Re: Cells (modules) are dying.
Thanks Jerry, Gives me hope. I just might try that. I have a couple that are below 2, as well. First it was the #6 module, then #5 went, and #12 went about the same time as #5. Do you have the link for that DC power supply you got?
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Re: Cells (modules) are dying.
I will try to bring them back. I had thought from what I read, and what some have told me, that since the voltage for each battery was nearly identical there was no need to balance them. Looks like that was bad advice. I am going to try and bring the zero's back and will be balancing the bank. Thanks for that.
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Re: Cells (modules) are dying.
Peter,
?? I had a bad bms on my house solar bank that resulted in something like you had. In my experience the ones on the positive end (number 15 and 16 go first. I had one at zero and another at around 1.5v. I have a small DC power supply (about $50) from Amazon. Put that on them individually at 3.2v and after about a week they were back up to 3.4v. The zero volt one made it another year before swelling and failing. The other is still working 4 years later.
Jerry
On September 25, 2024, at 1:57 PM, Peter Knowlton <pqknowlton@...> wrote: So, I have an AC-34 HPEVS motor and a Curtis F6a controller. 48 volts. Eve LiFePo4 batteries. 3.2v and 280ah each. 16 of them. Have had them for three years in storage at 55-65 degrees. They were all 3.2v when I got them three years ago and 3.2 when I put them in the boat this spring. I have a JK BMS. Yesterday, for the first time, I put the boat in the water and they got their first true loads. ?The power is crazy and I have a 28000 lb ketch sailboat with a full keel. Had really good power, which made controlling the boat so much better. However, after 1/2 an hour tooling around at fairly low rpms the app on the JK BMS said cell/module #6 voltage was dying and after another 10 minutes it was down to nothing/zero volts. Still had enough to motor. Docked the boat and tied it up for the night. Went back the next morning, with a spare cell/module I had, and measured the voltage on #6. Had no volts. Nothing. Took it out and replaced it with a spare, which was reading 3.2v.? We were all set. Headed back out to the mouth of the harbor humming along at about 1500 rpms. After 20 minutes the motor sounded like it was losing power and sure enough it was. Opened the App and now two more cells were down to zero on the app and the Curtis display said Fault Code L23 - low battery voltage. Battery bank was down to 36v total. A slight caveat. I have a Honda 2200eu generator for when the battery runs down and I'm motoring and the batteries needs additional juice. Plugged the generator into the shore power outlet fired it up - and noticed that when I did that the motor actually lost a little power. At least that's what it seemed like to us. ?So, anyone have any experience losing cells/modules after they get put under loads and which showed 3.2v before.? Is it possible/likely that they simply are bad cells/modules? I originally bought 32 of them and it seems to me that losing 3 of them, when they've been in dry climate controlled storage, is not a good percentage of bad cells/modules. I have three more spares and will replace the ones that are reading zero voltage and see what happens. But I am, also, wondering if there is something I am doing, or not doing, to cause this? As I am new to this that is definitely a possibility but I don't know what I did, or didn't do to cause it. Seems like all the cells would be affected if I did something. Another thing to note is that I have a 24v battery bank for the house electronics that get their charge from the 48 volt bank, and I have a 12 volt battery bank that I use for the electric trolling motor for the dingy. All of theses cells/modules are, also, the same Eve cells that were bought at the same time as part of the same order.? I have used the 24 volt bank a little and used the trolling motor a few times. All of these cells are reading decent voltage and no cells/modules appear to be tanking in the 24v bank or the 12 volt bank. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. My first time doing this so I am trying to figure this stuff out as I go along.
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Peter Knowlton
South Dartmouth MA
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Re: Cells (modules) are dying.
Sounds like you didn’t balance them or charge them after you received them? Voltage is almost meaningless with LFP. You can have one cell at 25% SOC and another at 85% and they with both read 3.2 volts.?
The cells were probably fine. The ones that hit 0 volts may now be toast.?
