Re: cruising Amsterdam Canals
I’ve been using Motenergy motors on Sunshine for several years - I have Sevcon controllers. You can reach out to Motenergy for support.?
the motor mount/reduction pulleys supplied by ?works well - mine gave a reduction of 3:1 to get max prop RPM to 800.?
You’d be better off building an LFP battery using Winston (or equivalent) cells if it’s in your budget.?
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cruising Amsterdam Canals
dear knowledgeable members,
with pleasure I've been following this forum, with a special interest on electrifying my old steel open boat based in the Amsterdam canals. It's a 5,5m boat, just used to cruise the canals at a modest 5-6km/h (walking speed).?
I've ran into a second hand kit that may work great for me, just thought to reach out before I do something stupid (buy the wrong kit).?
The engine is a?Motenergy ME1003, though not brushless I see it mentioned onThunderstruck and the European version kit-elec-shop, and the controller?Alltrax SPM72400, that I can't find many references of.?
I'm hoping on advice to use these on a a boat, rather then in a cart. No salt water but always somewhat moist enviremont as there will always be (rain) water in the bilge.
I'm quite confident the engine is quite a good fit to my boat.?
The kit that I could but second-hand is including throttle, relais, reverse-relais, motor-frame and 8 Edrive AGM batteries, 6v 330ah. total 3500 euro, the controller and engine are about 1500 together as far as I could find online.?
Would still require some work on cabling and programming thought.?
Any thoughts??
Thanks from Amsterdam,
Elwin
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Re: Another Solar Electric Katamaran
One panel (100 W) weights 3.8 kg (8.4 pound?).
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Re: Another Solar Electric Katamaran
Hu Gunter, thanks for that information.? What is the weight for that brand/model of solar panel?
Background for that question: I'm looking at Renogy 175Wp panels, with a weight of 6.2 pounds.? Six of these would come to 1.05kWp and 37.2 pounds (before cabling, attaching, support structure, ...).? With my battery weight cost currently at 16 pounds per kWh, I'd need to cruise for well over two hours before the panels make sense compared to just brining more battery.? While we do frequently cruise that long, that calculation is assuming a full solar harvest, which is unlikely in the Pacific Northwest.? So the real 'in practice' number is probably more like three-four hours.? And with battery energy densities increasing beyond 180Wh/kg for LFP cells, that 16 pounds per kWh is more like 12 pounds per kWh, resulting in it making more sense to just bring more battery for all but the longest of cruises (over six hours).? Note that an extended tie-up time at some destination swings the result back towards panels.
My use case differs from yours of course.? I'm strictly about day cruises.? With your multi-day cruises, you can much more easily justify the added weight of panels, because your harvest duration is much longer.
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Re: Another Solar Electric Katamaran
The Voltage for propulsion is 24 V DC. The trolling outboards are Haswing Protruar 3.0, 1.44 kW, the bow thruster (for box maneuvers) is a Haswing Protruar 2.0, 960 W (Wattages are power input). The solarpanels are "offgridtec" lable (lable from Germany but for sure made in China). 10 pieces at 100 Wp each, 2 pieces at 50 W each. Batteries and additional electric components are from Victron energy (Netherland Design, made in India and China). 6 solar charge controller 100 V, 15 A each. 4 Batteries LiFePO4, 25.6 V, 100 Ah each (all over storage capacity about 10 kWh). Probably additional AGM Batteries (lead) at 12 V for different loads other than propulsion.
@bobkart and Phil Boyer: I've read most of your posts and seen most of your videos.?
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Re: Another Solar Electric Katamaran
Very nice, I built an 18' catamaran that uses a Torqeedo 2.0 Cruise with 1560 watts of panels charging a 10kw Lifep04 battery bank. I wish I had made it 20' for a bit more efficiency in cruising. Last year I did a 23 day trip all on solar electric power. I bought my batteries and solar panels from China and got a good price. Depending on what your tariffs are for China this certainly is a good option.
Phil
On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 11:09:14 a.m. EDT, Günter W?ckener <info@...> wrote:
I'm currently building a Cabin Kat, started 2017. 6,35 m LOA, 12 semi flexible Solarpanels on the roof. Two small electric Trolling motors (1.4 kW each) for propulsion a third one (0.9 kW) acting as bow thruster.
