now that I have a larger (12x10) three blade prop; 4 knots at 20 amps. Mark Santa Cruz |
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--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Dave Kellogg wrote:
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Mike, Won't think of giving up, just going a different route.... ? Starting at the root, not the back end in the controller. ? The prop and the efficiency of that system is my starting place, when I have that in my grasps at 2 knots.....(I hear some faint chuckles out there) ?that's the speed that almost all sailors can get... ? the beat goes on, but it starts with the prop.. ? Dave K From: Mike To: electricboats@... Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 7:59:46 AM Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
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--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Dave Kellogg wrote:
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I've done some experiments on different boats in reference to drag, consistently the lighter the boat the drag affect goes up, tremendously. ? I started with my old San Juan 21, a light little boat that will give you a response on anything. ? My pretend propeller and nozzle would take nearly 2 knots off the speed when dragging. ? On a friends boat weighing 16000, we couldn't see much at all, I mean 1/4 to 1/2 knot and that was a guess as the wind wasn't that steady and under power it was closer to 1/4 knot. ?So using that as a bench mark the boat itself makes a big part of the equation.. ?? Dave K From: Steamboat Willie To: electricboats@... Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 8:34:17 AM Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
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Hi Mike,
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What kind of numbers are you getting with regen? I have seen +4amps (@48 volts) sailing at 6 knots. That was not consistent, The current monitor would register from 0 amps to +4 amps and more time around +2 amps than +4. Mark Santa Cruz --- In electricboats@..., Mike <biankablog@...> wrote:
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Ron
Dave,
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You made a great point about weight, a large mass in motion will be less sensitive to extracting a regen value. I'll throw out an idea, but will not try to explain in too much detail, as I can never say things just right. A two function design using the nozzle you mention, a small high speed power prop inside the nozzle and the nozzle turns as a large regen unit, having several blades on the outside diameter that can be feathered for least resistance when the power prop is in use, then feathered for maximum regen when being powered by wind or current movment. So basiclly a two prop system. Massive torque and high speed power seem to always be on opposite ends of where they are needed. Ron --- In electricboats@..., Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...> wrote:
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Question Ron, how much room do you have under your waterline? ? I only had enough room for a 14 inch prop and a 1 inch cross section nozzle, and I had to make some real changes in my rudder... ? Room is the problem.. ? Dave K ? PS... ? I have some pictures in the album section. From: Ron To: electricboats@... Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 1:58:40 PM Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 Dave, You made a great point about weight, a large mass in motion will be less sensitive to extracting a regen value. I'll throw out an idea, but will not try to explain in too much detail, as I can never say things just right. A two function design using the nozzle you mention, a small high speed power prop inside the nozzle and the nozzle turns as a large regen unit, having several blades on the outside diameter that can be feathered for least resistance when the power prop is in use, then feathered for maximum regen when being powered by wind or current movment. So basiclly a two prop system. Massive torque and high speed power seem to always be on opposite ends of where they are needed. Ron |
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Ron
Dave, Sorry if I posted out of context, it was a flash of mechanics and no thought of restrictions of the present hull.
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If it has any value at all, it might require a complete new boat design to make it practical. Ron --- In electricboats@..., Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...> wrote:
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Ron, have you ever gone to a "brain storm session", we used to have them at Apple all the time and you could throw out any thoughts that came to mind. ? This idea isn't so far fetched at all, it just needs room. ? I may be a little of a maniac but I have 4 sailboats from 17 to 37 on deck so it gives me a wide range of test platforms, love it... ? What does and old retired, tired inganear do? ? He works on projects... ? chuckle ? ?Who said we have to stay conventional?.... ?out of the box thoughts are accepted, at least by me.. ?chuckle... ? if ?you have a chance take a look at the Redeemed album, needed a total rebuild, it would have been a reef if anyone else would have got her... ?Dave K PS: ? if anyone is looking for a perfect platform for a slippery electric sailboat conversion that is a solid boat a friend of mine has one. ? James Baldwin has an Alberg 30 on a trailer in southeast Georgia that would be perfect, all the rigging and sails, just needs the interior and what ever auxiliary power you want to put in it.. I believe he has it on his web site ? ? From: Ron To: electricboats@... Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 2:35:15 PM Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 Dave, Sorry if I posted out of context, it was a flash of mechanics and no thought of restrictions of the present hull. If it has any value at all, it might require a complete new boat design to make it practical. Ron --- In electricboats@..., Dave Kellogg wrote: > > Question Ron, how much room do you have under your waterline?? I only had > enough room for a 14 inch prop and a 1 inch cross section nozzle, and I had to > make some real changes in my rudder...? Room is the problem..? Dave K? > > PS...? I have some pictures in the album section. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ron > To: electricboats@... > Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 1:58:40 PM > Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 > > Dave, > You made a great point about weight, a large mass in motion will be less > sensitive to extracting a regen value. > I'll throw out an idea, but will not try to explain in too much detail, as I can > never say things just right. > > A two function design using the nozzle you mention, a small high speed power > prop inside the nozzle and the nozzle turns as a large regen unit, having > several blades on the outside diameter that can be feathered for least > resistance when the power prop is in use, then feathered for maximum regen when > being powered by wind or current movment. > So basiclly a two prop system. Massive torque and high speed power seem to > always be on opposite ends of where they are needed. > > Ron > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: ? ? <*> Your email settings: ? ? Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: ? ? ? ? (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: ? ? electricboats-digest@... ? ? electricboats-fullfeatured@... <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ? ? electricboats-unsubscribe@... <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: ? ? |
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Bill Spires
I am all in favor of converting sailboats to electric and looked at an Alberg 30 myself.? I quickly realized that it would be too large and needs about 6 ft of water for the keel.? I also found out there?are several very active fleets for these boats and many sailors still using them for long voyages.? I feel?that to convert one for electric would remove one more Alberg 30 from the remaining possible fleet group and would?ask that?another boat be considered.? Of course if it's about to be chopped up and?become landfill material a conversion would be better.
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Capt. Bill?
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Daniel Michaels
--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Bill Spires wrote:
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¿ªÔÆÌåÓýSure regen works!? But what you offered as an example (towed gens) is not technically regen---we use ¡°regen¡± to refer to using an electric drive motor as generator when the medium (in this case, water) can back drive the motor.? The towed generators are not used to drive the boat but instead solely used to generate electricity---hence ¡°regen¡± doesn¡¯t really apply. On performance: If you read the last paragraph of the weblink you provided, ¡°Final Note:? On our last overnight run¡we were seeing a steady 10-12 amps going into the house bank with the tow generator and mast-head mounted wind generator whirling away¡Not bad for 15-18 kts of wind and 6 knots of boat speed.¡± Translation: a total of 250watts delivered from BOTH an Ampair wind generator AND an Aquair water-powered tow-generator.? He mentioned the Aquair delivers 2amps for each knot above 4kts.? So at 6kts, that¡¯s either 4 or 6amps (depending on how you read their statement).? Assuming it¡¯s 6amps, that¡¯s about 70watts from the Aquair (at 6kts) and about 180watts from the Ampair (at 15-kts of wind). How significant or valuable is 70watts of generated power at 6knots?? Depends.? For an electric, strictly power boat not expecting to anchor in 6kts of current, it¡¯s meaningless.? For an electric sailboat that could easily be driven 6knots or greater from wind, the value of capturing water power to generate electricity depends.? That 70watts will likely be delivered at about 60% efficiency.? This means that about 110watts of water power was used to deliver that 70watts.? That slows the boat down a little.? Not much, but say your boat can hit 6knots with 1500watts---that 110watts of power loss could be noticeable.? And even with 10hrs cruising at 6kts with the wind, this would be but 700wh of power delivered to the batteries.? If the wind stopped, that 700wh generated would only allow ? hr of electric cruising----it¡¯s less energy than a single charged T-105 battery carries.? Not trivial, but the numbers are important.?? Bottom line is that each sailboat owner needs to go thru the scenarios to see if it makes sense for them.? Price point ends up being key.? With an electric sailboat, paying a little extra for regen in a controller is probably justified for many.? For others, it¡¯s not. -Myles Twete, electric bargeboat ¡°The Reach Of Tide¡± ? ? ? ? From: electricboats@... [mailto:electricboats@...] On Behalf Of Larry Doyle