Matt Foley
Sunlight Conversions? 1-201-914-0466
ABYC Certified Marine? Electrical Technician
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On Sep 25, 2024, at 2:57?PM, Peter Knowlton <pqknowlton@...> wrote:
? So, I have an AC-34 HPEVS motor and a Curtis F6a controller. 48 volts. Eve LiFePo4 batteries. 3.2v and 280ah each. 16 of them. Have had them for three years in storage at 55-65 degrees. They were all 3.2v when I got them three years ago and 3.2 when I put them in the boat this spring. I have a JK BMS. Yesterday, for the first time, I put the boat in the water and they got their first true loads. ?The power is crazy and I have a 28000 lb ketch sailboat with a full keel. Had really good power, which made controlling the boat so much better. However, after 1/2 an hour tooling around at fairly low rpms the app on the JK BMS said cell/module #6 voltage was dying and after another 10 minutes it was down to nothing/zero volts. Still had enough to motor. Docked the boat and tied it up for the night. Went back the next morning, with a spare cell/module I had, and measured the voltage on #6. Had no volts. Nothing. Took it out and replaced it with a spare, which was reading 3.2v.? We were all set. Headed back out to the mouth of the harbor humming along at about 1500 rpms. After 20 minutes the motor sounded like it was losing power and sure enough it was. Opened the App and now two more cells were down to zero on the app and the Curtis display said Fault Code L23 - low battery voltage. Battery bank was down to 36v total. A slight caveat. I have a Honda 2200eu generator for when the battery runs down and I'm motoring and the batteries needs additional juice. Plugged the generator into the shore power outlet fired it up - and noticed that when I did that the motor actually lost a little power. At least that's what it seemed like to us. ?So, anyone have any experience losing cells/modules after they get put under loads and which showed 3.2v before.? Is it possible/likely that they simply are bad cells/modules? I originally bought 32 of them and it seems to me that losing 3 of them, when they've been in dry climate controlled storage, is not a good percentage of bad cells/modules. I have three more spares and will replace the ones that are reading zero voltage and see what happens. But I am, also, wondering if there is something I am doing, or not doing, to cause this? As I am new to this that is definitely a possibility but I don't know what I did, or didn't do to cause it. Seems like all the cells would be affected if I did something. Another thing to note is that I have a 24v battery bank for the house electronics that get their charge from the 48 volt bank, and I have a 12 volt battery bank that I use for the electric trolling motor for the dingy. All of theses cells/modules are, also, the same Eve cells that were bought at the same time as part of the same order.? I have used the 24 volt bank a little and used the trolling motor a few times. All of these cells are reading decent voltage and no cells/modules appear to be tanking in the 24v bank or the 12 volt bank. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. My first time doing this so I am trying to figure this stuff out as I go along.
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Peter Knowlton
South Dartmouth MA
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Cells (modules) are dying.
So, I have an AC-34 HPEVS motor and a Curtis F6a controller. 48 volts. Eve LiFePo4 batteries. 3.2v and 280ah each. 16 of them. Have had them for three years in storage at 55-65 degrees. They were all 3.2v when I got them three years ago and 3.2 when I put them in the boat this spring. I have a JK BMS. Yesterday, for the first time, I put the boat in the water and they got their first true loads. ?The power is crazy and I have a 28000 lb ketch sailboat with a full keel. Had really good power, which made controlling the boat so much better. However, after 1/2 an hour tooling around at fairly low rpms the app on the JK BMS said cell/module #6 voltage was dying and after another 10 minutes it was down to nothing/zero volts. Still had enough to motor. Docked the boat and tied it up for the night. Went back the next morning, with a spare cell/module I had, and measured the voltage on #6. Had no volts. Nothing. Took it out and replaced it with a spare, which was reading 3.2v.? We were all set. Headed back out to the mouth of the harbor humming along at about 1500 rpms. After 20 minutes the motor sounded like it was losing power and sure enough it was. Opened the App and now two more cells were down to zero on the app and the Curtis display said Fault Code L23 - low battery voltage. Battery bank was down to 36v total. A slight caveat. I have a Honda 2200eu generator for when the battery runs down and I'm motoring and the batteries needs additional juice. Plugged the generator into the shore power outlet fired it up - and noticed that when I did that the motor actually lost a little power. At least that's what it seemed like to us. ?So, anyone have any experience losing cells/modules after they get put under loads and which showed 3.2v before.? Is it possible/likely that they simply are bad cells/modules? I originally bought 32 of them and it seems to me that losing 3 of them, when they've been in dry climate controlled storage, is not a good percentage of bad cells/modules. I have three more spares and will replace the ones that are reading zero voltage and see what happens. But I am, also, wondering if there is something I am doing, or not doing, to cause this? As I am new to this that is definitely a possibility but I don't know what I did, or didn't do to cause it. Seems like all the cells would be affected if I did something. Another thing to note is that I have a 24v battery bank for the house electronics that get their charge from the 48 volt bank, and I have a 12 volt battery bank that I use for the electric trolling motor for the dingy. All of theses cells/modules are, also, the same Eve cells that were bought at the same time as part of the same order.? I have used the 24 volt bank a little and used the trolling motor a few times. All of these cells are reading decent voltage and no cells/modules appear to be tanking in the 24v bank or the 12 volt bank. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. My first time doing this so I am trying to figure this stuff out as I go along.