I hope, I will be able to launch her (in Berlin, Germany) this year for a test in a small river. The boat will be then in an incomplete state (regarding Interior furniture). May be I have to wait with the launch for next year . We will see.
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Re: Another Solar Electric Katamaran
Looks Good.? So everything (battery, motors) is/are 12VDC?? You didn't mention battery specs.
I'd be curious to know what model of flexible solar panels you're using.? Specifically, the watts-peak rating and weight.? I've been trying to make the case for adding panels on my cat, but the numbers aren't compelling enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvkUB6qncTg
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Re: Another Solar Electric Katamaran
I love the VW bus front paint scheme. I had a 1966 bus painted the same colors.
On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 10:48 AM Günter W?ckener < info@...> wrote: I'm currently building a Cabin Kat, started 2017. 6,35 m LOA, 12 semi flexible Solarpanels on the roof. Two small electric Trolling motors (1.4 kW each) for propulsion a third one (0.9 kW) acting as bow thruster.
I hope, I will be able to launch her (in Berlin, Germany) this year for a test in a small river. The boat will be then in an incomplete state (regarding Interior furniture). May be I have to wait with the launch for next year . We will see.
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Another Solar Electric Katamaran
I'm currently building a Cabin Kat, started 2017. 6,35 m LOA, 12 semi flexible Solarpanels on the roof. Two small electric Trolling motors (1.4 kW each) for propulsion a third one (0.9 kW) acting as bow thruster.
I hope, I will be able to launch her (in Berlin, Germany) this year for a test in a small river. The boat will be then in an incomplete state (regarding Interior furniture). May be I have to wait with the launch for next year . We will see.
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Re: My Solar/Electric Catamaran
Interesting. So if I took off the rudder and added a fairing, the fairing could act like a rudder?
Yes, I think it would, depending on the surface area.
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Re: My Solar/Electric Catamaran
Interesting. So if I took off the rudder and added a fairing, the fairing could act like a rudder?
Andy
On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 11:31:33 AM EDT, cpcanoesailor via groups.io <cpcanoesailor@...> wrote:
Lookin' good. I found that adding a plastic fairing around the motor's shaft greatly reduces the drag at higher speeds, so you get a higher top speed with the same motor and prop.?
I have a small trimaran, and the motor itself seems to cause more drag than the hulls. Your cat hulls are probably similar.
Curtis
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Re: My Solar/Electric Catamaran
Lookin' good. I found that adding a plastic fairing around the motor's shaft greatly reduces the drag at higher speeds, so you get a higher top speed with the same motor and prop.?
I have a small trimaran, and the motor itself seems to cause more drag than the hulls. Your cat hulls are probably similar.
Curtis
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My Solar/Electric Catamaran
I've been working on this project for a couple years and it's been 3 steps forward and 2 steps back but I'm getting close.
I made a video that shows my work, I hope you like it.
https://youtu.be/9-Vj_KaCn6Q
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Thanks Kev!
It is fun and getting better and better as we test changes and make improvements.
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toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Electrified Marine Enthusiasts!
I have been following threads here for several years, and being an engineer, entrepreneur, and boater, I have long wanted to do some disrupting in this area. This project started for me with the development of a Li battery system intended as a generator replacement in boats that use a lot of energy for things like AC, refrigeration, stabilization, etc. Well it morphed into something very different as you can see in this video:
This might not be something for everyone here to relate to, but I promise products are in the pipeline that more will.
Thanks for listening!
Jamie
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Hi Electrified Marine Enthusiasts!
I have been following threads here for several years, and being an engineer, entrepreneur, and boater, I have long wanted to do some disrupting in this area. This project started for me with the development of a Li battery system intended as a generator replacement in boats that use a lot of energy for things like AC, refrigeration, stabilization, etc. Well it morphed into something very different as you can see in this video:
This might not be something for everyone here to relate to, but I promise products are in the pipeline that more will.
Thanks for listening!
Jamie
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Re: Connectors question for electric outboard
I use a 20Ah, 48V eBike battery and custom built electric outboard to push my 23' sailboat around (a 2500lb?keelboat) and use Anderson connectors. You can also get rubber 'boots' for the connectors?to help protect them (I use these and can recommend them).
I have also tried a Hangkai with my boat and it worked well, though the throttle was awful (very sensitive). I cobbled?a fix, but beware.