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 8:20 PM To: electricboats@... Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 ? ? Here¡¯s to those NaySayers that say regen doesn¡¯t work.? Here¡¯s some boats that are doing it using towed gens as well as the free wheeling the prop/dc motor in regen mode. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? From: Dave Kellogg Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 ? ? Mark, I hope I can get those good numbers in tests to come, have done pretty close with my ChrisCraft Capri 30.? My drive prop is a 14X12 three blade that I've ducted with a Rice speed nozzle modified.? Thrust is great and the preliminary numbers are close to yours.?? For a 12000 boat that isn't as slippery as yours its pretty good, but I'm still working on the system.? My boat needed a total rebuild inside and out so it wasn't just a put the electrics in place.?? I've build a 5 blade 11 pitch prop from composite, I am not as concerned about push as I am about developing the best prop for regen while sailing....? a topic that everyone says isn't worth the effort, I disagree and will continue the project until I have things in working condition...?? as Winston Churchill once said, "don't ever, ever, give up"....? chuckle....? I won't... ? Dave K ? From: acsarfkram ? |
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¿ªÔÆÌåÓýCorrection: the claim was 10-12amps (presumably into 12v)---that would be nom. 120watts (instead of the 250watts I mentioned) from the combined total of water and air generators. ? From: electricboats@... [mailto:electricboats@...] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 3:28 PM To: electricboats@... Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 ? ? Sure regen works!? But what you offered as an example (towed gens) is not technically regen---we use ¡°regen¡± to refer to using an electric drive motor as generator when the medium (in this case, water) can back drive the motor.? The towed generators are not used to drive the boat but instead solely used to generate electricity---hence ¡°regen¡± doesn¡¯t really apply. On performance: If you read the last paragraph of the weblink you provided, ¡°Final Note:? On our last overnight run¡we were seeing a steady 10-12 amps going into the house bank with the tow generator and mast-head mounted wind generator whirling away¡Not bad for 15-18 kts of wind and 6 knots of boat speed.¡± Translation: a total of 250watts delivered from BOTH an Ampair wind generator AND an Aquair water-powered tow-generator.? He mentioned the Aquair delivers 2amps for each knot above 4kts.? So at 6kts, that¡¯s either 4 or 6amps (depending on how you read their statement).? Assuming it¡¯s 6amps, that¡¯s about 70watts from the Aquair (at 6kts) and about 180watts from the Ampair (at 15-kts of wind). How significant or valuable is 70watts of generated power at 6knots?? Depends.? For an electric, strictly power boat not expecting to anchor in 6kts of current, it¡¯s meaningless.? For an electric sailboat that could easily be driven 6knots or greater from wind, the value of capturing water power to generate electricity depends.? That 70watts will likely be delivered at about 60% efficiency.? This means that about 110watts of water power was used to deliver that 70watts.? That slows the boat down a little.? Not much, but say your boat can hit 6knots with 1500watts---that 110watts of power loss could be noticeable.? And even with 10hrs cruising at 6kts with the wind, this would be but 700wh of power delivered to the batteries.? If the wind stopped, that 700wh generated would only allow ? hr of electric cruising----it¡¯s less energy than a single charged T-105 battery carries.? Not trivial, but the numbers are important.?? Bottom line is that each sailboat owner needs to go thru the scenarios to see if it makes sense for them.? Price point ends up being key.? With an electric sailboat, paying a little extra for regen in a controller is probably justified for many.? For others, it¡¯s not. -Myles Twete, electric bargeboat ¡°The Reach Of Tide¡± ? ? ? ? From: electricboats@... [mailto:electricboats@...] On Behalf Of Larry Doyle ? ? Here¡¯s to those NaySayers that say regen doesn¡¯t work.? Here¡¯s some boats that are doing it using towed gens as well as the free wheeling the prop/dc motor in regen mode. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? From: Dave Kellogg Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 ? ? Mark, I hope I can get those good numbers in tests to come, have done pretty close with my ChrisCraft Capri 30.? My drive prop is a 14X12 three blade that I've ducted with a Rice speed nozzle modified.? Thrust is great and the preliminary numbers are close to yours.?? For a 12000 boat that isn't as slippery as yours its pretty good, but I'm still working on the system.? My boat needed a total rebuild inside and out so it wasn't just a put the electrics in place.?? I've build a 5 blade 11 pitch prop from composite, I am not as concerned about push as I am about developing the best prop for regen while sailing....? a topic that everyone says isn't worth the effort, I disagree and will continue the project until I have things in working condition...?? as Winston Churchill once said, "don't ever, ever, give up"....? chuckle....? I won't... ? Dave K ? From: acsarfkram ? |
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Bill Spires
Depending on how far the class will let you go and what type of conversion you install you may make the boat?ineligible?for one design fleet racing or you may just make it non-competitive. ?The Alberg 30 class seems to have fairly loose rules about engine mods so you may be ok.
?For me the 6 ft draft was a deal killer. ?I am building an electric boat i can beach. From: Daniel Michaels To: electricboats@... Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 5:48:15 PM Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 ?
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