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Peter Knowlton
South Dartmouth MA
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
Hello Charlie,
On my catamaran, I went to 96vdc, not center tapped.
If you are still trying to decide whether to stay 48vdc or go to 96vdc, there is another important consideration to keep in mind: at 48dvc (limit of the "safe to touch" voltage range as discussed earlier in this thread), the availability of electronic equipments is plentiful (MPPT chargers, inverters, AC-DC chargers, etc.). At 96vdc, there are far fewer products. At 144vdc and over, that's crazy hard to find things. I wrote about my electric propulsion system decision process here? and I cover this point in the section "Electric Voltage of the Propulsion System" section.
One small benefit of having a 96vdc power bank is that most electronic equipment working with a switching power supply designed to work from 110 to 240vdc will work fine with your 100vdc. My navigation computer system, the networking equipment, my CCTV, etc. aboard Escargot (systems considered critical to have on) are connected directly to the 96vdc bus, i.e. they continue to work even if the inverter is off. Switching power supplies first create DC from the AC input, then create high frequency AC, to finally lower the voltage and make it DC. Feeding them DC or AC makes no difference as long as they do not have a built in protection against that. But, that is getting quite out of topic regarding your?ME1616 initial topic, sorry. ;-)
Jerome
For you guys building the 96vdc setups:
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Is everyone considering doing a center tapped 96vdc/48vdc battery setup? Any other solution with a large 96v bank aboard seems difficult to charge with solar.
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Thanks!
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
It's not common to see a +48v/-48v bipolar power supply. But, charging a +96v/0v is no different than charging a +48v/-48v system. Isolated components (those that do not bond one rail or the other to its case and expect that to be the 0v reference/safety ground) work in either configuration. Non-isolated components are not suitable for use in a bipolar power supply system but work in a normal system. In either case, you still need the voltage difference to go up to ~116vdc to get a full charge. The same solar array configuration will work for both. Btw, I don't use two 48v chargers in series to get 96v, just isolated 96v chargers.?
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
For you guys building the 96vdc setups:
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Is everyone considering doing a center tapped 96vdc/48vdc battery setup? Any other solution with a large 96v bank aboard seems difficult to charge with solar.
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Thanks!
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
Yes, Volvo 120S. I'm hoping to get to it this winter.
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
I would be interested in seeing photos of sketches of the installation directly to the saildrive. Seems like this whole approachwould be potential install with a lot of interest.? there a re? lot of saildrives out there.? ?IS it a volvo saildrive?
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I removed the transmissions and am having a jackshaft made so that the motor's shafts are pointed up. I haven't built those yet though. My plan includes keeping the jackshaft bearings in an oil bath.
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
I removed the transmissions and am having a jackshaft made so that the motor's shafts are pointed up. I haven't built those yet though. My plan includes keeping the jackshaft bearings in an oil bath.
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
are you mating the ME1616s to the saildrives and keeping the transmission for FWD REV etc or going straight to the drive leg?
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
Ahhh make much more sense when i thnk about it like 240 and 120VAC. L1 L2 and N. then a case ground for 48vdc breakers etc?
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THANK YOU!
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
I installed one, but my boat is still on the hard, so I don't know how it will perform yet I bought a kit from thunderstruct_ev. They configured it for 96v. I bench tested it before putting in my boat and it ran as expected. My sailboat is 45', 13 tons. I plan to use 32 EVE prismatic cells @280 amp hours.
Anyone with ME1616 experience?
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I am planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available??
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I tend to believe only the most conservative numbers, so I saw a post in EV Europe listing it as 6kW continuous when run at 48V with 2000rpm listed. (assuming it cant go faster than 2000 rpm at 48VDC?)
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Here is the verbage:
- Power max 50kW@96V
- Power continuous 6kW@48VDC – 2000rpm – 12 kW@96VDC – 4000rpm
And the site:
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I would love to go to 96VDC but I do not think that is wise for all of the accessory systems on the boat and since i always find a way to arc something despite precautions.
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Any other 48vdc recommendations?? Thank you!!
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
Just a FB page for now:
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Bipolar DC power is common in many devices that have audio power amplifiers. The important specifics is that the components that attach are all isolated. That is, no assumption that the negative is going to be the ground connection. Electrically, it's the DC equivalent of the 240VAC Split Phase system we use in the US where we have 2 hots and a neutral that's created by a center-tapped transformer.?
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
Wow, Randy do you have a blog on this build?
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Sounds like its going to move with authority!
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I read up a bit but the internet quickly divulges into naysayers on the hot rail tapping threads. I would be very interested in understanding how this wiring works! Thanks!