On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 11:24?AM bobkart < couch45@...> wrote: You can also get SB50 / PP75 contacts that support 6AWG, 8AWG, or 10AWG without a bushing:
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Re: Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.
Hello Rob,
I went the easier (but more expensive route) of buying a DC genset (I settled on a Fischer Panda AGT 18000 --> 18KVA). I am running at 96VDC, and that was a 5% premium on top of their 48VDC catalog price.
The larger price tag compared to an equivalent power AC genset makes sense to me, as the rectifier box is an additional piece of equipment provided in the system. The rectifier diodes are water cooled (connected to the sea water circuit of the generator). If you were to go this path, you need to account for the space requirement for the rectifier box, and how you will route not only the electric wire, but the water cooling circuit. As you described, running the output of an AC generator to a DC charger is not practical for 10kW+, due to the lack of battery charger designed for that?much power. ? The advantage of the DC genset I see is that the output of the generator feeding the rectifier box is 3 phases AC. That means that the output of the rectifier box is a quite stable voltage. If you were to rectify a single phase AC, your DC voltage would drop to 0V around 120 times per second, so the current would do the same (when the rectified DC voltage is less than the battery voltage, no current flows from the generator to the battery or to the load).
Regarding your question on the?ME1616 motor, it is not a DC motor. The?ME1616 is a 3 phase AC motor. In traction mode, we use a motor controller that we feed DC to, and the controller creates the 3 phase AC to drive the motor at the RPM specified to the controller.
Cheers,
Jerome
On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 5:01?PM Robert McArthur < rjmcarthur@...> wrote: Dan (and anyone else who wants to explain!), Delving back a little... On Fri, 24 Mar 2023, 3:03 am Dan Pfeiffer, < dan@...> wrote:
I got a 2nd 12kW motor to use as a generator with a 3cyl Kubota diesel I have (18hp) but have not built the genset yet.? The diesel is very compact and I figured I could get a 10-12kW 48VDC generator from the combo.? After 2 seasons of use I think a smaller genset would do fine.? Maybe 5-6kW.? I could motor at decent cruising speed with that.?? Your use may be different.?? Genset info:
I just got a quote from one of the few marine DC genset places, and unfortunately it matches what I could find from the others - a new 16kW continuous 48V DC genset is about AU$28,000 or US$18,500. Not installed. Ouch!!
I see above Dan you thought about getting around it with a self-marinised bobtail, connected to a ME1616. I'm thinking of similar, but perhaps an already marinised Beta 20 connected to the ME1616 (another of which will be propulsion) since I am not particularly mechanically minded to self marinise.
Could you explain to a layman why, if using the ME1616, you would need rectifier or regulator? I thought the ME1616 already put out 48V DC (I presumed an actual 54V or so) with controller. Or would you replace the usual Thunderstruck kit controller with the rectifier and reg for the genset?
Since a brand new marinised kubota (Beta 20) could be less than US$8000, and the ME1616 is about US$1500, it looks about half the cost of buying a named brand 48V DC marine genset! Thoughts?
Another option for marinised is a Yanmar 3YM20. Neither though are a perfect rpm match for the ME1616 which is only (!) 12kW. But if I can spend US$10,000 for 12kW vs $18,500 for 16Kw then it seems a big win.
Rob
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Re: Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.
Hughes 35.5 ft sailboat. Ran several days, anchored at night. Had volt meter continually monitoring.? Slowed down when volts reduced, sped up when volts went up. Everything settled at 4.8 knots speed.
On Sun, Jun 4, 2023, 7:21 PM Dan Pfeiffer < dan@...> wrote:
Are you saying you can hold 4.8 knots at 2200 watts (2000+200)?? What are the boat specs?? Have you measured actual output from generator and solar??
On 2023-06-04 5:28 pm, reesekc wrote:
I'm presently using a 2kw generator (Harbor Freight) and a 48vdc golf cart charger. Also have 200 watts of solar power (12vdc in series for 24vdc with a boost controller to 48vdc). All of that is pretty cheep. But I can hold 4.8 knots all day long with the sun shining.?
On Sun, Jun 4, 2023, 6:03 PM Dan Pfeiffer < dan@...> wrote:
Is this a commercially available unit or something you put together?? That is a reasonable power output for continuous cruise on about a 10,000 lb monohull I think.