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
ok so Dan I gave your Electric over hydraulic idea more thought and it could be a really good way to tip toe into going electric on this boat.? I like the small steps. I have been the 6month haulout guy before. I have been the 5yr refit guy. Once the sawzalls come out and the tent goes up the boat doesn't see the light of day for many moons. ;)
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I also posted this over in DIY electric car as a read a few hydraulic conversion threads there with folks using skid steers and tractors to go electric.
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Here is how i see it working:
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Aux propulsion setup. Catamaran, 56ft long 26,000lbs, 2.5'draft
It is already hydraulic.?
It has one 85hp engine, coupled to two hydraulic pumps(valved for FWD and REV), hosed to 2 gearmotors, bolted to saildrive propeller units.
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I would like to start small, as in just enough power and $$ to get the boat on and off of a dock in a clean smokeless fashion. I can run the diesel and its pumps when offshore for now.
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The current setup uses Parker/Denison gear motors bolted to the saildrive propeller units. (photo below) They move 28mL per revolution.(1.7cubic inches)?
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I thought that the simplest way to add an electric motor would be to do so at the engine, but alas the engine is directly coupled to the hydraulic pumps. I would need to decouple and put that on a clutch. Or remove the engine completely. If i remove the engine completely i need a big electric motor to run Two hydraulic pumps, so then i would rather just put smaller electric motors right at the final drives anyways. This is the end goal in a year or so. Just electric motors at the final drives. But for the short term i would like to get comfortable with electric drives, larger battery banks, larger solar etc before going purely electric.?
- So i bailed on that and decided to try to add small electric motors closer to the final hydraulic motors.?
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- The props get the boat moving well at 600-1000rpms, and there is a bit of reduction in the saildrives. So I figured that I would need to get these existing gearmotors to spin at about 800-1200rpms to get the boat to move. So thats around 10gpm max i would need from an auxiliary pump to do it. (At 1000rpm the existing gearmotors are spinning 28,000mL thats 7.3Gallons.)?
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So i have repaired excavator hydraulics and saw mill hydraulics, but am not very familiar with the tech as a whole.
- Can i just add a hydraulic pump Tee'd into the system as planned? If i add a tee, I will add a check valve, and then i need to decide where to pickup fluid from. Can I pull fluid through the whole system (cooler, old pumps, etc) via what is normally the fluid output line?-By teeing in upstream of the new checkvalve? (please see terrible sketch #1 alas i see no way to run this in REVERSE)
- Otherwise I can isolate the new system with solenoids (ref: terrible sketch #2)
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So if that above does work, then I just need a motor to spin it. I currently use 2000rpm on the diesel to run the whole kit at crusing speed. Thats 40kW, so 20kW per hull. I don't need to match that, Half of that or less is good for these auxillary units. So 10kW per hull.?
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So i found the ME0708 and all of its siblings. 48VDC & that seems to be ideal especially if i plan to go all electric in the future.?
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Now, lastly the power band for the ME0708, it likes to run at higher speeds, 2000-4000rpms. So I chose a bi-directional hydraulic gearpump that moves 1/3 the fluid as the current Parker/Denison gearmotors. That way my new pump spins 3x as fast. So the ME0708 can spin 2000-4000rpms.
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So I found an Honor Hydraulics gearpump, it moves 0.52 cubic inches per revolution (8.4mL plenty small) ?
Honor 2MM1U08. ?
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Also added a high pressure accumulator. There is no cooling as i hope to only use it for 10-20minutes at a time.
PARKER Diaphragm Accumulator: 10 cu in Fluid Volume, 10 cu in, 11 gpm Max. Flow
Item 6NZK0 Mfr. Model AD016B25T9A1
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So thats my tenative plan:
ME0708?
Sevcon 4q reversable controller?
Honor 8.4cc pump
tee's, solenoid valves, hoses.
lovejoy coupler.
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
I'm building a 96v as +48 & -48 dual hot rail system by tapping the middle of the battery for the safety ground. The boat is a converted Endeavour 34 catamaran and will have dual ME1616 motors on saildrives. There will be 4x 34S 280Ah LiFePO4 DIY batteries. Both positive and negative are hot and have their own disconnects (fuses, breakers, contactors and disconnect switches). Sevcon motor controllers, inverters, converters, chargers and solar charge controllers are 96v isolated versions so they work with the +-48v.?
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
good to know! Thanks Bob.
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Re: Anyone with ME1616 experience? planning to run one at 48VDC, what is the actual kW available? 6kW continuous?
48VDC is not as dangerous as 96VDC.
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There's obviously a lot more to it than that, but that's a simple summarization.
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Example: you can put your dry hands on 48VDC with little effect (one hand positive, one hand negative).? Don't try that with 96VDC.
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Randy Cain
bobkart