On 2023-06-01 11:23 am, jeremy baker via wrote:
I have a 4.5Kw,?48 volt,?alternator powered by a 8hp propane fueled engine. But no boat yet. Sigh?
?
On Thursday, June 1, 2023, 10:17 AM, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@...> wrote:
I have not built the genset yet.? It was suggested to me by one of the engineers at Thunderstruck that I could do it with the ME1616 with a rectifier and regulator.? But I have not researched it any further.?
I have a 3cyl 12kW Kubota diesel that was a removal from a new excavator converted to all electric.? It is not a marinized engine and I will need to sort that out but it doesn't seem too difficult.? Mostly to do with the heat exchanger and associated pumps and plumbing.? I may also need a belt drive to better match RPM's to get the desired output.? Direct drive would be preferred and the ME1616 is rated at 38.46 rpm/v so that's is in the ball park (57.2V @ 2200rpm).? Have to consider voltage drop through rectifier stages to get proper charging voltage input to regulator?? More research needed...
BUT, after running my electric drive for two seasons I don't know that I need such a large genset (10kW).? I could probably do with 5 or 6kW rather that 10.? See my reasoning here:
Perhaps as a general rule of thumb the genset capacity needed for reasonable continuous cruise at 75 to 85% of hull speed (for a monohull) you can do with 65 to 75% of the motor kW capacity needed to get to hull speed.? So if you need 10kW to get to hull speed that would be 5.5 to 6.5 kW gen set for reasonable continuous cruise.? By continuous cruise I mean maintaining desired speed without drawing down batteries.? For me that's 5.5 to 6 knots cruise.? From my observations I can do that at about 5kW.? But I always want to consider having sufficient headroom that I am not running any of the components at 100% to get the desired performance.?? That gets me to 6 or 7kW genset?? But 5kW would get me at a comfortable continuous cruise at 5 to 5.5 knots with headroom.?
My boat is a 12,500lb monohull with a 28.3ft waterline.?
My boat is a 5,700 kg monohull with a 8.6m waterline.
More details on my electric drive conversion here:
Dan Pfeiffer
On 2023-06-01 10:01 am, Robert McArthur wrote:
Dan (and anyone else who wants to explain!),
Delving back a little...
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023, 3:03 am Dan Pfeiffer, < dan@...> wrote:
I got a 2nd 12kW motor to use as a generator with a 3cyl Kubota diesel I have (18hp) but have not built the genset yet.? The diesel is very compact and I figured I could get a 10-12kW 48VDC generator from the combo.? After 2 seasons of use I think a smaller genset would do fine.? Maybe 5-6kW.? I could motor at decent cruising speed with that.?? Your use may be different.?? Genset info:
?
I just got a quote from one of the few marine DC genset places, and unfortunately it matches what I could find from the others - a new 16kW continuous 48V DC genset is about AU$28,000 or US$18,500. Not installed. Ouch!!
?
I see above Dan you thought about getting around it with a self-marinised bobtail, connected to a ME1616.
I'm thinking of similar, but perhaps an already marinised Beta 20 connected to the ME1616 (another of which will be propulsion) since I am not particularly mechanically minded to self marinise.
?
Could you explain to a layman why, if using the ME1616, you would need rectifier or regulator? I thought the ME1616 already put out 48V DC (I presumed an actual 54V or so) with controller. Or would you replace the usual Thunderstruck kit controller with the rectifier and reg for the genset?
?
Since a brand new marinised kubota (Beta 20) could be less than US$8000, and the ME1616 is about US$1500, it looks about half the cost of buying a named brand 48V DC marine genset! Thoughts?
?
Another option for marinised is a Yanmar 3YM20. Neither though are a perfect rpm match for the ME1616 which is only (!) 12kW. But if I can spend US$10,000 for 12kW vs $18,500 for 16Kw then it seems a big win.
?
Rob
?
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Re: Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.
Are you saying you can hold 4.8 knots at 2200 watts (2000+200)?? What are the boat specs?? Have you measured actual output from generator and solar??
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2023-06-04 5:28 pm, reesekc wrote:
I'm presently using a 2kw generator (Harbor Freight) and a 48vdc golf cart charger. Also have 200 watts of solar power (12vdc in series for 24vdc with a boost controller to 48vdc). All of that is pretty cheep. But I can hold 4.8 knots all day long with the sun shining.?
On Sun, Jun 4, 2023, 6:03 PM Dan Pfeiffer < dan@...> wrote:
Is this a commercially available unit or something you put together?? That is a reasonable power output for continuous cruise on about a 10,000 lb monohull I think.
On 2023-06-01 11:23 am, jeremy baker via wrote:
I have a 4.5Kw,?48 volt,?alternator powered by a 8hp propane fueled engine. But no boat yet. Sigh?
?
On Thursday, June 1, 2023, 10:17 AM, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@...> wrote:
I have not built the genset yet.? It was suggested to me by one of the engineers at Thunderstruck that I could do it with the ME1616 with a rectifier and regulator.? But I have not researched it any further.?
I have a 3cyl 12kW Kubota diesel that was a removal from a new excavator converted to all electric.? It is not a marinized engine and I will need to sort that out but it doesn't seem too difficult.? Mostly to do with the heat exchanger and associated pumps and plumbing.? I may also need a belt drive to better match RPM's to get the desired output.? Direct drive would be preferred and the ME1616 is rated at 38.46 rpm/v so that's is in the ball park (57.2V @ 2200rpm).? Have to consider voltage drop through rectifier stages to get proper charging voltage input to regulator?? More research needed...
BUT, after running my electric drive for two seasons I don't know that I need such a large genset (10kW).? I could probably do with 5 or 6kW rather that 10.? See my reasoning here:
Perhaps as a general rule of thumb the genset capacity needed for reasonable continuous cruise at 75 to 85% of hull speed (for a monohull) you can do with 65 to 75% of the motor kW capacity needed to get to hull speed.? So if you need 10kW to get to hull speed that would be 5.5 to 6.5 kW gen set for reasonable continuous cruise.? By continuous cruise I mean maintaining desired speed without drawing down batteries.? For me that's 5.5 to 6 knots cruise.? From my observations I can do that at about 5kW.? But I always want to consider having sufficient headroom that I am not running any of the components at 100% to get the desired performance.?? That gets me to 6 or 7kW genset?? But 5kW would get me at a comfortable continuous cruise at 5 to 5.5 knots with headroom.?
My boat is a 12,500lb monohull with a 28.3ft waterline.?
My boat is a 5,700 kg monohull with a 8.6m waterline.
More details on my electric drive conversion here:
Dan Pfeiffer
On 2023-06-01 10:01 am, Robert McArthur wrote:
Dan (and anyone else who wants to explain!),
Delving back a little...
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023, 3:03 am Dan Pfeiffer, < dan@...> wrote:
I got a 2nd 12kW motor to use as a generator with a 3cyl Kubota diesel I have (18hp) but have not built the genset yet.? The diesel is very compact and I figured I could get a 10-12kW 48VDC generator from the combo.? After 2 seasons of use I think a smaller genset would do fine.? Maybe 5-6kW.? I could motor at decent cruising speed with that.?? Your use may be different.?? Genset info:
?
I just got a quote from one of the few marine DC genset places, and unfortunately it matches what I could find from the others - a new 16kW continuous 48V DC genset is about AU$28,000 or US$18,500. Not installed. Ouch!!
?
I see above Dan you thought about getting around it with a self-marinised bobtail, connected to a ME1616.
I'm thinking of similar, but perhaps an already marinised Beta 20 connected to the ME1616 (another of which will be propulsion) since I am not particularly mechanically minded to self marinise.
?
Could you explain to a layman why, if using the ME1616, you would need rectifier or regulator? I thought the ME1616 already put out 48V DC (I presumed an actual 54V or so) with controller. Or would you replace the usual Thunderstruck kit controller with the rectifier and reg for the genset?
?
Since a brand new marinised kubota (Beta 20) could be less than US$8000, and the ME1616 is about US$1500, it looks about half the cost of buying a named brand 48V DC marine genset! Thoughts?
?
Another option for marinised is a Yanmar 3YM20. Neither though are a perfect rpm match for the ME1616 which is only (!) 12kW. But if I can spend US$10,000 for 12kW vs $18,500 for 16Kw then it seems a big win.
?
Rob
?
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Reuben Trane
Günter W?ckener
bobkart
cpcanoesailor
Jamie Schlinkmann